THE STORM BREAKS

Otago Daily Times, Issue 19529, 11 July 1925, Page 12

THE STORM BREAKS

MR ATMORE ON FUSION,.

FURTHER LABOUR AMENDMENT. WARM DISCUSSION IN HOUSE. (Fsoji Oua Own Co2kkspqndent.l WELLINGTON, July 10. When Hie House of Representatives was about to rise on Thursday night the motion for the adjournment of the debate on the Address-in-Reply was moved by Mr F. Lye, who thereby secured the right to continue the debate yesterday. However, late this afternoon a rumour went the rounds that the first speaker in the day’s debate would ■be Mr Harry Atmore (member for Nelson), who had given notice of an amendment to the Address-in-Reply. This rumour proved to be correct, but Mr Atmoro, declaring that he had been told only at tho eleventh hour, seemed very annoyed about it and proceeded to adaress the House in no Sunday-school' manner. MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE. Just before the resumption of tho debate, the Prime Minister (tho Hon, J. G. Coates) obtained the permission of the House to make a statement. This statement, he said, was in connection with Mr Atmore’s amendment According to precedent and custom it was impossible to add anything to the motion, and while Mr Atmore no doubt moved the amendment with the thorough conviction that he was doing the best thing for the country, it was impossible to allow anything to be attached, and therefore anything added by way of amendment must be treated as a no-con-fidence motion, j “I think,” ho added, “it is only fair to make this clear.” MR ATM ORE’S ADDRESS. It was then left to Mr Atmore to continue tho debate, and he began in tones of anger. On Thursday night, ho said, he hud been told He would not be called on to speak till Friday evening. , Now he was told just before the sitting of tho House by the Leader of tho Opposition and tho Senior Government Whip that he was to speak almost at once. This savoured of sharp practice. He was not blaming the Senior Government "Whip. Ho thought he was entitled to some explanation. Mr Wilford (Leader of the Opposition): If tho hon. member will give way for a moment I will explain. Mr Atmoro (severely): No, I will not. You made your explanation before. Mr Atmore described as mere subterfuge Mr Coates’s decision to take his amendment ns a no-confidence amendment. While it was according to custom to take tho course tho Prime Minister had decided on, it was not incumbent on him to do so. The party negotiations ware still on, but ifbusiness men were taken from outside the House who saw the instability of representative institutions, they would fix the thing up in 20 minutes. It had_ been put before the people by both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition that they were in favour of fusion. • Mr lysnar had. declared himself sufficiently to prevent him from going back at the dictation of the Party Whip, and so on. The whole of the members -of the Reform Party when they came back from the election in 1922 met in conference and passed a resolution which should have made it unnecessary for any negotiations to-day. When men for selfish interests during the conduct of negotiations played this trick which had been played on mm that afternoon, it made him wonder. _ The only Parliament which was functioning to-day was that in the Old Country. Representative institutions in the world were breaking down because of the loaves and fishes. Was there a Government functioning in Australia to-day? Not one. The Government in New Zealand had not functioned for years- because it had not had a majority of the people. Notwithstanding all bis prestige Mr Massey had got only oS supporters in a House of 80 members at the last election. Mr Atmore contended that his , motion Was not a no-confidence motion. He maintained that he had said Mr Coates ought to be given a chance. TEXT OF THE AMENDMENT. Mr Atmore then quoted his amendment fcs follow^: 1. That It Is Imperatively necessary In the best Interests of the dominion that a strong, stable, national Government should be formed during the present session In order to provide a comprehensive policy of reconstruction and economrc and social betterment, and by so ministering to the true needs of the people avert the dangers of a breakdown of representative government, and the menace to orderly progress now threatening. owing to the increase of parties and the consequent Inability of the Government to function for the welfare of the State. 2. That no consideration of party advantage, personal ambitions, or claims of candidates should be allowed to block the way to the immediate formation of such, a National Government. 3. That in the event of the parties concerned falling to arrive at an agreement to establish such a Government, full information shall be given to the people showing the nature of the proposals discussed, and the attitude and actions of each party, so that the public may then Judge those who have failed to put national interests before the interests of parties and persons, and thns proved unworthy of the public confidence. PARTY BEFORE COUNTRY. It might be, he added, that it was proving an insuperable barrier to the members who were prepared to put party interests before country. ATTACK ON LABOUR. Mr Atmore proceeded to attack the Labour Party, who, he said, were linked up with Moscow. He recalled that Mr Fraser, the Labour member for Wellington Central, had stated that the downfall of Russia was part and parcel of the same World-wide movement that they were advocating in New Zealand politics. He quoted also from the Maoriland Worker similar sentiments in regard to the condition of affairs in Ireland. The Labour Party, he hell, had done nothing towards the solution of social problems. The Labour members said they were battling for the workers, but they were under the heel of the Labour caucus. He recalled the fact, that when the Prince of Wales was here, Mr Fraser had refused to sign the address of welcome to him, mistaking rudeness for principle. Tet at a meeting on May Day he was chiefly concerned in sending a message of fraternal greeting to his fellow .workers in Japan. He recalled the fact also that the Rev. Mr Chappie, a Labour supporter, had stated that he would sooner pray for a weasel than for a king. Tef they were told that this was the party of progress. The majority of the two other parties in the H®use, added Mr Atmore, were New Zealanders, but those in the Labour Party were not. They were men who were alien in thought to tho ordinary Britisher. With a foolish and short-sighted policy there were out to paralyse Industry in the country. Mr Atmoro quoted from their speeches to show that they were in favour of the repudiation. Thew had stated in that House that interest was something for nothing. In regard to the hard-up farmer, if or whom they had shod'tears of blood and a bigger flow of blood on tho eve of a general election, they said that the farmer was entitled to tho full fruits of his labour and exertion. But if they preached repudiation there would he nothing left for tho mortgagee. Now tho biggest mortgage in the eonntrv was the State itself, and yet the Labour Party preached its aiily tenure of the usehold. LABOUR AND .RUSSIA. Reverting to (Russia, with which the Labour Party was linked up, Mr Atmore said that up to February. 1922, 1,776,118 people had been executed. That number included 6675, prisoners and teachers, 8000 doctors, 1246 priests, 5456 officers, and 12,950 landowners. Yet to-day this Government in Russia was bogging money from the capitalistic States. The hon? member for Wellington Central had engaged in a street collection in aid of the sufferers in Russia, and in regard to a telegram sent to Lenin, one of tho world’s greatest murderers, had called for a rebuke from the hon. member for Lyttelton. That was the position j n ■which tho hon, member for Wellington Central found himself. He had challenged him to a debate on the. platform, but ho had not accepted the challenge. ITALY’S EXAMPLE. After what the Italians had done for their country was it, ho asked, too much to ask that the men who were supposed to represent Now Zealand should make a little sacrifice, -not of their lives, but of their I Jjuh and power?

