The General Assembly. [By Telegraph.]

Otago Witness, Issue 1342, 18 August 1877, Page 8

The General Assembly. [By Telegraph.]

Wellington, August 9th. In the Legislative Council, The business was chiefly in Committee on several Bills,

In the House last evening,

The House went into Committee on the Charitable Institutions Bill, and considerable discussion ensued upon clause 3, which provides for the incorporating of institutions. Great objections were taken by Sir G. Grey and Messrs Rees and Stout, on the ground that there was no limit to the number of institutions which might be started, and which the Government could not refuse to subsidise ; also, that any 50 persons subscribing could have any hospital in the Colony vested in them. Mr liolleston moved an amendment providing that the Bill should not apply to existing institutions supported wholly or in part by public fund*. Mr B»own (Ashley) moved — " That the Chairman leave the chair." Several speakers supported the proposal, and after » long discussion, A division was taken, and The motion was lose by 34 to 27The discussion was continued, and when Mr Gisborne moved an amendment, by which the Bill was to be made to apply to institutions half supported by private contributions, the other half being provided by the Government, A desultory debate followed, and eventually The motion that progress be reported, with leave to sit again, was carried. The House adjourned at 12.10 a.m.

In the House this afternoon, Sir George Grey presented a petition signed by over 1400 persons of his district, praying for some alteration in the licensing laws, to prevent intemperance. Mr Cox asked when it was intended to call tenders for the completion of the railway from Ngeruawahia to Hamilton, thence to Ohaupo ? The Hon. Mr Ormond said the necessary papers were being prepared, and tenders would be called shortly. In reply to Mr Taiaroa, The Premier said the Government did not intend to bring in a Bill to amend the Native Schools Act, 18G6.

In reply to Mr Barff, The Premier said the Government had taken steps for the formation of two Schools of Mines — one in Canterbury, and one in Oiago. Papers would be laid on the table to-morrow.

Mr Stout asked— (l) Whether the Chief Sur veyor of Otago Provincial District furnished any report to the Government of the cost of engineering aud road expenses in Otago under the Provincial system ? (2) Whether the Government will prepare a table showing the increased cost of maintenance and management of main arterial roads under the County management to what they were under the Provincial system. (3) Whether the Government will prepare and lay before the House a return showing the amounts paid by County Councils as salaries to chairmen, clerks, engineer.., and treasurers to Counties, also the amount of uonorarium and travelling expenses paid to County Council members. The Premier said tLe Chief Surveyor had been written to, and as soon a3 his report was received it would te laid upon the table. In reply to the second question, he was not aware of an increased cost, and if the hon. gentleman had information to that effect, the Government would be glad to get it. To the third, they would furnish a return as soon as obtained. First readings in "iledical Practitioners Amending Bill, Wellington Reserves Bill, Auckland Grammar School Leasing and Exchange Bill.

A Select Committee was appointed to enquire into the be. a s means of establishing the manu facture of beet sugar. Mr Brown (Ashley) moved for a Committee to (enquire into ana report upon the present system of management of tbe railways of the

Colony. He expected the Government would derive great assistance from such a Committee.

The Hon. Mr Ormond had no objection, but he would move to make the Committee larger.

Committees were appointed to enquire into the Sheep and Cattle Bill and the Fencing and Impounding Bills, The adjourned debate on Mr Maeandrew's resolution re the construction of several railways in Otago Provincial district was re sumed.

Mr Bastings thought it would be a good thing to refer the whole matter to a select committee for them to devise some plan where by these lines could be constructed, as the Government had announced their intention to bring down a Bill to enable branch railways to be constructed. He would move the adjournment of the debate.

Mr Header Wood, while concurring in all that had been urged by the proposer of the resolutions, said there were fatal objections to the plan. There was no money, and if the money were raised out of the land, there was still no local body who could carry out the work.

Mr Macandrew had no objection to the adjournment, as be was most anxious to see the Bill the Government had for the construction of branch railways.

The debate was adjourned till Thursday next.

Mr Rees movsd that the returns be laid before the House of all lands, the conveyance of which in fee simple by native owners, the assent of the Governor had been given to during the last 12 years. Mr Gisborne moved — " That the Goldfields Committee be instructed to report what rewards should be authorised by the House to be offered in the North aud South Islands, and on what terms, for the discovery of payable goldfields, and what steps should be taken for the encouragement for prospecting for gold and other precious minerals."

Mr Barff, in seconding, said the motion was not a goldfields question at all, but one which interested the Colony. Nothing, he thought, tended more to increase the population of the Colony so much as the discovery of new goldfields, and a few thousands spent yearly in that direction Avould lead to large and permanent benefits. He instanced the case of the Kumara as one in which a reward should be paid. The County Council had passed a motion to that effect, but looked to the Government to pay it, as they had no money.

Mr Joyce pointed out there were about two million acres of unexplored ground in the South Island where even the rivers in it were not laid down upon the maps, and they could not hope t j have that explored without some substantial inducement. That country might be found of incalculable value. He had reason to believe that gold had been found in the South Island, but was not divulged, in hopes that a reward would be offered.

The motion was agreed to. Mr Rees moved that a Select Committee be appointed to enquire whether telegraph officials peruse telegrams with the view of altering or amending the same without the consent of the sender. He held they had done this for some time past, and that they onght not be allowed to do so.

