The General Assembly. THE ABOLITION BILL.

Otago Witness, Issue 1243, 25 September 1875, Page 8

The General Assembly.

THE ABOLITION BILL.

[By Electric Telegraph.]

Wellington, September 16' th. The House of Representatives resumed at 7.30 last evening in Committee upon tbe Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill. A long and sharp discussion ensued in>oix clause 8, which provides for tho repeal of section 191 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1867, substituting in lieu thereof a clause providing that no bye-law can come into effect without firbt being submitted to the Government. Messrs I'eid, Grey, Sheehan, White, Macandiew, and others opposed the clause, and Mr .Stout moved its amendment by striking out all reference to the Governor. Mr Bowen, Brown (A.shlej'), Cuth bertson, Wakefield, and Riclumlhon (who had to argue on the Bill) defended the necessity for it. The clause was postponed.

Clause 11, providing for the election of mayor by ratepayers, Mr Stout moved that no ratepayer should have more than one vote, no matter how much property he might have in one or several wards. A great deal of discussion followed. Tlio.se in favour of the amendment arguing that the electors should have no more votes in electing a mayor than a superintendent. Those opposed considered tho two descriptions of elections totally different, inasmuch, as the one office was political and the other non-political, and that to allow plurality of votes for a mayor as for city councillor was only granting what the rights of property fairly demanded.

A division was called for, and the amendment carried by 23 to l'J. Progress was reported.

Mr Ballance moved the second reading of the Municipal Loan Bill. According to the Municipal Corporations Act of ISG7 the power to contract loans was placed in the hands of Corporations, but this power had not be?n taken advantage of, and remained a dead letter on the Statute Book. The consequence was that ever since the House had been deluged with small borrowing Bilk of which the House had no knowledge, and over which it exercised no control. The time had therefore arrived when a general measure was required to prevent the necessity of coming to that House on triflin" occasions, and for small loans. The Bill pr£ vided for the issue of debentures by Corporations and the creation of a sinking fund, but provided that no holder of debentures or coupons should have any claim upon the ordinary or other revenue of the Colony or Province. He thought the passing of such a measure would place Municipal Corporations in a more independent position than they now occupied. What he chiefly desired was, that the House would affirm the principle of the Bill by reading it a second time. He was not anxious to press it any further this session, if Government would bring in next session a consolidating measure for a Corporation Act, and embody the the principle of his Bill in it.

Major Atkinson said there was no doubt the measures relating to Corporations required consolidation. The Government approves of the principles of this measure. It was time those bodies were allowed more freedom than they nowenjoved, and the Government intended to introduce a measure with that object. The House was indebted to the honourable member for bringing the matter forward. Ho believed that if the people were only made acquainted with the nature of the burdens they were about to place upon themselves by loans they might be fairly trusted not to over-burden themselves.

Mr Joseph Shephard protested against giving any local body unrestrained power to go into the money market Mr T. "L. Shepherd strongly supported the measure as one that would become absolutely necessary. After the abolition of the Provinces they would find out then that they would require more Bills of the same kind in order to give the people local self-government. As long as the credit of the Colony was not pledged, Municipalities might safely be allowed to borrow, if creditors were willing to lend. Mr White strongly supported the Bill, as it rendered Municipalities more independent of that House than they were before. # Mr Heid regretted tho member for Eangitikei was going to, trust to the Government to bring down a consolidating measure, aa he might have to wait a long time for it. He approved of the general principle of the Bill, though he objected to some of its details. He hoped the Bill would be proceeded with that session .

Mr Macandrew also supported the Bill, and hoped it would be proceeded with. He pointed out the glaring inconsistency of preventing Provincial Councils borrowing while every little Municipality was allowed the privilege. Mr Sheehan heartily approved of the Bill, and. would be happy to assist in making it workable.

Mr Waled wanted to know whether the State ought hot to borrow the money and then lend it to the Municipalities requiring it, making a small charge to indemnify the expense incurred in raising the money, Mr Andrew hoped the Bill would not go beyond the second reading, and that the Government would, next session, embody the Bill in a consolidating measure. Mr O'Neill asked what check there was upon Corporations as to the amount they might borrow.

