Morning Sitting.

Otago Witness, Issue 1418, 25 January 1879, Page 8

Morning Sitting.

The Synod resumed their transactions on Friday morning in the lecture-hall adjoining the Fhrat Church. THE BIBLE IN SCHOOLS. The consideration of this question was resumed. The Rev. Dr Stuart did not think there was any necessity for the Synod to enter into a fuller discussion of the matter. Mr Will had entered into it very fully and clearly the previous evening. They were at one as to the importance of religious instruction in schools, although there might be a difference of opinion as to when the commencement of such an agitation was timeous. It seemed to him that all that was wanted was the appointment of a committee to watch over the overture and report during the year.— (Hear, hear.) Mr Fitzgerald protested against our present system being branded as godless, and was prepared to move that the overture be not adopted. What was it they were asking for ? They were asking simply for the reading of the Bible in public schools. If they had asked for religious instruction, if they had asked for religious education, it would have been worth asking for. But he questioned if this reading of the Bible was of such value as to cause them to seek to overturn what had so recently been built up. He would not for a moment place the reading of the Bible on the same level as the reading of any other book. He could not forget what he had learned in his younger days — that the reading (only in this case it was the preaching) of the Word might become the effectual means of salvation.— (Hear, hear,) There was little value to be attached to the reading of the Word of God, especially with the pressure of work that existed in our public schools nowadays. There would be a sore temptation to the teacher — aye, even to the Christian teacher— to perform this reading of the Bible in a very perfunctory manner. With all due deference, he was afraid that if this reading of the Bible were to be regarded as giving religious instruction, their teachers would be satisfied with it as such ; that parents would be satisfied— nay, that the Church would be satisfied, and that was the greatest evil of all. The Church was alive to the necessity for tbe religious education of the young, aud he hoped she might long remain alive to it, and become more and more so. But he was afraid that if she was to regard the reading of the Bible as religious instruction, the time would come when she would rest satisfied with it. Rather than run the risk of this, he would prefer that this question had never been raised at all. The duty of school teachers, of whom he was one, was to look after the cultivation of the intellect of the pupils — it was to teach them to think, and to store their minds with information, and to give them facility in applying that information. This they would do as faithfully as they possibly could. They would go further— they would assist the Church in the formation of character. — (Hear, hear.) The Key Mr Watt seconded the amendment pro forma. Mr J. Reid was afraid that those who were opposed to the overture entirely misapprehended the purpose of it, which was to consolidate a national system of education — to secure the permanency of our present system. They had had it stated in the Press, and in other ways, that there was no danger in the present system. But there was danger, and he thought it was high time that the Synod should let it be known, with no uncertain sound, what their views were with reference to teaching in schools. It had been stated at Mr Stout's public meeting that those who declared Mr Curtis' bill sought to. introduce denominationalism did so in .ignorance. Surely this was tampering with the gullibility of" the public. He held ia his hand a copy of Hansard, from which he would read a quotation to show that Mr Curtis really did intend to introduce denominationalisin. The following were the words of Mr Curtis in introducing his bill in 1878 :— " I am told that, indirectly, we assist denominational education — that is to say, that in schoolhouses instruction will probably be given in religious doctrine. I have no doubt that that will be the case." He held that the reading of the Bible in schools, even without religious instruction, would be a power in the Bchools — (Applause.) It had also been stated at the public meeting in question that three-fourths of the teachers would declare that bible reading in schools had been a failure. He held that to be a libel.— (Applause.) He had taught schools in England and Scotland, in the North Island of this Colony, and also in the South Island. During the greater part of this time he had taught the Bible in schools, and he had never found that Bible-teaching was a failure j indeed, he had always found it to be most successful. It was easy to make declarations of this kind in public and do it in ignorance. He had been mixed up with teachers for the laßt 25 years, and he was sure that not Bix per cent, of teachers would endorse Mr Stout's statement. Mr Fitzgerald: I would just like to ask one questior., atid on the answer to that question will depend the withdrawal of my amendment or not. Does this* overture Beck to establish religious instruction, or does it seek simply to establish Bible-reading ? because in our debate we must distuiynisjj. between the W,

