PRESBYTERY OF DUNEDIN.

Otago Witness, Issue 1243, 25 September 1875, Page 4

PRESBYTERY OF DUNEDIN.

An adjourned meeting of the Dunedin Presbytery took place on Monday. Present: Ministers—The Ilev. Mr Watt (Moderator) in the chair; the itevs. Blake, Copland, Johnston, Lindsay Mackie, M'Navtghton, Sutherland, and Dr Stuart. Elders— Messrs. D. Borrie^ Currie, and King.

THE UNION QUESTION. Discussion on the question of the union of the Presbyterian Church of Otago with that of the Northern Church took place on a motion by the Rev. Dr Stuart. This question is one which was referred by the Synod to the Presbyteries of the Province for their consideration. The report which the Union Committee had made at last meeting of Synod on the question was as follows ;—

Your Committee have to report that the following suggestions, agreed to by the Committee, were transmitted to the Union Committei of the Northern Church— viz.: " Ist. Ihat the basis of Union, so far as concerns the subordinNte standards, be the Westminster standard*, witn the usual qualifying clause as to rights of conscience. 2nd. That for the first year Synods should have supreme jurisdiction in all matters of discipline, on the understanding that at the end of that periud this arrangement inav continue for a longer time, should any of the Synod* aesire it. 3rd. That with respect to the existing difference of practice between the two Churches as regards psalmody, the Committee recommend that this matter be left to each Synod to determine for itself. 4th. That with respect to all properties held in trust each Synod should continue to hold such properties, subject in all respects to the same trusts as before. sth. That the question of the mude of ministerial support be left for at least the first five years to the respective Synods. 6th. Ttiat some scheme of united action for church extension throughout New Zealand be devised, buch scheme to be under the control of the Church Assembly. 7th. That there be common Foreign and ilaori mission schemes. Bth. That th-re be biennial assemblies in the meantime." 'Jhe Union Committee of the Northern Church have transmitted the followintrresolution of the General Assembly agreed to at the Ute meeting- viz., "The report ot the Committee on the union with the Synod of Otago and e-out.ul.uid having been read, that it be received ; and that the Assembly express its willirgness to acquiesce generally in the proposed scheme of union forwarded from Otago, and that it suggests to the uiago bynod the advisability of jfiving parties appeal in cases of discipline and doctrine, and declares jtseli ready to bring the principle of synodical action into opera-ion throughout the Church in order to facilitate the completion of the union." After some discussion, your Committee agreed not to concur in this recommendation, but to suggest that for the first five years right of appeal in such cases should be withheld."

The Rev. Dr Stuabt said it was a great many years ago since the question of union with the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand wa3 first brought before them. In 1861 they entered into the question with extraordinary enthusiasm, and in a very short time succeeded in effecting what they thought was a union that would prove advantageous to Presbyterianism and to Christianity through the Presbyterian Church north and south. The Moderator knew well, as also did the members of the Court, that that union proved of short duration. To this day he could not allow himself to speak of the manner in which this union waa broken. It occurred to him at the time that it was not done in a thoroughly fair way — at all events the union was brought to a close. In the interval they were aware that union among sections of the Presbyterian Churches in almost every land had been accomplished. There had been union in the Dominion of Canada — union in the Presbyterian Churches of the United States — union, in affect, between the English Presbyterian Church and the Churches belonging to the United Presbyterian Churches in England. Very recently the Union had been effected of the different Presbyterian Churches of the Dominion of Canada. That union took plage on the 15th June last, in Montreal, amidst extraordinary rejoicings ; and the representatives of the Episcopal Church in Canada, of the Irish Presbyterian Church, and of other Churches, sent their congratulations — from this they could see the importance attached to union. The union of the Presbyterian Churches of Canada took away the principal argument always used in the Church of Otago against Union — namely, the argument arising from the distance that their congregations were from each other. This union included Churches from the Atlantic to the Pacific ; it covered an immense territory — a territory far larger than the Presbyterian Church could cover in New Zealand, and parts of which were much less accessible than any district of this Colony. For himself, every time he went to the North he felt that these separate institutions in this Colony were not creditable to their Presbyterianism or to their Christianity. Their people travelled from one part of the Colony to another Some went North and transferred themselves to the Northern Church, and yet they heard that their churches in the North were under a different and distinct organisation — that they had left the Church of Otago, and belonged to the Church of New Zealand. For himself, he had always been an earnest advocate of union, and time had not cooled his ardour in the least degree. If the Presbytery would go with him, they would agree to a motion like that which he had proposed. He was sure that a union on such a basis would at once be beneficial to them as a Church. For example, he was from time to time written to by members of the Northern Church about sending them ministiers, jj There were congregations there who

