BIBLE IN SCHOOLS.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 15300, 14 November 1911, Page 8

BIBLE IN SCHOOLS.

DISCUSSION IN PRBSnniERIAN ASSEMBLY.

THE NEW SOUTH WALES SYSTEM.

IMPOUTAST CHANGE PREDICTED.

An important discussion on tho Biblc-Jn-Schools qiration with particular reference to what is known ae tfroXelaon system and tho Now South Wales system took pluce in tho Presbyterian General Assembly yo&terdry morninir, Tho discission arose in connection with the report of the " Biblo-in-Scliools Committee,' which was presented by its convenor, the llcv. R. J. l'ortor. The' report was as follows:— "Your committee has pleasure in reporting thai tho classes in existence lost year are etill carried en with unabated zeal on the part of ministers and others, and with tho helpful sympathy and co-operation of head masters and ccliool committees. Tho Tiinant cla&»s referred to in our last report have been in operation einco tho beginning of the yoar, all tho Protestant mitmtors of ttw town taking port in tho work. A few additional classes huvo been formed, bat much niore might have been accomplished in this direction bad tJx> people throughout the Dominion realised rnaro fully tho importance of making tho rising generation acquainted with tho law of God. The wholo history of this movenrent shows tho necessity {or moro activo efforts. tliaiiUiave jd been put forth if no are- to succeed in oar purpose. Parliament will not move-in tho matter until tho oloctare generally demand either that facilities ho given to tJio lccognifwl tcwlicre of religion to import Uiblo. instruction during ordinary school hours, or that tho reading of Italy Scripture bo made a part of the school curriculum; and tho electors to & krgo fiitcnt will remain indifferent unices the Church rouses thoir attention and instructs them ne to tho vital importance of making tho young people in our schools thoroughly acquainted with tho Book that is tho basis of Christian faith and morals. Your cotniriilioo, while gladly wokoming end,willing to support any reasonable solution' of'thi£ most .important question, would again urge ministers and elder* meanwhile to do hII in their power to introduce tho Nelson system of Bible tending mid iretniction into tho schools within their bounds— a system Hat is working admirably in w> many of.onr schools, both largo and rmall, without seriously interfering 'with tho ardi-

nery courao of secular instruction." Tho Rev. R. J. Portor (Oanwru), in moving the adoption of tlio report, oxpressed tho for tliat wo would havo a god'.css generation growing up in this country. Thoy had linoly cquippe<l Sunday schools and an increesiug nuiiiuir of Mm

cluecs, but if thoy did not look after tho

religious teaching of tho young dnrinr: tho v<«k tlicro was a <langer..tliat tlw&c young people would imagine that tlio Biblo and religion were tilings for Sunday, ami had nothing to do with tlio things of tho week. That would be a very grave disaster. Ho proceeded to trace briefly the history of tho BiUo-in fohools . movement in thu Presbyterian Church' since tho Biblo woe excluded iTom tho public schoole of the Dominion moro llian 30 years ago. In tho leadership of tlio movement Dγ Stuart had been succeeded by Ur Copland, who was followed by Ur Gifab. I)r Uitb had ft-eim- . ouslv endeavoured to secure from tho Go-VC.-lflilCJlt tliat il ICH.TCill.Ulll O!_ llU< pVOpIU should bo taken on the question, but in

