UNIVERSITY SENATE.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 17215, 18 January 1918, Page 2

UNIVERSITY SENATE.

SECOND DAY'S PROCEEDINGS.

Tho Senate of tho Now Zealand University continued its sessions) at tho Univorsity library at 10 a.m. yesterday, tho Chancellor presiding.

A telegraphic request was received from tho New Zealand Accountants' Society that tho Senato should receive a deputation from tho society with reference to its examination proposals, as submitted to tho Board of Studies last Outibcr. —It waa decided to receive tho deputation at 10 o'clock on Saturday morning if possible.

On tho motion of tho Hon. J. A. Tolo, it waa decided to rcappoint Dr Erniost Robertson a member of tho Board of Governors of tho Axickland Grammar School. A letter was received from the- secretary of tho New Zealand Kducational Institute asking that representatives of tho institute bo associated with the? oommitteo of tho Sonato dealing with university courses. — Tho Chancellor pointed out that such representatives could not bo associated with tho committee, but it was decided to reply that tho committee would bo very glad to roccivo any representations tho institute cared to make. It was reported that there had been r;0 competition this year for tho Bowen Prize, and tho examiners for next year woro appointed. B.A. Course. Amendments to tho regulations governing the B.A. eourso proposed by tho Board of Studies were explained by Professor Segar. Lengthy discussion took placo on the first amendment fixing the number of years' work required , of students before they could obtain an advanced pasa in any subject. Thero waa difference of opinion as to the strngency of the standard that should bo required, and much difference as to tho moaning and effect of various amendments proposed. Eventually a committee, consisting of Professors Sejjar (chairman), Hunter, and Hight, Dr Marshall, and Mr von liaast, waa set tip to consider and report upon "repeat" subjects mentioned in tho B.A. Statute.

After tho mid-dav adjournment Profeesor Segar brought down the report of tho committee, which recommended that tho Senato adhoro to section 1 of tho degree of .Bachelor of Arts, as adopted by it in January, 1917, the necessary adjustments being mado in the prescriptions of the pass and advanced grades to meet the objections raised on tho Board of Studies; that tho teachers of tho subject be asked to consider tho necessary adjustments and report to tho Board of «Studie= at its meeting next November. He moved the adoption of tho report, which was seconded by Professor Marshall and carried.

Other amendments proposed by the Board of Studies wero lost

THE ATKINSON FHIZK. Tho proposal conditions of the Arnold Atkinson Memorial Prize lay clown thnt it is to bo , of tho valuo of not moro than £10, to bo civen every alternate year, for an essay. The prizo shall bo open to all matriculated students who shall not have taken their degree, but it shall not bo awarded moro than, once to the samo undergraduate. Thero shall bo threo examiners, who shall select the subject, which will be given out in tho month of March in each alternate, year, and tho essays shall be sent in to tho registrar before December 31. The subject of tiio essay shall be connected with or shall boar referonoo to the history, constitution, citizenship, or development of the British Empire, and of its component parts, and their mutual relations, to tho relation of tho Empire and its component parts to other nations, to tho races under British sovereignty or protection, and to past and present systems of government, a study and comparison of which is helpful in elucidating tho problems arising in tho development of tho British Empire. Tho essays must bo sent in with a motto prefixed, but without the name of tho writer attached. Tho decision of the examiners to bo mado known and the prizo awarded by tho Senate at its annual session in January. Tho next award of the bieimial prizo will be mado in January, 1919. ,

Mr Von Haasfc in-referring to the prize said it would be noted that tho prize money must be spent in books on the subject prescribed, tho very essence of the prize being that tho winner bo encouraged to proceed with the prosecution of his study of the subject. Ho moved that the Senate accept the prizo and approve the condition stipulated. This motion was seconded by the Rev. W. A. Evans and carried.

