DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 10360, 15 May 1895, Page 4

DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY.

A pro re nata meeting of the Dunedin Presbytery was held in First Church yesterday morning, and attended by the Revs. J. M. Fraser (moderator pro tern.), R. R. M. Sutherland,' J. M. M'Kerrow, I. Jolly, A. Dou, I. K. M'lntyre, D. Dutton, A. M. Finlayson, ministers; Messrs D. Law, A. Cameron, W. Hutton, J. G. Sawell, D. A. M'Nicoll, and F. Marshall, elders. Tbe circular calling the meet'Dg, which was read, stated that the meeting was called to consider an application from Port Chalmers for moderation in a call. The Rev. Mr Finlayson, as moderator of the Port Chalmers session, introduced Captain Thomson and Mr C. R. Bossence, commissioners from the congregation, requesting moderation in a call. The minutes of a congregational meeting held on the 6th May were read by Captain Thomson, showing that the following business was done :— "Proposed : ' That this meeting agree to give a unanimous call to the minister who shall have the majority of votes.' As an amendment it wss moved : ' That this matter be de'ayed until, next meeting.' The amendment was lost and the motion carried by a lar^e majarity. Proposed : ' That this congregation do now take steps in the regular order of procedure to call a pastor to fill the vacancy in tbis church.' Carried unanimously. Proposed : ' That a call bo given to the Rev. John , Kilpatrick, of Warepa, to the pastoral charge of this congregation.' Also proposed: ' That a call be given to the Rev. John Anderson Gardiner, of the Bluff, to' the-pastoral charge of this congregation.' It was also moved : ' That application be made to the presbytery to grant moderation in a call to a pastor for this church.' The last motion was lost, and on a vote being taken 96 members and 84 adherents voted for the Rev. Mr Gardiner, and 76 members aud 9 adherents for the Rev. Mr Kilpatrick. Mr Neil Murray dissented, and Mr David Law adhered to the dissent." • Captain Thomson said a very large majority of the congregation had gone in the one direction, and for that reason he was prepared to follow in the same way, and to support the name wh-ch had received the largest number of votes. He felt it was his duty to do tbis, and while they had all made it a matter of prayer, he felt sure that though their prayers' might not have been answered as they asked, they were answered in God's way. He (the speaker) wai willing to bow to the decision of the majority of the congregation. Mr Bossence referred to the desire which had long existed in the church to secure the services of Mr Gardiner. ,TW_ and a-half years ago he preached with much acceptance, drawing to the church inaiiy who had not previously attended' any place of worship. His influence on the youth of the place was shown by the remark of a police officer, who said that J, he had not seen any boys about the streets, for two Sunday nights, and when at last Mc Gardiner left the place he was presented with an address and a purse of sovereigns, which showed the estimation in which he was held by the people. As to the recent meeting in the church, it was the largest he had seen in the building on a week day. They had organised, as people did who supported a good cause,and those who supported | Mr Kilpatrick had their motions all prepared, while those who favoured Mr Gardiner were in the same position.—(Mr N. Murray: " Only 15 | minutes before the meeting.") The evening ! before the meeting Mr Murray weDt to an elder and told hira that he bad been deputed by a certain member to secoud Mr Kilpatrick's nomination, and yet Mr Murray vow said '»15 minutes betore the meeting." On looking into jthe flgures be found that 260 were accounted j for at the meeting, and he was told that there were 21 who voted" against the motion that the minority should fall ia with the majority. The meeting committed themselves to the majority, and he could not see how they could do otherwise without stultifying themselves, and he wes confident they were uob likaly to do that. He had heard since the meeting that some members of the church had remarked that although they did not get the man they wanted, they would be loyal to tbe man who was coming. Mr Gardiner's preaching had been conducive to the benefit of the church-and the good of the place, and 6ome respectable and reputable people who went to no church had said to himthey were pleased Mr Gardiner was coming, wbile one man said: ■" It was he that brought me to church, and I thank God for it." The Clerk (the Rev. Mr Finlayson) said he had received a petition from some of the elders as follows:— '■■'..:/ To' the Moderator and Membsrs of the Presbytery of Danedin. Reverend Sirs, —We, the undersigned, members of the Kirk Session of tbe Presbyterian* Church of Port Chalmers, for the glory of God and the good of our church,, do prayerfully and humbly approach you by petition, requesting that you will take into serious