NIGHTCAPS ROYAL COMMISSION

Otago Daily Times, Issue 14020, 28 September 1907, Page 5

NIGHTCAPS ROYAL COMMISSION

BRANCH SECRETARY'S EVIDENCE COMPLETED. ■ MRS CARSON IN THE BOS. (FBOH Ora Sfkcul REPOITBR.) KIVKRTON, September 27. Tho Nigilitops Royal Commission resuraod to-day, when Arthur Richard .Tackson, secretary of tho Nightcaps branch of tho local Miners' Union, guvo further evidence. To the Chairman: Witness found it necessary to brattice off one opening just past tho engine station in order to renoli the bodies of Walsh and Carson. This was all that he did 1o improve the ventilation. The bodies were recovered at a quarter past 7 and 25 minutes past 7. The rescue party consisted of M'Caughan, .las. ..Frame, and witness. Carson's clothing was slightly burned, but there were no burns on tho body. 'I'here were ijo burns on'' Walsh's clothes. Tho clothes Carson wis wearing wore burned, probably as the rosnlt of the flame from his lamp. To Mr Macdonald: Witness did not see Carson's lamp.; On June 7 witness saw Inspector Green at Nightcaps. Mr Green said nothing l to him about any complaints other than of breaches of sections 37 and 38 of the act. Subsequently to the coronei's inquest Mr, Green asked him if ho had any other complaints from the minors, and lie told him tJwt lie had none. To Mr Hanlon: Witness had had nearly 17 years' cxperionco of coal mining, commencing in Nowcastlo (N.S.W.) at the age of 12. Ho remained in Newcastle about five years and then went to Victoria, where lie was engaged in coal mining for 2£ years. After that he ca-tno to Now Zealand, and worked for. a year at Hokonui. From the latter place he went to Nightcaps. and stayed there two years, after which/110 went to Western Australia, and mined there for two years, For two or three years after his return to New Zealand lie was again employed at Nightcap. Latterly ho had kept a store. Witness would be 33 years of age in December next. Ho joined the Oddfellows in Nightcaps somo 14- or 15 months ago, and gave his ago either as 29 or 30. The information he gave then was true to tho best of his knowledge. Witness kept a fruit storo in Western Australia for about 12 months, and was also employed in tho mine. After the coroner's inquiry ho was desirous of having the disaster investigated. Ho promised to sond in a report to the executive, but lie had 110 time to do so. TIIO coroner's inquiry did not throw a sufficient light, on tho matter. At tho coroner's inquest he used tho words: " I only wanted to get the matter ventilated as it has been now." Ho had made no representations to anybody with a view of having tho matter further ventilated, as lie did not intend' to take any steps until he had handed his report in to the executive. He did not know who brought the mailer under the notice of the executive, Tho executive consisted of men who were placed thero by ballot by the various branches. There were, he believed, six persons on the executive. A telegram was sent by witness to the oxooutivo in reference to the disaster. When lie saw in tho newspapers that tho Trades and _ Labour Council was asking for an inquiry into the disaster lie wired for information. He had stated that on the morning of the disaster Lloyd was, inwitnossV opinion, tho worse for liquor. Ho; (Lloyd) was not altogether himself. This was the first time he hail 6ecn him tho worse for liquor underground. ' Ho told Lloyd to get' out of the way so that people, would not see him.. Tho symptoms, with' tho exception of the smell of liquor, were not consistent witji the effect that would bo produced when he was ovcroome by gases in tho mine. Somo of the otilior men who had boen down tho workings wore even worse' as regards weakness in tho legs, but they were not so bloated in. tho face.- Lloyd was very mucli bloated in tho face. This was the firet effect that he showed when ho had been drinking. It did not strike witness as peculiar that he was tlic only man who noticed Lloyd's, condition'in regard to drink. Unless the, manager was below ground when under the. influence of liquor it was not witness's duty to report him. He did not recognise when lie saw Lloyd tho worse for liquor above ground that he might at any time 30 umlorground. Tho lamps carried by Carson and W*feh were bbth.ex : tinguislied when the bodies wore recovered, but f-liey would in tho ordinary course of things have burned out in 12 hours.