the las! report he presented there was a tone of indignation and des-roir- Tho ncw committee, of which lie was convener, had felt .thnt it would be ns?lffs to p-wed upon tho old linos, and it had resolved t<. p'Jsh what was known as tho " iMclioii fystem " as viaoroti-ly as powiblc. At tlio present tinio tlioro were between 200 and 300 dosses in operation under this system, ronjucttd mainly by ministers of their own Church and of oilier Churelics, but in a good many instances with tJio ossistanoo of tho kJiool teaolwrs. Tlwse classes were conducted inside ordinary school hours, but outsido tho school hours of tho particular d*y on ■which thoy were hold. Sir Robert Stout hod assured them that there wss no broach of tho law in tho system, of which tho Rov. ,1. H. Mackenzie, tho respected clerk of Assembly, was tlio father.—(Applause.) It had been doinjt splendid work for the last 13 jean?, and thousands of ohildron had been influenced by it. Thoy owed a great debt to many of the teachors for tho ass'stanco they had given. These lessons, though ho know they wero dospisod by some, were inGnitcl- better than nothing.—(Loud applause.) Between 8000 and 10,000 leseonJ wero given throughout the year, and who could eay what tho influence upon these young lives must bet Tho system had its drawbacks, and many wero not slow to point them out. Some education boards wero not in sympathy, and up to tho present timo had refused to shorten, even by 30 minutes, the time devoted to wcu-ar instruction. Ho was convinced that if they showed a united front those boards would, in tho very near future, accedo to ttair request and (five them liberty to carry on tho Nelson system. It had been eaid that ministers could not ovor- ! take tho work, and that was perfectly true,

but thero wero many others who' wero willing to assist. A eroat deal more might have been done than had been done. If t'lcy had pone, into tlio mattor with any degree of enthusiasm instead of having ' 203 or 300 they wou'd havo had seven or j 1 eight or . nino hundred o'-araee in j ' operation. Whcro tlio sohool was handy i ; and liberty was given by the board, ho i could not but feel that tho minister was , i to blame who did not sosk to enter that school and dovoto half an hour a week to that most important work.—(App'.auso.) j ' Thoro seemed to be a revival of a desire for something better and something greator than was .being carried on under tho Nelson • system. Their Biblc-in-Schools Committee > was not opposed to tlio New South Wales ) system, and it had resolved unanimously i ! to support tho special committeo that had t been set up to deal with it. At the «amo • time he very much questioned whether trrvy wore going to get the Now South Wales system or any other larger than they had n't present for a long time.

i Dr Gibb: Three yoare! Mr Porter: Dr Gibb knowe very well ; there is n-:t tho ghost of a chance of i ! getting the Ncw South Wales system in three ytars. Dr Gibb: After next election. _ Continuing, Mr Porter asked if they could not do a littlo moro to rmeh the Nelson extern and fihow the Government that thiy had a rieht to bo hoard, seeing ' they wore prepared themselves to do tlm \*.Tk the-y were asking others to tinonrtake. 110 strenuously urfpod tho ministers and oflicc-boarcre to see if they could not ost&blish im at least some of the schools throughout their district clos-es undor Iho Nelson system. These things they ought to do, and not to leavo tho other undone. It seemed to him that when there was a largo cominitteo dealing with tho New South -Walts system this committee, of which ho wae convener, might bo disbanded. Thero was a difficulty in having two committees. Ho hud much pleasuio

in moving tho adoptinu of tho report. i\lr *\. S. Fiugorald tecoi,ued tlio ! motion. He had been interested in Bible i classes in schools longer than pcrsibly most 1 of them knew, and ho was persuaaod that ! in this connection tho Church was blunder- ■ ing badly. They wore making a great mistake in.the manner in which they were supporting thti movement. Ho had urged them to take advantage of tho opportunity I deliberately given in tho net to give Biblo lessons during the five hours given up to secular education, but Dr Stuart and olhora bad oppuod tirn. Later he hud been inslructe.l to eot aside a half-hour for religioua instruction in tho Training College, and ho hod over ami over again had testimony from old pupils as to the lienefit of hall-hour. Ho urged tho elders and minister? present not to content themselves with merely supporting tho motion, but to go back with tho resolution that before many days elapsed thero would bo a Bible clasa under tho Notion system in their district, lie was not at all in sympathy with the idea that the JJiWc-in-Schools" Committee should bo disbanded. Ho thought tho New South Wales system nearer possibly than Mr Porter

I thought, but still thero was a grcat_ work that might bo dono in the meantime Tho IU'V, II W. Jackson (Southbridge) said Ik) did not think tho ministers were doing tl'oic duty in this matter. Thero had boon religious instruction for a wholo I hour in tho high school in his district for : over 30 years. The school board was ' (leaimt them, but they '.vent on in spite of tho schoolboard.—(Laughter.) They often got official protests, but they just as often put tlxMii in tho waste pu|>er basket, and why could tlio other eburches not do the samo7—(Laughter.) The Catholics and tho Anglicans and tho Prosbytcrians each pave at: hour's instruction every week. Why did tlicy not opplnid that?—(Applause and laughtor.)

