The General Assembly.

Otago Witness, Issue 1341, 11 August 1877, Page 8

The General Assembly.

[By Telegraph.]

Wellington, August 2nd.

In the Legislative Council, The Forest Trees Planting Encouragement Bill was read a second time. After various members speaking, the Bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday next. Bills passed. — Friendly Societies and Industrial and Provident Societies Bills.

The Hon. Dr Pollen, replying to Captain Eraser, said the Government intended to carry out as soon as possible the recommendations contained in the report of the Inspector-Gene-ral of the Lunatic Asylums of the Dunedin and other Lunatic Asylums. The necessary funds required first to be appropriated.

Last evening the House resumed at 7.30. Mr Rees gave notice of a motion condemning any Ministry that used its influence and means in defending an action brought by one private individual against another to recover damages for an alleged libel, and that after the distinct expression of opinion of the House last session ; that the House regards the conduct of the Government in still carrying on the Waka Maori as highly reprehensible ; also for a Committee to enquire into the circumstances under which the Bank overdraft at the Thaires was paid by the Government. Tho debate on the Charitable Institutions Bill was continued by Sir G. Grey, who commented upon the poverty of the speech with which the Bill was introduced Dy Mr Reid. Justice was not done to the Hon&e in that speech. In fact important principles were concealed that took away the rights of the people. The hoc. gentleman then narrated all that had been done by himself in establishing charitable institutions throughout the Colony, and under which no human being was allowed te suffer dire ex treaiity. These institutions, presided over by superintendents, were more efficient than any system could possibly be managed under any central authority. Disguise his Bill aa they may, it vas a poor law — nothing mere. If Government had intended to perpetuate a race of paupers, they could not have devised a better plan than their BilL The hon. gentleman went on to say that the Government had done all they could to reduce the Native race to paupers, notably at Tauranga, where their land had been taken without being open to public competition. The friends of the Government, and even the Land Purchase Commissioners, had been allowed to acquire enormous fortunes in land. Ten thousand acres of coal mine land was given to ane individual to enrich him. Higher up Waikato, a similar thing was done. Borne down by grief at these things, he had been thinking of fleeing from a country where such things could be, but at last made up his mind to attack, and never cease attacking, these monstrous wrongs until justice was done. Every human being had & right to subsistence from the State, and to call that Communism, as the Premier did, was outrageous ; it simply meant pillage. The poor had as much right to subsistence as they had to air. To hand over the control of charitable institutions, as pronosed in the Bill, was an abdication of the functions of Government. The Bill would corrupt the charitable as well as the poor. The Government ought to have said during the ieceass "we will appoint a commission" as was done in Eagl&ndand Ireland, and they would have furnished information on which to frame a BilL Until that Bill was prepared the old institutions should have been kept going. He objected to the subsidy for these institutions being taken from the Customs duties, why not take it from the incomes and land of the wealthy, and the squatters who made the land a desert? They were told that what the Colony wanted, was political rest. Did ever minds grovel so before, did any nation ever reach greatness by political rest? Were the men who uttered such a sentiment fit to lead a yonng nation forward ? The Hon. Mr Bowenf ailed to gather, although listening attentively to ascertain, what the hon. gentleman would propose instead of the Bill. As he always did, whether apropos or not, the hon. gentleman continually made vague charges against Government individually and collectively, but they were made in such a way that it was impossible to reply to them. They would be only too glad to court enquiry. The hon. gentleman talked of depriving people of land, but he well remembered that when Sir Ceo. Grey was Governor, he enabled land outside of Christchurch to be sold at 10s per acre in spite of the indignant remonstrances of the people of Canter bury. The hon. gentleman spoke of a Poor Law as a charter of rights. Well, he could only say "God help the country that looked upon a Poor Law as a charter of rights." England was the only country where it was held the destitute had a claim upon the_ rates, and yet there was no country in which there we're more deaths from pauperism. Referring to Poor Law rates, he said if rates "were high wages would be low, and it would be better to have low rates and high wages than high rates and low wages. The system proposed was not new ; it was working very well in Otago and elsewhere. He might refer to one evil which existed under the old system. Some who could well afford paying for Hospital assistance preyed upon the State, and that he called plundering the poor. Tile right of maintenance, as it was called, was really the right to rcrvive, and in England had the effect of encouraging the worthless to lead a life of idleness. Certainly, no honest poor man ever 100 led forward with satisfaction to the charity of the State.

Mr Manders, speaking for the district he came from, said the people there would be quite prepared with a subsidy of pound for pound to take care of their poor. Major Hussell pointed out that the question was essentially a social one, bat he feared the eloquent speeches of the member for Thames gave it a political character. The Bill had nothing to do with paupers, and they should not be dragged in. They had no paujjer class, and the Bill was only intended to deal with extraordinary cases. There was no likelihood of a pauper clase springing up for very many years, and he had no fear of private sympathy failing in the Colony. There were numbers of institutions in England supported without State aid or endowment — entirely by private benevolence — and there were not the great fortunes here that there were in England, put there was more wealth in proportion to the

population, and the people of the Coiony were as benevolent. The Act was a good one. It reminded him of a person travelling over a plain and saying there was no water. Only let him sink artesian, and he would find a perennial flow. With this Bill, let them once tap the springs of private charity, and they would find a perennial flow.