To Mr MacaJietcr: There was nothing irregular' in tho Kaitangata executive moving .for a further inquiry witho'iit'l consult-, inj the local branch. Tho executive was only doing its duty. It was free to act apart altogether from the local branch ip matters .appertaining to the welfare of the workers in general. Witness had' never worltod in a mine where there was a ohronio. lire. He had liad experience of a "flare up" tiro in Western Australia. Immediately the alarm was given tho fan was started, and tho men followed the ■smoke back up to the sent of tho fire. They then nut in brattice stoppings and came behind with brick stoppings. Witness had a fair knowledge of tho workings in the Nightcaps mine, and lie agreed with Jardme that the fan should have been started when the men went in. This was a precaution that should have occurred to any capabte man in. oharge at tho time, or to tho person who ordered Carson and Walsh to go into tho mmo 'to put up the brattice.

To tlio Chairman: The starting of tho fan was not the only precaution that an experienced man shoidd have taken before sending Carson arid Walsh into the mine. There was not a fair chancc of recovering the coal lying to tho east and north-«i6t of the main haulage road. This coal might not all bo consumed by the fire, but attempts to get at it would be dangerous. To Mr Hanlon: At the blacksmith's, about 2 p.m. on Friday, June 21, Lloyd and Moncrieff asked .witness to do whatever he could. Lloyd did not speak to him on this mattor at 8.30 a.m. MRS CARSON'S EVIDENCE.

Margarot_ Mitchell Carson stated that she was tho widow of William Short Carson, who lost his life in the Nightcaps mine on tho morning of June 21. Witii the oxccplion of 18 months witness had lived at Nightcaps during the past six years. She had four ohildren. Her husband worked in tho mine. Sho:had known Lloyd about eight years. Ho had occasionally been under the influence of drink when at. her house. Ho was a man who could always take a drink. On Thursday, June 20, Lloyd came to witness's house between 5 and 6 o'clock. / She did not notioo whether he had been drinking. Mr Carson was there. Lloyd brought no drink with him. 1 There was no drink in the house at tho time, but Lloyd sent for some, her husband fetching it. A bottle of whisky was brought in. Lloyd had two or three drinks, and ho asked Mr Carson to havo 6omc of tjio whisky, but the latter replied that ho ilid not want any then, as ho had just had his tea. About 20 minutes to 7, before going out, Mr Careon had a drink. Witness did not havo any. Thero was no one in the house tut Mr Carson, witness, their four children, and Lloyd. Lloyd and Mr Carson left the house about 6.50, in timo to meet the train. Tho drink •her husband had was just before lie loft the liouso with Ltovd. About 8.30 Lloyd returned to llie house. Tho whisky bottle was as the two men had left it-inoro than half full, but she could not say how much lMre. Before lie loft Lloyd had been drinking out of a medium glass, filling up each nip,- of which he took three or four, with milk. Mr Carson had onlv the one nip.

Tho Chairman: You may not know It, but there are 13 ordinary nips in a bottle of wlnskv.