"Touting for praise," commented Dr (;ibb. " If you .had not been so dull, doctor, yon would have been tho fust," retorted :Mr Jackson, ainid much nmuewncnt In I conclusion, ho urged them to ro homo determined, in tho nnmo of God nnd of • hnmnnity, that the children in their disI trict should bn taught onco n vrcok from lino Word of God

Tho Her. P. B. Franor drew attention to tho fact thai by tho pretont kw they

uld have tho children withdrawn for w ligtoiis instruction during school hours, hi d havo thorn counted and marked for at- • ndanco in tho ordinary way. The Roman rr itholics could do this, and they did do. it. ni tho uso of tlio school wore not grouted o ey could uso the law in such a way thnt tl entually reasonable coiiditicus would bo adv. . c ' The Rev. A. Whyto (Fort Chalmors) faid si > had been asked by a gentloman who •! is unable to be present to bring a , small V 1 ;m of iuformstion before tho Assembly. » his was relative to nn esiuninnlion in si wore! Scripture knowledge recently conicted in one of the Otago District High l •honk After indioatiiur tho nature of tho » isuors received, Mr Whyto summarised "J ie results by saying ho learned from them • iat most of our children knew- littlo about Jj Iμ Bible, and a Ifow of them Jcnow [ Ming; that more and bettor teaching was ' rquirod on Sabbath and week days; and ' iat if tho adults know a* littlo as tho c lildren then a great deal of their preach- " ig was lost-("Hcar hoar,")-becauso its * eripture allusions wero not understood, Tho report was adopted. i Tho Rev, R, E. Danes laid on tho tablo io report of tho committeo appointed at io last General Assembly of which ho was ( onvenor, to inqniro into tho Now South Wes system. Tho following presbyteries, o eaidl had reported in favour of tho , ommittco's report:-Southland, Wellingra. Hawkc's Bay, Timaru. Christchurelu ( Sutha, Dim*tan, Nelson, Auckland,* Ma- ( iura, Oamoru, Duncdin, and Wanpvnui— iradically every Presbytery with tho ex- , option of Waikato, Wtetrand, and Tara- , iaki. A number of sessions had ak> orwurded their reports in favour of Uio , ommitteo's report. Thoj had hnd no aderso report from any quarter with to;ard to tl» proposals of tho committeo. n most ensea ithoy had had approval of ho Now South Wales system, and that was noro than tj»y lied asked for. There vera difficulties in pushing tho system in tvery part of the church, because, it dolendod largely on the attitude of tho sducation Board in each district At pro<snt some of the most import-ant boards efusod absolutely to grant what was askod indcr tho Ncw South Wales system. Thoy

isked now for powers to get behind tho wards and let tiio pwjilo decide wliollior heir children wore to roceivo an ndequato ■eligious instrnction or not. Tho plea 'or secular education reeted on a mislndcrstanding of the vorj nature of oducaion itself. Tho fundimsntal work of sducaiion <raa to dovolop powers not only if tho mind, but also of tlio heart and sill and eonflrience\ Tho foundation.? of )ur Western morality had in c(Fect disapxsared from our public schools. Ho quoted ho stakiment of an authority that there vas Ktmcthing fundaincnUlly rigilt in tho jervnan system, whicli includnl roligion »s a subject of etudy from the earliest

itaged of development.—(Applause.) In thu publio schools of America tho cliild was •Ming taught to bo its own god. and tho ■oeults were becoming patent. 110 failed Io 6«o liow our teachers were going to leach morality except upon tho basis of the Christian religion.—(" Hear, iioar.") [f tho Stato had undertaken education a.l it had done it had under-