The Hon. Mr M'Lean was very glad the matter was brought forward, but he suggested as an amendment the addition of words to the effect that the Committee bs also instructed to define what should be accepted as Press telegrams. The motion was agreed to,

Mr Sharp moved that a resolation requesting the Government to grant free passes on the railways be rescinded. He thought members of the House, after having free passages to and from the session, should relapse in-to the position of private individuals. He believed the free pass system had been much abused.

Dr Wallis, who seconded it, said the action of the House last session in increasing their honorarium was a scandal to the community. So was the granting of free passes. Some gentlemen, he believed, who lived within a few miles from town, used these passes regularly instead of paying. Messrs Joyce, Morris, and Murray opposed. The debate was interrupted by 5.30.

August 10th.

In the Lesislative Council,

In replying to the Hon. Dr Menzies, Dr Pollen said bo could give no answer at present as to whether the Government would, during the present session, bring in a Bill to amend the Counties Act, 1876. As soon as he had any information on the subject he would gladly give it to his friend privately. The only other business was several Bills being read a tnird time.

The House resumed at 7.30.

Mr Fox, in moving the second reading of the Lccal Option Bill, expressed his deep obligations to Mr Stout for having allowed him to occupy the post of honour this session, after having successfully carried, last session, his Local Option Bill to the second reading. He said the cause he was advocating was the cause of the poor man— the preventing of him from destroying happy homes. In consequence of his having been able to bring forward his Bill 30 early this session, he was unable to lay before them a number of petitions in favour of the Bill, but, from advices received, he was able to say there were 15,000 signatures to the petitions in favour of the Bill on their way to the House. The hon. gentleman said the Bill was not new, and after detailing his past efforts in the same direction, s*id tbe principle of it had been five times ratified by the House. Thi?, to a great extent, rendered it un?:ecessary to debate the question. Was it not recorded in Hansard, all, or nearly all, he could say upon the question ? Hon. members had been mystified in considering the question as much larger than it really was ; indeed, the principle of the Bill waj very simple ; but if carried out, it would be fcund to be a great social reform. In England and other countries the trade of dealing in alcoholic liquors was regarded as dangerous t-> the State, and it was surrounded with as many barriers as possible to lessen the evils of it. There waa constant agitation and legislation going on against it, and yet the gigantic evils arising from it remained. There were 400 Acts of Parliament made in Great Britain to deal with the evils arising from the liquor traffic, and more laws were still beißg passed every session, no fewer than 12 being likely to be passed this year at home. This showed that legislation did no good now. What he proposed was to go upon an entirely different plan. Their plan was — Prevention is better than cure. Do as Pliinsoll did in pr-eventir.g poor sailors being drowned. Get the authorities to prevent rotten ships going to sea. Do as a sensible man would do when he had a savage dog : Chain him up, aud not go about with a piece of diachylon plaster, patching up the wounds made by the dog. They proposed, instead of putting the policemen's eye to work, to place the people's eye to watch the evils. At present the liquor traffic in the Colony was a gigantic monopoly. No one dare sell except those fortunate enough to be able to obtain a license ; then those who had power to granc these licenses had, in most cases, not the slightest sympathy with the districts in which ' they licensed the houses. The Justices had the