consideration the following matters of which we here complain, and give such declaration of your judgment in respect to same asmay tend-to promote the glory of God and the good of our church :—•'" First, we direct your attention to the minutes of a congregational meeting held in Our church on Monday, May 6, 1595, from which you will see bow that meeting was, permittt_d to pass sofar beyond it 3 legitimate purpose, which was (as per announcement froni the pulpit) "to ascertain whether the congregation was prepared to call a, pastor" ; that it did further, in the face of remonstrance against the proceeding., proceed to determine who tbat pastor is to be, and to ask your court to grant moderation in a call to this person. We therefore protest against tj»is finding as being contrary to the spirit and letter of the Order of Procedure as laid down fpr our guidance in the book called " The -Practice of the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland " ; aud further, because we, feeling fully assured that tbat book did not warrant this meeting dealing, with any part of the business which in the Order of Procedure takes place when under moderation, we were not prepared as we would have been to take part in the election of a pastor. We likewise do further complain that those present were permitted to commit themselves to any pastor to take charge of our souls without being duly solemnised bysermon, and the sense of tbe responsibility of such action being deepened in their conscience bythe terms of the form of call being read to them before votiDg. Feeling assured that you will give these matters that attention their importance calls for. —We arc, &c, David Law, Neil Murray, Peter, sutherland, andrew davidson, wllliam menel.aus, wllltam stewart, d. m'callum, George Crawford. * The Rev. Mr Sutherland asked how many ciders there were. Captain Thomson: Thirteen. It wa. decided to hear the petitioners, tho majority of whom were present. Mr Law s tid he took exception to the meeting because the congregation were allowed to understand that they were there to vote for a minister. What he and a good many more understood was that they were to go to the presbytery for an open call. A great many en Mr Kilpatrick's side were not ac the meeting, and consequently that gentleman's supporters were at a serious disadvantage when the voting, came on. He protested against the matter being brought to a poii_t that night. In his locality there were three members who would have been at the church if thsy had known the vote was to be taken, and others at, Sawyers' Bay would also hwe been present, so than the voting did not represent the feeling of the congregation. The meeting was ths rowdiest he was ever at in the chutcn in bis life. He was sorry to see it. It wa? so rowdy that some of the ladies had to go oat; tbey could not stand the noise. There were at the meeting people belonging to other churches, so that he did not know how tbe 21 who voted against the first motion had been counted. As far as the petition was concerned, he would like to say that the eight elders who sigued it were directly opposed to Mr Gardiner. Captain Thomson, another elder, moved that Mr Kilpatrick should* be their minister; Mr Reid, another member of the session, said nothing ; and Mr Tait and Mr Bossence were the only two wbo were in favour of Mr Gardiner. [The thirteenth member of the session is absent from the colony.] For himself, he did net see bow he could possibly s.t under Mr Gardiner's mi-istry, and there wero others who, if Mr Gardiner went to the church, would have to resign thoir connection witb it. If the vole were taken again he believed it woold be in tho opposite direction. Mr Murray, in a, lengthy speech, said he believed tbat if they bad auother meeting to test the numbers the result would come out the other way. Th.y were satisfied that a wrong result bad been obtained, and if the presbytery could see their way to give them an opportunity of testing tho matter on a level and fair footing he was hopeful that the result would be different, and a calamity averted such as they had noi. had in their church in ail thw previous experience. If, after this, they should prove to be still in the minority, they did not wish it to be understood that all opposition would be at an end. Oh the. contrary, it was contemplated by some to resi.it at the nest stage. The Rev. Mr Sut-_j__iilanb *. There is no need to go into that jint now. Mr Murray concluded by saying he hoped the presbytery would find a means whereby tha matter could be settled without breakitsg up the church, because that issue rested on this question. Messrs Crawford, Sutherland, aad Stewart also spoke. Mr Tait, member of session, was given permission to speak. Hs would like to pub it to Mr Law and bis friends wnet-her they did not understand what the meeting was called for. He could lead evidence to show tha . they were perfectly well aware of the object of (ho meeting. For instance, these gentlemen, at the meeting of the session, before tlie congregational meeting was held, pointed out that it was absolutely necei-sary tbat the communion roll should be revised and made up to date in order to be available for the meeting. They distinctly understood tben what the object of the meeting was, and Mr Bossence struck the nail ou the head when he said that thssa gentlemen had arranged, not a day before but five or six days before, who were to propose and second Mr Kilpatrick at that meeting. Now *_ey came ond said it was a catch vote. It was unfair of t hem. Legally speaking, he thought they had