Mr de Lautour considered the Bill as much a Poor Law as any in existence. It was said over and over again that the Bill was the same as the Otago system, but it should be remembered that the Otago institutions were a growth — not a creation. The miners first established them, and then called upon the Provincial Government to give them what help they could. Mr Swanson would give the Government all the assistance he could, as some measure wa« imperatively needed, but at the same time he hoped they would withdraw it. He was surprised at what fell from the Government, that the poor scan had no right of subsistence. Let a man starve his children, or throw himself over the wharf, and it would soon be discovered that his children were owned by the State ; or if a man attempted his own life, he would have to answer to the State. Let Government make provision for those institutions out of a personal or property tax, and he would support them. The Government ought to find Bites, and build good institutions on them, so poor people could go there and demand assistance. He did not like the voluntary system. People ought to be made do their duty. There would always be an enormous field for private benevolence, after the State did all expected of it. To provide for the destitute of a country from private contributions would be found ks impossible as to suckle a child at the breast of a stone statue. Mr Rowe had told the House how well the system worked at the Thames ; but he forgot that all their worst cases came to Auckland. They came from all round, and from vessels, and they had all to be kept somehow

Mr Bastings would feel constrained to vote for the amendment, that the Bill be read that day six months. He demurred very strongly to that part of the Bill which threw upon local bodies, Orphanages, and Reformatories. If the Government did cot soon take charge of the Reformatories they would, one of these days, discover they were having a class growing up that would entail great cost to the country. Mr Joyce said though he had accustomed himself to defer to a certain member of the House — Sir George Grey— he entirely differed from the line of argument he adopted. He touched on subjects that should have been traversed on fitter occasions and more especially to the purpose. As to the Bill, he did not believe it would do all that was required, but it was a step in the right direction, and would, while leading up to something better, do great good. It would stimulate the latent Samaritanism of the people, as was seen in the South. Whether Otago institutions were created or grew, it appeared to him the same thing — they served their |urpose, and served it well. Reference had been made to the difficulty of collecting money, but he apprehended little even in country districts, tor he had seen shearers unasked contribute from their earningß towards Hospitals ; in fact, they did it customarily. Mr Stout, in commenting on the Bill, Baid the speech of the Minister of Justice admitted that large landed estates, as was pointed out by the member for the Thames, were a cause of pauperism, but ever since that Government was on the benches they had taken no single step to abate the cause of pauperism by legislation to cut up large estates. Still, he agreed with the principle affirmed by the Premier that a person had no right to come to the Government for sustenance. For instance, take two shearers ; number one took care of his earnings, the other squandered them. Were you*to impose ao additional tax upon the thrifty man to support the recklessness of the unthrifty ? Instead of the Bill not going far enough, it went a deal too far. Why, when a school was established, it had only to be called a Charity School, and al once becomes entitled to Government aid. Some restrictions should be placed to prevent this. He deprecated the discouraging of private beneficence, which had a most humanising and elevating effect. He was astonished at the position taken upon this question by the Canterbury members, who all opposed Provincial institutions last year, and yet now wanted to retain what was part of that system. He would support th 9 second reading. Mr Stafford said the House \ias asked at short notice to solve a question that had not yet been solved in the civilised world. It could not be settled in days nor years, nor probably, to give general satisfaction, so long as there existed those who had and those who had not ; and if New Zealand did it, she would have succeeded in doing what had not yet been done. He regretted a Commission had not been appointed. He pointed out that it must have been apparent for some time that a change must be effected in the way in which their charitable institutions were supported, because the Land Fund could not last for ever. Whether paupers had a claim upon the State or not, deserving paupers could not be allowed to starve among them. One such case, and the whole country would ring with it. He would vote for the second reading. Mr Brandon aiso supported the secend reading.

Mr Reid wondered why there should be co much misapprehension aa to the Bill, when it was clearly explained that the Bill did not apply to any institution, but those of which the managers applied to be brought under the Bill. The member for Avon hod denounced all .the provisions of the Bill ; but he could not recommend anything in its stead. All experience showed that private charity decreased just in proportion as State asxist&nce increased. He contended in the face of all that had been said, that the only people to be entrusted with the management of charitable institutions were those who contributed to their support. He had no doubt whatever from what had been experienced in this Colony and other Colonies, that if a Commission was appointed, the result of that Commission would be that it would endorse the Bill with its imprimature. Had the Otago Provincial Council existed another year, the support of the Hospitals would have been thrown upon the City of Dunedin, and he ventured to say to those who were so eloquent about what they called their noble institutions, they would find that after the Bill became law, theae institutions would not be long before they came tinder the Bill. The hon. gentleman quoted from Victorian and New South Wales returns, regarding ths success of the voluntary system. The Inspector of New South Wales "in his report stnted that Government was giving so lavishly that pauper ism was increased.

Owing to the lateness of the hour, the hon. member cut abort his remarks. The second reading was carried by 42 against The Bill was ordered to be committed on Thursday next, clause 25 of the Bill to be con sidered in Committee of the whole to-morrow. The House adjourned at 12.35.