taken moral education, and it was I bound to givo somo coherent system of morals and somo basis ior moral teaching. They had no hesitation, as tho General Assembly of tho Presbyterian Uiurch of New Zealand, in saying that tiat basis must bo tho Christian religion. If-the Stato could not do it, then it was high timo the Church should faco tho question and consider whether it should not coinnionoe a movement and cttabli&h sdt>ools ot their van—(" Hoar, hoar," and applause),—echoole permeated with a religious atmosphere from top to bottom. Ho thought, liowovor, it was possible to

compromise and to maintain our pro'.cnt system of national education, while allowing tho churches opportunity to givo definite religious instruction to our boys and girb. Ho thought tho Ncw South Wales system did tirat. That system meant (1) Goneral Bible lessons by whool teachers from an approved text-book; \i) right of entry for ministers or their accredited representatives to givo epocial religious instruction to the children ol thoir own church and during sohool hours; (5) under a consdonco clause, no child whoso jxirenta objected was to bo compelled to receive- • eitiior general or special religious instruction. At a private conference, at wnich all tho difForent churches exoc-pt tho Baptists, and, of couno, tho Itoman Catholics, had been represented, they had come to a unanimous finding that the main general principles of tho i\cw bouth Wales Act wero poriectly.applicable to the conditions of tnis land. During tho past few months tho leaders ot tho i\lothodist Church Had coma to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in advocating this system. Ho believed thero »'UBorcry possibility now ol practical unujiumty among the Protestluit C-hurdiCH of this land, and if the Assembly would pronounce in lavour of U;o Now South Walce system thoro was

every powibility that ft movement would be set on foot that would sottlo this rjucsion c<nrc and for nil. lie referred briefly to the success of the fj-stem in Queensland. Ho wousd not mako any text-book statutory.—!" Heal , , hoar.") I'iwro was no re€6on why the Government fhould not issuo a number, of them from year to year, lie urged members in tlio subsequent discussion to keep details in tho background. Ho moved:—"l'nat the reiwrt (wliit-h liad already bten submitted to I'roabytErict) bo adopted; that the A«cmbly aiiprovo (ji-ner-jaily ot tho ISow South Wales system; and that tliu committeo bo empowered to

enter into negotiations with representatives of other rcligioas denominations with u view to brinsjiijg the matter ddinitely beI foro tho citiH'jio of this Dominioiu'' I Ho Jwil a lurthur motion to propose:— ' "That tho Aiwnbiy, recogiitviiuj tho urgont necessity lor a change in tli; piosent oducational system with a view to providing for biblical instruction in tho, ~UUUC MlllUUlJ, "igli i>.-I /'iC-l^li'lKM ciioiiid apjH'.itu leu. to cvoperate with representatives of other, religious denominations in order to foster lluCU'Jl ill iJlia i|i.j.-llull u,.U k> UMJu..u puDlic opinion in every pan of tiie lα,irunioii." Dr Gibb seconded tho first motion. Ho j dIU 1101 ut iill nun ..... xvl.tjl - , io. Jw believed that .it tr.o tiuie \i men.xi ! election this would bo one of tho livest 'qttt.vt.iUUa 111 U'O IJO.iillUOll.—("Ill-Hi, hoar," und appkuisc , .) 'l'liwo was a groum.j and prijf(,uiKl dissatisfaction with tnc pi\tent state of matters, and tho Aiigliums and tiio Methodist Churches wore up in arms. Thoy would Hand together rn.l inoist tint l'aj-lia.!i\erii gavo no uncertain K'und. In Woimatc where they had been able to tuko a careful and (Met leferendum on thu question, tlicro -had boon a, n.ajuiity of JU to one in favour ot tho Uiblo iii Kilrools. Tlie were more determined thiui ever tnat tho Woid of God should Im> mil back iuto the fcl'.ocls. They were not going to bo fooled by po'.iticians any longer. They wero a very important section of tho community, and IJIU KIRV, i, i. nl ..,!.-• gwlll iO, di.i, (~..! children,—<ApplfflUso.) They wero going to be iKillK'a iieimei' by human Liil..o.i^.