power to thrust upon the people liquor selling places without their consent. All the Justices had to do was to decide whether the applicant was a fit person to be granted a license, and whether the district wanted a house. Well, that latter power he proposed to deprive them of, and leave it with the men and women of a, district to say whether they wanted a licensed house amongst them. There was nothing in that to shake the fabric of society, or tear their constitution to tatters. This principle had been affirmed by the House before, but when his Bill was in Committee, hon. members who were new to the question then, as ho was himself, so mangled his poor Bill as to destroy all the usefulness it was originally hoped it would accomplish. The hon. member here rsad a memo, he sent to Dr Pollen after that Bill was passed, making certain recommendations with regard to defining districts, so as to bring in the principle of two-thirds of tho people controlling the issue of licenses, but they had not seen that his recommendations were carried out as they might have been. The instructions issued to the magistrates with regard to denning districts were copied out in some instances by making districts so large ihat it was impossible to obtain the signatures. One district in Auckland (Wairoa) was 100 miles one way by 50 miles another. Well, notwithstanding the obvious difficulties that interposed, a Temperance Society, at considerable expense, managed to canvass that immense district, but they did not succeed in getting more than half the signatures of the people, and yet there were various portions of that large district in which the people were unanimously in favour of shnttingup the public-houses. This was onlyatypical instance : there were many others. Well, the Bill dia not propose to alter these districts, but it proposed to give Chairmen of Licensing Boards power to declare, pro hoc vice, a aubdistrict to meet the emergency. There was no instance, he believed, in which a principle was laid down by legislation, and no machinery provided to carry out this. It was the second point on which his Act tailed, because the people themselves bad to cenduct the canvass. What he now proposed was the machinery of the State should be used to place a ballot paper at every man's door, and collect them again, by which the residents might say whether a license should or should not be granted. To come to another point, he saw no reason why the great constitutional principle of majority, to matter how small, having effect. Instead of the two-thirds they asked five years ago, why not make the majority rule with regard to the principles of the Bill as much as in their own elections, and their system of voting in the House, where they might turn out a Ministry by a majority of one ; and their point was that every person, man or womin, 21 years of age, should have a vote. It was essentially a woman's question, and why should they not have some share in putting down the gigantic evils of drink, which Sir Chas. Burton, the philanthropist, though a brewer, said that if all the horrors of war, pestilence, and famine were Bummed up they would amount to nothing as compared with the awful evils that had arisen from drink. He claimed for women to be able to give a Sounder vote than men in any case where moral reform was concerned. That was proved a hundred times over in America. Before concluding, he desired to say something regarding a few objections he knew would be raised against the Bill. It would probably be called unconstitutional to take the vote of the people on a matter of this kind— whether, in fact, such an act should be brought into operation or not. • It was plebiscite they would say, call it Napoleonic, but what cared he if it were Napoleonic. What was in a name, when, as against it was to be balanced the good of the State, the welfare of the people at large ? The question was one of the vastest' importance, as hon. gentlenien knew, and one which had for centuries demanded tho attention of the Imperial Parliament. The hon. gentleman then referred to what he called dragging a red herring across the seent — the cry of compensation, and the idea was maintained by many very worthy men. He had no desire to deal unfairly with publicans, but what was he to be compensated for? He lost nothing, his license was granted only for twelve months, and when that time expired, he had no claim upon them, Then they were told that there was an understanding; but with whom? Not with the people, who signed petitions to put down intemperance. Then the only person he could have an understanding with was tho Licensing Bench. You compensated a person for loss of property, but not for privileges. There never was an instance in England of compensation of anything of thai kind, unless it wa3 a life monopoly or something of that sort. He maintained that a publican had hi 3 compensation beforehand in the monopoly he enjoyed, and the opportunity for making enormous profits. There 1 waa nothing taken from the publican but his yearly license. His liquor was not taken from his house, if they were to be paid compensation, he would like a statement of accounts to be made out between the publicans and the people, and the balance struck. In that case he would say, in the words of an English Judge, that for centuries publicans had filled our gaols, lunatic asylums, poor houses, hospitals, and penitentiaries. On that basis he would close accounts with the publicans, and let it be said then on which side the balance was. The hon. member, in conclusion, implored the tiouse in the name of all that was holy to carry his Bill through its second read ing, and then watch it in Committee,' so that it might not be torn to tatters, as his Bill of 1873. Let them do this, and help to make the Colpny grow up a sober, happy, and prosperous nation. — (Loud applause followed the speech.) Dr Wallis, although an advocate of temperance, could not vote for a Bill which simply meant confiscation of a class of property that grew up under the law. Not a word as to compensation was in the Bill. It was a premature measure.

Mr Fisher had opposed the Bill last year, and would oppose the present one. Mr Manders opposed the Bill on the ground that it was unwise to place the power to vote in the hands of women in the way contemplated by the Bill. It was the law in this Colony, as well as in the others, that publicans had a right to the renewal of their licenses if they conducted their houses properly and furnished the required accommodation, and the arbitrary way in which the Bill proposed to d^al with those rights waa most unjust. The Hon. Mr Bowen said last year he voted against the Local Option Bill, but he could not but recognise the many hardships that arose frcm thrusting houses upon people who did not want them. He had come to think that in the case of licensing new houses, the option should be left to the people of the neighbourhood, but beyond that he would not like to go ; and if people wanted to get rid of existing houses, he had no objection if they paid sufficient compensation to the publican whose means of living were taken away. It was against the interests of society to keep the publican in yearly terror of losing his license, which would deprive him of inducements to make his house a good hotel — not a mere pot-house — and if the hon. member put in provision for compensation, he would vote for the second reading. He entirely ooncurred in the principle of allowing women to vote. Mr Sutton could not support the Bill. It

was extreme in scope, and unworkable. ■ He did not believe altogether in the principle of local option, which, he feared, would be used in a very arbitrary manner, and be a great hardship on travellers, to whom many hotels entirely owed their support— as in Wellington, for instance.

Mr Barff , while agreeing with much of the Bill, considered it a thoroughly revolutionary measure. He was surprised the hon. gentleman did not refer to the grog-shanty evils which naturally flowed from prohibition, as had been the case in Maine. It appeared to him that one of the best ways to lessen intemperance would be to remove the duty on light wines, and he would like to see the Government open negotiations with the Australian Colonies with that object. Many people who signed petitions for the Local Option Bill were unacquainted with its principles. Mr Harper considered the Bill no improva* ment upon the one of last year, from which he always said no result could spring if it were impossible to amend it in Cemmittee.

Sir J. Richardsen did not think the Bill could be altered in Committee aa to make it a good or just BilL He should oppose the second reading.

Mr Burns said it seemed to him very strange to find a member of a popular assembly op pored to trusting to the people the power of speaking out on a great social question. The present system was indefensible in theory and practice as compared with that proposed in the Bill. As to compensation, licenses were refused every quarter, and compensation was neither expected nor given, and why should it be different if the people refused a license ? The Hon. Mr Nahe spoke in favour of the Bill.

