THE ARBITRATION LAWS

Otago Daily Times, Issue 13996, 31 August 1907, Page 5

THE ARBITRATION LAWS

THE PROPOSED AMENDMENTS.

EMPLOYERS' FEDERATION* WAITS ON TIIE MINISTER.

(Per United Pbkss Association.) WELLINGTON, August JO. Members of the Employers' Federation waited upou the Minister of Labour to-day, and placed before him ' the resolutions passed at tho conference.

Referring to tho now Arbitration Bill, Mr Hobbssaid the point they wanted to discuss was the proposed amendment to the act.- The federation in the past had done its best to uphold tho existing act. Full consideration had Ixxsn Riven to the new bill, and lie oould say trie federation was very disappointed with it. The federation did not think the appointment of industrial ■counoils would effect the objects aimed at. The federation's viows were embodied in ithe following resolution:—"This federation, after giving full consideration to tho proposed amendments, is strongly opposed to the inclusion of. either conciliation hoards or industrial councils. It is of opinion that Arbitration Courts should bo the sole courts to deal ■ both with disputes and enforcements _ arising out of tho Arbitration Act. .It is, further, of opinion .that, in order to provide for the settlement of disputes within a reasonable time, a court should bo provided for each island, and that where a. dispute involves trades the products of winch enter into competition throughout the colony the two courts shall sit together and decide 'whether a colonial award should .not be made."

Otherc matters were discussed at length by the deputation.

THE MINISTER'S REPLY,

(Prou oob Own Correspondent.) . WELLINGTON, August 30.. In reply to the deputation from the Employee' Federation to-day, the Minister of Labour dealt, at some length with the new proposals embodied in the Arbitration Act Amendment Bill. Speaking in regard the proposed industrial councils, ho said that one objection to the Conciliation Board in the past had been that men wero found dealing with matters which they knew nothing about. A. great deal.- o»? friction had been oauscd, ami it was a fact that tho party going to the Arbitration Court had everything to. gain and nothing to. lose. To put an end to all this he thought that the true form of conciliation would be to form, industrial councils ot the kind provided for in tho bill. Though the federation dkinot think they would work satisfactorily, it was a strange thing that a board of tho same deecription was tho only one that |iad framed a satisfactory settlement in a recent dispute at Auckland. He had had to look about for a chairman, but lie was successful in getting the Mayor of Auckland to accept the position, and thus thoy were enabled to obtain a satisfactory solution of the" dispute. In Christchurch also Mr Triggs had given general satisfaction t9 both sides as chairman of the Conciliation. Board—("Hear, hear")—-and in Nelson and other places thoy had similar experiences. ■ GIVE IT A TRLVL." He would like, he said, .to.seo his soheme glVon a trial. It had occurred to him at one time that provision might, be put in tho bill appointing chairmcn of the industrial councils'for eaoh district, but he decided to leave tho matter open. " I intend," he said, "to give this council a trial. , With a common-sense chairman I think that in 90 cases out of 100 a,settlement will bo arrived at." He went on to say that the. whole cause of tho trouble in the past had been the delay that had occurred in the hearing of cases. It was to avoid this that lie had decided to have these councils snt up. He recognised that tho.ideal petition-was to have a uniform wage over the whole colony, but he did not sec how. such a thing could be attained. He intended to go on with his proposals, end he hoped the House would put the bill on the Statute Book, and that it would be •given a fair trial.

