THE ABOLITION QUESTION.

Otago Witness, Issue 1241, 11 September 1875, Page 6

THE ABOLITION QUESTION.

THE DUKEDIN SIEETING,

Themeeting to consider the Abolition question was held last evening. The meeting was called upon a requisition of Messrs A. Mercer, R. K. Murray, W. Hooper, and "21 other signatures." Proceedings were commenced at the Athenaeum, where the Mayor took the chair at 8 o'clock, after which an adjournment was made to the Drill Shed. There were about 200 persons present in the Drill Shed when the proceedings commenced, but the attendance afterwards increased to as many perhaps as 600, The Mayor mentioned that the meeting had been formally opened at the Athenaeum. He had taken the precaution during the day of securing the Drill Shed, in fact the gentleman using it as skating rink had kindly given the use of it. He advised the meeting to stick to the point, and avoid personalities. He did not know who the speakers would be, and he merely presided.

Mr Lloyd here rose and meved the adjournment of the meeting to the terrace of the Government Buildings, at 12 next day. A great uproar ensued. T? h i!™ lA T? E Mr L1 °y d to rit down, which Mr Lloyd did.

Mr M'lndoe pointed, out that.,th3 meeting had not been called in accordance with "the requisition; the requisition said "a meeting "of citizens ;" the reply confined the meeting to the "electors."

I Mr Lowry called out that Mr Hooper was hot an elector of Dunedin, and that he (Mr Hooper) shoiild not speak here that night. The Mayor told Mr Lowry to be quiet. His Worship then explained that he had taken the precaution to confine the meeting to electors, and the very fact of what the meeting had seen dining the proceedings showed the necessity of doing so. Mr M'Laren moved— "That this meeting endorses the action of the General Government in proposing the Abolition measures. "

A great uproar here ensued. The resolution was not received. The Mayor put it whether Mr M'Laren should be heard. The meeting determined he should not. M'Laren would not sit down, and maintained his right to speak, until the Mayor appealed to the meeting to maintain his position as Chairman, and till there were cries of " Put him (M'Laren) out." The Eev. Dr Stuakt did not agree with Mr M'Laren, but considered, if he were an elector, he was fairly entitled to be heard.

It was shouted out that M'Laren was not an elector. Mr M'Laren having subsided, Mr Lloyd then came to the front, and took up the time of the meeting. He made some observationson constitutional law, and reminded the meeting that they were descendants of those who drew the sword at Nasebyand Marston Moor, and followed Cromwell. The two public nuisances having been got rid of, opportunity was afforded the electors to speak. Mr Gillies thought that considerable blame was due to those who had taken the initiative in calling the meeting in that no proper programme had been organised. Though he was .opposed to the views of those who called the meeting, he should move a motion. He was in favour of the Abolition Bill. He took it, from the expression ot opinion they had given, and also from his observation of public opinion throughout the Colony, that there could hardly be anydifference of opinion, even among Provincialists, that abolition was needed. If there was any doubt on that, he should quote from the speech of Mr Maoandrew. The speech was corrected in Mr Macandrew's own handwriting, so there could be no doubt of his ( Mr Macandrew's) sentiments. In order to know how he had come by it, he would tell them he had been in the Daily Times office that day, and (Interruption.) There was no breach of confidence. The speech had been scattered broadcast throughout the town.— (lnterruption and confusion.) His speech did not suit those who did not want the meeting to hear Mr Macandrew's words.— (More interruption, The Mayor: Do, gentlemen, give all the speakers a fair hearing.)