In the House this afternoon, Mr Macandrew gave notice to ask whether the Colony is likely to lose the services of Sir Julius Vogel at the end of the present year.

Mr O'Rorke gave notice to move for a grant of LSOOO in aid of the pnblio libraries throughout the Colony. In reply to Mr Brown (Tuapeka), The Preimer said it was not the intention of the Government to recommend any further nominations to the Legislative Council this year. Id reply to Mr Stout, The Premier said the despatch of the 9th January to Lord Carnarvon was written by His Excellency. In reply to Mr Rees, as to telegraph officials amending Press telegrams, The Hon. Mr M'Lean said that so far as he was informed that was not true. They had altered or excised words from a telegram, but it was their function to decide what was Press matter and what was private — a matter which affected the revenue considerably.

In reply to Mr Fitzroy, The Hon. Mr M'Lean said arrangements were being made for opening telegraph offices at the all the principal railway stations. The following bills wera read a first time : — Triennial Parliaments Bill, Manhood Suffrage Bill, Central Otago and South Canterbury Bill, Dunedin Drill Shed Reserve Amending BUL

Mr Stout gave notice to move that the Governor of the Colony be in future elected by the people of the Colony. Mr Rees gave notice to move for a Committee of Enquiry into the practice of telegraph officials altering Press telegrams without the consent of the senders.

Mr Burns moved for a, return showing the cost of the Railway Commission, with the individual expenses of each member, and where the Hinemoa was engaged, and her cost of main tenance during the trip that the Commission took. She took away eeveral officers of the Government, and it struck him if the duties of these officers could be carried on satisfactorily during their absence, their services might be dispensed with altogether. The Commission, too, made railway management worse than it was before. It was a mistake to suppose that any uniform tariff could be made mutually satisfactory to North and South alike. The Hon. Mr Ormond said the Hjnemoa was not engaged at all. Tho other information asked for would be furnished, as a matter of fact the tariffs were lower now than before.

Mr Reader Wood said there was nothing but downright mismanagement of railways from one end of the Colony to the other. The Government went right id the face of the recommendations of the Auckland Commission, which said the rates were generally too high in Auckland, except from Auckland to Onehunga, which tbey considered reasonable. The first thing Government did was to double the fare on that line, and now ommbusses were running alongside railways, full of people at Is, while railway cars, charged 2s, went empty. Mr Brown (Ashley) agreed with all the charges of mismanagement, and he hoped a committee of the House would be appointed to enquire into the whole matter. If the Minister of Works intended to carry out the recommendation of the report, he would find it result in lamentable failure/

The motion was agreed to. Mr Burns moved for a Select Committee to enquire into the necessity for a Weather Reporting and Storm Signalling Department, also to enquire into the Working of steamers Hinemoa and Stella.

Aagreed to.

The Hon. Mr Reynolds moved — " That a return bo furnished setting forth the amount of town and country land in each Provincial district reserved for educational purposes, particularly whether held by Government, Education Boards, trustees, or coporate bodies. The Hon._ Mr Bowen expected to be able to furnish the information required in a few days. Mr Johnston moved fo" copies of tenders for the_ present contract for conveyance fruni the United Kingdom of immigrants r.nd Government material to be laid before the House.

The copies were laid upon the table. Mr Wakefield moved for a return of the amount of fees levied without the authority of law by the instructions of the SurveyorGeneral during the past year. Mr Reid explained that the practice of charging fees for examining certain plans and map 3 had existed ever since he could recollect. The fact of some inconvenience being caused to the people of Canterbury was due entiifely to a misunderstanding of the circular of instruc tions ; but that was withdrawn, and another more in accordance with what was desired substituted. The object of charging fees was not for revenue, but to prevent the time of valuable officers being taken up and valuable working maps (of which there were no duplicates) becoming dilapidated. They were, however, getting lithographed copies of these maps, so that the public could iuspect them free. The amount realised by fees in Canterbury was L 4 6s 6d— in the whole Colony, L 33. Mr Gisborne protested against such an unconstitutional taxing of Her Majesty's subjects. By what authority was such a tax levied, and under what part of revenue would it come ? Whoever heard of taxation by circular, without even the authority of the Minisier. Motion agreed to.

In the House last evening, Mr Burns moved that steps be taken to prevent members of the Ofcago Harbour Board paying themselves fees, in defiance of the 4th section of the Otago Harbour Board Act, 1876. The hon. member went into the whole (history of the Board and its misdeeds. He wished Government would brine in a Bill to repeal the Ofcjtgo Harbour Board Act, 1876, and put in a few gentlemen to manage the Board's affairs until the new measure was introduced.

The Hon. Mr Reynolds remarked that, as usual, the hon. member for Roslyn had found a mare's nest. All his statements were without any foundation, in fact, the members of the Board never paid themselves two guineas, and had broken no law, and no change iv the law was required. The Hon. Mr M'Lean said when the General Harbour Board Bill was brought down during the session, the mover would have a better opportunity of dealing with the matter. He hoped the resolution would be withdrawn.

Mr Burns reiterated his charges, but as the Government did not see their way to move in this matter, which he regretted, he would withdraw the motion.