THE MOTION SECONDED. Mr J. R. Corrigan seconded tho amendment, stating that he would reserve his right to spoak, as he understood tho Leader of the Opposition wished now to make a statement. Mr Speaker pointed out that Mr Wilford still had tho right to speak, and he could only make the statement with the consent of tho House. Ho put it to the House. Mr Atmoro calfed, “No.” adding, “Let him do it in his speech.” AIR FRASER’S SPEECH. Beginning his speech, Mr P. Fraser, Labour member for Wellington Central, announced his intention of dealing with one of tho minor critics of the Labour Party. After that ho would follow him on an excursion into the past. Mr Atmoro: I didn’t touch all of your past. Mr Fraser: The hon. gentleman can deal, with anything and everything he likes. My past is open. As for Mr Atmore’s challenge, tho member for Nelson had challenged him on several prior occasions in the House, and he had been prepared to meet him, but on the only occasion when they had met the hon. gentleman had found that tho electors of Wellington had left him with 300 votes to carry back to Nelson. Mr Fraser poured his scorn upon Mr Atmore’s “dhildiah challenges.” “Ho usett to challenge the late Prime Minister to go down to Nelson and debate with him.— (Laughter.) On two occasions I challenged him to debate on the platform. I am prepared to debate with him in Wellington or Nelson, wherever he likes, at any time. This miniature Mussolini from across Coon. Strait comes as a dove of peace. Up to the present ho has been more like a stormy petrel flying around and making a great fuss, and bringing a vote of no-confidence on the Government. Not long ago he could not find words strong enough to condemn. Now he appears as a twittering little dove, and he is angry because the Prime Min-, ister points out what every one else in tho (House know that one cannot move an amendment to tho Address-in-Roply without moving a vote of no-confidence in the Government —the only thing that the Government could have none. Mr Atmoro had represented tile Labour Party as being in little account. If that were-so why should he desire a fusion of the Reform and Liberal Parties to oppose Labour?” As for his statement that _ there were no New Zealand-bom leaders in the ■ LabourParty as in Reform and Liberal Parties, said Mr Fraser, that was on extraordinary cry for an Imperialist. “I would rather bo bom a man in Scotland than a jackass in New Zealand,” he declared, “but the hon. gentleman is not a fair criterion of the New Zealander. A New Zealander is a person, fair, generous, honourable, and just, re would be wrong for visitors to New Zealand to judge by the hon. gentleman. Mr Fraser maintained that tho preamble of the Labour Conference moved by Mr Hoiland was not an I.W.W. document. Mr W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne): What is the difference in it? . Mr Fraser: I can explain it point by point.” The I.W.W. does not believe in constitutional action and attacks the Labour PiErty more violently than they do tho Government. . Mr Lysnar: What about Bolshevism? _ Mr Fraser: I am prepared to condemn m Russia what I would here. I am prepared to condemn the expulsion of a man for his political opinions in Russia (and I know that it has taken place) as I would condemn it here. LABOUR’S AMENDMENT. As for the Russian murders, ho took as little responsibility for thorn as did the hon. gentleman for the murders which had taken place under tho regime of the Czar, lie V/ishcd to move Amendment to Mr Atmore’s amendment. Thte was that dll the words after “is” should be omitted, and that these words bo inserted: “Desirable in the best interests of tho dominion that the three-party system should come to an end, end that the proposed union between tho Reform and Liberal Parties should bo consummated; that there is no single political principle upon which the two parties mentioned are in disagreement, end that no question of portfolios, personal ambitions, or claims of candidates is any justification for blocking the way to the immediate formation of a united Conservative Party or fo~ tho Reform and Liberal Parties remaining apart.” ATTACK ON MR ATMORE. Mr Fraser then commenced detailing Mr Atmore’s political career, and quoted many statements mado by him in the past—statements very different in tone from his speech to tho amendment. “The Labour platform is easily the best platform,” quoted Mr Mr "W. B. Parry (Auckland Central); Who said that? Mr Fraser: He did. Mr A. L. Monteith (Wellington East): Oho! . . Mr Fraser (quoting): “But it is not original Their platform is the gathering together of the thoughts and discoveries of the great men of all times.