BENEVOLENT INSTITUTION.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 10621, 13 October 1896, Page 4

BENEVOLENT INSTITUTION.

A special meeting of tha trustees of the Betievuleut • Institution was held yesterday afternoon, and attended by Messrs C. Haynes (acting-chairman), Colin Allan, W. Brown, H. Gourley, W. Bridgmau, and W. Swan.

I The Acting-Chairjian said the meeting was I _, special one which tae trustees did not anticipate last week, when it was under_tood that they would mnot on Tuesday in order to settle ' their positiou, but an unexpected difficulty bad arisen inasmuch as when be attended it the office on la.t Thursday morning to sign the chf-ques for tbe payment of the accouots which had been passed on the previous day, he wns informed by the secretary that the biuksr wished to see him. The speaker waited on that gentleman who mide certain statement- to him with reference to tha account. He (the acting-chairman) isked him if he would put what be said in writing, and this bad been done in a letter which pretty well explained isself. Ho would read the letter to them :— Bank of New Zealand. Dunediu, B_h October 1808. The Chairman Bencvul.tit T.-mtte., Dunediu. Dear Sir, —With referenc. to my interview with yourself and Mr Clulee, in view of the threatened r_«i(;nation of the trustees, I shall be clad if the cheques which you propose to issue, ove.dry.wiug your account, are held over in the meantime. I make thii request because I understand that your trustees have no legal power to contract an overdraft, and if the present trustees resign new trustees might be appointed who would take exception to sn illegal overdraft having been incurred. It is obvious that the bank's potion iv such circumstances would be a very unsatisfactory one.—Yours faithfully, Alex. . Michie, M*nager. That letter was received by bim about 1 o'clock on Thursday last, and knowing that the Charitable Aid Board was to meet that day he had a copy of the letter sent forward so that it might be before the board at it. meeting. It appeared that the board considered the letter in committee. Under the circumstances the speaker thought ie better also to send the Charitable Aid Board a statem.nt of the t.-ustees' position at the time, and the following letter therefore accompanied the copy of the letter which the trustees had received from the binker3 :—

Sth October 1896. J. Robin, E_a_., chairman Charitable Aid B.ard, Dunedin.

Dear Sir,—Enclosed please find copy of letter received from our bankers which requires serious consideration, and would respectfully draw your attention to the letter of the 3rd inst. referring to the necessity of hnviug the funds of the trustees placed on a proper basis. I desire slso to draw the attention of the board to the fact that the trustees' account with the bank for the half-year ending 30th September has been debited in the sum of £10 13s Odninterest on bank overdraft. Our finances st md this day, after receiving £575 from the board and including liabilities for accounts passed this week—b*nk overdraft £G2§ 13. Id ; and if the balance of ths £1655 asked for is received, there will be a credit balance of about £150 to cover liabilities to end of October of, say, £.00.—Yours truly,

Chas. Haynes, Acting-chairman. He might tell thsna, however, that the accounts which tbe trustees passed last week had not beeu paid, as of course, in faca of the letter from the -Mik, he refused to s,ijjn tbe cheques. Fursher, thi3 was tbe usual week for tbe payment of the rents, but the trustees would sue from a nociee in the passage that the secretary intimated that the rents would be paid on Monday, the 19th. There wero, however, no funds to pay them with at the present time, and consequently the trustees were stuck up. He had a conversation with Mr Robin on the morning :of tie nie>.ting of the board, .—d he gathered, ! that the boa rd would pass the £1655 less the £875 which tbe trustees had received. That would ! have placed the trunt—s' finances in the condition stated iv the letter and he dared say that if the bonrd had done that, as he understood Mr Robia to say it would do, tho trustees would have b: en able to get along; but they were aware from the reports which bad appeared in tee papers tbat the board declined to give tl. f,m anything beyond the proportion of £10,500 Under the exceptional circumstances, he had thought it desirable to cell the trustees together at the earliest moment. To the letter which they sent to the board they had received a reply iv the form of the resolution which had appeared in print. He could not help.sayiug that the trustees devoted a considerable amount of time to the service of the public, and he ventured to ut—e that they were quite ss capable of discharging public duties as the me_bers of tbe Charitable Aid Board were, aud it came with it very bad graca from the latter to charge the trustees virtually with neglect of duty. He thought that was a reflection which should nob bs made upon t-hetn; but ther_ it was, aud it was for the trustees to consider it. He saw a paragraph in tbat mornimt's paper stating tbat a compromise had been effected. He did not know what authority there was for the statement, for he understood that Mr Carew attended at the truttees' office on S-turday morning to get soma figures from the secretary in connection with the commissioners' report, aad ho judged from that that the report had not gone forward on Saturday as it was anticipated it would. The speaker had also had an interview on Saturday v. ith Dr MacGregor, who pointed out truly that the Gov.niment were powerless in the matter, aud that tho decision of the commissioners was final. He thought be might further say that Dr MacGregor prensed the trustees strongly to allow the incident to pass over and to retain their positions, but he (the acting-chairman) bad replied that in the face of the board's decision it was impossible for ttiem to do otherwise than they had intimated in their letter on the 3rd October. He had also had a conversation with Mr Robin as to the difficulty, aud be. had 6ugKOst_d, as a modus vivendi, that if, on the assumption that five trustees would resign, two were first to retire, there would be still a quorum, and as there would b« three vacancies to fill—includiug that caused by Mr Chisboim's resignation—the trustees could then appoint Mr Robin, Mr Miller, and Mr Hazlett. He bad suggested that »s a way of getting over the difficulty. He had seen Mr Hczlejf, and had indicated som.thing to that effect, and he understood thai that gentleman was willing to step into the breach. If those gentlemeu thought the trustees were spending more money thau they ought to, and that the expenditure could be cut down, b/ all means let them have the opportunity of effecting tho reduction, and he was sure that the present trustees, as citizens and ratepsyorn, would ba only too pleased if they devised some means of reducing the expenditure. Mr Bbidoil-H observed that tho Charitable Aid B.<ard'» resolution was virtually a vote of censure ou tho trustees. The _cn_.d-CiiAiß.-A-*: That is the view I take of it. Probably, to take things in order, we ou _ht to consider the position we are in with respect to the accounts we have passed. Mr Swan understood that the banker said the overdraft wait as much xt he oould_see his way clearly to advance at the present time. The Actino-ChairmA-* said that was not exactly the positiou. The tsuateo* rec*ived at last nitretin,. a cheque from ths Charitable Aid Board lor £875, and paid it into tho bank next morning, and that put their account iv a prett/ decent position. ,