Mr Hpdgkinson asked if the Government would c«ul for tenders for the completion of the Riverton and Otautau light railway, and whether it is intended to proceed first with the portion between Riverton and the junction of Otautau <»nd Wallacetown ?

The Hon. Mr Ormond replied that tenders were called for that portion between Riverton and Otautau Junction, but the construction of the other part would not be proceeded with until the first mentioned was completed.

August 3rd.

In the Legislative Council, In reply to Mr Hall, The Hon. Dr Pollen said the Government could not possibly bring in this session a Bill consolidating the law relating to Road Boards. The other business was of little interest.

In the House this afternoon,

In reply to Mr Macandrew's question as to whether the Colony was about to lose the services of Sir J. Vogel, ' The Premier said when the vote for the' Agent General's services came on, he would be prepared to state what were the intentions of the Government in the matter. So far, Sir Julius Vogel afforded every satisfaction to the Government in discharging- the duties of AgentGeneral.

Mr Hodgkinson asked of the Government whether they intended to protect public estate in Southland and other parts of the Colony against the devastation of rabbits.

The^ Premier replied that the Government were in communication with the pastoral tenants to see what could be done in, the matter.

In reply to Mr Travers as to whether the Government proposed to appropriate funds for a road connecting Palmeraton North with the land south of the Manawatu River, The Hon Mr Ormond said the Government hoped to be ablo to propose an appropriation for works of the kind referred to, because that was only one of many of the same kind in the Colony. Bills introduced and read a first time : — Port Chalmers Water Works Bill (Mr Reynolds), Public Recreation Ground and Reserves Bui (Mr Sheehan), Invercargill Gas Works Borrowing Bill (Mr Lumsden), New River Harbour Board Vesting Bill (Mr Lumsden). The Hon. Mr Reid moved the second reading, of the Impounding Bill, which he said was more of a declaratory nature than any altera tion of the existing law. Sir R. Douglas and Mr Stafford suggested' that the BUI, and all of a kindred nature, should be referred to a Select Committee.

The Premier said it wa3 intended to do co. Mr Rees pointed out that this was only tinkering at legiatotion. This question of • the consolidation of the laws of the Colony should be referred to a Commission of Inquiry, so that the House could deal with this and other cognate Bills next session. Mr Gisborne pointed out that the . most proper course under the circumstances would be to pass a short Empowering Bill, instead of attempting to deal with this voluminous and not luminous mass of legislation. Mr Rowe saw no necessity for legislation, the present law was good enough ; besides, no reason was shown by the mover forsaking any change, ,

Mr Stout pointed out certain defects in the drafting of the Bill, and certain important oversights. Mr Woolcock thought the Government was j undertaking too much. These were matters which ought to be left to local bodies, who could deal with them best by bye-laws. _ The Hon. Mr Reid, in reply, said the necessity for the Bill was self-apparent. There were 10 different fencing laws in the Colony, and great confusion was the consequence. He thought that those who were loudest in now condemning the Bill, would be the very first to cry out for a measure modifying these laws if Government had taken no steps in that direction. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be referred to the Select Committee. Tne Hon. Mr Reid moved the second reading of the Fencing Bill, which he said was .very similar in its nature to the previous ..Bill, being merely of a consolidating character. Mr de Lautour objected to the principles of' the Bill altogether, and moved an amendment to the effect that it is not desirable to create a fencing law for the whole Colony, the interests of the different parts not being identical, that local bodies in the different districts should have power to regulate fencing, and that where no fencing laws existed, owners of stock shall keep them on their own land, at their own risk and expense. Mr Seymour, in speaking to the Bill, said t ■that he considered the fencing laws moat important to the Colony. In travelling through America, he saw immense tracts unfenced, and the few horses and cows he saw were tethered, and upon inquiring into the cause of, this, he was informea it was the result of fencing laws, which did not compel anyone to fence. It was different where fencing was enforced. Mr Swanson opposed the Bill. Some of the provisions were calculated to ruin many people, and the law ought to be to make people who desired to keep cattle to keep them on their own land, either by enclosing or tethering them. Why should a man who cultivates flax have to fence his land to prevent hi? neighbour's cattle from trampling it down ? Let those put up fences who want them.

Mr Brown. (Ashley) would support the Bill on account of clause 3, which repealed all fencing laws passed previously. People ought to be compelled to keep their stock on their own ground. One fault of the Bill was perpetrating the obnoxious regulation of the old Provincial laws of Canterbury, by whicu a Crown tenant could give notice to a freehold tenant lo fence, while the freeholder could not notify the' Crown tenant.

Major Russell supported the second reading, though he agreed with much that had fallen from Mr de Lautour.

Sir R. Douglas said the proper thing to be done would be to empower one neighbour to call upon another to fence, and that whatever fence they decided upon should be considered a sufficient fence. 5.30 arriving, interrupted the debate. August 4th. In the House last evening, The debate on the Fencing Bill was continued. Mr Rolleston opposed Mr de Lautour'a amendment. Though be did not consider the Bill exactly what was wanted, he would like to see a clause introduced that would enable the different districts to have what sort of fences they might think best suited to them. Mr Thomson pointed out that owing to the many different requirements in regard to fencing, the Government had a very difficult question before them. The best thing would be to leave the Provincial Ordinances in opera- ! tion.