DISAPPROVAL OF WAGES BOARDS, "I do not,"- 6aid Mr Millar, "approve of th Wages Boards of Australia, or their 6ystem. I'believe the councils that I propose to set up. will bo a great deal bolter than those Wages Boards, and that they will be the means-, of preventing a great deal of friction.' , It- was provided that breaches of awardshould be dealt with by a magistrate, for this reason.: A breach of award, was a matter of fact.; It: was not.'a-matter of law, and if a breach of award ii'ad boon made the sooner- it' was. dealt with the better. If a magistrate was not satisfied a? to a. technicality, and ho would like further advice, he hat) power, to slate a; case to the Arbitration Court." . THE BALLOT PROPOSALS. In regard to the ballot proposals, under the present conditions a ballot had to bo taken of the whole of the members. That was all very well in town's, but there were soine unions, suoli as thoso. df the shearer?, agricultural labourers, coal miners, and seamen, in whioh the' members were scattered all over the district, or perhaps . ° ve !. tbc colony, and it was an absolute impossibility to Over get a. majority of those present at a meeting. Ballot papers were sent out; but tome were never returned, and come only reached the member when lie could n.jit return them to the secretary in time. that every member ot a. union,might bo given the opportunity of voting,, a notice would be sent out acoompanied by a proxy form, so that his vote would oount whether ho was present or not. Then as to another proposal of the department. If a union could never take a dispute from the board to the court Until a majority of the people engaged in the industry decidocl on it, it would never got any case taken to the court, i? however, that it was reasonable that, a majority of tho employers (instead of tho whole of them) should bo sumcionk to tako a, ense to the court, and thus put them on the same plane as the unions. THE PREFERENCE DIFFICULTY. The Minister then dealt with the nroposa.l that non-unionists benefited shall'pay to the funds of the union, and which is intended to meet the,demand for preference to unionists, Tii.it was, ho supposed, tho most important clause in the bill, and the omployors were opposed to it, If they wero going to put. penalties on the men who formed unions, who got the awards, who put the whole machinery of tho act into motion, and who 6aw that tho awards were maintained, then, he said, every man who worked in that industry and received ■tho benefit of that award eliould pay the eamo as the man who paid for it as a member of tho union. The-, payment made by tbo men as unionists mis a premium to .onsuro tho conditions of their labour. Here wbro men who paid nothing, and vet deliberately eame along and took tho full benefit',of the advantages gained' by the unionists. The unionist put tho whole of his capital (his labour) into the union, and tho dividends wero to bo divided equally with those who never paid anything at all. Now there was freedom for the employer to employ whom he liked. Tho mon could join a union or not, and the | union. could receive or rejcct them as it liked, and under tiioso conditions they must acknowledge it was only reasonable that where tho union ensured the conditions those' who took advantage of them should pay tho same. Besides, the court would- only ordor non-unionists to pay when 1 a majority of the workors affected wepj in a union, and, further, the nonunionist who was called unon to pay had a perfect right then and there to join tho | union. DISPOSAL OF UNION FUNDS. The deputation had raised the point that the compulsory system, of contributions would place a largo ; sum of money in tho hands of tho''Union., It was estimated, thoy said, that tho'; total would be about £200,000,-' and the "opinion was expressed ■ tljat. there might be an element of danger Sii, tho establishment of such a large fund. said that this matter would be provided for in an important provision which ho intended to include in the bill, and wliijh did not appear in tho measure as (trotted.' v ; .Ifc related to the funds collected bV-'Unidns. and the reason it did not appear in the -bill was because he wished to send the measure on to the employers, j and -the clause could .'not be drafted hurriedly. Briefly, Mr Millar explained that the funds of a union, after the ordinary working expenses had bean met, would have to !x? devoted to making provision for men out of employment and sick pay, so it would'be seen the men would get a direct benefit from the funds they put' into the union. Mr -Millar also referred to an objeetion that had been raised that under the new j.definition .proposed by tho Factories Bill to be given toi'the term "factory," mines and batteries, ss places where electrical power was generated, would be brought, under the term. He stated that he would have it made clear that tho term would apply only to stations in which power was generated, for sale. Regarding tho half-holiday (or factories, ho said that he'was prepared to consider the question of raising by 1000 to 2000 the limit of the population of towns in which the Saturday -lallislfe for- fastaiiss asssi aegeg-

sarily be observed in UlO oases of combined factories and shop. Ho was not, however, in favour of relieving factories which were not combined with shops, from closing on Saturdays, " The feelingy' he said, "seems to be moro and more in favour of making a Saturday half-holiday compulsory,, and if the question were put to the House now I believe it would ha a very evon thing." Mr Millar also intimated his intention of introducing an amendment to the Workers Compensation Act, but. this, he said, would bo mainly a consolidating measure, and it was not likely to 'load to an increase of premiums. There would also be a slight amendment of the Scaffolding Inspection Act, In reply to the deputation, the Minister said that an opportunity would be afforded in about a fortnight's time for taking evidence before the.Labour Bills Committee in regard to the proposed alterations in the law. «

