HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 10598, 16 September 1896, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

• TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15. The House met at 2 30 p.m. CHINSSK IMMIGKATION.

The Hon. Mr SBDDON gave notice of the introduction of the Chinese Immigration Bill. He aaid it had been decided to reserve the Asiatics Restriction Bill for her Majesty's assent, and pending that assent being given it was necessary to inorease the poll tax and take other precautions. THE NEW PCBUC TRUSTEE. The Hon. Mr SBDDON announced to the House th&t Mr J. C. M»rtin, stipendiary magistrate of Wellington, had been appointed Public Trustee to fill the vacancy caused by Mr Wfcrburton having accepted the office of Controller and Auditor-general. He hoped the House would approve of the appointment. It linviiig also become necessary to appoint a superintendent to the Advance! to Ssttlorn OlEck, the Govprnment had decided to appoint Mr M'Growan, Tax Commissioner, to the office. He thought it was advantageous to put this offica under the control of the Land Tax Commissioner, and the Government, he might «ay, hnd only been actuated by a desire to serve the best interests of the colony. j

Captain RUSSELL thought both appointments would meet with tho satisfaction of the House, bn(; he again protested against the Government continually declining to answer questions on tho Order Paper. He held there was no justification whatever for Ministers constantly refusing to reply to questions on the paper. It was ia distinct.violation o£ the Standing Orders. ;

LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES. The Hon. Mr SEDDON moved the jeeond reading of the Government Lo»no to Local Bodies Act Amendment Bill. He paid the bill nan of a technical nature, and was brought in to -widen the scope of dialing legislation. Tha bill provided that the definition of a district included a water supply district, and that a Hpecial rating district should consist of a continuous area with continuous boundaries. It further provided that the whole or part of any lo&n may ba repaid before the expiry of ths lime for which it was raised, and that an additional 5 per cent, may be charged foi default in the payment of interest on loans. Ha hoped the House would pass the second reading. Captain EUSSEfjJj said the bill was purely • one of administration, and required little diacustion. He pointed oui * few objections to . the bill, which he hoped would ba altered, iv Committee. i Mr FRASER was pleased to see the bill [ brought down, but hoped, to see it improved in r Committee. | Mr BUICK saw no reason why the bill ahonld S not apply to river boArds as well an waterworks, i and hoped that an aniendmrat would ba made. | Mr ALLEN pointed oat that the bill did cot | provide for any limit to a loan that might be 1 raised for waterworks, and that should b» ! remedied. He also wished to know what [ would be done with the money repaid by the | local bodies. I Mr DUNCAN urged that county councils bs j included in the definition of dUtriots. i Mr HOGG said fc*. intended to move a new ! olanse providing for a fund for renewing I bridges, and this would reliere the Government ! from a great deal of trouble. i Mr X. MACKENZIE referred to several details in connection with the raising of loans, and hoped the Preusiar would agree to some compromise respecting the number of vote 3 required to be polled in rsisiag a loan. The Hon. Mr SEDDON said^thp question of altering the voting for loans would take considerable time to discuss, and this might endanger the bill in the Council. As to Mr Allcu and the! quest-ion about what became of the mousy ie|j*id by local bodies he said tbe money went back to die account from which it is borrowed, and the Colonial Treasurer would be no better off for it. . The motion was agread to. PUBLIC IiEVENOES BILL. The Hon. Mr SEpDON moved the second rsading of the Public Revenues Act Amendment Bill to meet what was found necessary in working the existing law. The bill was <jt a technical nature and was intended to simplify the keeping of the public accounts as promised in the Financial Statement. He hoped they would have a complete audit system of the whole of the departments, and that the audit would be more coonplota than at present. MrDUTHIHssw no great objeoticn to the bill, but he did object to the power given in clause 3, which extended the annual appropriations for three monius. He also objected to the delay that took place in the production of the public accounts of the colony. No mercantile firm would submit to such delay, and the Home should protest against the practice being continued. Mr BUCHANAN also protested against the clause dealing'with the production of the public account* to the House. It wa3 simply rubbish for the Premier to teU the House that it wns impossible to get the public accounts prepared in less than 30 days, and hs should support any proposal to fine the Treasury officers if fchg accounts were not presented to the House in reasonable time. Dr NEWMAN suggested that the Lands and Railways departments should be put nnder th-5 Auditor-general. It seemed to him monstrous that the House should bB- asked to give an extended time for the audit of the accounts. It was going back to the Dark Ages. Ho Biirongly supported Mr Duthie'g contention about keeping back the public accounts, and said it was absolutely childish of the Government to keep back fclie customs returns as they wore in the habit of doing. Mr ALLEN quite agreed with those who objected to the delay in producing the public ! accounts, and said it wa« ridiculous for the ! colony to have to wait 30 days before the j accounts were published. They were now I within a few weeks of the close of the session, I and the public accounts for the last year were j not yet laid on the table of the House. It ! seemed to him marvellous that the House stsb- | raitted to such treatment from the Ministers, and that the whole country should be content to i be misled in this way. j Captain RUSSELL regretted no msmber I feooi the Government side of the House had ] taken notice of the fact that this bill proposed ■ to postpone the publication of the accounts of j the colony. He pointed out that the accounts i of'the British Empire were published almost ' simultaneously with the close of the financial j ydar, and the (JhanceHiu of 'he Exchequer of a j great Empire like Great Britain had last year brought down his Budget 16 days after the close of the financial year. Why, therefore, should they ba asked in thiß colony to wait for 30 days? He urged that Parliament should meet much earlier, so as to provide that the Financial Statement might be brought down as soon as possible after the end of , the financial year, and he thought it would be more convenient to members themselves than the present system. He expressed surprise that a man so eager for reform as the Premier should not seek to simplify the public accounts, and he held the Housa would do wrong if it consented to postpone the pab'icaf.ion of the accounts. The Hon. Mr SEDDON thought members of the Government side were to be commended for not taking part in the debate, fr-canse they knew this bill was necessary. H« said the bill was wanted in order to comply with the law, as it was impossible to do so at prasent. They were obliged to leava tha books of the Treasury open for U days, and the Audit department would not pass the accounts till all tha vouchers were sent in from various partß of the colony. He supposed the Opposition would blame the Government for the natural configuration of tne cauutry, but nnies3 all thess vouchers for public works, &c, were sent in then: audit would be a sham. As for whit was doaa in ! Great Britain, they did not give audited accounts at all. He had made inquiries and found that the accounts could not be furnished sooner. The motion was agreed to. The House rose at 5 15 p.m