Mr von Haast further moved that the examiners bo Professor Hight. Mr H. D. Acland (a member, of tho Round Table group in Canterbury), and the mover. The motion was seconded by the Rev. \V. A. Evans, and carried SCHOOLS AND THE UNIVERSITY. Mr Tibbs moved in accordance with notice given—"That a committee bo appointed to investigate and report upon the relationships of entrance scholarships to senior scholarships B.A. degree, and honours, the report to bo made this session; the committee, to consist of tho Vice-chan-cellor (Professor Maemillan Brown), Hon. Mr Hanan. Professor Sfegar, Professor Hight, Dr Anderson, Dr Marshall, Mr Mahon, and the mover." Mr Tibbs pointed out that many students could not afflord a fourth year at . tho university and were therefore debarred from winning honours. Four years were required for that by tho New Zealand! University, though honours could bo won at Cambridgo in three years. Ho was very sorry that the Board of Studies should have received his proposals on tho subject with such scant courtesy. Both the board and tho Slenato had got to learn that great changes had taken place in the educational world hero during tho last few years owing to tho operation of the free place system. Mr Tibbs pointed out ways in which tho existing regulations of entrance and senior scholarships boro hardly on certain students, and complained that boys who had reached junior university scholarships standard at school had to go' over the samo work again at the university for throe years before sitting , for tho B.A. examination. He hoped that some arrangement would be mado that would allow tho most promising students to win honours in three years instead of four as at present. Ho was asking for a committee to revise the whole of the relations between tho schools and tho university. Dr Lindo Ferguson, in seconding the motion, said he had pointed out 20 years ago that tho standard of tho junior university scholarship was practically tho standard of the B.A. degree, and therefore any boy ■who had reached that standard at school was wasting his time at the university afterwards, so far as educational attainments wore concerned. He had complained then of the pressure being put on in the schools, the pace being made to suit the fastest and strongest horse, and all the slower ones suffering. If boys could be educated up to the B.A. standard in the Fifth Form of tho hish schools, then they might well epend their last year at school learning tho rudiments of science if they were going in for a scientific vocation. Tho motion waa carried. COTJESES FOE HONOTJES. Mr von Hoast supported the resolution of tho Board of Studies, urging the Senate to abandon tho proposal to count two languages as tho equivalent of one subject at the advanced stage. He held that in "repeating,," two languages should continue to count as two separate subjects. Professor Hunter moved as an amendment that the question be referred to the Degrees and Commerce Committee. He claimed that many people were- getting into tho language department of the University who had no business there at all. They took vm languages for honours simply because tfiey had eomo previous knowledge of them and Ijeeanso that appeared tho easiest road to tho degree. Professor Segnr seconded tho amendment and pointed out that the student who elected to read for honours in kngnagrs had to take only two subjects outside his honours courso, whilo a student going for honours in any other Bubject had to tako four subjects outside his honours courso. Students wero advised early in their courso that if they took \m languages they would get. off two subjects. Ho said that tho year before last the Canterbury Board had compiled certain figures of those students who contemplated taking honotn-s. Theso ehowed' that 18 mtend-od to tako honours in English, 22 in Latin, 19 in French, thrco in mathematics, six in chemistry, «ix in philosophy, nino in oconomics, "11 in history, 10 in botany, and ono in geology. That waa to say that 61 _ students contemplated taking honours in languages as against 46 taking , honours in all other snbjecta combined. In langrnases 63 etudents took a "doublo repeat," while In all others only 24- took a " doublo repeat." • The motion was carried, LAWN AS A SUBJECT,

Professor Manniillan Brown (Vlce-Chan-cellor) moved the adoption of the recommendation of tho Board of Studies:—That, ns Latin is no longer compulsory at the pass standard of thn B.A. degrree, the Senate bo asked to malce a pass in Latin at tho standard of matriculation compulsory on all candidates for that degree. Ho thought that seeing that Latin had keen dropped from tlio ;wss standard of the B.A. degree a start should bo mado somewhere with tho study of Latin, and tlie motion was Hho smallest