HON. J. RIGG'S VIEWS. (Feom Our Own Cokbespondent.) WELLINGTON, August 30. A moro favourable view of the proposed changes is taken, by tho Hon. J, Rigg, M.L.C., who is generally known as tho "Fathor of the Independent Political Labour League." "I.have not yofc had time to thoroughly aoiaJyse tho measure," ho said this evening, on being asked for his opinion, '"but from a cursory glanoo I "hould sav that tho pronosed amendments will mean a substantial improvement upon the present law." He approved of the proposed c-stablishmont of industrial councils, but. thought that three members—one representative of eaoh side and 'a chairman —would be quito sufficient. He expressed approval of the proposal to give magistrates power t.o deal U'ith oasr«s of enforcement of awards, but said ho would strongly oppose the clause giving inspewora 'of awards power to issuo under-ratc permits. "I object," ho. said, "to giving any 10s a day inspector tho power to fix a man's wages, Ido not think this power should be given to a poreon of less authority than a magistrate, or the chairman of the council that has made tho award in the trado oencerned."

In respect to the clause making fines imposed on workers recoverable by deductions from wages, Mr Rigg said lie would oppose, tin's unless it was provided that no dodurtion should 1x» made from th*> of any worker in receipt "of loss than £2 a _ week, as provided lor in the present. Wages Attachment Act. "I also think," he. added." that there should 'be a incoific provision against the onforccment of penaltic? under the strikes clause by imprisonment."

On being asked for his opinion regarding the proposed oompulsory contributions to the funds of unione, Mr P»igg said: "This is, of course, an attempt to bring about oompulsory proforenco to unionists by indirect means. I would, however, prefer to see a clause directly providing for preference."

On being informed of tho Minister's statement to tho employors' deputation as to his intention to insert a clause dealing with the disposal of unions' surplus funds, Mr Rigs remarked: "If too many restrictions are imposed on the liberty of unions to dH irith their funds n.s they '-hint it will probably be found that they will relieve themselves of all responsibility under the art by oaneolliflg their registration. . I, believe in evory union having unemployed and sick funds, but I resent any dictation as to the proportion of their funds that thoy 6hn.1l apply to such purposes." Tho employers seem to fear tho establishment of dangerous fighting .funds on tho part of the unions?

Mr Rigg'g -reply to this was prompt and emphatic. "If/ he said, "a union wants a fight-ine fund for any particular purpose it will have no difficulty in raising it." He. -instanced tho oaso of tho Auckland boot-makers' strike many vputs a-sro, when, ho _ said, tho sum of £6000 was raised. This _ was a _ sufficient ovidcncc of tho capacity of unions to -raise money for such a purpose should oirsumstanecs warrant it.

LABOUR IN ARMS. (From Oub Own Correspondent.) WELLINGTON, August 30. Whatever may be tie feeling in other parte of the colony, there oan be no doubt that organised labour hero is utterly stirprised and dissatisfied with the new Arbitration Bill. The Trades Council met last might, and considered the question till nearly midnight, but it- was decided not to say anything for the,present as to the lino of notion to lie taken. -Prom some prominent, members of tte local unions, howevor, I gathered that EOmo very strong language was used. One man whom I met said that some of the provisions in the bill were worthy of Russia.. Another, who is the head of one of the biggest unions, said the proposal to allow employers to deduct fines from ■ men's wages was monstrous. " Don't you make any mistake about it," he said, "Wea.ro not dead, and the Government will hear from us all right, and that vorv soon." Tiiis speaker said ba was particularly dissatisfied with the provision re fines. The Libour peoplo also did- not-like the now hoards. It was not- fair, ho said, to ask three workmen to faoo three of their own employers across the' table in a dispute. Thoro would also be difficulty about the appointment of a chairman.' Ho complained bitterly about the evasion of preference to unionists, and said that in consequenoo of one clause in the bill neoirlv 20 unions would bo minus their secretaries.