, Mr Gillies said it would be very wrong of him if he had not assured himself of the accuracy of the report of Mr Macandrew's speech. He then read from Mr Macandrew's speech the following extract :— " In common with all previous speakers, lam of opinion that the time has come when it is absolutely necessary that there should be some modification of 'the existing system of Government throughout the Colony. I am free, sir, to admit that this Colony ia groaning under, and is over-burdened with, government. We have now two governmental machines to do the parish work which one sufficed to do before, and which, I believe, one is quite sufficient to perform still."— (Great interruption and confusion. ) Mr Gillies wished to-read another extract from the same speech, bitt the meeting would not allow him to do so,) Ultimately, Mr Gillies said he might condense •it into this, that Mr Macandrew-proposed that the Provincial Governments be not done away with, but the General Government.— (Great applause and hisses.) There was no doubt that something should be abolished. Were they prepared to abolish Provincial Governments ? There was too much Government here. It would take a stranger a year to get a knowledge of our political nomenclature. The only question was : Was the time come when a change should be made ? The mind of the people was made up for a change ; it had been growing to that for the last ten years. A gentleman asked him " about the Daily Times'," but there were people here like the Daily Times, who would give one opinion one day, and another day. another. He (Mr Gillies) formed one opinion, and Btuck to it. If they liked, they _ could > follow those people who changed their opinions with such placidity, who ' first held one opinion and then another. Those opinions in the Daily Times with reference to abolition had, to his mind, a remarkably clerical appearance— they spoke on both sides, and voted on the question of expediency. As to delay, they had been listening to the cry of delay for years ; it was simply staving off a matter that might now be ended ; it was placing a stumbling block in the way of the right settlement of the question. With aboh'tion, none of their powers and privileges would be in the least infringed. — (Yes, yes, and No, no.) He said " No." There might be things which they would like to see different in regard to the Local Government Bill, but these matters would yet be considered. Could there be a full fair view of matters taken while the Provincial Government remained? No. The only course was to clear the obstacles out of the people's way, and then they might hope to have something like a fair expression of opinion. As to the land revenue and other matters, he had only to say that the General Government were their masters at the present moment, and if they required these funds they would have them, no matter whether there were Provincial Governments or not. The matter was not so paltry as a question of £10,000 a year to Dunedin. He scorned the charge that it was so. He said I that had nothing to do with the apathy of the electors, that the state of the electors was owing to their having long seen what would come, and having made up their minds. He would ask them not to look at it in the light of £10,000 a year, or their land revenue might be looked at in that light.— (Great laughter.) lake a broad enlightened view. Let them remember that they were citizens of a great country, that they were linked together by indissoluble bonds, and if they did not attend to the purse strings at head-quarters they would be ruined. And one of the advantages of abolition was, that it would bring the people face to face with those who spent their money, lhe cry was delay, in order to deal with the land fund, but if they did that they would be like the unjust steward— (A Voice : Who was he ?)— or a bankrupt, who, having to assign his estate, made away with some of his property, lhat was the position in which some people would put the Province. He had a better i opinion of the electors, and hoped they would | take a high and enlightened view. People said j w-. Was 1 a squatter. He was not a squatter. With abolition they would have better local government than now. The questions now considered at the executive meetings would be dealt with in the Taieri, Clutha. or other districts in which they arose— (hear, hear)— and not m Dunedin or Wellington. While he thought there was something better in store, he held that the true remedy for New Zealand was undoubtedly separation— the two islands were different in climate, in productions, in the genius of the people, and he did not think they would ever amalgamate into a great nation,

However, that was apaEt'from>th6-subj^flt, < -h«: moved— "That the thanks of this meeting be' tendered to • our Dunedin representatives for the action they have taken in connection with .the Abolition Bill."— (Loud cries of "No.") Mr Fish, who was received 1 with applause and hooting, seconded the resolution. He did not purpose to make a speech, as from his voice they would hear it was totally impossible. ' He fully believed, and he spoke from experience as a Municipal Councillor and Provincial Councillor, that the time had arrived for abolition. A severe cold prevented him from makhv a speech. °

Mr Hooper asked the Chairman could he speak ?

Mr M'Laren objected.— (Much confusion.) lhe GHAiRjrAN explained that a new electoral roll was being prepared, and that Mr Hooper's name was on it.

Confusion ensued. Order being restored, The Chairman: I rule that Mr Hooper has a "ght to speak, because his name is on the newroll.— (Cries of '' No."') Mr Hooper sat down.