Messrs Takamoana and Nahe objected to the Bill having anything to do with Native lands. Mr de Lautour divided the Houee, and the Bill was read a second time by 51 against 15. The Hon. Mr Reid moved the second reading of the Sheep and Cattle Bill,* which provides for the eradication of scab in sheep, and ts regulate the inspection and branding of stock. The Bill does not afltect the Diseased Cattle Act, Imported stock are to be allowed to land, but net to travel without first being inspected. A small rate per sheep is to be levied throughout the colony, in order to cover the cost of detecting disease and prevent it spreading. An inspector of stock is to be appointed for each district. The > hon. member said this Bill would abo be submittrd to a. Select Committee. MrSeymour said the Bill was a vast fining machine, the provisions of which would simply mean ruin to a great many, without accomplishing what it was intended for. The honourable member pointed out that while the provisions of the Bill would be good in Otago, where little or no scab existed, in Marlborough, where more or less scab constantly existed, the Bill would prove a very ereat hardship. The inspector, too, had too much power. He feared there was too much paste and scissors about tho Bill,

The Bill was read a second time and orderedto be committed to a Select Committee. £ '■ ' "' The Hon. Mr Reid moved the second reading ' of the Slaughter-houses Bill, the chief object of ' which, he said, was to place the control of Slaughter-homes in the hands of the people of ? the localities. This Bill he proposed to be re- ' ferred to a Select Committee. ' '• ' Mr Stout protested against the Government sending all their Bills to a Select Committee. - They appeared to have no confidence in their .' own drafting, and inflicted double trouble upon the House. They did the work in Committee < first, and then had to go all through it again in the House. * -

The Bill was read a second time.

The Hon, Mr Bowen moved the second ■ reading of the Education Bill without remark.- • Mr Bastings moved that the debate be' ad-* ' journed till that day week, as he had ascer- ' tainedthat the Bill had not reached parts of Otago yet. He did this out of no hostility to ■ the Bill, which he would heartily support. ' «' ' Considerable discussion ensued upon the "• question of adjourning the debate. - " ' ! • Sir George Grey and Messrs Macandrew,*-' Reader Wood, Montgomery, Reynolds, Rees, supported Mr Bastings's motion for delay on the ground they would* like to" have opinions from different parts of the Colony.' - i The Premier, and Messrs Sharp, Mason, and Murr&y-Aynsley opposed. The Honl Mr Bowen offered to take the voices on the matter. - <> - „ > Mr Wakefield supported the adjournment on the ground that the Bill should not be gone oh with while a resolution was on the paper, which amounted practically to a vote of want of con- > fidence. The debate was adjourned on - the ■ voices till that day week at 7.30. - '? On the motion for going into Committee .of Supply, ' " Sir George Grey called upon the Government to postpone the orders of the day, and go onwith Mr Rees's motion regarding the* Waka " Maori.

Mr Bees also followed with a similar request. , Mr Woolcock here rose and. proceeded to " move the motion relating to altering the inciddence of taxation which he had previously given notice of ; he would do so upon the motion for the House going into Committee of supply. The hon. gentleman gave the Premier 'credit for ingenuity in making out a good case for himself in his financial arrangements, though ' he disagreed with much that was there set out. - He deprecated the practice of ; too implicitly.' following the teachings of political economist*,' who could know nothing of the different' cir-" cumstar.ces which were found in' new and 'grow ]1 ing communities. He had no fear of the Colony ever becoming unable to bear its burdens. Auhe argued for was a fairer adjustment of taxa» tion than existed *t present. There were 112 landowners who owned not much -less than' about ten millions worth of land. It- was only ;. fair they should pay more towards the revenue than 112 mechanics, yet these landowners werenot called upon to pay more 'than' labourers. " .The practical result of reducing the 'Customs', duties would be to cheapen the necessaries of j life; Poor men were .now' taxed 20 "per cent 1 ' upon their sugar, and 30 on their tea.': 1 The'; honourable gentlemen then quoted statistics to': show that a very large revenue could be deriyecT' ,by taxing the land, and that .trade and com- l mcroe would be. greatly stimulated thereby. ' ' ■' On the House resuming after a half hour's '• adjournment, and -',""''." r ; Mr Woolcock's amendment having been put,The Premiersaid thejGovernment was placed ' in a false position by Mr Reea's 'motion.' ) Though he (Mr Rees) had disclaimed' any in,tention of making it a no confidence motion, yet ' that evening, upon moving to go iuto ! Supply, ' 'the honourable gentleman said thafc'' ; i€ was ' practically a motion of no confidence, and thi leader of the Opposition said "Hexe, hea'n" ' .The Government had no objection, and asaum-' ing' that if was a 1 no. confidence motion,- they" were, prepared to accept the challenge" thrown 1 ' .Out, and were anxious the matter should be'" settled there* and then.' He wished fcheleader ' of the Opposition, then, to say 'what the inten- V tion of the motion really was. ' .'. ■ '. ' • „1* ' "> Mr Stout protested against the Opposition being called upon to define what a want of confidence motion was. ■ ' w ■ The Hon. Mr Whitaker pointed out that the Government were placed in a peculiar position. ' At first the mover of the motion said it ,was.' not intended as a want of confidence motion, * and yet that evening leading members of the' Opposition said that all other business should be postponed until the resolution was disposed ' of. Sir G. Grey not speaking, Mr Sheehan said the question was one that should not be discussed at all just then. It was subjudice, and was therefore improper to' -be discussed.