EVENING SITTING}. ( The House resumed at 7.30. . OLD AOB PENSIONS. The Hon. Mr SEODON moved the second reading of the OW Ag» Punsioos Bill to provide for old age pensions. He said there was no bill that be had ever moved in the Housa that he desired to seoju&esed more than the present. It was the bill of tha session and of the present Parliament, and i£ they conld pass a satisfactory bill to. deal with this great question they would have deserved well of their country. He referred to tha proposals of the late Sir Harry Atkinson for dealing with this question, and regretted that the s;<iioine proposed by Sir H. At'rfnsoQ on that occasion bad to ba abandoned. What they hed to solve at present was the practical portion of tbsir great subject, and ha was of opinion they would ba nble to place a satisfactory measuro on the Statute Boot. He hoped to have free sad able criticism on the1 bill quite apart from questions of.party. He raferved to the millions oE money raised for public works, and said that although tha masses had to pay interest an thin money, the people who were more directly benefited were lsrgs landholders. That being tha case, he said, this bill was not unreasonable under the oircamstancßa. This scheme was working satisfactorily in other countries, and he should be prepared to give proof of this. He pointed out that although civil service pensions were discontinued they still gave compensation to civil servants, and it was only re&sonsble they should provide for old age." It might bs argned th*t the time was not opportune for dealing with this question, but every year increased the difficulty, and if it were dealt with that which wrs a curse to tha old country wonid never re&ch New Zealand. Would any member of the House say our prasent laws with respect to charitable aid were satisfactory, ami eveo that system cost the colony no less than £90,000 a year. He was not asking for charity by this bill, but for an annuity for peopla who were entitled to it after 20 years' residence in the colony. This scheme had been tried in Germany in 1883 and worked satisfactorily. Relief was given to two millions of people at an expenditure of £6 200,000. After detailing the 6cheme as worked out in Germany, he said the conditions were different in the colouy, but those who introduced it in Germany would be looked on as benefactors to their country. He held that the proposals in the present bill were consistency itself, and it was provided that all must contribute to the scheme. It was provided in the bill that the amount required for this scheme should eomo from the wealth of the colony, and he held that. w»s a reasonable proposal; but they should not condemn those who wove not so favourably situated as their wealthier neighbours. He would be told thst in ps*siug this bill the State wonld discourage thrift, but it would in nowue da that. How could it be said that bscimje tho State provided pensions for people of 65 years of age it wonld dineourage Op: it would merely enable them to look forward to obtain:ing what they were entitlad to. He might be told the passing of tho bill would injure our friendly societies, but he should be sorry to do that, because our benefit societies hod been of immense benefit to tbe workers. • Thi» subj«ot, however, was too large for friendly societies to grapple wiih, and if the scheme was pawed it wctiid assist those societies and make them stronger. The bill ! wonld also help the local authorities and ratepayers of different districts of tb<; colony. Ths pension* proposed in the bill did not at all savour of charity, and he did not think more than £250,000 a year would be required to carry out the scheme as the bill at present provided. He was asked how the ociestionpf finance- wss r to ; be^mefc. i >u{i n ,KVth«X