■ Continuing, witness said that when Llovd returned .to the house between 8 and" 9 o dock Lloyd asked for the whisky. He I did not appear as if lie had been drinking i during the time lie had been absent. Mr Uiwn came home a few minutes before ! 10 o clock, and by that time Llovd lmd finished the bottle. Wmess drank none ot the whisky, but she put ono nip of it aside for her husband. Her husband, however, did not drink it. When Mr Carson came m Lloyd was lying on the sofa, and lie asked witness to fetch him another uottle. She refused to do so. Ho appeared to bo intoxicated, going to sleeo on the couch, and not waking until aroused by Jtr Carson. He had no more drink that night. Mr Carson askc<l liyn whafa ho intended to do, and lie 6akl: "Lot mo lid here and have a sleep." Witness and her husband went to bed. They beard Lloyd go out about 10 minutes past 3. Lloyd had 6tayc<l at witness's house like that before. When Lloyd asked her to go for drink slio told him 6he had never been asked by her husband to go, and she would not go for him (Lloyd). Lloyd came back a few minutes after, leaving at 10 minutes past 3. Witness did not see him, but her husband got up. Llovd said that ho had met. Dixon, that tho mino wtw on fire, and that ono of the stoppings had been burned through. He asked Mr Carton to go to the mine, which lie did. Witness next eaiv Lloyd at about half-past 8 that morning near tho blacfamitlf's ejiop, He hjd hat}

a few drinks then. Witness asked whore hor husband was, and Lloyd replied that ho was in the mine, and tliat Duncan lukl been brought out dead. He advised her lo go home, and said he would do all lie could. Witness did not go home, lu:l 6'no did not sco Lloyd again that day. S!« did not see him the next day (Saturday), but met him on the road ori the Sunday. Ho asked her to say nothing about his being at her house on the Thursday night. Mrs Tikey was not at witness's house on the Thursday night; while Lloyd was there and she had no liquor whatever at witness's place.' On the following Saturday Lloyd raid to witness that if she would swear that he (Lloyd) was drunk Dixon would swear that he was sober. When witness told him what ho had drunk on the Thursday night he would hardly believe it. lie did not Temcmber. In her opinion Lloyd was not sober at her house on the Thursday night. The Chairman: Arc you Scotch, Mrs Carson?— Witness: Yes.

Tho Chairman: Well, was he foil'?— Witness: He-was not fur. from it.—(Laughter.) °

Mr Ilanlon: It is not quite fair to me, your Honor, to be taking, this down in a. foreign language. . ihe Chairman: All my colleagues are Scotch.

'lo Mr Ilanlon :_lfrs Joseph Tikey came to witness's houec about, 20 minutes to Bon the evening of Thursday, June 20, and remained [or a few minutes. She went into tho kitchen, but did not sit down. Prior to this witness saw her—about 3. o'clock in the afternoon—at her place. She did not have any refreshment there. When Mrs Tikey was at witness's house the bottle of whisky was in tho- clipboards where it had been since -Mr Carson and Mr Lloyd left. She WtLS quite sure hhat when Lloyd went out her husband accompanied him. Mr Carson had tea a little after 5 o'clock/ Ho had just finished tea, and had walked as far as iiho gate, when he met Mr Lloyd coming in. Mr Ca.rson wns nor 'away 10 minutes fetching tho whisky, and lio opened the bottio under infractions from llr Lloyd. The statement made by Mr Lloyd that witness and her husband and himself each liad two drinks out of the IwttJe was untrue. Neither _ witness nor hor 'husband were total abstainers, and on other occasions sho had had whiskies with her husband ill Lloyd's presence. This was when she was jiot foeling well. Witness never drank boor, and sho never drank whisky unless sho were feeling unwell. At other times sho did not touch it. She declined to say -whether she had seen Mrs Tikey take a {(lass of whisky at any time. She did not see Mrs Tikey take a. glass of whisky on the night of Juno 20. When ho CJillod itho fust time on tho Thursday Lloyd remained at witness's house about au hour. - He lived about half a mile away. It was impossible that alter leaving her houre Lloyd could ihave gone home, had his tea, and been back at the railway station in time to moot tho train. If, it wore shown tliat. ho met the train that night, ajid "that ho had just previously had his tai at his own house, witness must be mistaken about the time. When Lloyd left with her husband ho said he was going to' meet tho train. She did not watch'which way ho went. It was just after his departure to witness put away some of the whisky for her husband. • She did not know for certain that Lloyd would be coming back, but sho had a good idea that lie. would be. She knew very well that if' Lloyd did return ho would consume the cortents of tho bottle, and she kept back .a lititlo for liar husband, who needed it after this work was done. The quantity she took out was one nobbier, and this she put in a glass and placed it in the .oupboard. •Sho was expecting her husband home at any time. Ho had gone to a play, but she did not know that until his , return. It was not the caeo that the whisky \vhioh she put dway was intended lor lierself. Lloyd consumed the balance of the whisky, after his return at 8 o'clock, in aJ»ut an 'hour. Aftor his last drink he lay down, and ho had been lying down about 10 minutes only.before tho return of Mr Carson. Sho knew Mrs Prendcrviilo and Mrs Blondoli, but did not remember speaking to tliom about the bottle of whisky, Sho did not tell eitlior of these ladies <tliat Mrs Tikey was at her house on the Thursday and had whisky there. -Mi's Blondell wits a woman she did not speak to. To Mr Eliott: 'Sho did not hear Lloyd say anything" about gardening f 0 jj US . band when he called on the seooaid occasion. Heir, husband did not say anything about doing garden on tile; following day. • MRS .TIICEY-IN THE WITNESS BOX.