Mr Grant then came forward amid tremendous applause. They had had a strong meeting; let them have a few plain statements. He was an Abolitionist. He was not a rabid Abolitionist or Provincialist, but he was a stern economist. The issue was this : Given a popol.ation of 300,000 souls, did they require a | Central Government and nine petty Governments.—(No.) They should have one General Government and one common purse. The Middle Island was the most important, but it was overruled by the North. There was an «)iperium in imperio, log-rolling ; no man looked to the countiy, but to his own district, or place for himself. They were importing -large mim- ; bers of immigrants annually, and they should economise, give work to the unemployed, and pay the Colony's debts. He believed one secre- : tary and twelve officials could do the whole of I this Province's work. He believed the affairs' 1 of this Province were not so complicated or so | large as those of some firms in Dunedin— for 'instance, Sargood's. Delay was the cry, -'and some of them stood up for Provincialism to ( support themselves, monopolise the land, and make estate for themselves. He hoped the [ meeting would signify in no .unambiguous lan- 1 guage their hearty thanks to the General Government and th6ir supporters. Mr Isaac rose at the back of the hall.—- : (There ,were loud cries for him to come forward. ) J — He made an explanation that the Guardian had credited him with an Intention to address the meeting, and was understood to Bay that he had not had that intention. ,He had been treated very unfairly in not being heard. : The Mayor explained that Mr.Murray> had risen to speak before Mr Isaac had-^-that Mr I Murray had the right to speak. _:,-.'< ' • ':. I Mr Murray said that everyone should have' "the right to speak his mind. The reason that ,no programme had been prepared of- this meet-* ing was that everyone should speak hi 3 mind/The Bill had been rushed through Parliament' with undue haste.— (No.) Did those who cried " No " know the provisions of the Bill?— (Yes.) There was a. fog hanging over the provisions of the Bill, and it always •was better to bear the ills they had than fly to- ; others they knew not of. The whole'iof they i newspapers were for Abolition, and he would be a coward if he was afraid to be in the right with two or three. They were rushing the .Bills through precipitately. — (Interruptions I such as cock crowing.) They were here to dis; cuss matters, and he hoped the meeting would give attention.— (Cries of "Time.")' Before 1 , they cried for Abolition, they should pause aridi t look before they leaped. II they'kriewiwtiat! was going on at the Colonial Parliament^ they j would know that jobbery and corruption was twenty times worse there: Tlie 1 chief part of the four million Joan was gone.— (Cries of Isaac and cock-crowing.) He asked them to pause before they voted for Abolition., Mr Isaac : (He came over the seats from the baok to the front of the hall, amidst great . amusement, being helped over the chair. He was advised to take off his coat— his overcoat—before he addressed the meeting, but he didnot do so,) Mr Sligo : This is a meeting called for a serious purpose. There are persons here for fun. Let us have business.

Mr Isaac said he had not the intention of speaking. He was in ill health, but it was the" excitement of the moment and their interests— (great laughter)— that caused him to speak. He was not a strong Provincialist.— (Oh.) The time was not ripe for Abolition. The Bill took away their liberties— (oh)— it took away their local self-government. If their Governments . were bad, modify them, but do not do away with their liberties. Their M.H.E.'s had been complained of as acting from self-interest , but they were members elected by the people, and the people should not elect those who would allow " tiddly-winking." There were men of a certain sort who moved injunctions in the Supreme Court to get the land, and who next day asked their suffrages for Abolitiou. They .should watch those things, and not be led away ( by claptrap. The leases granted in 18G3 would soon be falling in, and these men with Abolition would become freeholders. With a coimupt Press, such as they saw to-night in Mr»'eH, Orilhes, who had the audacity to brin»l£oin' ifte ' Times office a copy of the Superintendents speech.— (Great hissing, laughter, applause/and confusion.) Unless the people would support a liberal and enlightened Press, they would be crushed. He referred them to Ireland and other countries, where people had lost thenlocal self-government.

Mr Bamsay had an amendment— (applause) —to propose, which he would -move— "That, m the opinion of this meeting, the members for JJunedm should have consulted their constituents before recording their votes for Abolition." He had no desire to say anything unduly harsh of Mr Reynolds or Mr Wales, but as they were elected Provincialists, they should, before voting for Abolition, have given the electors an opportunity of expressing an opinion. He hoped that the unmistakeable voice of this meeting would be that their representatives had done wrong^ in this matter.— (Yes, no, and applause. ) He hoped the sound would be for the future that no man would go up to the Assembly pledged to do one thing and yet do another. Mr Reynolds had stated, "in a private manner " it was said in the papers, he had changed his mind; but, instead of doing that, he should have come before his constituency. He (Mr Ramsay) believed in a simpler form of Government, butconsidered time should begiven to discuss important constitutional changes They should not be called in a hurried manner m^^A*! ?- v - er & eir Provin cial Governments. The Abolition Bill had not been seen till three weeks ago— even by members, except the strongest supporters of the Government. That was not sufficient time. So far as Dunedin was concerned, there was no reason to complain of the Provincial Government, which was always comeatable, and he feared they would not be so well dealt with from Wellington. He simply moved this amendment that their representatives should know that, without comiti"before the electors, they could not pledge them° selves to one course and pursue another.— (Applause.)