—(Uproarious laughter.) Take, for instance, their plank of common The early churches hold common ownership.” Menacers: When was this ? Mr Fraser: The date of this is July, 1920. Mr F. W. Bertram (Grey Lynn): It’s a good statement. Mr Fraser (flinging ont his arms): For once the hon. member and myself are in complete agreement. If . he is prepared to take up what he says, then come over here.—(Loud Labour and Reform laughter.) A Labour Member: Oh, no! Mr Fraser (amidst renewed merriment) : I bow to the decision of my party. When Mr Atmoro entered the House in 1911, continued Mr Fraser, a mystery surrounded him, and it had never been solved. He was claimed by the’ Tories and by the Liberals. He came into tho House, a precocious youth of 41 years. His precocity wjis shown by . the fact that he objected to the method of addressing the House. It was good enough for other members, but not for him, and ho wanted to walk out into the middle of the floor. He might have been right. Ho might have had an important message for the people, but if so he lost it or mislaid it. —(Laughter.) Neither of the two parties was satisfactory to the dominion, and by joining two unsatisfactory parties the hon. gentleman was going to make a satisfactory party. “ I could go on all day with these revolutionary statements,” said Mr Fraser, “each exciting the multitude to rebel against tho serried host* of the then Government. Mr Fraser quoted statements by Mr Atmore to the effect that the Prime Minister was unfit to lead his Majesty’s Government in this country; that the strike was a phase of industrial revolution, and “like the measles the sooner wo got it tho sooner we got over it” Mr F. Langstone: He’s an early “Bolshy.” Another Labour member: LW.W. Mr Fraser said that he knew of I.W.W. statements less forcible than some of the hon. member’s. “A man who sends charges recldessly flying round this chamber,” said Mr Fraser, “whose voice was the only one raised against the Leader of the Opposition just now, should be the last person on earth who should appoint himnolf as a messenger of peace, and to try to coo like a sucking dove.” Mr Fraser added that he did not object to intelligent criticism, but he had not received it. Ballance, Seddon, and the late Mr Massey, nor even Sir George Grey, tho great pro-consul and Prime Minister had not been fortunate enough to choose New Zealand as the place of their birth, but had not been the worse for that. Mr Fraser sat down and Mr D. G. Sullivan (Avon) seconded his amendment, reserving his right to speak. MR. ATMORE EXPLAINS. Mr Atmore claimed that ho hod been misrepresented, and on being allowed to speak,/said: “He did not reply to a single charge.” Mr Speaker; Order, order ! Mr Fraser: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. gentleman should comply with your ruling. Mr Atmore then said that his position on his first entry to tho House had been that of an Independent Liberal, which he had remained ever since. He had been elected against two candidates representing the principal parties and two other candidates. MR ATMORE AND 'THE WAR. Mr Lee, the Labour member who lost, half his arm in the war was tho next speaker. He twitted Mr Atmore with not having gone to f.ae war. Ho said the bon. member for Nelson was born in 1870. and when the war broke-out ho was a very strong, fit man, wont to go long crosscountry walks, but when asked why ho did not serve he said it wa.s on account of tho age limiy. Mr Leo added that Mr Atmoro wanted to debate with one of tho leaders of the party. The office boy in the Maoriland M orker office would bo able to rend the attacks of the hon. member. He twitted the member for Nelson with being patriotic in words. In that respect the test of a man’s sincerity was whether, being fit. he pulled' his share in the boat. Whv did ho not go to tt a war? Mr Langstone; Ho couldn’t afford U, Mr Lee; Mv friend, the member for \V:i Irnarino, be could not nfford b Did be era to tho war in South Africa ? A Labour Member: Il« wn.* *no 'onmr. Mx Loo: I do not he wont