would like to have some of the ministers of the Otago Church, and probably there were some of the Otago congregations who would like to have some of the Northern ministers. An interchange of ministers had been going on between the two churches, and had been beneficial to congregations, and when union would take place the interchanges would, probably, be still more numerous. Besides, the united churches would form a stronger body for the purposes of church extension, and by union the Presbyterians of the Colony would be a much stronger body for such purposes as, for example, influencing the Legislature when the great question of national education would come before them. There was not the least doubt that, at present, their influence, as an ecclesiastical ' body, was greatly weakened by the sepai-ation of the Church here and the Church in the North. Besides, he sometimes thought that the Church in the North did not on occasions get fair play, in consequence of the existence of a separate Presbyterian Church here. He knew that it had given offence to the Church in the North that no representatives of that Church had been appointed to a seat in the Senate of the New Zealand University — he knew that that had given some offence to them. It had been explained to the Northern Church that the Legislature knew only of Presbyterianism in New Zealand, not of separate bodies of Presbyterians, and wore not putting Presbyterians against each other— that the appointment of a member of the Otago Church to a seat in the Senate of the University of New ZeaJand Avas not intended as an offence to the North or as a compliment to the South, but simply that the Legislature took a gentleman from the Presbyterians of the Colony, and gave him a seat in the Senate of the University. If the Presbyterians of the Colony were one Church, the Legislature could, without giving offence to any portion of them, have selected one member for the University Senate, and, in his opinion, Mr Bruce was the one after Dr Burns, that should have been on the Senate of the University. However, that was somewhat beside the matter. He hoped, and he felt very much, from the opinion abroad respecting this union, that this Presbytery, after the example of that of Oamaru, would cordially support union. It was quite true that, at the outset, the union would not be the complete and effective union they wished to make it, but they knew very well that more frequent intercourse with their Northern brethren would speedily make the General Assembly become the power for religious purposes that similar bodies were in other Churches. Let them make a beginning, let them make it in the way this report of the Union Committee recommended, let questions of discipline be relegated to the several Synods, not carried all at once to the General Assembly, although his opinion was that, in the course of a couple of yeara, they would have an Annual General Assembly of the Church for the whole Colony. Was it creditable to members of the Church, he asked, to haggle about the expenses of attending a General Assembly when a body, inferior in numbers and wealth, at least in this Province, to the Presbyterian Church, met annually in conference, and had representatives from every part ot the Colony? He referred to theWesleyan Church, the little community of which in this Province, sent its representatives to Auckland or Wellington, or wherever the annual conference might be held. That being so, this Church need not hesitate. The Wesleyan body found it necessary to be represented, and in this matter he was sure that that body acted quite right, and he was sure that their Presbyterian churches, when the advantages were set before them, would spare their ministers a fortnight every year to transact the business to be done in the General Assembly of the Church. He concluded by moving : " That this Presbytery cordially approve of the union of the Northern Church and the Church of Otago, on the basis of union given in the report of the Union Committee." Dr Copland had pleasure in seconding Dr Stuart's motion. Dr Stuart had referred to the interruption which unfortunately took place, to the union which had been effected some time about '61 or '62. After that termination, the subject was hardly mooted on either side for several years, and he (Dr Copland) thought he had something to do in reviving the matter when paying a visit from this Church, as deputy, to the Assembly in the North nearly five years ago. He thought it was a somewhat striking circumstance in connection with the discussion on this subject, that nearly .everyone who had gone from the Church of Otago as a deputy to the Northern Churches had come back with the strong feeling that the union would be a most desirable thing. The basis on which union was proposed was set forth in the report. It might be said that if entered into it would be a union more in name than in reality. At the same time he thought it could be shown that there would be substantial benefit even if union were carried out only to the extent here indicated. There would be joint action in Church extension and in Foreign and Maori missionary schemes. Then there was another point which was not stated in the report, but which certainly would be prosecuted in common, and which would, with the utmost advantage, be prosecuted in common, namely, the education and training of candidates for the ministry. He did not think that there i,was a likelihood of this being satisfactorily gone into' until it was gone into by the United Church. This was a subject which, he thought, was of very great importance to the Church both here and in the north. He believed that they would, by union, not only have fuller appliances for the training of candidates, but that there would also be developed a stronger inclination —he hoped so at least— on the part of the young men in the Church to come forward and seek such training and preparation and enter the ministry than there had been manifested hitherto, There was another additional advantage which had been alluded to, namely, the advantage to be derived from the representatives of the whole Church of New Zealand meeting together and considering matters which affected the Church, and which affected religion throughout the country. At present he thought that the influence of this Church was not what it might be if it were combined with the Church in the North. This influence was a matter which was increasingly deserving of being looked to. The Church should look to it, because to do so would be to increase the influence of religion — (hear, hear) — in the community. There was a very strong tendency in many quarters to push religion into a corner, and to set aside its influence, and he thought, therefore, that it was the part of those who desired to maintain religion to use all such efforts as prudence dictated for increasing the influence of religion on the public mind ; and he thought that the influence of their Church would be much increased were united action taken on all matters that affected the interests of religion, or the interests of their Church. At present there was no regular means by which the whole of the Presbyterian portion of the Colonists could give a formal expression of opinion. He thought there would be no difference of opinion in their Church in respect to the point alluded^ to in the report — that of alloTying an appeal in cases of discipline and doctrine. If the Assembly was only held, as now proposed, every two years, it certainly would be very in.