Mr Babnes seconded the motion. They should not let their land get into the hands of monopolists, and under Abolition it would. Their land fund, too, would be swallowed up •

>nd the ggor man would jgo to the wall sHe<hsped=thsy : would pause t , and wait a bttle longer." ~ '«* - v v Mr Cahbick hopedthose who made a disturb* ( ance m.the meeting would- listen .to-wiat their t opponents had to aay._ Algrave constitutional .question should not be decided by; a moribund (Parliament— it should be referred to ,the 'constituencies. , Three months would do it and if ;a majority of members >ere . elected for, an& voted for Abolition, everyone should, in duty ' ;bow to the change. There -should be delay to", give time to consider— there was.no danger in. delay. Ohe .Star had said the danger in delay, was that Sir George Grey would get into, power. , «™«« he get into, power .without, the will ol the people, which showed'the fear thafr was had of the people. —(Great applause. )'Thosepledged to one thing who voted for another,,* betrayed their trust. -(Applause.)' He then said that Mr Gillies had misrepresented Mr Macandrew. It was an unfortunate analogy to say the attempt to retain the land fund was twi W*? * U< * fflU y do away with his estate. The Province was not insolvent;, inoy were trying to lock the door while the horse was still in the stable. To carry this', potion would be to back up perfidious nikwho were afraid to face their constituents. ' ''■ ' Mr Leary had waited till this time to hearargument on one side' or another, and musfc Wfc?« A Wa 4 disa PPointed.,-(ohr and.Kif f i V & ICE L h not .being elected.) To show them how "things iniL at^ eSe^'.^ c s^d give then, hia .analysis of Provincial revenue and expenditure.. -(Voices: 100 late,. and Question.) .'lt was ithe question. (The Mayob : Hear Mr Leary!) .His analysis was that the ordinary revenue of ,tbe Colony feR far short of the calls upon it. ; lie regarded the Land Fund as the 'capital of- ' the country They were going rapidly to ruin., According to that stateinent-an£ he vouched for its correctness— they were' going into their- ' 1 ca P* ta l «* the rate of £30,000 a year. It waa ■ U £fS y«« alter this state of .things with, an Abohtion,BiU?"'bufhe maintained thatthe expenses , of Government could be very mate^ - 3 r lft d "n'der Abolition. Mr' Isaac had . said he (Mr Leary) was a disappointed member?, sand a representative of the squatters. r" He- , (Mr Leary) said that 'Mr Isaac,. as simply ; stated m plain English',' stated' what was a lie; ,— (Great uproar.) <■" ', ' «.*£* THOIrAS Birch would tell them distinctly; ; that no meeting in New Zealand was of so = much importance on the miri'dlbf the .General : Government as this meeting in the Province 6fi I Otago. ; He was at Wellington when the second .■reading, of this Abolition , Bill took, place," "an~d jhe had never previously heard of. such opinion* in suppprt of the' action, of any. Government " As the General Government had' a large majority, .they should leave the AboUtionqueL itidnover for the constituencies and' for the iopinions ; of the new' Parliament. - .' That was the ! common-sense view. He maintained that there f was no-policy connected with the recent session, ;of the Provincial Council. qfOtago, when Mr : Green was a member of brie Ministry and thea s joined another. The days of Provincialism wer<i past, arid he thought that' we could ba 5 better ruled arid guided from' Wellington" thani m S$ a &'—N 0 * no, and laughter;) „."".: ■>- ! "Mr M&wnp, M.P.C., said' he wm, not an elector of Dunedin, and did not wish' to coma {forward under false colours. *He would_>ive them his opinions on the Abolition question^ jthemeetingallow.ed him.— (Cries of, dissent >n4 5 a-P?JSP- P e .^ sons wno , we always yecogmW-aa decided, nuisances -at, pufrlig ."meetings, Vaeaia, icausea considerable trouble to the. OhairmanV^ ever ther^was .a time n na .tjie,. history ,of oup. country, when the .electors. should' dispense with i their accustomed p6liiicai"apathy,','thftt" time ; had now arrived. By iixeve power, • and,-, theirf ■ vote they had to guide this ; *oountry,.,which - .'should be the greatest country in the" Southern 'Hemisphere— the "Britain of . the Smith.'" They should not stay its progress byv hasty legislation.