Mr WakefieM said a great change was needed in the Licensing system to make im« provements in the drinking habits of the people and to promote successtul settlement, acd he thought the Bill was a step in the right direction. The greatest possible influences were brought to bear to obtain licenses. Lawyers obtained enormous fees, more almost than a man would pay who was being tried for his life. The hon. gentleman gave an instance of where a person who kept a scandalouslyconducted house tried every lawyer in a certain town, and failed to get his license, until he bethought himself of employing two young men, sons of Justices who were on the Licensing Bench. He knew one house where, while the application for his license was being heard, there were 50 men fightinsr in the bar. He got it on the ground that he was absent when the row took place. He denied that publicans had any vested interest; They built their house •first, and then asked for a license afterwards. One curious feature in the arguments against the Bill was that its opponents said it would not ameliorate drunkenness, and yet they held out for compensation because all .the hotels would be closed. Messrs Takamoana and Tawati supported the Bill. Mr Thomson thought the principal objections urged against the Bill were of the , nature of committee's objections, and as the hon. gentleman was willing to accept amendments, he would support the second reading. Mr_ Rtzroy thought the whole secret of the question lay in the constitution of the Licensing Bench. He entirely disapproved of .the present system, which practically left it in the hnnds of a policeman to say whether a license should be granted. He was for giving local option . a trial.

Mr' Rolleston considered the line of argument taken, by the mover of the Bill perfectly untenable. The mover regarded the business of a publican as immoral. He considered the Bill tlie most rigorous measure ever brought before the House. It ought not be made retrospective. If public-houses were to be destroyed, compensation could not be avoided;' yet, to carry that out, raised up almost" insuperable difficulties. What the case really demanded ' was the revision of tbe licensing laws, 1 the establishment of houses with more comforts andless bar drinking, and place heavier penalties on offences of drunkenness.

Mr Taiaroa moved the adjournment of the debate till next Wednesday. The House adjourned at 2.40.

In the House at L3O to-day, Mr Curtis gave notice to ask the Government whether they intended to introduce a Bill dealing with re3erves for higher education. la reply to a question by Mr Rees, » The Hon. G. M'Lean said that if the man-of-war in the harbour had not gone in search of the missing boats of the Queen Bee she would go immediately. . > In reply to Mr Murray, The Hon. Mr Ormond said none of the money voted for the construction of roads in Auckland Province last session had been spent upon roads leading to the Piako Swamp Company's property.

The Hon. Mr Bowen said, in reply to Mr Teschemaker, they proposed to ask for powsr to remove the R.M. Court and Police Station at Waimate to an adjoining reserve.' The Hon. Mr Ormond said the railway between Cave and Albany station would be opened in a fortnight.

In a break in the proceedings, Mr Teachemaker expressed his regret for certain expressions he mpde use of towards the member for Geraldine, in connection with the debate on the Local Option Bill. Several Bills were introduced and read a first time.

On the debate on the Native Lands Court Bill being come to,

The Premier asked that it be made an order of the day for Tuesday next, when he would inform the House what the Government proposed to do with regard to Mr Balance's amendment.

Messrs Sheehan and Rees demanded that the Government should let the House know there and then what they proposed to do but '

Messrs Brown (Ashley) and Pox said it was only a reasonable request, and the House ought to agree to it. This was agreed to. Cries of " Adjourn " being raised, Mr Brown (Ashley) formally moved the adjournment. The Premier got up and said it appeared a number of honourable members quite mistook the position of affairs, The Bill was only a social Bill, and had been stated to- be "such; and, therefore, there was no reason why they should not proceed with the ordinary business. If members on the other side wanted to treat the question as a party one, let them move that they had no coDfidenca in them. Then they would find the Government ready to take up the challenge. They should remember that the amendment came from the Government from one of their supporters. Some discussion here ensued between Messrs Stout and Whitaker. The former maintained that practically what the Government asked for was time to consider their position. Tbat was the only constitutional interpretation of the position.

Mr Whitaker spoke at some length to show that what was asked was perfectly regular and not unusual. The amendment, though coming from one end of their supportera, meant a revisal of the former law on the question of

Native Land Courts; 1 and, though.-hejtvaaifree'l to confess that the Government, as i^mhoUff^ had a great deal of sympathy with theamend-.r ment, there were so many points of- import-;; ance ( involved that the matter, .required no little i consideration. ,i j- <;t Mr Rees twitted Mr Whitaker with being abandoned by his colleagues, he being the . author of the Bill, and added that when he (Mr Rees) was occupying the place of thy present " ; Attorney-General, he would cphtrive/.'to." fee * more in accord with his colleagues/ l.l ' . * ' ' • ' ' ' ' " Mr Reader Wood said it was'nnfair 'and un. •"' reasonable to ask the' House' to make speecheX,'. on education when an important political B pHii- ' dole was -under consideration.' It .was" quire "^ clear that aa opposition has arisen' amongst tn'd''' Government's own' supporters, and 'thafr'tfre'; party they had once had entirely collapsed^ 1 *, " Mr Button said that, the Opposition wished" 1 to" drive the Government into a position. they declined to take. There was no "necessity for . this. If any member., of -the House .wished 'to ' test the position. of the "Qbvernment, it waa _ quite' open * for him to-doso in ; an open s andstraightforward manneri '[.They would know then what they were- dealing with. They wished by a side wind to place the Government on the horns of a dilemma. ' •• ' >•>' 'i .* >'.l

