SHOULD NEW ZEALAND FEDERATE?

Otago Daily Times, Issue 11524, 9 September 1899, Page 5

SHOULD NEW ZEALAND FEDERATE?

DISCUSSION AT THE FABIAN ■ . •' SOCIETY.

A meeting of. the Dunedin Fabian Society was held at the Zealandia Chambers, Dowling street, last night. Mr W. Hutchison presided, and .there was a very fair attendance.

Mr A. R. -Barclay, m opening a, discussion oh the question " Should New Zealand Federate?" . outlined the main provision of the Commonwealth Bill, and, coming to the pros and cons of the matter, went on to say:— What has New Zealand to gain or lose by joining- or by remaining isolated? If we join, ,the position, shortly, is this: (1) We liave^at once to give up all our customs revenue, ihe Parliament is to keep not more than quarter ,of it, and hand back the rest. (2) Within, two years there is to be a uniform customs tariff framed for all the colonies for goods coming from abroad. This we will have to 'abide by. The Parliament will make our tariff for us. (3) We shall have entry, free of customs, for our goods to all the Australian colonies which join the federation; while, on the other hand, we must admit free all that they can send us. (4-) We shall have to give up all the powers of . self-government we have already enumerated, and various others, not specially mentioned, and submit to such taxation as the Federal Parliament thinks fit It is argued'that the right to sand our products duty free to the other colonies will be a . great advantage to us. Sir Taylor tells us that -.brie-seventh of. our total export trade is done,with the Australian colonies, and that "we shall.be utterly ruined if'our markets ;:.aro cutfoff for one" year"! If'he means the Australian markets, he is very sadly,wrong, for the simple raason that the bulk.of the Btuff. we send there is produce, and quite disposable elsewhere—at "ilome, or very likely at the Cape, where there seems every prospect of amost promising market for the future. Then the' honourable gentleman went on to argue that our market in New South Wales varied with the amount of the duty levied—the more duty the less 'market,—and he quoted the returns from 1891-to 1894 showing a decrease, each year as the duties increased. lam unable to say whether, it is correct that the duties On our articles were actually increased from year to year during that period, as he says, because I have not been .able in the limited time at my disposal to obtain the necessary information. But I have quite enough to show that Ms argument is entirely unsound. Freetrade. practically came into force in' New South Wales in 1896, ho tells ns,*arid thereafter our export trade rose rapidly. But, unfortunately, he omits to point out-that it had risen from £500,755 in 189.+ 't0'£625,691 in 1895, before the introduction of Freetrade at all! And he also omits to tell us that for the last, ten years the best, export year to New South Wales that we-have had was-1889,"when we.sent them £1,069196 worth; before ever -we had any .Freetradewith that colony! What is. the. truth of this matter ? I have gone to some trotible to prepare a, table showing'the value of each of our main exports to New South Walfi3 and Victoria during the last five years, which I will be happy to show you at any time; and what is the conclusion to be drawn from a study of "the ; facts., and figures? .It . is. this:. That, as. far. as our exports, to. ; these colonies, go they vary, and depend not on any questionl of customs, but mainly, upon . the fat and' the lean years over there—and, for the matter "of that,' here too, because, outside gold, timber, and meat, nearly everything we send them is of the nature of food* supplies. Now, food supplies they.must hay "customs or no customs,—and were there any dearth or scarcity no Parliament, federal or" otherwise, would dare to impose heavy duties on these things—hot since the corn laws wereabolished in England. So that as far as our markets on the other side are concerned, it will not be custom's that will ever keep us out, but simply extra production over there or less here. Now, I will take'three examples just to show you how the demand varies— not with the customs, but with the fact of plenty or scarcity in Sydney and Melbourne. I will give you a table showing the: exports from New Zealand to New South Wales and Victoria for the last five years of butter, oats, and potatoes. I might take half a . dozen others, but it would only weary you: —

Butter. Oats. Potatoes." Xs'ti.W. Vic?KS.W. Vic?Nis.W.' Vie?