During the afternoon 1 called upon Mr W. T. Younp (secretary of the Federated Seamen's Union), but he would say nothing for publicatwi. "That.' he said, "ma's what, wejeeiclod at the meeting last night, and meantime my lips are scaled." 1. was able, however, to father that Mr Young was dissatisfied with the main provisions of tho bill.

Mr David M'Laron, one of the recognised leaders of Labour here, expressed theopinion that eomo features of the [bill were most mischievous. He instanced the power to be given |o employers to deduct, industrial fines from iJie wages of employees. Such a proposal, he-said to a Post reporter, would cause the organised labour of the Old World, which was considered to bo more conservative than labour in the colonies, to endeavour to' kick out of power any Government that would make such a monstrous proposal. Personally lie was strongly opposed to the wTiole element of collecting fines by the impn'sunmeilt of workers or hy the iußidious suggestion of cmploycn to stop the amounts out of wages, for by so doing they were not only affecting tho living of the men directly concerned, but were mortgaging the living of their wives ond families. Surely the moral assent of the' pcoplo of tho colony to such, a pio> posal was impossible, and it must meet with the strongest condemnation of all trade unionists. Ho would sooner leave tho colony than assent to Jiving along such lines. _ The clauec (55) aimed at paid officers of unions—they mu6t be bona fide members. This ms, ho considered, a. pieco <ftf Gilbertian legislation. It was a laughable and ridiculous idea to suggest such a restriction against workers,, whilst the employers' associations _ openly stated that they had paid organisers and secretaries. "As a paid officer of a union," said Mr M'Laren, "I can only treat this proposal witli contempt. I have been a Labour agitator nearly all my life, and will continue 60 whilst there are wrongs to right, despite the opinions of other people. Th» references in,tho bill to changing the character and scopo of boards and tho court ought, he said, to bo weighed with the utmost care by Labour bodies. Tliey were practically of a revolutionary character 60 far US industrial law was concerned, and it remained to be seen whether the provisions were not of a distinctly reactionary character.

VIEWS IN AUCKLAND. (Pes United Press Association.) AUCKLAND, August 50. Opinions of representatives 0 f Labour and Capital were sought to-day conccrning the Arbitration Act Amendment Bill.

Mr David Goldie (president of the Auckland Employers* Association) said he thought that on the whole the amendments would give general satisfaction to the employers. They were great improvements on the present act. The establishment of the industrial councils lie considered to be right. Under the amending act the work of paid agitators would fx? gone. He thought'that a wise coursc to pursue. In future employers would only have to deal with pereons affected with the particular trade. Hitherto the trouble of employers had been not with the men, but with " the men behind tho men." Generally speaking, he felt confident that employers would' approvc.,°' .'^ 0 new act> The'- abolition of the Conciliation Board Mr Goldie considered very desirable. In too many cases in the past agitators paid by the workmen had been sitting as membere of the boards upon the cases they had helped to work up. In Labour circles especially the amending bill was warmly discussed, but there dill not appear to be much opposition to it as a whole —• in fact. it was moro generally approved. The prtsident of tho Auckland Trades and Labour Council (Mr AV. H. Brookes) said he personally did not object to the introduction of the industrial oounoils, for the reason that it would be the means of introducing export Jim. sax gjsst

consideration to the employer, as it a (totted him financially, and to the worker, ae it affected him in minor details of his work. The worker, by being placed in that position, would bo able' to tlioroughly explain to the president of the court the difficulties* under which workers' wore employed, and the employer could say whether the labour produced was sufficient to warrant an increase in wages in the particular industry. Another thing was that the industrial council ivonld avoid the wasting of a vast amount; of rhe time of the court, for the disputes could bo, settled with fewer numbers employed in the case. The permission to appeal to tho Arbitration Court from the finding of the industrial council was, he considered, a good one, and such as would fall in with the views ot the wsjfccrs. Tho amendments we're a great improvement in the existing act.

