PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Witness, Issue 177, 23 December 1854, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, Nov. 30. ( Continued from our last.) Mr. Cutten in reply said he did not consider Mr. Reynolds so bad as his late colleague, if he would not be led by him, but would express his own views. He did not affirm that the ministry had adopted his policy ; Mr. Macandrew had said so. He (Mr. Cutten) did not believe in the eternal gratitnde of the settlers for the offer to take the New Zealand Company's Debt on the Province. The statement that his (Mr. Cutten's) object in opposing the ministry was to obtain £300 a-year as Secretary was a charge I worthy of the gentleman who made it, for he must have known that after his (Mr. Cutten's) resignation, his Honor the Superintendent had sent for him and offered to place a salary of £150 per annum on the estimates if he would retain office. The hon. gentleman must have been a party to that offer, (no, no, from Mr. Macandrew) as the resignation was sent in whilst the Executive was sitting: then, as a member of the Executive, hp ought to have been. As to the remark that he had sold his Province to the FitzGerald ministry, why it was notorious that the hon. gentleman and his party would have bought any man's vote, and would have paid any amount for it, and if he (Mr. Cutten) wanted to sell the Province, he acted unwisely, for he went to the wrong parly. The hon. gentleman had complained that they would not trust his Honor without check. How inconsistent he was; had he not complained that his opponents were for men and not measures ? Why, what was his argument now but men and not measures ; they held that good measures required good men to carry them out. He (Mr. Macandrew) now it suited his purpose, was for good men and no measures ; and as to the suggestion that they should not reply to the message but let it drop, and the argument that they should not cavil but go on with the public business, that was excellent. He commenced the warfare by sending a letter of resignation containing all kinds of insinuations against, mis-statements of, and impertinence to, that house, and then advise that they should not cavil about it. Why, he would be the very first man to turn round and say, if the house took no notice of it, that his statement was all true, and that they had ttot a word to say for themselves. He (Mr. Cutten) therefore trusted the house would vindicate itself by adopting the address. The address having been altered at the request of Mr. Rennie, by the substitution of the words " impertinent and to a great extent untrue," for " flippant, impertinent, and untrue," (and an amendment proposed by Mr. Macandrew, rejected) was put to the house and carried, Messrs. Harris, Cutten, and Rennie, voting for it ; and Messrs. Macandrew, Reynolds, and Anderson, against. The Speaker gave his casting vote in favour of the adoption of the address. The Immigration Bill was then read a third time. On the motion that the Bill do pass, Mr. Macandrew moved an amendment that the name of W.

I W. Cargill be expunged from the last clause of the Bill. The amendment being the same as was moved in committee was lost, the only additional incident being the remark of Mr. Macandrew that the opposers of the amendment desired to defeat the object of the bill, that they were afraid of the addition of a few good honest Scotchmen to the electoral roll, " though we do not intend to exclude Englishmen." The bill having passed, the house adjourned till Tuesday, 5. Present — Messrs. Reynolds, Anderson, Cutten, Harris, Macandrew, Rennie, and M'Olashan. The Speaker in the Chair. Mr. Anderson laid before the house a message, No. 5, from his Honor the Superintendent. On the motion of Mr. M'Glashan, a committee was appointed to answer the message. _ The Speaker laid upon the table a communication from the Provincial Council of Taranaki, transmitting copies of Ordinances of Session 1. of that Province. The Speaker was requested to acknowledge the receipt, and to convey the thanks of the Council for the same. Mr. Anderson's resolution referring to the land regulations was postponed to allow of further communication from the Crown Commissioner to be laid on the table of the house. Mr. Macandrew moved the resolution of which he had given notice, and which appeared in our last number. He said, when he introduced the subject to the Council, he stated that there were legal difficulties in the way. Notwithstanding these legal difficulties, the Solicitor was of opinion that if the Superintendent and Council were unanimous in their concurrence with the spirit of the resolution, by stretching a point so as to meet the urgency of the case, the legal difficulties might practically be got over. With a friendly Crown Commissioner there would have been no difficulty whatever. He stated that sales effected by the Commissioner without the sanction of the Superintendent were illegal and invalid. He would caution parties against purchasing land from the Commissioner. He believed Mr. Mantell was encouraged by certain members of the Council, and that but for that encouragement he would