The Hon. Mr Reid said that although the mover protested, when moving his motion, that it was a simple question ot justice between man ' and man, yet that evening the expressions of the leader of the Opposition and others of that party, in saying it was a disgrace for the. Government to proceed with business' while that motion ramained undisposed of, was a broad challenge to the Government, which! 1 they felt bound to acceDt v '

Mr Gi&borne said he was going to v vote: against both Mr Rees's resolutions, yet: he wanted to know why the Government askecl ' the mover of the motion whether it was' intended as a vote of want of confidence or not. Why, the terms of the resolutions spoke for themselves. They were plain and specific, and f not to be mistaken. They were a motion of' want of confidence. *

Mr Thomson followed, referring to the speech of Mr Woolcock on incidence of taxation, but entirely avoided the main question of want of confidence^ • ■, •■

Mr Bastings continued, and advocated a land tax, and reduction of duties on necessaries. : Mr Button advocated a tax on unimproved laiidt, and repeated the • arguments' he used 'in. the same connection during last session., -Thehon. member would also support an income' tax.

Mr Fitzroy thought the Hous9 wa3 wandering from the main question, which he understood to have reference to a vote of want of * confidence motion, and was surprised that the. leader of the Opposition had " slunk out of. the House" as if afraid to face the question raised by the Premier. Mr Reader Wood threw the blame upon the Government for raising this discossion. ■ The Hon. Ivlr M'Lean pointed out that the " Government had not desired to go out of ths ordinary routine of business, but it was perfectly impossible to go on after the extraordinary language and allegations of several members of. the Opposition. Mr Rees, who followed, in a long speech, took occasion to remark that false statements , were sen!; Home by the Government for publication in the London Times. Last year, they said they had a credit balance of L 72,000, and this year they said there was a, balance of L 142,000 to their credit. Both statements were false, and were only made to influence the London' money market. The whole thing was a sham, and he wondered how members could support such a crooked statement.

The debate was adjourned till 7.30 on Tues. day next. %hQ Housa adjourned $t 12.45,

August 7th. In the Legislative Council, The business was not very important. The Destitute Persons Act was introduced and read • first time The Misdemeanors and Other Offenders Bill, read a second time. The Census Bill was recommitted, on the motion of the Hon. Dr Menzies, to have the word " February," in 19fch clause, altered to " March."

In the House this afternoon, The Hon. Mr M'Lean, replying to Colonel Russell, said that during the recess they would consider the matter of the inauguration of a •ystem of parcel-post, similar to tnat now earned on in England and India. In reply to Mr Wason, The Hon. Mr Ormond said N.Z. coal would have been tried upon the Government railways, bnt that the Company had # not sent •amples of theirs for trial. Instructions, however, had again been sent, with the object of giving it a triaL Tlie Hon. Mr Ormond, in reply to Mr Wason, said it was intended to increase the rolling stock on the Canterbury railways, and they expected shortly to be in a position to be able to meet all the demands of the traffic.

BUls read a first time :— The Crown Reserve Act' Amendment Bill ; the Land Bill.

August Bth.

In the Legislative Council, The Hon. Dr Pollen, in reply to a question, ■aid the Government did intend during the session to introduce a Bill for the appointment of a Commission of Trustees to take over -estates held under grant from the Crown upon trust by various religious denominations for charitable and educational purposes. The Hon. Dr Pollen introduced a Bill, which was read a first time, intituled a Bill to reserve out of the waste lands of the Crown in Canterbury certain lands as compensation to Kaiapoi Natives, and to make provision respecting the title thereto, and dealing therewith. la Committee on the Forest Trees Planting Bill an amendment was introduced which will enable a person entitled to a bonus for planting to exercise it in any part of the Colony, instead of being restricted to one district The Hon. Dr -Menzies'a motion in Committee on the Census Bill, to substitute March lor .February, was lost.

1 In the House last evening, ' . In continuation of the debate on the Native Land Court BilL Mr Taiwiti approved of some portions of the BilL He would support it, but he wanted more power given to Native assessors. Mr Bunny would not oppose the second reading, bat, if the Bill was not modified in ■Committee, he would endeavour to have it thrown out.

Mr Ballance expressed his surprise that the Premier should have given his countenance to the measure, considering that he said in 1865 that the Bill then introduced did not enable the man of limited means to acquire Native land, ■ ' The amendment was put. ~ Mr Travers opposed the BilL Mr Nake opposed the BilL He had le:ters -from the Nanvei, who were all opposed to the Bill, (hat they would sooner have their lands taken by the Russians and Turks than that 'theyihould lose it by that BilL Mr Taiaroa said the Bill ought to be called a Bill to take away the land of the Maori. Hitherto, he had been a supporter of the Government, but he never knew them to introduce such a measure before. The Government ought to take out the Bill, and in fact, wipe oat the Native Land Court too.