to any war. I have not said anything in praise of myself or of any person for going to the war. lam only judging the non. member by his own standard, and by that standard I am afraid ho does not ccirio up to the mark. Not for him tno sereeohhig of the • shells, but only the screech mgs of his own voice. MEMBERS’ PLEDGES. The Hon. Mr Anderson said he, with others, would like to see a strong National Government. 'J here wa.s no question about that, but the lion, member for Nelson was, on his own showing, a free lance., with no pledge to his electors in regard to supporting a party. He forgot that members on the Liberal side and members on the Reform side had made pledges, There was no doubt whatever that his amendment was tantamount to a vote of no confidence, ’the loader of the Reform Party based his conclusions on authorities in jjarliamentary practice, winch lie had a perfect right to do. Personally, he had never known any Government that did not regard an addendum to a Govern or-General’s speech as other than a want of confidence. Ho did not think that any leader could do so. The hon. morn her for Nelson was asking them to bo disloyal to the pledges they had made on the hustings. Another very important point was that the electors themselves had a say in the matter. The hon. members had accused the Government of putting party before country. “I know,” added Mr Anderson, ‘‘what has happened in this matter. I know "that that consideration has not entered into it at all. The Prime Minister has had the resignation of every one of his colleagues in his hands right from the commencement, and no Minister has endeavoured to prevent fusion if the parties are of opinion that it should he arranged.” Ho added later that ho believed in regard to the Prime Minister, that the feeling in the country to-day was that ho should bo given a fair opportunity to prove himself. When the member for Nelson said that the Reform Party and the Reform Government would not survive ho forgot that there was a new leader, and that British fair play would give the new loader an opportunity. When the House rose for the dinner adjournment the atmosphere was electric, and certain members could bo seen and heard reproaching each other. The most unperturbed of them all was the Prime Minister, who, throughout the afternoon, listened to the debate and at the same time dealt with a big file of departmental papers. When the House adjourned ho was cheerful and smiling, and his party seemed quite confident and happy. LABOUR CRniCISM ANSWERED. Mr Anderson, who resumed his speech after dinner, loft the subject of fusion and proceeded to talk of ordinary matters. Ho replied at some length to the Labour criticism about pensions, housing, etc. The afternoon storm had given place to a calm and the interest in fusion, at least for the time being, ‘ flagged. Mr Anderson said he had sat for four or five days listening to the criticisms of the Labour Party. Ho challenged any social student to 'ook through the Statute Books since 1912 and say that this Government had not boon the friend, and the best friend, that the worker in this country had over had in tho Government of New Zealand. A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. Tlio Hon. Mr Hainan spoke at some length on what ho termed the abuses that took place under party Government'. He was satisfied the public did not approve of secret negotiations. Mr Massey had been removed by death. Mr Wilford had said ho did not want office, and therefore two obstacles to a National Government had boon removed. Because of the fusion negotiations there was an admission that a National Government was wanted. National considerations wore being sacrificed to party interests. A vicious attack had been mado on tho member for Nelson, but tho substantial majority with which ho had been elected showed tho high estimation in which ho (was held by his constituents. A Labour Member: You’re doing well with a bud case. MR LLBNAR’S ATTITUDE. Mr W. D. Lysnar interested tho House with an announcement that he did not intend to vote on Mr Atrnoro’s amendment. “It seems to mo,” he said, “that tho loaders, not having agreed, there are three reasons why I shall not vote for tho amendment. At the same time I am not going to vote against it. I agree with the amendment by the member for Nelson.” Labour Members; Then vote for it. Mr Lysnar’s reasons wore: That until the result of tho fusion negotiations were known ho did not think his vote should precipitate the matter; that tho Government, having treated the amendment as a no-confidence motion, and as his vote might deprive tho country of tho advantage of the services of the new Prime Minister, and until Mr Coates had had a chance of making good ho did not wiah to be a party to voting him out of office; and that ho thought it was tho duty of tho leaders of the two main parties to come to terms on this question, and if they were unable to come to terms ho did not foel inclined to take the responsibility of forcing matters. Ho thought the matter of compulsion should rest with the electors. In his opinion no fusion should be mado unless a definite policy were agreed on. There was no man in tho House more desirous of fusion than ho was, but be recognised tho danger of it unless it were carried through on true and proper principles. Ho thought tho whole House was for it, though there were differences of opinion. -VINEGAR OF LIBERALISM.” Mr Langstone (Wairnarino) expressed wonder ns to would ho tho result of the proposed mixture of the “vinegar of Liberalism” with the “gall of Reformism.” Tho member for Nelson, in fact, had created a political atmosphere, tho effect of which it was difficult to see. Mr Langstone contrasted Mr Atmore’a strictures on the Reform Party a few years ago with his advocacy of its fusion with the Liberals to-day. NEGOTIATIONS STILL IN PROGRESS. “As no statement has been mado in regard to fusion, one feels in a difficult position as to what should bo done,” was the manner in which Mi - A. Harris began an interesting reference to his own position. To a certain extent one’s hands wore tied. This amendment having boon accepted by tho Loader of the Government as a noconfidence motion, there was only one thing Mr Harris could do—-vote against the amendment of the member for Nelson. Ho regretted he would bo forced to vote against the amendment. He would like, if ho had a free hand, to vote for it. There was never a time when it was more necessary that a strong, substantial Government should be formed. With the narrow majority the Government had at present it had not been able to carry out its programme as it would have been had it had a more substantial majority. He knew of no reason why tho two parties should not come together. The difference between, the two was merely tho difference between ’ tho ins and the outs. As for the differences on the basic principle he failed to find them. There wore one or two,minor differences which reasonable men could overcome. If tho negotiations failed there would be a cry throughout the country. That night’s proceedings wore an indictment of the party system which was on trial. Ho would not like to see happen anything that would break down the negotiations which, ho understood, wore still in progress. *■ GETTING HIS OWN BACK. Mr Atmoro rose to get a little of his own back. Ho said he regarded the political Billingsgate of the member for Wellington Central as a compliment. Speaking on Mr Fraser’s amendment to his (Mr Atmore’s) amendment, Mr Atmoro traversed tho arguments and the statements of the Socialistic advocates. They were all things to all men. When they addressed the farmers they promised to take over mortgages to help the man on the land, but in tho towns they advocated confiscation. One Socialist member of this House had stated that the party’s aim was to abolish Parliament as at present constituted, and put in its place an assembly of “useful people.” So long as any country had a weak government it wa.s -shiv. to have a strong mob. Therefore a union of the Reform and Liberal Parties necessary to present a solid front against tho revolutionary Socialistic elements. MR SULLIVAN’S REPLY.