' Mr Gou-ley thought if all the security the bank had taken in its career was as good as that the truitces could offer it would have been in a much better position. He regarded it as very ill-advised of Mr Michie to write as he bad done; for he knew the trustees were not personally liable, but that the country was liable. Mr Swan : Independently of tbat, we hold securities of freehold properties. Mr GotfitLEY: Which we have power to sell as trustees. ' , Mr Brown : I understand not. The Acting-Chaihman said he had told the bunker that he need not be in the least alarmed, as the trustees had plenty of money to pay all theic accaunts. Mr Gourlky said it was to him an extraordinary thing, looking at the exposures in banking affairs for the last three or four'months, that tbo manager had meddled with them at all, knowing that their securities were as sound aa ths Bmk of England. Mr Bridgman remarked that tho trustees had contracted a liability which no law, entitled them to do. The Actino-Chairman said it had been suggested to him by two different persons, one of whom was a m»mber of tbe Charitable Aid Board, that he (Mr Haynes) had iuspired the letter from the bank manager, and he would like to say that such a thing had never occurred to his mind.

Mr Brown thought the conclusion the trustees should arrive at was that the action of the acting-chairman should be confirmed. So far as the banker was concerned there might be two different opinions as to what he ought to have done. Tbe position was that tbe trustees had incurred a liability which was not contemplated by the act under which they were running that might involve a personal liability, but he did not think they should be called on to undertake anything of tbat sort, nor should they put themselves1 iv tbe position of asking for an overdr_.it, knowing that they had uo authority to bind the institution. It was not as if they had funds of their own,-aud he did not. think th oy had the freeholds under their own control. He thouijht that if they attempted to sell aoy of their freeholds they would require the consent of the Colonial Secretary, and that was as much as to say that the freeholds ware not under their control. Referring to tbe paragraph in the Daily Times, to which allusion had beeu made, he said it seemed that's compromise had been arrived at between Mr Cnrew and Mr Donald Reid, but as six months of the year bad pissed he - maintained that tbe decision could not be regarded as retrospective. He fanoiod a good deal must have beeu arrived at by the Charitable Aid Board under a mistaken idea of the position. If any hostility j had been shown on either side, it had arisen on [ the part of the board rather than on that Of the | trustee*. He did not think there was anything discourteous in the trustees' letters, or anything that wjis intended to be discourteous ; but he did say that the letters were imperative and that tbey- were intended to be imperative, and if they had not been so he did not think any action would have been taken by the commissioners. He agreed with tbe actingchairman in thinkiug that the resolution which the board had passed was offensive in its tone. It assumed the very question wliich had been remitted to the Colonial Secretary. The Charitable Aid Board and the trustees were bota elected by the same contributing bodies to discharge certsin functions, and he did not think that the board had in the act; any control given to it over the trustees. He combated the assertion made at the meeting of the Charitable Aid Board that tbe board had always paid the trustees' deficit, and said there wa. £258 overdrawn at the bank on tha 31st March last—say that was now £218, and add to it the £1000 that was taken off from the requisition, it simply meant tbat there was over £1200 which the board required the trustees to sweat out of the poor. " Sweat" seemed to be tbe only word to fit the occasion. The trustees had not granted anything which they were not unanimous in granting, and the members of the Charitable Aid Board, who bad sat with them, were eaoh. responsible for every penny that had beeu voted for outdoor relief. He pointed out, moreover, that tbe recommendations from the local bodies for relief in individual cases were invariably for larger sums than would have been voted at that board. For one be distinctly declined lo be a Bweater for the Charitable Aid Board or for any man. If this difficulty were not settled it was, he held, tbe ci-»r duty of the trustoes to do, uot what the board assumed they would do—viz., chuck up the sponge—but to act on the suggestion of the chairman and appoint three of these gentlemen to take their places, and leave them to it. He repeated that there was no' intention on the part of the trustees to be discourteous, but there was every intention to be firm. He would move to tbe effect that the trustees approve of the chairman's action in leaving over the signing of the cheque* for sums that were voted at last meeting until the n;xfc at all events.