never have placed himself in his 'position of hostility to the settlers ; and it would be that influence to which the public would be indebted for the Council receding from its former resolution, and negativing that which he had now the honor to propose. The motion was seconded by Mr. Anderson. Mr. Harris moved as an amendment, — " That while the Provincial Council are anxious to see their resolutions carried into full effect, and are willing to undertake any reasonable amount of responsibility with regard to them, so long as legal means only are adopted for their enforcement ; but as this house is satisfied that the Regulations adopted by the Executive could not be carried legally into effect ; and as much inconvenience and loss might be sustained by the public from proceeding in an illegal manner — it declines any responsibility in the matter. 1 ' Mr. Cutten seconded the amendment. He objected to mixing up two questions together ; they were not asked to give an opinion on the respective merits of his Honor the Superintendent and the Commissioner of Crown Lands, but the question for their consideration was whether they would take upon themselves the responsibility of becoming parties to the regulations issued by the Executive. lie had no great liking for the Commissioner of Crown Lands, or admiration of his method of administering the affairs of his department; but his dislike of an individual would not hurry him (Mr. Cutten) into doing tint which was illegal. The regulations were admitted by the Executive to be illegal (no, no, j from Mr. Macandrew.) Well, the opinion of the Solicitor clearly stated so, and the interference of the Council would not make them less so. With such an Executive as they had at present he would j not share any responsibility of their acts. He believed the resolution of the Council might have been legally carried into effect, if the Executive had acted with prudence. Mr. Macandrew in reply complained that the legal opinion of the Solicitor had been misquoted. It was very clear that were there any desire on the pait of the majority of the Council to carry the spirit of the regulations into effect, that by stretching a point it could be done. Messrs. Harris and Cutten had said that regulations might be framed which would have the desired effect. Had those hon. gentlemcMi been in the Executive Council, they should have heard nothing about illegality, they would have stretched a point. It was absurd to talk of illegality, seeing that even were there anything of the sort, the people would have the power to legalize whatever they might see fit. The amendment was carried, Messrs. Harris, Cutten, Rennie, and M'Glashan, voting for, and Messrs. Anderson, Reynolds, and Macandrew, against. Mr. Harris laid upon the table the questions of which he had given notice. Mi. M'Glashan gave notice that at next sitting he would ask a question of the Executive with regard to the Provincial Surveyor. On the motion of Mr. Cutten, a committee was appointed to answer Message No. 4. Mr. Reynolds moved the second reading of the I Appropriation Bill, which was seconded by Mr. Anderson. Mr. Harris moved an amendment that the second reading of the bill be deferred until the Executive had answered the questions that day laid on the table of the house. Mr. Cuttex seconded the amendment, which was los f . The second reading being carried, Messrs. Macandrew, Reynolds, Anderson, and M'Glashan, voting for, and Messrs. Cutten, Harris, and Rennie, against, the house went into committee, Mr. Rennie in the chair. On the motion that clause Ist be adopted, Mr. Gillies moved an amendment that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. Macandrew objected to such a course, as being out of order. Mr. Gillies ridiculed the idea of its being out of order to move that the chairman report progress ; the hon. gentleman must know better, having taken part in debates elsewhere. He might assume much on that circumstance, but he was not to suppose that the members of the Provincial Council were devoid of common sense. Mr. Gillies went on to show the impossibility of the Council going into the Estimates without information, the Executive had given none, Mr. Reynolds had moved the second reading without remarks. There were many items in the bill which it was not proper for the Council to pass without having the principle upon which the money so to be voted was to be expended ; ho instanced the sum for education, and that for roads and re-surveys. Mr. Cutten seconded the amendment, and a lengthened debate ensued. The amendment was carried, Messrs. Harris, Cutten, Gillies, and M'Glashan, voting in favour, Messrs. Macandrew, Anderson, and Reynolds, against. The house then adjourned until Tuesday. Tuesday, 12, Present— Messrs. Reynolds, Anderson, Macandrew, Harris, Rennie, M'Glashan, and Cutten. The Speaker in the chair. * - His Honor the Superintendent, in accordance with intimation given to the Speaker that his Honor would address the Council to-day, entered the house at half-past 3, when the Speaker read a correspondence between himself and his Honor with reference '■to his Honor's intention of addressing the house.