Winifred Tikey stated that she was the wife of Joseph,Tiiuy., lX .ooal : 4miioiv;'at "NightCaps. On Tiiuraday, "Juno 20, she 'called" at ■Mrs Carson's, but was not there .after 4 p.m. She had nothing to drink in her house that day. Lloyd,was not in.the hoiieq while she was -there, but she. saw him going in about five minutes after 5 o'clock! His statement that- sho haxl a drink while she was in Carson's house was quite untrue. Shortly after ■ 7.30 in the evening witness called on Mrs Carson to ask her if. she woro going to the play. She wont inside the house, but did ■ not sit down. Mrs Carson informed her that she could not go to the play. -Witness was not thero more than three minutes. She had nothing to drink, and she saw no whisky. To Mr Hanlon: Witness lived near and was on friendly relations with Mrs Carson. Witness had had a rap with Mrs CVtsou alone, but on Thursday, Juno 20, sho had no drink at all. Mrs Careon mentioned that wins a bottle of whisky in. the •house, which Lloyd had sent, out for, but witness took very little notice of what was said about Iho bottle. Witness was not invited to have a. nip. The reason tihat tho bottle was mentioned at all was that witness saw Lloyd tro into tho house, and when she asked Mrs Carson if she would accompany hoi' to the play, -that lady replied: " I would willingly if Mr Carson wore hero to mind the children, but I do not think he will he. Mr Llovd is on the booze." Mib Careon and witness had no t been drinking whisky together in tho litter's bouse. They might havo taken a nio togotlier when in company, but she did not remember even that. : iNSPncToit Green Recalled.