Mr Gourley would like to say that there was a good deal of justification for the action of the members of the Charitable Aid Board. They would remembar when their requisition for £11,500 was forwarded to the board. At that time among the members there were three who were also Benevolent Trustees. Two pf these held very prominent positions in society, and there was no doubt that aiembers of the board looked upon these men as very good authorities as to the amouut of money that should bs spent by the trm-tees. These men, members of the trustees, advocated the smaller sum, and pointed out that the trustees were extravagant, and gave too much money away. He had no hesitation in sayiug that it was greatly due to this that the board decided on granting a less sum than the requisition. He had no objection to & man advocating his case from bis own point of view, but since he had been on the board there had always' beieu a number of grumblers, who said, " You are doing wrong. You are spending too much." He had nor, however, ever, heard any of them propose a way out of the difficulty. If they had done so there would have been some justification for their grumbling. As to settling the difficulty by getting the coinmissiocers to forward) their decision, he must say that tbe chairman of the board had as soon as possible asked the Government to reply, and had made every effort to get an answer. The speaker believtd that had it not been for his efforts they would not have got so far towards a decision. The members of the bo'urd were not at all hostile towards them (the trustees), but they felt their correspondence was not as courteous as it might have been. He (Mr Gourley) would he very sorry to see the trustees come to a deadlosk.

Mr Swan said Mr Brown had made a remark to tbe effect that two or three of their number should resign and give an opportunity to the remaining trustees to elect three membsrs from the Charitable Aid Board to take their places. Now he did not agree with that course, but thought they should abide by the case they had put before the commissioners. They had put it very clearly before them, aud should abide by it. As far as he could recol--1 set there had always been an overdraft, co that their position was not any worse in that respect now than it had been in years gone by. He said let them wait till they got a reply from the commissioners.

Tbe Acting-Chairman thought this a very sensible sujg—tiou from one point of view, but last week they bad passed accounts for £514, which were not paid at the present time, and next week there would be a further lot fur £150 or £200, and the board had told them they were not going to provide them with any money. Now, did the trustees propose anything ? Itwas all very well to say, "Let us bang on and wait," but in the event of their not receiving an answer, were they justified in .nesting on Wednesday and passing more accounts ? They would not get anything till next month, and tbey bad this letter from their bankers. He supposed an arraugemeat could be made—m fact the banker bad said to him that tbey could have auy amount they wantad, but they were not going to do thiog-i like that. Mr Bridg.ian thought it would be better to bring the matter to a head, and let the board say they would give the money to carry on with, or let other gentlemen come there and " sweat." it out of the people. The poor should be dealt fairly with, br there should be a workhouse. Most of the gentlemen on the board had been mambers of the trustees at one time or other! but they took very good care when thoy got off tbe trust tbey did not come back again. He had bsen told by some of them tbat they would not come back. His opinion was that the two bodies were not required. He oould not see the use of both. It was said that the trustees were spending too much money, but for his .part he did not know how the people lived on what they got. Auyone who came and looked at tbe books must ss-y that they did not know how the people lived. It was a disgrace to New Zealand to do what the board wanted to do. He seconded Mr Brown's motion.

The Acting-Chairman asked what they should do with the copy of the resolution from the board, aud suggested that it should be received.

Mr Bbowh was of opinion tbat they should not receive it. He was inclined to move that because the resolution was discourteous and aimed at assuming a decision not yet arrived at. He would not, however, move in the matter, so be wished to withhold his feelings iv favour of what the others might feel.

Mr Gourley had no doubt that Uiay would have got the money at the end of the year, no matter what the overdraft might have been, if it had not been for the opinions expressed by these who bad been members of the trustees.

Mr Brown's motion was then carried, and the copy of the resolution of the board having been received, the meeting adjourned till the following day at 2 o'clock.