— (Hear, hear; and prolonged applause.) Let every one of them consider how, they should fare when the institution under .which they had prospered was abolished.— ', (Hear, hear, and applause). He remembered. . well when the first news of Abolition reached 1 , Queenstpwn, where he had resided for the last ; twelve years. Our late friend Judge "Wilson s Gray was ai that time holding his Court there, :One evening, when walking with the Judge j along the shores of Lake Wakatip, he* (Mr i Hallensteiri) remembered him stating.'ih coW tversation on the Abolition Bill, jU If you' ,abolish the Provincial institutions, : yoMj take' -away the bulwark of your liber(g^ s<; — ' {(Hear, hear, and applause.) . "The'Prd,vincial Council has been between you and'class legislation."— (Applause.) The General Assembly will for, many years not 1 'be a fair reflex of the people — not a fair representation of the bulk of the population.— (Hear, ;hear.) They would not get good represent.atives to proceed to Wellington if this Abolition' Bill became law. He repeated the opinion' 'of. the Lite Wilson Gray, the sentiments of 'a man' who for ever advocated the cause of the general 1 ,-public. They all knew, that to him was due the honour of taking the first step towards 1 a liberal land lawin Victoria. — (Hear, hear.) Theinterest of the landholders in our Provincial. Council was gone, and to a certain extent the Council had settled the people under the de- • f erred payment system on the land He knew of 120 miles of country here in the hands of one man, and under Provincial institutions that' system would not continue. He looked' upon - sending their money to Wellington as a 'mere' bagatelle compared with the settlement of "the* land. It was class legislation which they would get from Wellington. He trusted thatthe meeting would speak out in unmistakeable ' terms that they would not at any rate have, this Abolition Bill passed this year.— (Hear ■ hear, and applause.) Let them not have this, evil perpetrated by a dying Parliament.— (Loud applause.) , ■ . Mr Pavletich spoke, but whether in favour of delay or otherwise it was impossible to ascertain from his remarks. Mr E. Gillies, who was received with cheers' hisses, and cries of " Vote," claimed the right , of reply as mover of the motion. The Eev. Dr Stuart: Mr Chairman,- Mr., Gillies has a right of reply. The Chairman : It is not the practice at a political meeting for the mover of a motion to • review the speeches of those who have "gene before. , The Eev. Dr Stuaht : Do you rule "that the. mover of a motion has not the right of a reply ? - The Chairman explained that he was willing when the confusion subsided; to allow. Mr, (xilhes to make any explanation Mr Gillies bowed to the Chairman's ruling, but protested against it as an innovation of an ,-, ton 0 ?* I™**:1 ™** : that Mr CTaUes r s^ l; is to make a personal explanation. .1 think 1«M is entitled to do so. , Mr Gillies explained that his friend Mr-, Carnck had accused him of misquoting •; jfcu Macandrew. He had read Mr MacanLv*. ! very words and he challenged anyone .to say that he hart misquoted him in the slightest re- ■ sPect.-(As P ect.-(A Voice ■ You're a squatter.) He was no squatter. He had always been on the same ade as Mr Carnck and other gentlemen on the

land question, and that was the very reason he wished to see the Abolition Bill settled. The Provincial Government had no power over our land*.— (Great confusion.) The Chairman then put the amendment, which was carried by an immense majority. The motion was put and lost, only eight hands being displayed in its favour.— (Cheers.) •On the motion of Mr Isaac, the usual compliment was paid the Chairman. The meeting dispersed at 10.30 p.m., after baring given enthusiastic cheers for Mr Macandrew.