. Mr Gisborne pointed out that the'Preinier's ' words could' not, be construed as meaning to'conaider their position, because, according 'to r ' Constitutional usage,' the (Government weiienot^ required to consider their position* until : the ; ; amendment was passed. '•',''' '' ! "* ! ' "' ' v! After some remarks from' Mr Thomson, 'hA.t ~; ; Mr Fox said that if their 1 constituentsVcl{&ld \ see them playing at 1 legislation, and' indukjjuig ' in logomachy, they would feel 'inclined to' lake £ them by the scruff of the neck, and knock thoir * heads together. The present discussion'- 'wa^a' I pure waste of time. Let them- settle 'ib' by"a : ' J division at once. . ; , ■ •" '^I .!•»*• \ Messrs Montgomery and Macandrew' sup- " ported the adjournment of tKe "House. ''*»-•'«! '^^^ ■ After the position being explained: according 'I to the Hon. Mr Boweh's viewy which 1 a&reea v with Mr Gisbome's, • . , - : ■ ■} •*&<•,„-, <. ; Sir G. Grey proceeded to refer ton tile point ' ; in dispute, and supported the adjourhnjent. l , t In the course of his remarks, he accused ! the * Government of impeding the most importtuitf '- business, and of making statements' with regard ■'•' to the financial position of the country calcu- •" latedto deceive the country, The Premier 2 -' had not told the country that they would haye L ' to raiseabout five millions in 18 months'or two" ' years to carry on public works. ■■ 'This rwasde--"r wasde-- " ceivingthe home creditor, There were'th'ree '•' questions hanging over the heads of- the! Gov-" ; eminent, which must seriously affect the- posi". 1; tien they occupied in the eyes of- the House— '^ viz., the question of incidental 1 taxation, *th'e io amendment on the Native Lands ' Court' 1 Bilk' J and the motion regarding theWaka* J Maorl/ * ! -'' I The Hon. Mr Stafford.did not agree with the r vieV taken by some members,' that the Govern-?-meht were in a very humiliating position.' l 'TSsi :i agreed with the view taken of, the ' position 'by VJ the member for HokitiicaV So long as the Govf} 1 ernment remained on these benches they, were to' 1 ' decide hoy/ business was to be condu'ctedl' ; ;4riie r ' l Opposition had no fight ,to decide. what"w as* a" 11 vote' of want of confidence. Why? J fa^the"British Parliament, when Mr Wood, now Lord -'* Halifax, was Chancellor pflthe Exchequer, l the* 3 House made .the" Government take bac£:"th"eir - £ budget and remodel 'it, 'That was not regarded; f as a vote of want of /confidence,' > and the 'same ■** Government, kept dffice,.tliree -sessions after." - He thought, however, the Government Vwoald 1 ' be unwise to come down that evening 'with' the 1 ' Public Works Statement; but i as 'to> i; feeling- ' over-senßitiveness in regard to .the ' motion for' T adjournment l and' allowing 'themselves x io' 3be-f3 be- f forced into a false petition., the, country? wduld' not thank them for it .He thought, bowfeVery ' the Government wquld have acted' better f f6r' lT themselves if they hasd brought" Mr Woolcocfc's^ motion to 3n issue as soon as possibleV'b'eckns^* they could not go ihto'Supply before that 5 waa ! ; decided! • Under all the circumstances- he' would I counsel Government, to' accede to "tixeadjbunii^ ment. •>«'•• - •', -' - ■ i ' : " ''' ". " tl J - l-'J- ' Mr E'eid, explained that* an ' : understanding^' \ had been 1 come, to that.Mr : ,Wb6lcopk a mptfoh-^ should 'not- be discussed • before 7 lthe* Public 3 Works Statement was brought' -d6wn. ;J • If'it 4 .^ had not been for the meaning which' inust 1 ai--^-tach to the adjournment by the country; they' A might have acceded to it, but'they did not regard!' I it in that- light,' and therefore bppos'edi' Hk--' 1 ferring to Sir George Grey's statements regard^'" ing the Financial ' Statement, he said thktflheyr • ought to be accompanied/by proof. He would i - ' soon, however, be given an .opportunity" to% prove what' he must- call vague, general stsate'« it -ments. - ••.-.„ • v ,j- w^-." :i f Mr Eees proceeded to prove from the'linjan*, ' cial Statement that t Sir ;G. Grey's assertions'were quite' true. If was clear tne Government '*' did not 'want the trulh to be known; - Within"^ the last 'two' years' there had ; beeii" t 6ver"'** L 400.000 in- Treasury bills raised.' Thev'had^to pay the Banks" back the' borrowed 'million in ' 20 months, and they were 1 now with'Lßoo;oo0 :u in Treasury bills' out; for which no provision "I was made. He 'would take .upon- nimaelfto;; draw , up a' small financial statement. 11 "'lf he?' could not' make rip •a'truer;dne.thantKe <I Tjre&- ' ' surer, he would give it up. ' '■'* ] "- '. ''' '" " ; ">■'*>"'* The Premier said'he felt compassion for; the"; { hon. gentleman. He had the 1 misfortune, to ■', have written a book, and made aproph'ecy that I,' ruin was overtaking the t Colony. Welf{''.five ' years had passed, and ruin was still 5 coming,' • ' and the hon. erentlemankept still floundering j in the finances of the Colony: He' searceljL,^ ought to be expected to' treat the' hon., gentle-^ - man in any other way than was done, to pet*" sons who 'habitually used profane -.langusige^ - and not notice him. The Premier we'nt'on' to ' show that Mr Kees was ' entirely astray in hiir figures^ He clearly had ro^ knowledge 1 what-* eyer of statute law on the, matter, and when he" criticised the JFinancial Statement, the Govern-'^ ment had a right 'to expect from him soine 1^ knowledge of the law upon the subject.' Itr '. seemed quite hopeless to argue with him. He!' 1 tried to surprise the House by tellirig.'theni^ ; L 5,000,000 would have to' be borrowed in five * years, but he could tell him they would haye ■'- to borrow more, and very properly sol 'There 1 "< was no deficit bnyond mere book-keeping" ' * deficit. The Premier gave full and detailed answers to Mr Rees's charges to show his sikt'e- '■ ments were unjustified. ' '• '*' '"." J * The discussion was continued' 'by' 'Mr" ' Sheehan, who kept it up till 5.30. ' ; "-_' — — — ' • '• ' *■ i In the House this evening, ,' . . ' . , In continuation of the debate raised on. the ' motion to adjourn till Tuesday, „ „ ' „ '.'' ] Mr Sheehan resumed his argument • to sltow^ „' that Ministers would have acted more, manly-"" if, when they found that the House , wa3 hot i with them, in not at once taking issue ' up6n" the point. When Messrs Stafford and Fox lsd ) the House, the one on the Government'be'ndies'i and the other leading the Opposition, '.'they' ".' tried the strength of their respective' parties on'' 3 the very question now in dispute, andl'thpugh." ' there was only a majority of ' one,, resignations', 1 were handed over next day. After adme' further remarks, the non. member said : .Having gained their point, they were prepared'nb^' to let. the question of adjournment goj.anii 'to, r " ' listen to the Public 1 Works Statement. l " -' *.';..' The matter then dropped^. and " ' ' f lA '\ The Hon;' Mr Orffibnd proceeded to deUvfflf I*.*1 *.* his ' "■" "' ' ' "•-'^•'