bill were passed w»ys writ'ineatts wottra*<tbli be provided. He explained the details of. fchs bill, and said by it a man or wooasn of 65 year! of age who had been 20 years in the colony would be entitled to a pension, exolusive, of coarse, of personal earnings. As regards tha mode of raising taa revenue, it provided for * primage duty of I per cent., whioh would realise £60,000. Than the bill proridod for an increase of the exciw duties, graduated income tax, increase of the graduated land tax, increaia of the death duties and stump duties (by i graduation tax on mortgages), the totali«stal tax, and such othe.c forms of taxation »sthf Government thought fit to propose. Captain RUSSHLL caid Mr Seddon took «ii minutes to explain tlie bill and 54 minutes ol bunkum and twaddle. He (Mr Seddoh) had asked them to consider the bill apart from party consideration!*, but then with the greatest effrontery the Premior had proceeded to atir up angry passions and to raise an angry debate. They were all agreed as to the necessity fot doing their bent to face the ever-growing problem of preventing the destitute pop- fron coming amongst them, but no one imagined this bill was ever racunfc to pass. It wm merelj an electioneering trick, and Mr Seddon himself had told them to as\ their comtitnenU how the money wks to be raised. Did »nr oni imagine the Premier was sincere over the bill J They all kDew be was only talking bunkum, The Premier himeelf did not want to put the billon the Statnte Book : all he wonted to do was to tell the country how he was thwarted by the Opposition from passing this great measure. If this bill were the greatest bill of the session, as the Pcemier told them, how was ib that he allowed three mor.i.hs of the seeeion *p elapse before bringing, ,it down? Ho had told, them this w*a the bill of. the Parliament, but the fact wm humbug hod dominated this bill. The Premier had told them )»rge landholders had benefited from public works and the musses had to pay for them, but the fact was large landholders had persistently opposed borrowing, and it was the Legislative Council which generally put a check to borrowing. This bill was not for to-day ;it was for «ver. But the Premier hod told them it wa» to benefit a few old colonists who had been.the pioneers of the country. He agreed that the time was inopportune for bringing in this bill, «r it was never intended to pass; but he aiimittfd that the sortner they initiated a comprehensive sc.iein* to settle the question ttis better it would be fur the colony. He eulojised benefit societies, and said the success of these societies lay in the fact that they belpsd and assisted themselves. This bill would certainly discourage thrift, bub if they encouraged a spirit of self-reliance, then good might come ont of this bill, which meant nothing aad w»s never intended to pass. They might affirm the principle of old age pensions by agreeing to the second reading of the bill, bat the bill itself should go no further, *s it made no provision foi dealing with the question. Mr G. W. RUSSECIi said Captain Russell* speech was such as tfcay might expect; from the leader of the Conservative party. He condemned the Opposition leader for describing Mr Seddon'a broad - liberal speach as bunkum, twaddle, and hami.ug, and said that after making auch a stirring speech against the bill Captain Russell told them he would vote for the second reading. He strongly supported the bill, and said so far as he knew the workers of the colony were entirely in favour of old age pensions, and not only that bat they were prepared to pay the cost of the scheme. He held, however, that in ordV.r to remove the stigma of charity from the scheme they should provide that every man and woman of 65 yeara of age who had been 20 yeits in the colony ph^uld be entitled as a right to v. pension no matter whether they were worth £1000 or £50. That to his mind was the true principle of old age pensions. Ho congratulated the Premier on having advanced so far in this question as lie had done, but it was only right that the people of the colony should have the opportunity of giving their opinion on it. He agreed with the Premier that the bill wan the bill not only of the sessiao, but of the whole Parliament. The question was a difficult one, but it was not incapable of solution. Mr T. MACKENZIE eaid if Mr O. W. Russell waß so sincere in his admiration of ths bill he should have congratulated C&pt&in Russell od his declaration that be nhonld not oppose the second reading ; but the Opposition leader was at any rate no wobbler, and was consistent in his opinions. Tbe member for Riccarton had deplored that txxntion was heaped on the workers of the colony, when, as a matter of fact, Mr Russell himself had last session followed the Premier in division after division in putting heavy additional duties on the workers of the colony. He quoted several instances in which Mr Russell had voted last session for increasing taxation, snri he hoped they would hear no more from that honourable gentleman about patting taxation on the people. Hh opposed the bill, and laid its whole aim would be to dieconrajte thrift. Dnder the bill hordes of people would coins to the colony and the country wonld ba inundated with paupers. As foi the bill itself, they might give the Premier the second reading, but if a division were called for he should vove against it. Instead of the bill helping people he felt snre it woa'd have a detrimental effect. Mr BARNSHAW imid it was to be greatly regretted that white* the Premier asked the House to consider Ibis question apart from party he should immediately attack tbe Opposition side of the House, and be followed in this respect by the member for Riccarton. H6»:ked who had a better right; to discuss this question than the Conservatives, and pointed out that it was the Conservatives who in every country had taken up the question of old age pensions. It came, therefore, with very bad grace from the Premier to cay Conservatives were not eipcera in this question. As to this bill, if it were carried out on the line* laid down in the measure it would be no beDcfit whatever to the workers, but the reverse. He was a strong believer in old age pensions, but not as proposed by this bill. Ifc should not be put on the Statute Book of the colony till the people had an opportunity of considering it. Mr HOUG V.(i b«a waiting for some argu-iqent-i ui-,aiii7t tic bill, but was surpris£d_ to hear Me B&rnshww u«;oonce old age pensions' en the ground that it would discourage thrift. He (Mr Hogg) denied it would do so, and he was astonished to hoa? such sentiments M had had been ottered coming from Mr Eircahaw, who bad elevated Jiidßelf by the support of tbe worker*. He Etrongly supported the bill,