concession tho Senate should iviaito. Thoso who wcro working for the future should take- caro not to meddio too greatly with Uio past-. Ho thought they tihould at, least try to attain something that would liuk them with tho past—a pust that \va3 bo honouniblo mid so grout. But it was not on sentiment alono that h<> wished to uphold tlio tendinis of Latin. I'liero won.' thoso who thought that they wen; advancing bociuiao they wero knocking tho, props of tho past away. Ho did not propose appealing merely to sentiment, but to what was useful and what was material. Latin had been tho basis of all tho professions, ai\-l it was still retained as tho technical language of tho professions, lie eoukl not see how anyone, could manipulate the, Knglish language with proper facility without knowing something of Latin. Those who wished to know something of culture must know something- of Latin. Further, ho considered that the abandonment of Latin in tho secondary schools would 'bo fatal to intellectual discipline. Moreover, tho I*atin language had a grammar which was absolutely essential. 110 considered it was impossible to tench tho modern Latin languages—French and Spanish—without some knowledge of tho grammar of Latin. Professor Kirk said that in spito of tho fact that ho disagreed practically with tho wholo of th'o views expressed by the ViceChanecllor. he. proposed supporting the motion. Ho supported tho motion principally on tho grounds that they should not go too fast. lie thought they had gone quite far enough when they abolished Latin as a compulsory pass standard of tho B.A. degree. Mr W. J. Mahon opposed the motion, and quoted authorities in support of his contention that Latin was no longer essential. If tho Senate wero to adopt tho motion it meant tho reinstatement of what had been thrown out. He considered it would bo preferable to drop Latin and give more attention to the study of tho mother tongue. Ho was of opinion that a wrong was being done to a boy when, he was compelled study something ho had no aptitude for, and for tho reason that it could not bo stimulated. . Dr Anderson (Director of Education) said that although he was opposed to the motion, he was still desirous of seeing Latin taken by those who were capable of taking it. It must, however, be understood that the university did not exist for a select few, but for the benefit of the majority. Mr Tibbs said his views wero in direct antithesis to those of Professor Kirk, lie agreed with every word that had fallen frdin tho vice-chancellor, but he was going to vote against him, for- he behoved that Latin was well able to look alter itselt. Ho did not think there was ground for the fear that Latin was falling off as a university subject. . . ~ . ~ Mr Hanan expressed tho opinion that it the motion was carried it would be a retrograde step. Ho thought that the study of Anglo-Saxon would give better results than the study of Latin. Latin had been made a fetish. A test of study was its use, and in tho great majority of cases students obtained merely a smattering of Latin and dropped it altogether at the first opportunity. Ho combated tho suggestion that a knowledge of Latin gave a man wide command of language. It was necessary that education should be brought more and moro into relation with tho needs of everyday life. The Rev. A. Cameron said that though ho would vote against tho vice-chancellor's motion, lie valued Latin and its discipline very highly. Merely to require that students" should have enough, knowledge- of Latin to get 40 per cent, with matriculation examination was a waste of time. Mr Von llaast said he would support tho motion because he believed if thoy did not pass such a. motion Latin would be absolutely dead in the education of this country. *If Latin was thrown over it should at leasi be replaced by some knowledge of Roman and Greek history. .

Dr Marshall supported the vice-chancel-lor. He said that in doing fo he was reversing his vote of last year, and ho reversed it on account of the action of tho Board of Studies. Professors of modem languages found that they could not teach then- decree work effectively unless their students had a matriculation knowledge of Latin.

Mr Adams emphasised the last point mado by Dr Marshall, and supported the motion in the interests of the professors of modern languages. Tho Chancellor pointed out that this proposal did not make Latin compulsory in the ■university, but on children in tho secondary schools. There were 36 universities in America, some of them the best in the United States, that did not require Latin either on admission; or after admission. lie did not think that Latin helped much in the study of English. The Classical Association in London took up the attitude that it did not want Latin made compulsory, but nsked only that teachers of Latin should be provided. After Professor Brown had replied, the motio.i was put, , ' and on a division being taken it was found that tho voting was 11 and 11, and it was declared lost on tho principle of maintaining the status quo.