August 14th. In the Legislative Council, After some formal business. The Council adjourned till Thursday, owing to Dr Pollen's indisposition. In the House this afternoon, Mr Button presented a petition, praying for the construction of a bridge orer the Hokitika River. Mr Karatiana Takamoana presented a petition signed by 500 Natives, praying that the Native land Court Bill be not passed in undue haste. Mr Sheehan presented a petition, praying the House to enquire into certain allegations regarding the Chief Justice, and Justice Richmond.

Mr Fox gave notice to move a resolution for the prohibition of Gaming on Race Courses and in public houses. Mr Rees gave notice to ask certain questions as to the paying of £400,000 Treasury bills mentioned in the Financial Statement.

According to the report of the Public Accounts Committee there was no objection to the financial year closing on the 31st March, bat it woald have to be regulated by the period at which the House met. The Hon. Mr Rsynolds gave notice to sibve for the appointment ot a Committee to inquire into the condition of the Assembly buildings. ( In reply to Mr Travers. vThe Hon. Mr Whitaker said the Government did not propose to alter the representation daring the present session or until the census had been taken.

"Sir Gisborna asked whether the Government will introduce this session a Bill, as requested by the Senate of the University of New Zealand in March, 1876, for the purpose of vesting in trustees, to be agreed on by the Government and the Senate, the lands reserved for promoting higher education in certain Provinces, and of enabling the same to be administered for the purposes for which they were reserved. The Hon. Mr Bowen replied that Government had been considering matters, but had not decided how the trustees would be appointed. They did not intend bringing in a Bill that session.

The Hon. Mr Reynolds asked whether the Government would lay before tbe House a return showing a list of all Provincial officers whose services have been dispensed with under the Abolition of Provinces Act, their duties and salaries ; also, a return showing the names of all officers not being Provincial officers, not appointed during the recess, their duties and salaries ?

The Premier replied that a return would be laid upon the table. The Hon. Mr Reynolds asked the Commissioner of Customs! whether Government intend taking any Bteps with the vieje of establiahiag another Training School similar to the one existing at Kohimarama ?

The Hon. MrM'Lean replied that their experience so far had not been of such a nature as to encourage them to establish another school. H«» hoped the New Zealand S.BJ. Company would take some of their boys as apprentices. - Mr Bastings asked the Government if they have any intention, during the present session, of making provision for the establishment of a -Reformatory for the Colony. The Hon. Mr Bowen said this matter was under consideration. They had, however, several schools already, which served as Reformatories.

Upon Orders of the Day being come to, ihe Premier referred to a promise he had isade the House on Friday last, to declare on Tuesday what the Government intended to do regarding Mr Ballance's amendment. The hon. gentleman detailed the circnmstances which led to the introduction of the Bill to simplify the legislation which had previously been acceptable to Natives, and it was prepared carefully, to carry oat those principles. Tbe Bill appeared to be acceptable to some Europeans, because a party had grown up who thought that any fresh legislation on this subject should be different from tae coarse they had pursued for the last ten years. The Natives objected to the Bill, on the ground that the Courts were not satisfactory. It was clear that the Natives should be consulted. When the Bill was brought before the House it was clear that large numbers of Government supporters objected to the Bill. Those gentlemen who usually voted against Government took advantage of this, and endeavoured to make it a party question. It was fortunate for the country that Government were in a position to resist this, for it wa3 the first time ever a Native Land Bill had been made a party question. The hon. gentleman went on to say that after giving the utmost consideration to the principle contained in the amendment of their hon. friend, the member for Rangitikei, and considering the vast importance of the question to the Natives, and ihe necessity of r'JJnaolting them, the Government decided to ask for the discharge of the Order of the Day relating to the BilL To morrow he would more for leave to introduce a Bill to prevent all purchases of Native lands by private persons untU the end of next session.