. ■•. £ £■£.■■ £: ■ £ ■'£■.. 1894...'.- 455 '.-4,072 40,530 15,045 P.75S 39 1895... 5,051 2,038.53,747 30,101 6,50' 150 1896...27,177 9,58-1 S 1.871 .74,040 8,200 -29 1597...51,0i5 14.430 7S,(>4J 39,207 18,507 1 1598...17.154- '25,829 47,831 10,228 102,874 '20,294 The inference is obvious. What had customs to do with the rise of butter in New South Wales from £5051 in 1895 to £27,177 in. 1896, or'with the-fall in the value of the,saroe product from £51,055 in 1897 to £17,154- in 1898,' while in\ Victoria it rose from. £14,430 in 1897 to £25.829 in 1898? Or take oats. They rose m New South Wales' from. £53,747 in 1895. to' £84.871 in. 1896. and fell from ■'£78,642 to' £47,831 in 1898. In ..Victoria,-in the same. years they rose from £36.191 to £74,040, and fell,from1£39,267 to £10,228 this last year. The potato -figures are'startling. They rose in New South Wales from £18,507 in 1897 to £102,874 in 1898. In Victoria for the same years they rose :in . value from £1 to £20,294. -I believe that anyone taking the. trouble to analyse the. figures and study the matter will be driven to come to the conclusion that the question of customs affects but little our Australian markets. They take our produce beeauso they: cannot well do without it, .and if they could they would very gladly do so.. So that I am inclined.to pay little attention to the alarmists who would try to force federation on. us by the cry,' "If you don't join you will be shut out of the Australian market by a heavy tariff!". Moreover, there is the other side of the question to be looked at. What about our admitting all the Australian goods free? I see from the statistics that already we import such things as boots, clothes,, furniture, upholstery, and various kinds of manufactures from the sister colonies. What is -going to happen to the industries laboriously built up here, in which we are struggling for ever to secure to the worker fair wages, fair hours, and. to the employer fair profits, if we allow ourselves to be swamped from the other side? And this is a reflection that I leave for your consideration. But now for an instant let us consider what this Australian marked really is. ."One-seventh" wo are told it is of ow total trade. Now, there is one matter we are apt to forgot when looking ■ at. the question wholesale in this way. We fail to re--member-that a vast quantity of what we send is, after all, not dutiable at all, and that it really does not greatly matter where we send it. A conspicuous example of this is the gold we send to the otiiet-x side. You will see its importance when I crivo you the figures. The total export trade of tho last fivo years from' New Zealand to New South Wales and Victoria is £5,359,881. and of that siim £2,472.362 worth was gold. :j Not far off one-half of our total export to these colonies, then, was gold. Obviously, then, as far as our other products were concerned, only about one-seventeenth of our- trade really for those five years went to the other side. Suppose, then, by any possibility of heavy tariffs these exports other than gold, (and several of= them I presume would-lie.free any way) were to sink 50 per cant. That would mean that we ■ should lose, these polonies ns .customers .to the extent of one-thirty-fnurth of our total trade—at a high estimate,—and then even we should not want for custom*^ for what we hove to send. If Ihn preservation of a market- in Australia for 1-3'Hh of our products— ■products that we ran sell almost anywhere— is to be the return for the surrender of our independence nml (he priceless boon ofsolfspvernmonl. I, for one, am unhesitatingly oi opinion that we nre beino- asVcd to follow the evil example or Tsnv, :m<l sell our. birthright for a mess of pottngo. It is true that there are two.strong arguments outside tt>e