convenient to deal with cases of appeal; and to probably have to send parties to distant parts of the Colony. Those who had travelled and had seen the state of the Church in the North Island, knew that it needed the sympathy, and, to some extent, the resources, which might be obtained from this Church. Looking at the matter from a religious stand-point, it was highly profitable to religion, and to those who professed religion, to exercise a degree of unselfishness, and to look not merely to their own needs, but to the needs of others. And he felt very strongly that the sympathy and assistance which this Church could render to the Church ra the North would be most profitable to both. The Rev. Mr M'Naughton rejoiced in all the unions in other countries referred to by Dr Stuart, and would like to see further unions — would like to see the Presbyterian Churches of Scotland united. He (Mr M'Naughton) was one of thos who had taken part in breaking up the former union, and he thought it was scarcely right of Dr Stuart to say it was not done in a fair way. They in Otago sent representatives to the General Assembly, and that body introduced hymns and instrumental music. That was the reason why they broke up the union, and he hardly thought there was anything unfair in that. He did not think the North had since improved in that respect. Instead of one instrument, the North had now got many. They were peculiarly situated in Otago in many respects, and especially in regard to their Church property. He for one could not agree to union with the North. They might as well agree to union with Victoria. — (No, no.) He must, in consistency with his forther action, oppose the union. He then moved to the effect that the Presbytery do not recommend union.

Mr King (of Green Island) seconded Mr M'Naughton's amendment. Really, he failed to see what was to be gained by this union. He was prepared to recommend union, but he wanted union that would be really union, and not union in which the only advantage to be pained was that of combined action in regard to Foreign and Maori Mission schemes — the Churches, in other respects, would be virtually as distinct as at present. He believed in upholding their brethren in the North as much as they could, but the circumstances of the two Churches were entirely different. He then mentioned a case of opposition being shown to the establishment of a Sustentation Fund in the Presbyterian General Assembly at Wellington — he knew there were members of that body distinctly opposed to a Sustentation Fund. It was evident the Church of Otago had enough to do within its own boiuids ; had as much as it could possibly do to undertake the work before it. To all intents and purposes, the Churches would be, with this proposed union, still distinct ; it was not union, it was merely a federation, and until they attained to some sort of homogeneity, it was better to wait a little. He did not think the bringing of the members together once in every two years would constitute a Christian union. He did not see what was to prevent them remaining separate, and yet carry on mission schemes in unison with the Northern Church.