Mr Ball.ince said there was a double check. The hiu'ne&ses, iv the first place, who would not be likely to exceed their powers of payment ; and secondly, the lender would not be likely to part with his money unless the security was considered good. There was also this security : That the loan should be a first charge upon the revenue. As to proceeding with the measure that session, he might say that the Municipal Corporation Laws of the Colony had arrived at a time when a consolidating measure was required. If, however, the House was desirous he should proceed with the Bill, he would have no objection to do so. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday next. The House adjourned at 1.45 a.m. In the House of Representatives, at 2.30 today, Mr Taiaroa gave notice to ask leave to introduce a Maori Representation Amendment Act. In reply to Mr Rolleston, Mr Bowen said the Government did not intend giving any representation to the New Zealand University next Parliament. He doubted whether the University was yet established on such a footing as to warrant their giving it representation in Parliament. In due time, however, the Government would be prepared to consider the matter.

In reply to Mr Brown (Tuapeka), Major Atkinson said the Government would not consent to alter the second clause of the Abolition Bill, so that it should not come into operation until the passing of a resolution by the new Parliament asking the Governor to give effect to it. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :— A Bill to amend the Coroners Act, 1867 (Pyke), Anaiomy Bill, and Neglected Children Act Amendment Bill (Bowen), Biddle Land Grant Bill. Succession Bill, and Piako Land Exchange Billfl (1 and 2, Atkinson). lJ j %!? 1 $ 1 ? HH £ l^ e ffoir) 5 mil} Ctomnjittw uno« the A!;cJiUso Bill,

Mr Stout at once moved that the title of the Bill be altered to the Two Provinces Bill,. 1875. There was nothing in the Bill to justify the title, which was at present a misnomer. Mr Wood entirely sympathised with the amendment. The Bill only tended towards a separation, and the nature of the Bill should be made clear on the face of it.

The motion was negatived on the voices. Clause 2 was struck out. An amendment was made in clause 3, (iuterpretating), bringing within the meaning of the term "governing body" any persons or bodies having control of the government of local affairs. On the motion of Mr Stout, the ktter part of the clause was struck out, thus preveiitiiv the General Government Buildings being clawed as " public works."

Clause 4 — "Provinces to be abolished"— Mai or Atkinson moved the first three Jines be struck out, and the following words inserted : " The second section of the Constitution Act is here I)}'1 )}' repealed, and that the Provinces of Auckland, Taranaki, Hawkesßay, Wellington, Canterbury, Otago, Nelson, Westlnnd, and Marlborough be, and are hereby abolished. Sir George Grey pointed out that tbe clause had been inoperative for yenrs, and it mattered little whether it was struck out or not. He, however, moved that the word "Auckland" ba .'••truck out, a* he believed his right to doubt the legality of their proceedings in future. He understood fiom the Minister of Justice that the Government were about to obtain an Imperial opinion on this question, though the House had never been made acquainted as to whether such an opinion had been taken. As he intended to test the legality of abolition when the proper time came, he moved the word Auckland be struck out.

The Speaker suggested that the difficulty would be overcome by inserting the following words :— " On the day next succeeding the last day of the first session of the new Parliament tho Provinces shall be abolished. "

Sir Georsre Grey's amendment — that Auckland be struck out — was put and negatived on the voices.

The doors havin? been locked, Mr Stout moved that the word "Otago" be left out, and called for a division, the result being 53 against and 11 for. «'hose for the motion wore Sir George Grey, Messrs Macandrew, Sheehan, Swanson, Thomson, Dignan, Brown (Tuapeka), Reid, Stout, and Murray. Clause 6 was amended and passed. Mr Wood, moved that clause 5 be expunged. Mr t O'Conor moved a long amendment, providing for the creation of new Provincial districts of certain area on the application of three-fifths of the electors of the House of Representatives. After some discussion, Mr O'Conor withdrew his amendment. Mr Wood's amendment was then put, and was strongly supported by Sir George Grey. Mr Cuthberteon moved as an amendment, that Southland suid the municipality of Queenstown be included as a Provincial district. He did not think any difficulty would be found in the way of a financial adjustment. Mr Macandrew would support the amendment if it was extended so as to include Dunedin. When he thought of what Southland was before the re-union, and what it was now, he could scarcely find words to characterise the ingratitude of the So ithland people. Mr Stout would support the amendment if the Provincial district were reduced to what it Was before the re-union. He agreed with the member for Port Chalmers, that Otago had trained nothing by her connection with Southland,

Mr Macandrew took occasion to explain that a strict account between Otago and Southland had been kept, and that showed that when the Southland railways, the cost of which was to be met out of the Otago Treasury, were completed. Southland would be indebted to Otacro about L 120.000. Sir Billon Bell pointed out that Southland since her re-union contributed L 340,000 to the Provincial Treasury of Otasro. Major Atkinson and Mr Buckland hoped the member for Invercargill would withdraw his amendment.