At 11 p.m. the feud between Mr Atm ore and the Labour Party was still being continued. Mr Sullivan replied to Mr Atinore’s second speech. He paid whenever he hoard Mr Atmoro speaking lio thought of the phrase that was applied to Iho Kaiser, “Me and God.” The debate, however, had lost interns*., and tho public galleries. which had been full in tho early stages of the evo.ning proceedings, gradually emptied. Twenty women remained in the three ladies' galleries. and 38 men in Mr .Speaker’s and tho public gallery. All the Legislative Councillors had gone to bed. The House itself was tired of the debate and was half empty. The Labour amendment was defeated by 51 votes to 16, the Liberals, with t-he exception -of Mr Corrigan, voting with the Government. Mr Holland m-p to speak at 11.30 p.m. Ho denounced Mr Atrnore's attitude Now that tho Labour amendment bad been defeated, he said, ho wished to rrlato tho

Labour Party’s position, and he hoped the member for kelson would remain in the Chamber and not escape to the outer darkness as ho did when Die member for Avon was leplying to him. Mr A tin ore : You flatter yourself. Mr Holland: The hon. gentleman has a habit of running away after he has fired his shot. It was unfortunate that the Labour Party would have to go into the same lobby with the member for Nelson. — (Laughter.) There is no member they would less prefer to go into the lobby with.