The Rev. Mr Will : Ife seeks religious instruction as far as it can. Mr Fitzgerald : Then, Mr Moderator, I beg to withdraw my proposal. The Rev. Mr Bannerman : I should like to ask what part of the overture explains that it seeks to establish religious instruction?— (Hear, hear.) That id not my reading of the overture. The Rev. Mr Will : It does not state those specific words. It does not state any mora than the reading of the Bible. But the meaning of the overture ia for religious instruction, though it may not be expressed in those words. The Moderator agreed. , The Rev. Mr Banneiuian : We must form our own interpretation. It is not for the Moderator to state what the object of the overture is. The Moderator : The overture speaks for itself. . . Mr Fitzgerald : It must be borne in mind that I based what I said on the understanding that this overture seeks only on the face of it to establish Bible-reading. If it is understood by the Synod as seeking more, I must withdraw my proposal. Mr Reid : We consider Bible-readmg to be religious instruction. The Rev. Mr Will : There is no doubt that in Bible-reading we shall give the best instruction out of the Bible we possibly can. Mr Begg said the Bible would be made a text book of, and the children would be asked questions on it as they would be on any ordinary book. The Rev. Mr Watt : Bible instruction should be included in it. The Moderator : Let me understand, Mr Watt, if you have withdrawn your seconding of the amendment pro forma ? The Rev. Mr Watt : No, I have not. The Moderator : Then the amendment is still before the House. The Rev. Mr Watt believed that if the Presbyterian Church, which had always been allied to a national system of education, adopted the system proposed, [she would strengthen the hands of the denominationalists, and would bring in denominational education. Mr Will, and those who had spoken on his side, were far more sanguine than he was, that out of the wreck of the national system, and the coming in of denoininatipnalism, there would emerge again the national Bystem. He held with Mr Fitzgerald that the good that would be done by the mere reading of the Bible in schools would not be outweighed by the evil. Of two evils he would choose the less. The Rev. Mr Sutherland advocated the present system being given a fair trial. He held that the action of the Symod was premature. If there had been anything in the shape of hostility to religion, or any indifference, he would have thought it was time enough to take some action. Of course the Victorians were perfectly justified in taking the action they bad, because the Government of that Colony had broken faith with the people. He thoroughly agreed with Mr Fitzgerald that if the teachers were asked to confine themselves to the reading of God's Word, parents would be satisfied and the Church would be satisfied. He looked upon it in this light : Let them coneider our population. It was such a diverse one— there was such a variety of creeds and nationalities represented in it. The ultimate advantages of reading the Bible in schools were nothing as compared to the advantages to be derived from the welding of a heterogenous mass into a homogeneous mass, He would like to see the Bible aa a textbook if all would consent to it, but the Roman Catholics would not consent to it. In fact, the Roman Catholics Baid : "If you read your Bible in school, we won't sent our children. If you read no Bible at all, then your system is a godless system, and we cannot send our children," But there could be no doubt that the efforts of the Roman Catholics in the cause of education were of the noblest kind, x and were worthy of imitation by the other Churches in the Colony. He repeated that it was his intention to support the amendment, in order to give the present system a fair trial.— (Hear,hear.) The Rev. C. S. Ross also spoke. The Rev. Mr Bannebman could not support the adoption of the overture, nor yet could he vote for the amendment. He could not vote for the overture, because it contained statements which he was unable to confirm from his own knowledge— statements, moreover, which had not been confirmed by any member of tbe House. For instance, one clause referred _to all mention of God and a future state being omitted. So far as he was acquainted with the education as Riven in our schools, this was not the case. He thought that in almost every book used in school there were references to God and a future state. He could not, therefore, hold that this clause was correct and ought to be adopted. For the same reason he considered that it was not right and proper to give a description of the education given in this Colony as a godless education, aa stated in the third paragraph of the overture. It was not of a godless character.— (Hear, hear.) The education given by a godly man could not be of a godless character— (applause)— and amongst our teachers there were godly men, who, by their influence and example, were favouring and encouraging the godly upbringing of the young. For all this, he considered that our schools were conducted on a comparatively ungodly system. Prayer to God was not admissible in our schools any more than the reading of God's Word, and so long as that was the case our schools would be of a com paratively ungodly character. He held that the character of the schools would be materially altered for the better if they were opened with prayer aud the reading of God's Word from the lips of the teacher. The Word of God, properly read, was of more influence in conveying a knowledge of what the Bible taught than many of the commentaries given from their pulpits. As to this subject being altogether premature, he had only to ask, was it ever premature that they should do what was right?— (Applause.) Now was the time, and he, as one who had came largely into contact with heads of families in this Colony, was prepared to say that 99-100ths of them would advocate the restoration of the Bible in school.— (Applause.) He moved as an amendment that the discussion on this overture be adjourned, aud that in the meantime a committee be appointed to frame a resolution expressive of the mind of the Synod on the overture. —(Applause. ) The Rev. Mr Boreie seconded. The Rev. Mr Bannerman'u amendment was carried, and the following gentlemen were appointed as a committee : — The Moderator, the Revs. Dr. Stuart, Kirkland, Will, Bannerman, and MessrH Reid, Fitzgerald, and Chisholm, the Moderator beiDg convener. NEW ADMISSIONS. The Rev. Mr Suruvuero was admitted iufco the Church as an ordained minister, and Mr Lothian as a probationer. The Rev. Mr Treadwell, of Wanganui, was introduced to the Synod, and wap directed to be associated with future scderuuts. CHURCH ERECTION AND PROPERTY, Sir A. C. Begg read the following report of the Committee on Church Erection and I'roperty :— The Coruinittuo bc£ to report that tho particulars '