Mr Stont raised a point of order, arguing that the amendment of the member for Ran. gitikei could not be interrupted in that way, because it was the amendment which was really before the House, and that the Order of the Day referred to conld not be discharged. The Speaker pointed oat that rile 103 of Standing Orders made it very clear. He therefore conld not feel impressed by the arguments of the member for Danedin.

Sir Geo. Grey took ap a similar ground to Mr Stont,

The Hon. Mr Reynolds pointed out the inconvenience which followed the practice of not accepting the Speaker's ruling. Messrs Rees, Fox, Travers, Giaborne, the Premier, and others having spoken to the point of order,

The Speaker ruled against the objections raised by Mr Stoat, who as ted the Speaker to refresh his memory as to the Premier having Bpoken previously in the debate, and therefore being incompetent to move the discharge of the Order of the Day, by reference to the journals of the Houae and Hansard. The Speaker, having referred to Hansard, decided aga ; n9t Mr Stont. Mr Sheehan then asked whether it was not competent to speak on the question that the Order of tho Day be discharged. '

The Speaker decided that the whole question could be re-opened, and Mr Lu3k then proceeded to apeak as to the merits of the Bill, which, he said, dealt with the most; important question of all to Natives, and one of life and death to the people of the North Island. If there was to be any improper dealing with land of Natives, then there would necessarily be widespread dissatisfaction amongst them. Their duty •was to do justice to the Maoris, but it would not be doing justice to them so that all their land must unavoidably fall into the hands of a certain class of people whose interests were uot the interests of the Natives. They were told they were giving free trade in land, buti ifc was not free trade in land to allow the Maoris to mortgage their land in order to get it surveyed. The one principle which ought to bo in the Bill was that the lands should be brought into the market, so as to enable settlers to buy the land, instead of playing into the hands of capitalists, or companies of capitalists, which would shut up these islands to colonisation for an indefinite number of years, and probably lead to a repetition of those troubles with the Natives which already cost the Colony so dearly. What they ought to do was to endeavour to get Maoris to settle down amongst Europeans, and give up their old style of living, and enable them to grow up a united community. He deprecated the course proposed by the Premier as unwilling and dilatory. Justice ought to be done to the Natives at once. Why should they wait ? A whole year's time was asked to enable them to consult the Natives ; but, perhaps, what was realiy wanted to consult the Native officers'— a class of Maori doctors who did inure to injure the Colony than any class of tnen who ever were here. They would not be doing their duty unless they moved another Bill be brought down that session. The hon. gentleman then moved that the following words be added to the Premier's motion for the discharge of the Order of tho Day, namely, "to enable the Government to give effect to the amend ment of the hon. member for Rangicikei." It was not the interest of the Colony to stop the sale of Native lands for twelve months ; it would be impossible to make a law that would prevent the sale of Native lands. If the Premier's motion were agreed to, ib would not msan stopping the sale of lands j it would stop colonisation altogether. Mr Sutton denied that the Bill gay« opportunity for monopolists to obtain Native land. The Bill was a very great improvement in interest of settlement over past legislation. The fact was the monopolist was m?de a mere stalking-hoise of. They had only to look round, and they would see what the Act of 1873 did for monopolists, while doing nothing for settlement. As to what was said about the Natives' dissatisfaction about the Bill, he begged to refer them to the petition signed by 600 Natives oa the East Coast, and presented on the first day of the session. No doubt the Bill had certain objectionable features, and one notable defect was, the enormous power given to the Chief Judge, a power greater than possessed by any Judge of the Supreme Oourt, and certainly to much to entrust any man with. The debate was interrupted by 5.30.

August 15th. In the House last evening, The debt.te on the Native Lands Bill was resumed. Mr Sutton continued. He objected to thB powers proposed to be conferred on the Chief Judge, the powers already possessed were too large, and had not always been exercised to the be3t advantage ; instead of being extended, they should be restricted.

Mr Fox had listened with attention to Mr Sutton, who had large personal experience in Native lands, he believing he himself had not this, but still knew something of the subject. In 1872 he vehemently resisted the adjournment (?) in the pre-emptive right of the Crown, but now it was utterly hopeless to return to the status ante quo. It seemed to be generally admitted thac existing legislation on the subject was not satisfactory. A Bill prepared last session had been withdrawn, and the present Bill seemed to have been introduced to effect what was then so much insisted on, the individualisation of Native title. Mr Gisborne said the Government had chalked up the Native Lands Court Bill on the walls of the House, and then immediately bolted. If they sympathised with the amendment, why did they not accept and give effect to it?