"market" argument iri favour of federation. They are (1) that probably our colonial debts could be consolidated and the money:: to pay them borrowed at, say, 2£ per cent.; (2) that federation might help to ease our financial burdens by assisting to advance the project of the issue of Sta-te notes. As t<i: the first, of these it would at any rate be long before we could experience much_'benefit, because I believe most of our loans,have long, te:rms to run, and conversion operations of a costly and expensive character would have to be linderfaken. We can borrow ourselves;, now at, £3 per cent., and though the saving of; -i, per cent, would come to a considerable sum,: it is hardly a sufficient price to sell to tho commonwealth an unlimited right of taxation; over ourselves. As ;to the second, I confess. it seems to me the most mighty argument of all, if anything could really be done in 'the.1 dheclion indicated. One of the greatest objections to the.-issue of State notes in Newy Zealand is that possibly the notes might not be accepted outside our own bounds. Now,' if we had any assurance at all that the com-, monwealth would make State notes legal tender through the length and breadth of its territories1 one great objection to the'is'sueof these notes would bo swept away, for .a:; great deal of trade might be done between?: ourselves with them ; and, further more, with: the united commonwealth behind them, they might be accepted by other countries, and a vitally important step taken to relieve lis of the annual drain that presses so heavily ; upon us of interest upon our national loans—* ■ interest that apparently we practically pay to; people for merely guaranteeing.our crediti: But after all. this is merely a bare chance.. We have- not the faintest assurance; that the. Federal Parliament will do anything at ally, in .tho-matter, and until we had something of that kind we cannot, to use the well-known•;' homely phrase "buy a pig in a poke.":;So; far as I can see at present, then, (yre .have little to gain by federation, from the material': point of view. From the point of view of ; humanity and brotherhood and altruism.much indeed, I grant, may be said. It may: bo argued that it is our duty to do what little:, wo can towards that federation of mankind that Tennyson has made familiar'■•; to'/iis. ia his immortal lines:' '■'■*■■■■'','■.-. './-'- ---'Till the war-drum, throbb'dno longer, and tha''>'battle flags were furl'd >' : ~:.':-:-. In the Parliament of man, the Federation, 'of. the World. ' . ' . ■ ■.-'.:---■ '■■'■]" .There the coinmpnsense of most shall hold the . fretful realm, in-awe, . . ■ ;:--;!Ci -: : And the kindly earth .shall, slumber, -lapi-ini; •universal law.. . ■'. :■:-■''■: ■''■?(.'■'-■ .-'•■'- It may be. that .a. .little; .leaven.-,-, leaveneth the whole lump, and that progressive New Zealand would influence for good the legislation and policy of the federation, but it seems to me at present more than,doubtful. I believe that, if anything,; ours isths-. higher destiny, to point the way by. our. example to higher paths in which the common-; wealth may tread. We here, in this fertile ' and favoured land, have exceptional opportunities above the rest of the world. We, the Heirs of all the ages, foremost in the files,of ■ time,. : : -. ." -.- :■ ■. ■ ■"'■■'■■ '--.- ':•