Edwin Ridley Green, examined by Hie Chairman, deposed that, he was inspector of mines for llio southern district. For seven years past lie hud been in the habit of examining the Nightcaps mine. He held a first-cla<36 oertificato in coal under the Coal Mines Act, also a firet-elass certificate under the Mining Act. The former certilicato ho obtained after examination, but the other was issued to him by virtue of liis appointment as inspector. His experience in mining, dated from 1874, when he was a truckor a-rxl ponv bov at Abbotsford, near Duriedin, He "did that for four years. He then had an interval of three yeans, during which he was in the building trade. In 1883 he returned to the samo mine, and took up a posit-ion as roadsnian and assistant to tho mine-owner and manager (Mr Freeman). He began to study for a. certificate, which lie obtained in 1890, remaining in the Abbotsford mine during the interval. After getting tho certificate lie was appointed nuno manager of tho Abbotsford collieries. 'This position he hold until his appointment as inspector of mines, in November, 1899—an appointment which he had held ever since. lie first became aware, from Mr Ilandyside and Mr Lloyd, of the fact that a fire existed in the Nightcaps mine on March 30, 1903. Ho saw it. himself later on in No. 1 district, and found that it extended from the engine shaft to tlio fan shaft—a distance of under four chains, —and communicating, itself to the surrounding district. The fire broke out on March 28, two days prior to his visit. The area which the liro covered on March' 30 was about an acre. He believed that it liad grown to this dimension in two days from when it broke out. Tho fire, as a fire, broke out on March 28, but tho conditions causing it were present beforo that. Owing to tho place standing in pillar and bord tho (ire rapidly, spread. Witness at that time the report books of the mine manager'and deputies, but he could not say whether they contained entries relating to the fire. He arrived at Nightcaps on April 9, and saw the mine then. He judged the size of the fivo from tho stoppings that had been put in. Ho stayed in the district until April 13, and saw the Tire daily. It was some lime after April 12 before lie saw it again. At the time ho left it the stoppings on the drives and coverings over the shafts were gradually closing up by the attentions of tho gang of men doing the work. The stoppings had been put in hurriedly at first, and were afterwards made double, or in some places treble, and secure. The openings in tho coal seams at the open cast wore being clayed up. The lire was completely sealod oft for eight or ton weeks. To the best of his knowledge, before leaving on April 12 he gave instructions to tho mine manager as to the operations, Mr Lloyd and witness were in close conference all the time as to the best means of recovering the mine without any risk to the men, and how the work was to bo gone about. They decided, after an interval to enable the mine to damp down and to allow water to bo brought in, that large quantities of water would bo necessary, and a dam and water raco were constructed. After that work was completed an opening might be made carefully in order io investigate at one of the bottom jjtopflpgs aji\d at .one o£ tho shafts, if the

mine were then sufficiently cooled down. The mine could be openccT gradually, not more than one or two hours in 24 hours at first. Air was to be taken in with the men, and the smoke and gases carried to the shaft, which had been opened. No instructions were given in writing. He gave the manager instructions to try the air at tho stoppings with safety lamps. lio also gave instructions that, if Lloyd was sucoessful in opening the mine for working, it was to bo tested daily with a safety lamp. The manager and witness tested the stoppings with safety lamps. Ho warned Lloyd purposely that hence'forward ho must occasionally usea safety lamp. When the men went into that portion of the mine in April ho did not expect that that part of the mine would be speedily worked for coal. He did not warn Lloyd that tho miners working for coal must uso safety lamps, iiis reafion being that ha knew of no fire-damp in the mine. Ho would not say that where there was no fire-damp safety lamps were useless. The use of safely lamps was for the discovery of fire-damp or for testing for tiredamp. Fire-damp had never been reported from this mine. He, had never seen it, and there had been no ignition of any kind before the fire. Tho Chairman: Do you say that because fire-damp has never oxisted up to a. certain (late you aro justified in assuming, that it will not in futuro exist?— Witness: I think I am not justified in assuming that. The Chairman: But in your previous answer, have you not assumed that.?— Witness: Yes. in this ease.

The Chairman: Do you wish lo add any explanation ?—-Witness: I do. The Chairman: Give us your explanation.—Witness: There aro a number of -reasons in addition to the fact that firedamp had never been soon there. The mine had been worked with naked lights, and I had myself tested the mine with safety lamps. To the Chairman: After April 12, 1903, witness did not .see tho mine again until June 12 of that year. On April 12 ho made tho following entry in his pocket notebook Nightcaps, April 9, 10. and 11, 1903. Fire had broken out March 28; flames seen coming from engine shaft; remained over Easter and discussed the situation with Mr Lloyd; finally arranged to restore tho old water race, build dam, and overcome fire by means of water." Witness made a big report of tho fire to the Under-secretary for Mines. This was a special report, dealing only with the then conditions at Nightcaps. The oourt adjourned at 5.45 'p.m., and will resume to-morrow at 10 o'clock.