A long discussion ensued amongst the Otago members, the main points of which were the re-union of Otaco and Southland, and which territory profited most by the arrangement. The discussion was cut short by 5,30.

m, -n , . Wi^ixgton, September 17th. The Public Health Act was read a third time.

The Electric Telegraph Bill was read a third time.

The Oamara Gas Works Bill was committed, and ordered to be further considered on Tuesday. The Council then adjourned*

In the House of Representatives, at 7.30 last evening, the debate was resumed and continued on Clause 5.

Mr Cutlibertson withdrew his amendment regarding the Provincial district of Southland, and the clause paasedi Clause 6, allowing the present Provincial laws to remain m force till altered, aiid Clause 7, providing for Superintendents and Provincial Councils to hold office, were passed unameuded.

Clause 8, making Superintendents' powers regarding waste lands veat in the Governor was strongly opposed by several members, and a long discussion followed. The Government explained there would be no inteiference with education before next session. Mr Macandrew then moved a proviso to be added to the clause placing the control of education in Otago in the hands of the Education Board.

Major Atkinson, m the course of his remarks explanatory of the ideas of tho Government, used the expression that Provinciali&m was the worst form of Centralism. Mr Macandrew then moved an amendment to prevent any break in the machinery of education in Otago by placing the control in the hands of the local board. The Government disclaimed any intention of making any change at present in the educational systems of the Colony, least of all in the excellent arrangements in Otago. A long discussion ensued upon this point, the Government ultimately accepting the suggestion of Mr Kolleston'a to make Mr Macandrew's amendment apply to the whole Colony, and an agreement was come to whereby Mr Macandrew withdrew his amendment upon a promise from the Government to bring down a new clause to meet the requirements of the case. v

Mr Pyke opposed this and divided the House, but was defeated by 30 to 5 Clause 10 raised a warm discussion, which at onetime looked as if the good understanding arrived at between the Government and the Opposition was about to be destroyed. Mr Reid, in criticising the clause, said the Government were attempting to force upon the Opposition an illiberal interpretation of the arrangement come to between the Oppbsition and the Government. Those clauses bouW the Opposition to agree to Provincial Councils not meeting again and to no new contracts being entered upon. But mho Understood it,

On the House resuming at 7,80 last evening? after half an hodr'a further, discussion on clauso 12 of the Abolition Bill, it was parsed without amendment.

Clause U -A long discussion ensued as td whether officials of Provincial Governments of abolished Provinces should be placed in the 1 same position as Civil servants of the General Government in respect to pensions, &c ; ' ~. T .k c Ho* 1 - Treasurer pointed out that by the Civil Service Act of ISOG the Provincial officers, when taken over by the General Government! were placed in the same position as officers df the General Government, so far as their time in computing the amount due as to compeii* sation for loss of office was concerned, but that the question of pensions must be dealt with by a separate Act. The honourable member said he would undertake to give the House an opportunity during the present session of expressing opinions as to the question of awarding pensions to Provincial Officers. The words in the first line within one year were struck out, and m the sixth line after the wcrd "Colony "the 1 following words, on the motion of Mr O'Conor, were inserted:-" Such sum as he may be entitled to under tile terms of any agreement entered into previous to 1875 and in default df any such agreement then." After two hours' discussion, the clause, as above amended, was passed. Clause 14. —Mr Reid suggested that the license fees and fines for scab in sheep should be paid direct to the Municipalities and Kottd Boards instead of to the public account, •rfJSn. «1 T°^ a "? amen dment in the clause gl m? g < S ecfc t S, the above suggestion. The Hon. Treasurer said the Government) would accept the amendment Mr Harrison protested against license and" other fees being handed over to municipalities, ll n a H e rin nn n nn th \} lee^ 6 fees amounted td nearly LIO,OOO. Municipalities did not want so large a revenue. It was much more wanted out-districts.