His Honor then read an address- to the house, after which he retired. Mr. Macandrew moved that it be printed. Mr. Harris moved an amendment, that Messrs. Cutten, Rennie, and Gillies, be appointed ,a committee to answer the address. The original motion being withdrawn, the amendment was agreed to. Mr. Anderson, as the late Speaker, laid upon the table Ordinances from other Provinces, the receipt of which were ordered to be acknowledged. Mr. Anderson laid upon the table a correspondence between Mr. J. Cargill and the Colonial Secretary '. Mr. Harris presented a petition from the committee of management of the Church of England praying for a site for the erection of an Episcopal Church in Dunedin, and gave notice of a motion on the subject for next sitting. Mr. Macandrew gave notice of a motion for an address to the Officer administering the Government to dissolve the Council. Mr. M'ltlashan's question, as to who was Provincial Survej'or was answered by Mr. Anderson, who stated that Mr, P. Proudfoot held the office. Mr. M'Glashan affirmed that Mr. Proudfoot had never been so gazetted. _ Mr. Harris, according to notice, rose to put the questions of which he had given notice, but declined to proceed with them, as he observed that they were answered on the back in the Superintendent's handwriting. A debate ensued, and the questions were ultimately put and answered. Mr. Harris gave notice of a vote of want of confidence in the Executive. Mr. M'Glashan brought up the report on Message No. 5, and Mr. Cutten the report on Message No. 4. The farther correspondence between his Honor the Superintendent and the Commissidaer of Crown Lands was read. On the motion of Mr. Rennie, seconded by Mr. Reynolds, Messrs. Harris and M'Glashan were appointed Auditors. Mr. Reynolds having made a financial statement, moved that the house go into committee on the Appropriation Bill. The motion was rejected, and the house adjourned until 8 o'clock the following morning. Wednesday, 13. The house met at 8 o'clock, and was engaged the whole day in committee on the Estimates, Mr. Rennie in the chair. On the motion of Mr. Cutten, the first clause i was amended, making the appropriation for six months. Mr. Macandrew moved that the Superintendent's salary be raised to £400. Mr. Harris moved and Mr. Cutten seconded that the amount be £300. Mr. Macandrew withdrew his motion, and that of Mr. Harris's was carried. The Solicitor and Treasurer's salary being placed on the Estimates at £250, Mr. Cutten suggested the division of the sum, which agreed to by the Executive. £^ Mr. M'Glashan moved that«ie Treasurer's salary be £100, and the Solicitor's salary £100. Mr. Gillies moved that the sum remain the same as last year— Solicitor £100, Treasurer L.50. Mr. Cutten seconded Mr. Gillies's motion, urging that as there was to be a new Council, raising the salary should be left to them. He stated that the whole accounts of the Province would not take half a day to copy, and required but an occasional attendance of the Treasurer ; and the Solicitor's work was confined to drawing some 10 bills. Mr. Macandrew spoke in favour of the original item, contending, that if the chief constable had £125, they ought to raise the Treasurer and Solicitor's salary to £250. Mr. M"Glashan defended his amendment, contending that all the officers should be well paid. Mr. Gillies contended that the work did not justify the increase ; he had been treasurer to a society at home, in which larger amounts passed through his hands, and he had received but £10 per annum. The office did not prevent the Solicitor from carrying on his private practice. The chief constable's time was entirely at the service of the public. Mr. Harris supported Mr. Gillies's amendment. The Executive supported the amendment of Mr. M'Glashan, which was carried, Messrs. Macandrew, Reynolds, Anderson, and M'Glashan voting for; and Messrs. Cutten, Harris, and Gillies against. Resident Magistrate's salary of £200 was altered to Police Magistrate's salary. Clerk to Departments was amended to Clerk to Superintendent, £100. On the item £300 for Roads, a resolution was passed that £200 of this sum should be appropriated to the formation of a main line of road from Scroggss creek to the Clutha, the expending of which to be regulated by a special Ordinance. The salary of the Pilot, at the suggestion of the Executive, was raised to £120 per annum. The salary of 4 Boatmen was agreed to at £4 10s. each per month. Mr. Macandrew moved that the sum of £5 on the Estimates of last year for the Gaoler's salary be placed on the present Estimates as due to that officer. A debate ensued on the question whether the placing a sum on the Estimates entitled the holders of an office to claim the sum so voted, when it was decided in the negative, it being held that the vote was for the service of the department; the amount of salaries was a matter of agreement between the Superintendent and the officers. The Gaoler's salary was raised to £100 on certain conditions. The items Immigration £4500, and Trustees of Religious Uses £S2 los., were postponed. j The rent of Council Chambers was increased to £30. To repair the Hospital £50 was inserted. The other items of the bill having been agreed to, the house adjourned till 5 o'clock. EVENING SITTING. The house met at 5 o'clock. Mr. Harris, according to notice, moved a resolution, to the effect that the approval of the petition should be conveyed to the Officer administering the Government. Seconded by Mr. Cutten pro forma. < ' Mr. Rennie objected to the State interfering in matters connected with religion, and expressed his entire reliance upon the voluntary principle. Mr. Reynolds objected to the resolution. He was of opinion that no sites should be granted. Application would be made by the Presbyterians at the Tokomairiro, and if the request were acceded to he could not see how others were to be refused. A variety of amendments having been proposed, the house, on the motion of Mr. Cutten, went into committee, Mr. Rennie in the chair. Mr. Cutten moved and Mr. Reynolds seconded the following resolutions :—: — " Resolved —That in the opinion of this house it is not advisable that grants of public lands for sites for Churches or other religious purposes should be made to any denomination of Christians or others : that all such bodies should be independent of the government, and be placed on a ground of perfect religious 1 equality. We, the members of the Provincial Council, considering it is inexpedient to grant public lands to religious bodies for religiouspurposes, yet sympathise with the members of -the, Church of England in their", endeavours ,to. obtain a, site for an Episcopal, Church, undertake" to propure, r by voluntary contributions, the necessary sum "for the purchase of the site desired by those gentlemen ; and that the Speaker be requested to convey to the; petitioners' the sentiments of this House.