have our destinies placed; lay Providence ia 'Iv, : ; our own hands. .Sick of the evils and cruel-;1' 7' ties and iniquities of the old lands, we iix.this.-'.-..:.':■;■■.-;;■;' country Jiave it in. our power to rightithe ";.;ir; wrongs of ages. We have done some things \;\ ■; to help to found in this land a happier and ;: '; more prosperous people than we see in ■ other.^.--V^ countries—things. that have cost us struggle .-'":-,"'"!>■ and labour and strife enough,—and we hops;- ::,^ before long to-do more. Think you that ? r',;; governed from, a continent with 1200 miles.: : '■;. .^ij^l of sea between us and it, we shall .be aidedV;\;;':Ss or hindered;in.the paith of progress—think yylfi'j!; you that; with- a whole continent .to drag: '■■:■?;:;>s* along with us we shall1 advance more swiftly;-;:" *?$$ or surely "down; the Tinging grooves ;,&l;'...''.v.:>iV'; change?" Are we willing to accept the; Aus-;.! ";i;Ws tralian shipping;laws instead 01 our own.? •When will the Federal Parliament; passaii?;-.*^ Old-age Pensions -Act or a Conciliation -anji'U'---.?^ Arbitration Act, or a Shop- Hours "Act,!.;, or;;.: ::ir^:xn any of these things? And when'l ■ask"vthese;:V'-">^;^ questions I think the argument is ended;; ;Tv'>";;;'j ior one, so far as I can see at present, raisa!*;: .;^ ray voice for freedom,. for liberty, and for ;av'£V-. V liigkor destiny for .;New', Zealand, and our^^frvSj 'Mr W. Hood.said.it appeared to him that:;: t^j;, the tariff question'was about the :smaUes|r .^ iquestion to take into 'consideration in; conn^^;,v N tion with ;the proposal to. .federate.. vHe;; :^^g thought that New; Zealand could not afford to.; i'.^wv 'stand but of the federation. None_ of ; : .thei-.;'^^.& Australasian colonies were in a positiori^to. \ Pf-J.%5. be independent •of the' support that ..they ;g0t:,,;;,.: -,y from any other colony.; We talked about;our;;a;;^: ;;; natural .resources in New Zealand, butevar;; ;iv New Zealand could not «xist as a country in'iVf ,->,>:; dependent of any, other country. We could.;;-.;.:;;: riot develop ons ; of our resources without^ get-; -. -vj ting outside capital "to ; develop it. ■■'Ifvl.tte?-.'..':^;^ seven -colonies 'federated'at the prbsent:June- ; V.j Sg; .tuveI' tile combined debt would be'somethln^fj'*^ like'3oo millions, which would be.the largestvgijgS^ national debt of any nation in. theiworldSs;'; ;^p;^ proportion to population. In ■ additionV;|«fo;;:/■£;; that," it was estimated that there : .was \ ; ;n&mo}-;-'.-! ;V; 130 to : 150' millions borrowed by muaicipalv :;^S;s ties and public: institutions,, makiaga total v.:g.^;.*:v of about.4so millions of indebtedness; ; A-na-^gg;!^ tion with: a bjirclen.- liko:vthaf,>kad somfethirig/*: s-yg£ to look.forward to. ThewKole of the,colpr;-i^^gi nios had gone in for too much borrowing, but*; *:£is one of the main aims, of the federation .'was"<:ix; <"s• to bring about a consolidation of the loans,;X';;-Sji and they could be beiter deajtwith. as a'whole-;^;^ tliaii by each colony 'dealing with, its own loans. :^;r-:^-The constitution of the .Commonwealth ■ Billyh vpV.v; he believed, was the most democratic in exist-;;;>;?,;;;;:;; enee, arid onte great advantage to-be.'gained^v;;^^ by federation, was that, the present Parliaments"'-..■:)."■::{;: would bo '.considerably' reduced, and there ■:?; ;):;>> vrould be far less 'expenditure. incurred:.fin;; ;:i iVj connection with, those ,institutions. In the ; Vt ■:.;-: matter of defence, it would also> be anradr/,; «;,-H vantage for the colonies to federate. New; ~*.;:' Zealand could not defend itself as an isolated ; ;:;-;;;? colony, and it would cost ever so much less .^.:.k? for defence under a Federal Government thau1!:/,^:; it would by. each colony attempting^to makag ?.{j ; ;;;; provision for defence. B was a mistake :to-;gi ;^> suppose that under the federation^the;sepai y;Ax^v rats Spates would haye no leeislatiye^pqwer.^ o:isg| New Zealand could oecome as SnoulißtiolMf-yY-S'^ar it liked, and it could do so more readily tl»4^'£:«<£&; at present, as it would not be burdened,^vithL^^g|J}; the cumbersome legislative machinery thatiit had now. Then all our labour laws could iia^|^fs adopted by the Federal Parliament, andpro-;>tijW bably would be.—(Laughter.) .Was there not Sri'iß a tendency throughout the other colom'es:to imitate our labour laws? Mr Barclay,sge3j|diif v^ to think that if. we federated-riwov^^ou]^." ;cts;| surrender alLour privileges. -He (Mr Hoosf,-:\:-±:*& however, thought federation would ~ue' the ;';; making of TS'ew Zealand.-rr(Applause;)^^i:X ..'■■;'.:';.".fe Mr J. P. Armstrong spoke in support ;of. ; v;;> fednration from the point of view of a Fr.ee- ';;:- trader. He thought it would certainly bean",; r-; ;; advantage to have Freetrade between the ct'jlo.-. -•.■ :'•..; .:•;,;

Sir R. Slater was of opinion 'that if . Hew]Zealand federated our boot arid clothing trade,; and very much of our engineering trade, wouM. go to Australia. . ■':'.'•'. • ;' '':.,--X'-:'-Mr Warren said thsre was one thing ;1i9., thought they were all agreed upon, and' that [2 was the necessity, of a federation of t!ie Eng-lish-speaking races. He was of opinion that the federation, of. these colonies was a; step that would lead up-to that desirable consume mation. He believed the Commonwealth Bill; would eventually be modified, but he did not '■■': think'that the legislation of the future,undefe the federation would have a backward- ten^j dency. On the contrary, he had no doubfei that Australia would before long imitate bur ~ example in the matter of progressive legifc lation. He thought, on the whole, that the advantages to be gained by federation were so' grsat that it would, be worth our while tor. make some little sacrifice in order 'to .fedeJJ rate. '■ - ' . - '.' "■...• .' ■ ■ ..■■■.■- ■-.-•

Mr Mallard and lir.M. Cohen also snokei on the subject, the former in opposition tq federation and the Matter in favour of it. 6 . The debate was then adjourned for a fortnight, it 'being understood thot Mr Cohen. ( would liave something further to say on the '• subject at next meeting. -