An amendment, proposed by Mr Shephard, Nelson, that publicans' licenses should be mitted, was lost by 40 to 9. ft*o£s 0d ' S amendmen t was then carried on

A verbal alteration was made in the third line of the second paragraph of the clause. The Provided all fines and penalties inflicted fttf aSCninSed.^ hM * * The Chairman repotted progress at 1 a,Jn/, with leave to sit again on 1 Tuo&w" ' The Hguse then adjourned ffiHtintwl w pafl 10,)

Mr Sheehan and Mr Stout toik ,the same view, and aunounced they would prefer reverting to the position they were in last week, and fight the matter out.

Mr Montgomery thought they were merely splitting straws. Mr Rolleston said there was an evident misunderstanding as to the nature of the agreement come to, which was that the Government were to take steps to protect the Colonial chest by having the power to renew contracts entered into this session. He thought it a very neces ■ sary provision.

After a crpod deal of explanation from Messrs M'Lean, Fitzherbert, and others regarding the nature of the agreenieut come to, clauses 10 and 11 were passed without progress being reported as was moved for by Mr Stout. The House adjourned at 12.40. The following are the proposed new clauses to the Bill :—

2S. (1.) Section 17 of Constitution Act is hereby repealed. (2. ) It shall not be lawful for the bupermteiident of any Province to convene i^iovmcial Councils thereof, or for any Provincial Council to meet in session, before da,y next after last day of the first session of next or the Sl3 ™ l Parliament of New Zealand. 29. Iso contract or engagement made or entered into after the fifteenth day of September, one thousand eight hundred and .seventy-five by the Superintendent of any Province as buMl Superintendent, whereby or in respect whereof* any public money, exceeding in amount LIOO, shall or may become payable, shall have any iorce or effect unless the money required to meet expenditure, to be thereby incurred has been duly appropriated: and the Governor shall have been satished, previously to makin" or entering into such contract or engagement, SSi y0"y 0 "" 11.11 1.1? 111 * 1 rewn " e receivable before the 30th day oi June, 187 C, will be sufficient to meet such expenditure. . 30. Sections 2S and 29 of this Act shall come into operation on the day on which it is assented to by the Governor, in the name and on behalf of her Majesty, and the remainirg sections of this Act shall come mto operation on the day next after the last day of the first session of the next or sixth Parliament of New Zealand

In the House of Representatives, at 2.30 toy» „ Mr Taiaroa got leave to introduce a Maori Jieprespatation Act Amendment and Continuanceßill. It was read a first time. 51r Keynolds's Otago Harbour Board Empowenug Bill also the Clutha Trust Reserves .Bill, were lead a first time. rnifS/ I*2^?*1 * 2^?* vl^ 1 ' ¥ Ore B o^ int ° Committee on the Abolition Bill, he wished to make a complaint m reference to tampering with the Press Agency a telegrams, of putting words into the mouth of a member, which had the effect of holding him to scorn and ridicule. He quoted from the Evening Star, of Gth September, re Sir G-. Grey, saying he, for one, would taken by the United States against the mother f? U ™ t£* i h " nourab le member then quoted from Hansard, showing that the words used by fs^,?S e^ rey^ ad £ een Sailed, and in the issue of the Southern Cross, a more foul perversion he had never seen. It was accusing Sir G. trt-ey of being a traitor to his Queen. The honourable member then read a memo., statins? that the words had been interpolated by the Southern Cross. The honourable member re. ferred to the reduced rate at which Press tele, grams were sent, and animadverted strongly on the information being sent at (he may say)' public coat for the purpose of abusing i.ublic men. The honourable member then adverted to tnefoul abuse which certain portions of the New Zealand Press had heaped upon Sir G. Grey, because he had dared to bring forward a .pave charge of public maladministration. The honourable member finished by hoping the House would take the matter into consideration. < The Speaker said the honourable member should make a motion. Mr Fitzherbert replied that he thought the discussion would be sufficient or perhaps better than any action of the House. He would, there. 7 th"]! mm ° Ve> pro f anim > the adjournment

., I! |P.. H « fent into Committee on the Abolition Bill after about an hour and ft half's discussion on the subject brought forward by Mr lutzherbert. Messrs Murray and Stont almost entirely occupied the time till 5 30 in discussing sub-sections in clause 12, No pro* gresa whatever was made in the Bill this after* noon.