, Mr Stout said it was extraordinary neither Government nor any one of their supporters .were able to say a single word in favour of their measure. What troubled him more was that one of their supporters brought forward a motion for them to withdraw the Bill. They seemed to be in a most helpless condition. The two principles which should underlie any -Native Land Bill were: — Lsfr. Respect to the Tights of the Natives. 2nd. The promotion of - colonisation. Bnt the Bill was without those principles. The Natives were a less provident race than Europeans ; and to throw open their lands to public competition would result in making them a pauper and disaffected race, whom the Colony would have to support. The system of allowing land to be purchased by people with money tended to put a stop to all colonising. The Nelson district was not the ■only one in the Colony ruined by being bought §p by moneyed men. The public estate of auterbury was ruined by the same system, and by " spotting" and "gridironing." Italy was ruined through large landed estates, and Prussia became the ruler of Germany when she cut up the large landed estates. Ministers should remember that the land question did not cease when the land was all sold. They would find that the land question would only then begin. He hoped the Government would take the Bill back. It was taking away the last shred of the Public Works and Immigration Policy. They undertake to acquire landed estate for North Island, but this Bill was a practical admission that they could not do so. This was another instance of the way Government failed to keep their word in anything. They had no policy — no backbone. The Hon. Mr Reid could not discover what the Canterbury or Otago land dealings had to ■do with a Native Land BilL Since becoming connected with the «dmiiristration of affairs he gave more attention to this question than . before, and he found that it was impossible for Government to continue the present system of Native Land purchase. He did not care what Government was in power; they could not exercise sufficient control. Last session the decision come to was that Government should introduco a Bill that would simplify the process of acquiring Native lands while ensuring a fair price for them. He believed the Bill "before them did all that. Why, for years the .constant cry of the House was to let the Natives sell direct to the Europeans without any intervention. The details of the Bill might be amended, but not its principles. Ha thought a provision might be introduced which would limit the quantity of land that could be purchased by any single individual He did not see how the Bill could injuriously affect Otago. Whatever they might do, it was impossible Government coald continue its system r>i land purchase. After the usual adjournment, Mr Bunn/ announced that although in his speesh he said he would support the reading, yet the amendment of the member for Rangitikei so fully met the case that he would support it Mr Hislop urged the acceptance of the Amendment by the Government or its leference to a Select Committee, as they did with other Bills with amendments carried. What did Government propose to do ? He would like to know, too, whether the rumour was true that the Government were divided in opinion upon the Bill, and if they intended to leave all the responsibility of it to rest upon the shoulders of one. He afro wanted the Government to answer the arguments urged against the Bill by his side of the House.

Mr Sees went at length into the history of our relations with the Maoris to show that the great question to them was land, and out of that originated the King movement.

Mr Kelly moved the adjournment of the debate. The debate was adjourned till Friday. The House then (11.45 p.m.) adjourned.

In the Housa this afternoon, Mr Fox presented several numerously signed petitions in relation to thelicensinjt laws. Mr Barff gave notice to ask whether the Government intended establishing a School of Mines for New Zealand.

Mr Hamlin gave notice to introduce a Bill amending the Medical Practitioners Act. The Hon. Mr M'Lean said, in reply to Mr Swanson, that they would have a repeating office established at Newton.

In reply to Mr Richardson, Tho Hon. Mr Ormond said the weekly system of accounts had been introduced on the recommendation of the Railway Commission, but instructions had been given to railway officers to report on the working, and, when they reported, the Government would be able to decide as to the best system to adopt. The Hon. Mr Whitaker was understood to say, in reply to Mr Bastings, that provision would be made in the Amended Counties Bill for giving borrowing powers to Counties. Mr Gisborne raked what the Government intended to do about giving effect to the recommendations of Dr Skae regarding the Lunatic Asylums. The Hon. Mr Bowen said they would as soon as possible adopt the improvements recommended by Dr Skae. Provision would also be made for extending the accommodation of the Asylums. In reply to Mr Gisborne, The Premier said the amount paid by the Government as compensation to the Provincial officers whose services were dispensed with was LI 2,719 13s Ud.

Mr Rolleston asked whether the Government intended to propose further compensation to Provincial officers who have lose their offices beyond that already given by law, as was promised by Sir Julius Vogel. The Premier replied that the feelfag of the House last session was against such proceeding, but in cases of particular hardship, the Goyernment would be prepared to consider them. In reply to Mr Stout, The Hon. Mr Bowen said if the Inspector of Lunatic Asylums reported favourably as to the suitability of the Asylum reserve in Waikouaiti district, it was proposed to draft off at once a number of patients from the Dunedin Asylum.