OPINIONS OF CHRISTCHURCII UNIONISTS. (Per Ukited Peess Association.) CHRISTCHURCH, August 29. Tho provisions of the new bill have naturally caused considerable perturbation in'. local unionist circlcs. Mr J, Thorn (president of tho Canterbury Trades and Labour Counoil), who was seen by a. Press reporter on tho matter, made an official statement on hehalf of the body of unionists represented by the council. lie was careful to explain that his criticisms wero based on tho summary of t ( he bill as published in the evening papers. Ho had not seen a copy of the bill, ajid it miplif be that, his opinions might require modification in tho light _of what appeared in tho full text. With regard to the proposal to abolish tho Board of Conciliation and to substitute therefor an industrial council, Mr Thorn said there wore very many objections to such a change being made. The present Boards of Conciliation, would bo qilito satisfactory, so far as tho unionists were cc-ncernod, if their powers- wero cxtondod. The recommendations of tho board should bo given tho force of awards, subjoct to revision by the Arbitration Court, on appeal; tho recommendations, however, to operate as demands until modified on appeal. One serious objection to the industrial counoil system would bo that it would liavo a harsh effect on tho smaller unions. Such-unions would havO i to nominate three of their best men to sit on the council, and would consequcnt.lv hare to fall back upon men of less ability or experience to represent thorn before the councils. Ho oould say without hesitation that that would very seriously embarrass 50 per ccnt. of tho unions. The unions had never asked for such change, and woidd be quito satisfied with the present Conciliation Boards possessing extended powers. He felt sure that if'tho industrial councils were established there would bo continual appeals from their awards, for they would not have tho woight that tlio awards of a more pcr-ma-nont tribunal, such as tho Conciliation Board would have. " The provision relating to the enforcement of awards through the Magistrate's Court," Mr Thorn continued, "was one which the unions had boon agitating for for soma time past, and he thought it was in consoqucnoo of that agitation that tho clause had been inserted. On tho proposal to make unionism compulsory, Mr Thorn said that such a proposal had been discussed on several occasions at the annual conference of the Trades and Labour Councils, and had always been rejected as being detrimental to tho true interests of the trade union movement. The adoption of such a proposal would moan the elemination of tho present spirit- of unionism, and would have a very bad effect. "It is good," added Mr Thorn, " for a union to have to battle for its members, and the host kind of preference to unionists is that secured by tho vigorous activity of tho unionists themselves. Mr Thorn also pointed out _ that if the proposal were carried' tho union would bo compelled to accept everybody as members, .whether desirable or not, and their present right of saying who should and wlh) should not bo admitted would be taken away. The unions, in fact, would be turned into mere registry offices, and they objected toJ.hat strongly. Mr Thorn spoke Tory strongly on the clause restraining a man from acting as a union officer unless he has been or was engaged in tho industry in connection with which tho union was established. "That clause,". ho said, "seems to liavo •been framed for the purpose of wjuavingup the Farmers' Union. One of tho effects of it would be undoubtedly to impair tho efficiency of a union, for there "were many that depended for their vitality upon their secretaries, who might belong' to other trades, while others such as the Farm Labourers' Union would nevor haro boon formed had it not been for the assistance given by experienced unionists. Tho clause would also operate extremely harshly in another }vay. A man might bo boyootted by employers for the prominent part ho had' taken in the trades union movement. Such a case had, in fact, occurred in_ Cliristchuroh only lately. Several unions might then form themselves into a federation so as to give that man work by appointing him as their permanent seoretary, Tho row clause would absolutely prevent that.

" I believe," said Mr Thorn, in conclusion, " fcbat the whole of the trades unions throughout Now Zealand will bo most violently opposed to the clause. It seems to havo been introduced simply for the purpose of breaking up quite 50 per cent, of the unioiis Ln the colony, and to make it as difficult as possible for men to organise at all, and in every rc6pect it is diametrically opposed to the professed objcct of the Arbitration Aot itself."

VIEWS OF PROMINENT LABOUR MEMBERS. (FBOH OUR OWN f'nRSESPOXDENT.) WELLINGTON, August 30.