Mr Travers said the effect of postponing all legislation on the subject for a yoar would be to enormously enhance the value of land already acquired by speculators. Mr Rees twitted the Hoc. Mr Ormond with his silence, and then went on to narrate the history of a number of Hawkes Bay land transactions, with which that Minister must be iamiliar, as he now held a portion of the property which was originally obtained from its Native owner in a most shameful manner. Mr Takamoana said he had a deal to say on the subject, and he moved the adjournment of the debate until Thursday. This was agreed to. "The Hon. Major Atkinson proposed it be resumed at 7.30 on Thursday. Mr Stout objected, arguing it should take its proper place after private members' business. On this the House divided, and Major Atkinson's proposal was carried by 37 to 26. The House adjourned at 12.40 a.m.

In the House this afternoon, Replying to Mr Burns, The Hon. Mr Reid eaid ha had no further information than what appeared in the Otago papers as to what steps were being taken to enforce payment of overdue rents from the present holders of Wakatipu runs. He was aware of large arrears being due. The Commissioner had power to enforce payment, and would be instructed to protect the revenue. The Hon. Mr Ormond promised Mr Macandrew a statement showing the relative cost of railway carriages delivered in the Colony from England as compared with the amount paid by the Provincial Government of Otago to Messrs Findlay and Co., Danedin, for such carriages manufactured by them. Ths Hon. Major Atkinson told Mr Macondrew Government had given no authority for opening the Dunedin Museum on Sundays. New Bills introduced :— St. Andrew's Church Trustees Incorporation Bill (Mr Travers) ; Works of Art Copyright Bill (Mr Travers) Bill to enable Timaru Mechanics' Institute to raise funds to defray liabilities (Mr Stafford) ; ]\ew Zealand Law Secretaries Act Amendment (Mr Harper). Mr Stout moved— "That in tho opinion of this House, ihe Governor of the Colony should be elected by people of the Colony." It would probably be urged as one objection, that such a

proposal was unconstitutional, but this objection reminded him of the objections raised in the Japanese Parliament to the abolition of ha,ri kari. It would also be urged that the motion would destroy the dependence on, and the sympathy of the Colony with the Mother Country. Mr Sewell, when Minister of Justioe in 1870, speaking from the Government Benches, had, however, gone much beyond what was now proposed, and said this was a question which must one day be solved. Mr Waterhouse also had gone almost to the extent of urging lhat New Zealand should become independent. All he now asked was the right of electing an Executive officer. He did not think this increase of political power would at all affect the loyalty of the people, or the relation between Colony and Empire. The Governors being appointed by, and responsible to an outside authority, was destructive to national life. As to the objection that the elected Governoj; would be a [partisan, the question af election made little difference. Elected Superintendents had been quite as independent and impartial as nominated Governor?. He did nob wish to prescribe any particular mode of election, but simply have it laid down that the people are the source of all political power. This would tend to create what was the great need of the Colony, a political opinion. The present state of parties in the House showed the want of this. In other Colonies a feeling was growing up in a similar direction. Mr Tole seconded the motion. He did not think a nominated Governor could command the confidence of people to the extent desirable. The present system was merely a fashion which could be well changed. The Governorship should be an object open to the laudable ambition of every colonist. A nominated Governor had already forced Abolition on the Colony against the will of the people, and this fact justified the Colony in setting aside any previous understanding with the Imperial Government cs to the appoinment of Governor. When one party broke faith all compact was at an end.

The Hon. Mr Bowen said Mr Stout thousht the subject one fit for a debating society, and so he (Mr Bowen) would not discuss it at length. The proposal really was to take from Parliament a large portion of its power. Parliamert should cave full power, and no one outside should be able to say he more fully re-pi-esented > the whole people. * That would be the inevitable result of the motion. The Colony should steer clear of what Americans termed one-man power. History showed ihat tyranny and anarchy were inevitable where there was an elected head, except in America where it was on its trial, and that country had been plunged into war through the election of a President. Responsible Government as we understood it could not be carried on fairly or properly if the Governor were the head of a party. Such a subject should not even be lightly raised. The experience of Provincial Governments as they grew larger showed how impossible it was to graft on a bystem of parlia mentary Government such a totally different system as having an elected executive head. The^ House should not waste time discussing the motion.

Mr Hodgkinson believed responsible or partyGovernment had been and was the curse of the Colony. The old American colonies used to elect their governors with most satisfactory results, In the course of his speech he alluded to the Governor as a parrizan. The Hon. Major Atkinson rose to order. The Speaker ruled the remark out of order. Mr Hodgkinson : It would not be held so in the House of Commons.

Mr Stout and Mr iiees supported Mr Hodgkinson. Sir G. Grey moved the words be taken down. This was negatived on the voices, and Mr Hodgkinson proceeded speaking at considerable length in support of the motion. The Hon. Mr Reid warmly defended himself from the accusations by Mr Hodgkineon that he had deserted the prinsiples he advocated in 1875 and 1876. His conduct throughout had been consistent. In 1875 he had opposed any compromise about Abolition, without reference of the question to the constituencies, but their leaders had agreed to terms which yielded up the victory. Then seing it hopeless to repeal Abolition, he abandoned obstructive opposition and accepted the verdict of the country. This was a proper constitutional position. The Provinces being abolished he declined to bind himself any longer to a paity with whose other principles he was not in unisou. He saw no reason why because he had differed with the Government on a question which had passed away he should always remain in opposition to them. It was not contemplated ambition or personal benefits that led nim to join Government, but the higher motives that he cculd do good to the part of the Colony he represented by doing so. Ia every respect he challenged investigation into his conduct. Tne debate was interrupted by the dinner hour.