and said that even if it only passed its Sflcoad reading this session a great advance would have beon made by this Farii&ruent. He maintained tb&t if they couia afford £400,000 a year to educate fcbe children of the colony, they could surely afford more thsn half that sum to maintain ten aged poor. Dr NEWMAN swd the bill was an electioneering dodge and nothing else. BayDnd the title of the bill tfcere was nothing left. Ha was prepared to snpport the bill, but ft must be altered considerably in Committee, and it was • perfectly plain that the Premier had Bhirked the who!a question. The chief stumbling-block to a bill of this kind was finance, and unless 7r«ys and means were provided by the schema it would be a sham. The Premier was simply piaTinjj to the galleries in introducing this bill, which was not worth the piper it was printed on. They all recognised the necessity of a pensions genome for old people, but it mutli he a well-defined scheme, and funds should ba provided for it. He advocated the appointment of a Royal Commission; including the Registrar-general, to ascertain the list of persons who would be likely to come under the bill. The Premier had altogether deluded the people with the bill, and people who expected to be benefited by it would receive no benefit at ftU. Mr COLLINS said' it appeared to him thai every member who spoka on the bill agreed to its principle. He agreed with the Premier that this was the most important bill that had coma before Parliament, but he thought it might ha referred to a committee to consider it fully. The question was surrounded by gre*t difficulties, and it was necessary thßy should endeavour to grapple with those difiicalties. They' were told the Government were simply humbugging the House over this niat-er, bat he thought that he could not find words etronp enough to condemn such conduot, as it was cruelty to old people to postpone the matter any longer. He did not believe for a moment that this bill would be fatal to the thriit of the colony. The Government would eicn the gratitude qf.the country in introducing it. Mr O'KBGAN «»id the bill displayed want of courage,, and although there were few in the House who would refiiso to snpport the second reading there were very few who could approve the detail* of the bill, which contained no well" defiued schema at all. Thera were only fciw proposals in the bill which met .with hie approval—viz., the increase in the graduated land tnxaud the increaw of the death duties by graduation. He should support no system of old age pensions tli&t was not provided for chiefly by an increase in the land tax. Mr SA.UNDER3 would vote for the second reading of (ihe bill, and he hoped every member of the House wsu!d do so. Not that ha thought the bill would do any good. He egreed with those,, who regarded tha bill as an electioneering fabric. me scheme proposed in the bill w»s entirely ,btyond Hie means of tie country, especially « the Premier had told them a week or two ago that» million of mousy was required to_ carry on the Government. The bill was perfectly practicable, and, that being so, everymembar of the House should support it and leave tnfl Premier to fiud the money, which wj«! d P™ him in a very tight place. .If £200,000 of.ttj million loan wero sat apirS for Und ana industrial fsnns they could employ m»ny_ot tho unemployed and hornet would ba provided for the aged poor, which would bs a better plan than that proposed by the bill. , '„ The Hon. Mr SEDDON cbaractenied Mr Sannders'a speech a» electione?ring,frnd «»ia it Every one with a garden should grow one afi Nimmo and Blaib's Jap»nesß "Crimsou Gambler" Roses. It is the wonder o£ tM

he dared he would vote against the bill. Mr Sannders'i proposal would be far worse tb»n this bill,'tis it would iutroduoetha workhouse System of the old country. He deprecated the Educktiou question being brought into the bill, and said old men and women who had made the country had more demands ou them than the rising generation. He replied at length tq Captain Rupsell's speech, and denied that be waa personal in introducing the bill. He defended Mr G. W. Russell's Bpeech on the bill, and deprecated the attack made on the mernjjer for Riccarton by Mr T. Mackenzie. He said he had no opportunity of bringing the bilj down before, and he was prepared to put it through all stages this week, and stand or fall b? it.'

The motion for the' second reading was agreed to.

The House roee at 1.20 a.m,