Mr Atmoro: I quite believe it. But, added, Mr Holland, tho Labour Party, unlike the member for Nelson, who voted one day with the Government and the next day agaiijst it, will be consistent and will vote with 'him against the Government. .

Mr Holland said that Mr Atmore was out to get solidarity by starting a party of one.

Mr Holland was still speaking at midnight. Tho Government hopes to get tho second division to-night, and then gel back to tho main question. Mr Holland was saying the Labour Party had not advocated tho breaking np of the British Empire, but had advocated conversion of it into a commonwealth of nations. Mr Lysnar: I would not trust you. Mr Holland (quick as a flash); I have a recollection that, the bank would not trust tho hon. gentleman.—(Loud laughter.) Following is the division list on Mr Atrnoro’s araendmnet: —

For Amendment (50). —Armstrong, Atntoro, La r tram, Pcrrollo, Forbes, Fraser, llanan, Holland, Horn, Howard, Lang- ■ stone, Lee, Lye, M'Combs, MTlvrido, M'Kay, M’Koon, M’Phorson, Masters. Monteith, Munro, O’Brien, Parry, Ransom, Savage, Sidoy, Smith, Sullivan, Yeitch. Wilford.

Against tho Amendment (34). —Anderson, Beil, Bitcbener, Bollard, Burnett, Coates, Dickson J. M‘C., Dickson «t. S., Field, Girling, Glenn, Harris, Hawkcn, Hockley. Hudson, Hunter, Linklater, Luke, M’Lennan, M’Lood, M’Millan, Nash, Nosworthy, Parr, Poland, Pomare. Potter, Rhodes Sir R H.. Rhodes T. W., Holloston F. J., Kollcston J. C., Sykes, Williams, Wright. Pairs.—For; Jordon, Buddo, Murdoch, Edie, Thomson Ngata. Corrigan. Against; Stewart, Guthrie, Witty, Isitt, Uru, Henaro, Young. The amendment was therefore defeated.