relative to grants in aid of church-building sanctioned by the Synod have been considered, and the amounts fixed by the Committae, in accordance) with the ro^u latione, are as follows :—

In accordance with resolution of Synod, directing interpretation of Regulation 4. "To regard yes>try accommodation as mc uded under chinch sittings," the Ccminitteo amended gi'anls already passed, as follows : — 1. Otepopo, amount formerly passed £1050, increase £120, in all £1170. 2. Kaitangaia, amount formerly passed £608, increate £140, in all £740 3. Inch Olutha, amount formerly passed £632, increase £138, ia all £770. 4 Palmerston, amount formerly passed £1311, increase £132, in all £U43. The Committe contiideved the pUns and specifications for removal and alteration of manse at Switzers, remitted to it by the Synod ; also, estimate of expense, and sanctioned the grant of £300 out of the Ecclesiastic il Fund which was applied for, The attention of the Synod has been repeatedly called to the fact tint the amount of the grants for churches already sanctioned would exhaust the income of the fund for several years to come. The long delay thus occasioned in the payment of the grants has been keenly felt by many congregations. During the past year, through tue heavy losses caused by disastrous floods, some of tho cungregaiionß have been placed under special difficulty in struggling with the burden of debt. Under the>u circumstances, the Committee agreed to recoumwnd to the Synod, as they now do, to request and authorise the Church Board of Property of otago to borrow, on the security of the Mante Kejtrve Fund, a sum of money not exceeding fifteen thousand pounds (£ls 0'jO), with the view of paying without delay the giants that have been, or may be, sanctioned by the Synod. They further agree to recommend that the balance of the grants Eanctioned by the Synod in 1876 be paid without deduction ; that one year's interest, at eight per cent., be deducted from those sanctioned in 1877 ; two years' interest from those sanctioned in 1878 j and three years' interest from those that may be sanctioned in 1879. In the eveot of the proposal being carried out, they recommend that the rules nowinforco bo observed in all cesej, unless the Synod see fit to except Balclutha, requiring that the congregation shall raise the amount necessary for paying off its debt beforo receiving payment in full of the grant voted by the Synod. They would also suggest that the payments of the grants be made by the Treasurer under the direction of this Committee. Tne Committee believe that Presbyteries and Sessions have felt difficulty in securing site^ for churches and manses when they were likely to be required, owing to the delay in receiving tbe money from this fund, a s this difficulty will be removed if the Committee's proposal is carried out, the Committee suggest the attention of Presbyteries and Sessions bo again directed to this matter. The Comuattee learn that the lists of sections secured for church purposes in the hands of the Treasurer are still incomplete, and recommend that these should be completed as early as possible. Ihe recommendation of Synod to p ace title-deeds under the custody of the Treasurer has been followed by some, but the security thus afforded should induce others to avail themselves of this provision. James Copland, Convenor. The following deliverance was carried unanimously :— " Adopt the report; approve of the diligence of the Committee ; record^ the thanks of the Synod to the Committee, and especially to the Convener; agree to the borrowing of such sums as suggested in the report ; request and authorise the trustees to carry out the recommendations of the report to borrow said sum on the security of the Manse Reserve Fund ; sanction the payment of grants in terms of the report ; relieve Balclutha from the necessity of paying its quota in order to obtain the grant sanctioned ; authorise the Committee to purchase sites in townships and districts opened for settlement ; instruct deaconb' courts to inform the treasurer what property belongs to them severally, and recommend tuem to commit their title-deeds to the care of the treasurer for safe keeping.'^ The report of the Temperance Committee having been read, the Synod concluded their morning sederunt.

.. Green Island . . !. Tapunui(for Debt, Reg. 10) .. I. Kaveusbourne .. .. : Gumuiie's J3u6h .. „ i AUxaadra £1220 114 170 150 363