When I saw Mr Arnold early bi the day he had not. fully considered the bill, but ho agreed to go through it carofully and give ine his views in the evening. My first question waa about the councils.

Mr Arnold expressed the opinion tliat tho now system would not be an improvement upon t.ho old. The weakness of tho. new idea, lay in tlievfaot that the councils were to bo dissolved immediately their work was accomplished in connection with one disputo. Tho great majority of the . workers considered that if boards of that, kind woro to be oct up it v would bo far better to. havo a standing oouneil of a chairman and two members, who would have power to select exports to asjist them in adjudicating upon particular trades.. Such a board would have somo V°rraa,Mnt responsibility, and the Court of Arbitration would always Iks able to consult it on' doubtful points. In this connection Mr Arnold pointed out that a provision that already exists in the act for tho appointment of special boards seems to havo been overlooked. As far back as 1896 Mr Justioo Williams, in. the bootmakers' dispute set up a. special board of employers and employees, which was to havo power to deal with all questions affecting wages, altering the scale for piecework, and also with tho minimum wage, and tho proportion of apprentices to journeymen. In regard to breaches of awards being dealt with in tho Magistrate's Court, MiArnold said ho thought tho workers would bo vory much opposed to that. It had always been held by the workers that those who first heard a dispute, and became acquainted with tho teohnical points in connection with the trade, were the p'ereons who should deal wiDh any breach of tho award. A magistrate would be an nnonalified person through his not having had tho matter before him previously. The tendency seemed to l>c jcar after .year to bring arbitration more and more into the legal area. They were gradually departing from the first principle of the net—namely, conciliation.

As to employers deducting fines from the men's wages, that was a most ridiculous idea, and one tJiat he was sure neither the employers nor tho workers would tolerate. Tho strained relationship that mist exist as tho result of such a provision would he fatal. A man who tad tad a dispute with his employer, and who was fined in consequence, was to be reminded weekly of what had taken plaoo by his wages being docketed.

Next in importance to this clause was the one whioh waa supposed to deal with preference. The clause compelling non-unionists to contribute towards the funds of a union would be receivod with tho utmost disfavour. Unionists had aways contended that they should not be the 'solo financial •losers through procuring an award. For the money t.hey expended tlie.v should have some compensation, and all thoy had ever asked for was preference of employment where ability was equal. What the Minister was now providing for was compulsory unionism, with the > exception that a large number who contributed should have no voice in the management of the unions. The suggfvtfion made by the Minister to-day to tho ■' employers' _ deputation, that nonunionists' contributions should be used for sick and benefit funds, was a bad one; and ho (Mr Arnold) folt sure that Parliament had, no right to legislate as to what any union or association should do with its funds, besides which it would be thought by a very large number of workers, rjjhtly or MTonjrlj, Hint this was only a provision to prevent their accumulating wealth that would 1 enable/thorn either to p'ay tho fines or to help their members in tho event of the occurrence of a strike.

As to tho provision that, officcre must be members of the unions and' working m the Mangfrj, fey, roßtfissßiaJ, j&. Asaid

thought it an unsatisfactory one. Only tlrat day a deputation from a large Wellington union had waited upon members o! Parliament .asking them to opposo tliis provision. Both the president and secretary of that union expressed their thankfulness that they were not. employed in the particular trade they represented, becausc they felt that if they were they -would bo liable to dismissal. Sir Arnold said he knew, though this was generally denied hv employers, that tho feeling existed throughout, tho whole of the colony. In consequence of 'this feeling many of the secretaries of unions * cre t ?" < ®, a - T P»' d officers. The workers should hold to this privilege with all the power they possessed. In conclusion, -Mr Arnold said there Avoro several very good points in tho bill', such as that to extend the force of agreements which would be very acceptable to tho workinsr classes. As tho hill had to go be.ore the labour Bills Committee, and ovidonco would bo taken, he did not think it wise to enlarge further 011 its merits or demerit.

" What hope" is there of the bill I asked.

" I should think," replied Mr Arnold, there is no hope of its passing in if s present form.