, Mr. Gillies moved fhe-following amendment: — " .The Council haying under their consideration a Petition from the mem"sers of the Episcopal Church craving the Council to recommend the Governor to grant a particular site for an Episcopal Church ; •and further, considering that the members of this Council opposed the grant of Moray Place on the ground that the appropriating the re&erve of Moray Place for that purpose would be an infringement of public rights — Resolve, that there is no objection to the site asked for being granted : And further, resolve that this resolution be communicated to the Governor.'' Mr. Ctjtten" said if they commenced voting sites to any one body, it would be impossible for them to refuse others. The question was beset ■with difficulty, and he preferred leaving each denomination to take care of itself. Mohammedans or Buddhists might apply, and unless they were to judge what was truth and what was error, to which he objected, they would be open to the charge of illiberality ; but as the house were to a certain extent pledged to grant a site, he proposed the members should purchase the one required. Mr. Gillies was inclined to make a distinction in the present case,- and grant the site required, but to resolve that it should be no precedent. On the question being put to the vote, Messrs. Harris and Gillies voted for the amendment; and Messrs. Cutten, Macandrew, and Reynolds for the motion. Mr. Macaxdrew moved a resolution requesting the Officer administering the Government to dissolve the present Council. Seconded by Mr. Cutten and carried unanimously. A vote of want of confidence in the Executive was then passed nem. con. Messrs. Macandrew and Reynolds declined to vote. Mr. Harris said, in proposing the present vote he did not expect that it would have any effect after the Superintendent's speech. He only desired to place on record the fact of such a vote, and he had done all that could be expected of him ; he now left the question for the decision of the electors. Mr. Reynolds expressed his determination not to resign, alleging that he possessed the confidence of the electors, which the majority did not. At 8 o'clock the house adjourned till Friday, 15. Present — Messrs. Cutten, Reynolds, Harris, Macandrew, M'Glashan, and Rennie. The Speaker in the chair. The house having gone into committee on the Appropriation Bill, the item £4500 for immigration being under discussion was postponed until his Honor had received the reply of the house to message No. 5, so that his Honor might have an opportunity of assenting to or disallowing the Immigration Bill. A serious of resolutions proposed by Mr. Reynolds on the subject of Education were referred to a committee. On the item £82 13s. for Trustees for Religious Uses being read, Mr. Cutten objected to the item being in the Appropriation Bill. If it were due to the Trustees, it ourtte to be paid without their vote. Mr. MACANDRE\wwas indifferent as to which way the house proceeded ; he however thought that the money being in the Provincial Treasury should not be paid without an appropriation. The item being put to the vote was carried. The following resolution was then agreed to nem. con., Messrs. Macandrew and M'Glashan declining to vote : — " That this house, in voting the sum of £82 13s. for the Trustees for Religious and Educational Uses, does so on the express understanding that that sum is a debt due to them, and is not to be taken as a precedent for future votes for such purposes." An additional sum of £50 was agreed to. The house then adjourned till Monday at nine o'clock a.m. • Monday, 18. The house met at 9 a.m., and went into committee on the Appropriation Bill. Mr. Reynolds, on behalf of the Executive, desired the sum of £4500 for immigration to be struck out, which was agreed to. He also wished to amend the Ist clause, making the appropriation for twelve months. Mr. Cutten objected. The question had been settled by a vote in a full house, and he objected to reviving a question so decided. He observed from the numbers present that he could reduce the Treasurer's salary, as proposed at a former meeting, but he refrained from doing so, as such a course was an interruption to business. Mr. Rennie desired to re-consider the item £82 13s. for Religious Uses, and moved that the item be struck out. A discussion ensued, and Mr. Rennie's motion being put to the vote, was lost. The house, at the request of the Executive, adjourned until the 3rd January.