The Rev. Dr Stuabt, in reply, remarked that he had little to say, Dr Copland having so admirably supplemented his (Dr Stuart's) observations. He was distressed, however, to hear his friend, Mr King, oppose the motion on the ground on which he (Mr King) did. Mr King must know very well that the question of the Sustentation Fund was at present before the Courts of the Northern Church, and that there were men in that Church who were anxious for the institution of such a fund. "At the same time, there were men in that Church, as there were men in the Church of Otago who knew how extremely difficult it was to work a sustentation fund in those districts of the Colony whore the congregations were so widely spread. It had been acknowledged they had need of the help in the North which would come from union with the Presbyterian Church of Otago ; and, as Dr Copland had said, those who visited the North had always come back strong advocates of union. — (Mr M'Naughton: Not always.) ' He (Dr Stuart) was at the Assembly last year, and there was much work got through there, and in a most orderly manner, and in a manner that attracted considerable attention. He was quite sure that the Church in Otago would be strengthened and inspirited by union with the North. He was amazed with what the Northern Church had done, considering the means at its disposal. At the same time he was humiliated to find that in the Province of Nelson there were only two ministers of the Presbyterian Church. The Northern Church felt that if it had the strength of union, the now timid friends of Presbyterianism in the out-districts would plant the old standard and rally round it. It was not for any party purpose, or any purpose such as the introduction of instrumental music or hymns, that he advocated union, but from the profound conviction that it would be of great benefit to the Colony as a whole — not alone to the Presbyterian Church — he felt that he was a colonist and Christian citizen, and he thought that as a Christian citizen he was bound to do everything he could to influence Christianly every district of the Colony. At present, if he spoke, there would not be that weight attaching to his words which there would be if he were a member of a Church extending over the whole Colony — were he a member of such his words would have more force than they had now. Mr M'Naughton had acted to preserve himself from being called inconsistent — God spare such consistency ! If Mr M'Naughton opposed union that he might be consistent, it was a course which would give him (Dr Stuart) regret. He did not altogether agree with Mr M'Naughton's account of the breaking up of the former union; that did not alone take place on account of the question of music. The Northern Church at the time said, in effect, "If you disapprove of our action in the matter of music send up your representatives, and tell us what you want." He (Dr Stuai't) was in favour of sending up representatives ; but, he regretted, he was in the minority, was overruled — none were sent — and accordingly the union came to an end. However, it might have been better if he had not made any reference to the past, although it was extremely difficult to forget circumstances which he thought at the time were not supremely honourable, and which he still did not think were so. He hoped that the Presbytery would pass the motion. For Mr M'Naughton's amendment there were held up two hands (those of Mr M'Naughton and Mr King) ; for the motion of Dr Stuart, seven.

The Modekatoe then declared Dr Stuart's motion carried by a majority of five.

Dr Stuabt moved— -"That the Presbytery overture the Syned to take immediate steps, in concert with the Assembly of the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand, with a view to providing Church ordinances for the Presbyterian settlers in the Colony of Fiji." He referred to the number of persons who had left this Colony to settle in Fiji, its comparatively close proximity to New Zealand, the fact that with a settled form of government the population would probably rapidly increase ; and .urged that the Presbyterian Church should not allow itself to be out-distanced as it had been in other Colonies, but be first in the field." He desired in no way to interfere with the Wesleyan

missions to the natives ; the ordinances pro. posed were purely for Presbyterian settlers. The motion was agreed to, COMMODORE GOODENOUGH. Moved by Dr Stuart, seconded by Dr CopLAND— "That this Presbytery, having heard.of the death of Commodore, Goodenough, in the prosecution of his duty in suppressing the forcible deportation of the Islanders of the Pacific, record their admiration of his conduct and express their deep sorrow at his death, and direct the Clerk to send a copy of this minute to his widow.'