nor by jwlitician?.—(" near, boar.") 'Iho AsscMibly slwuld einnowor its oonunitteo to put itself in communication with timilur coinnuttees in every centro, and tlioso combined coiiiinittoes arrmißO for u ronfcrciiiw rcproscntativo of all tho churches from which : Uic MiLj.iln:alo >n,ii.u i;lv,iv i thi'ir in>piriii:c-:i.' lie anticipated the J first step at that couferonco would ho to K-curu ii'« MiVicci oi a colli) win «it;oiii to go up and down the country viUihsitt^ anv_ot;o who was not already thrilling .with, energy evi tho eubject. A very considerable, 61H1I of money was already <letiiiitcly in view, and a very good salary «)ul<l bo given to such, an .leenl. TJki Rov. I. Jolly (St. Stephen's, Auclcliinu) !>:ii(l tna! tiio ixophi u, .>civ /.j.;huid wero tiwroirghly di.«ati»lie<l wilJi tlw jirestnt purely sccuiar systom. 'flii New Houlh Wales svttein was more likely to be fatislKctory and thaji any other lie wis awc-rc of. They would inquire greater unity and determination before they could lorco tho politicians to givo thi'in a leiereiiUunj. 'I'lic :Now ooiitli (.ystem would bring about unity more readily than any ether. It ombodied tho principle of definite doctrinal teaching for which tlio great Anglican Church stcod.

Ho eupportcd the systom booauso it wns the most fitting compromise without tho wcrilico of any principle, and because It had been abundantly justified by its practical success. They should eeck to harden tho opinions of tho people into strong Christian convictions that would demand that tliu politicians Kbonirl givo way. T-ho IW. A Miller (EdWlale) said Ihnt tho opponents of the New South Wales system had boon converted to a hnnpy acceptance of it. Its buoccw lion been (unpty poved by exporiencc. Ho had worked tinder it for 20 years in Now South Wales, and there was absolutely no friction between tho ministers and tho echool teachers. It was wry necessary to educate public opinion, and this might lx> cFono through local committees working in conjunction with a central committee. Mr Steven (Pliwant Point) aj-kod if Mr DsVios's committro had consulted Iho tenchen of the Dominion on whom tho bulk of the work would fall? Mr Davies snid they iiad had no opnor.

tiinity of ronjultinjr tho '.oncliere, but ho bolievcd thoy would fee oo'.y too glad to

work undor this scheme here a« they had been in Australia.

•Tho llov. A. Thomson (Pctone) said tho movement had failed for lack of tho machinery to give txprcwion to tho will of tho po'l'lo- Tljey must demand for the people tho right ol a referendum. The Kov. A. T. Thompson (Mastcrton) claimed that ho was representing tho only se-Mion thit hail consistentlv stood 1 for the system tlmt had boen so clomiMitly ureed that moniinj. . He oVprccatetl nny tampering with tho systom, as ithad-becn proved sucoea-ifiil in experience. Mr W. S. FitJgeriild naid ho waa afraid thero was a slight inijmndorjtyriding, especially on tho part of Iho Inst spenker.. The , motion was not to adopt tho Now Sooth Wales system. Somo objection had: been taken to it, and it liaJ been found ■ that tho objectors weio rijiht, These objections hnd been doalt with in the report. Thoy must regard tho smuller churches awl carry them with them, ami if they wero to adopt tlio Now . South Wales system of teachers taking their owii children into separate roomf>—if they wereto confincthc systom to that they would never carry it. — ("Hear, hoar") But they proposed to mako provision by which tlio children of (Fiffcrent denominations might bo Rroupca together for instruction, which in that oaso would l>o purely undenominational. ' In reply to the Rov. A. S. Morrison (Waimate) Mr Dnvies caid that ho had no statistics, but ho know of a number of caios where combined classes from different denominations were held in Australia.

Both tho niolion* proposed by Mr Dayion were, after some littlo further discussion, carried heartily and unanimously. It wns oVcided to leayo over tho appointment of tho Biblo Reading in Schools Committee until this morninjr.