The Premier, in replying to a question, said LISOO had been paid to Mr Edward M'Glashan for the production of 50 torn, of gray paper. Replying to a question, The Hon. Mr Ormond said he hoped to be able to make the Public Works Statement on Friday. The District Railways Bill was read a first time, also several private Bills. Mr Macandrew moved his rssolutions with regard to the railways for opening up the interior aad outlying districts of Otago. He submitted that his proposals could not fail to commend themselves to anyone acquainted with Otago, and to each member of the House who wished to do justice to his position a» well as to that part of the Colony which in the past had contributed the lion's share to the revenue ef the Colony, and which, by carrying out these works, would be able to contribute still more in the future. There were two million acres not alienated from the Crown, and at the very lowest estimate these were worth L2,ooo,ooo— twice as much as would be .required for the work. The hon. gentleman then went on to show how large a population could be placed upon the lands on deferred payments system, on farms of 100 acres ov so. He held it to be a to think that the families could not make a good living on less than 200 acres. The hen. gentleman gave minute particulars as to the routes of the different lines he proposed, and of the nature of the country through which they ran. To carry out his proposals, they would have 330 miles of railway, without costing the Colony a penny. If these lines were made, the public estate of Otago would be worth five or six millions more than it was now, without taking into account their value as a work of colonisation, He was glad to hear the Premier the other evening state the proceeds of the land would be spent in the district in which it was raised, and he now gave the Premier an opportunity of giving practical effect to the doctrine he laid down. He hoped the House would not leave undone what Otago herself would have done bad not the power been taken out of her hands when the political millenium was ushered in. There was no difiiculty ; they had only to dispose of portions of the lands, placing them in the market to meet the cost of contracts an they wore taken up. He knew that private individuals could be found who would undertake the work, but he did not approve of that method. The Hod. Mr Ormond said he could not but be struck, when listening to the honourable member, with the fact that there were several other parts of the colony that might just as reasonably urge similar claims. It was all very well for the hon. member to say that these lines would only cost so much ; but, from their experience of the cost of railways, be must disagree with the hon. member. He questioned the wisdom of throwing so large quantities of land into the market in so short a time. They had now in hand a number of railways and public works that a great many people thought were quite as much as the country couid bear at present, and that their proper course was to go on quickly with what they had in hand. There would be half a million spent in Otago duriug the year, and he thought that was pretty fair. The Government intended, in a Bill they were bringing down, to give facilities for the construction of railways to any district that was able to pay for them, and he thought that was as far as they ought to

Mr Seymour moved an amendment to the effect that the House should also order the construction of several lines in Marlbovough. He did this, as the mover said justice should be done to all alike. Mr Creighton suggested that the people of the localities should bear the cost of surveying any branch line required, set apart so much land for their construction, and then go to the Government with their proposals. Mr Curtis moved an amendment which, in effect, was to make Mr Macandrew's motion re *vr " Colon y>" instead of Otago. Mr de Lautour said it was clear from what had fallen from the Government, that the amendment of Mr Curtis was most necessary. It was now perfectly clear that so far as the supremacy and riches of Otago were concerned, Bhe was to be blotted out by the House. At last the House had approached the real business of the session, namely, log rolling for railways. The request of Mr Macandrew was not i -r gr ? nted umril tlieir laud funcl wa& &ane, and if that was the way things were to be managed ho would say, perish the Land Fund, and would vote to-morrow for a common land fund. A Bill would shortly be introduced (if Government would allow it) to enable localities to construct their own raslway3 out of their Land Fund.

Mr Stout protested against the practice of spoiling motions which ought to bu decided on tneir merits by making au addition to them.

Why not bring them ferward as separate motions ? If they went on that way, the session would probably last six months. He hoped Mr Seymour would withdraw the amendment, and let the resolution be decided on its merits. It laid down a new and sound principle, that the land should be made to pay the cost of railways. Mr Gisborne pointed out that the real question at issue was the localisation of the land fund. Government, of course, always advocated localisation, but they acted— communism. They laid their bands upon the land fund of Canterbury and Otago. It was no use pushing such a resolution unless they were guaranteed their land fund. How was the House to decide railways that were desirable merely because an hon. member said so, without being offered any information. He could not, therefore, vote for the resolution. The West Coast had been treated with more injustice in the matter of railways than any other part of the Colony. If thsre was one railway more than another that lequired to be constructed, it was a line between Grey and Hokitika. Mr Hodgkinson thought all railways in course of construction should be completed before going on with others. The Hon. Mr Reynolds hoped both amendments would be withdrawn, though he did not think the resolution would be carried.

The Hon. Mr Reid said the resolution had been called an Otago Public Works Policy. It was so, and it was a pity that that policy was not brought forward in 1870, when it no doubt would have done a great deal of good. The thing was quite impossible now. Notwithstanding the assertion of the mover to the contrary, it would be necessary to borrow very largely if the proposed lines were to be constructed. Besides, if any scheme of the kind was to be carried out, it must be of a general character. The House was of too jealous a character to allow a resolution dealing with only a particular portion of the Colony to be passed. If they wished to inspire confidence in those who lent them money, they should proceed steadily and carefully, as they were doing, and would he hoped continue to do. He did not know how it was possible to dispose of the lands for the construction of the lines, and at the same time secure an advisable class of settlers. It would be far better to dispose of the land by deferred payments to suitable settlers, than be too greedy of cash from some others. He thought the resolution premature, and would oppose it. Mr Mandera supported the resolution. Mr Montgomery wanted the resolution decided on its merits. The Government ought at once and decidedly say the resolution was outside their policy, and could not be entertained.

Mr Fiaher wished the resolution withdrawn. It was a new public works policy, and should apply to the whole Colony. The debate was interrupted by 5.30.