no standing at the presbytery's meeting, as the congregation hsd not had an opportunity.of appointing commis-iioners to deal with the j matter. As far as be knew, very frw of tbe congregation knew anything at all about Mr Law and the other gentlemen who were with him bein? at the presbytery. At anyrate, he contesdcd that it was clearly understood that the congregation were to settle the matter, as had been done at Knox Church and the North Dunedin Church recently, and it was only when these gentlemen found that they were in a minority that they hoped by gaining time to get a majority on their sido. It was said by some of them at the first meeting of the session to consider the matter that if they did not get their own way it would result in the breaking up of the church. ', The Rev. Mr Sutherland asked'what was the membership of the church. Captain Thomson : Two hundred and sixtyeight. Mr Law. remarked that the communion roll had not been revised for years, and now nobody knew how it was. It was decided to hear the commissioners in reply. '_ . Captain Thonison said it was well known — there was no denying the fact—that the meeting on the Gth was to be a trial of strength between the supporters of the two candidates. If they were to begin de novo they would not have a larger meeting than'" they had. Ec believed Mr Kilpatrick would have nothing to do with them now, so that Mr Gardiner's support would be larger^ than ever.—("Question.'-') If the meeting was in anyway unpleasant, Mr Murray was the cause of it all. He kept the floor nearly all the evening, and led things into a most confused state, but J whether purposely or not he (the speaker) would not say. As to the vote, it, ,was..''taken in an orderly way, and there could be no mistake about the. nnmbsrs. *■'..,.'.. Mr, Bossence endorsed all that Ciptain Thomson had said. It had been stated that there were, a large number of members absent, and he would like to say in reply tc), that that there were 268 members oa the church roll. Thirty of these were absentees, which,left 238. The voting showed there were 172 present, and how, then, could, it be said the numb.r was inconsiderable ? As Captain Thomsou had said, everybody knew about the meeting, and he was astounded to he'ar,Mr Murray say that people did not know about it. Although eight elders signed the petition that did not mean that a large number of the congregation were of the same mind. The elders, he held, did not represent the people, which was J proved by the vote that was taken. The Clerk (the Rev. Mr Finlayson) said the: presbytery had now heard the two sides of the question, and he wished .to call attention to some statements in the petition which he considered rather strong. "In the face of remonstrance against the proceedings the meeting proceeded to determine who the pastor is to be." He thought hemade it clear at the meeting that although the meeting was an important one it'was not the final meeting,: but a preliminary one. to: find out the.mind of the congregation. " Those present were permitted t-J> commit themselves to any pastor.", He thought that was too strong. Although the meeting was no doubt in that direction, yet that did not exclude any harhe-from being brought belore the presbjtery when the presbytery met to moderate in a call. J All the meeting did was to.express their mind at the time, and they did express their mind that Mr Gardiner should be called. They did that most distinctly, but ■that did not exclude any further action being taken by those of a different mind, notwithstanding the motion carried at the beginning of the meeting. There was a very keen feeling in Port Chalmers over the matter, and those who were opposed to the resolution that, was carried had a feeling that they were being forced into a position that they were unprepared to go into ; but he did not think it; would do for the presbytery to adopt the petition or to carry, out what the petition meant.. It would mean that the presbjtery would have to obliterate t£e meeting and let the congregation commence at the beginning again. That would j be going over tbe same ground for no purpose, j He would like to say, too, that, although there was a certain amount of misunderstanding in the meeting it was not rowdy. There was, no doubt, very'lively feeling, and some'very lively expressions of opinion were uttered, but stiU the meeting wasJ not rowdy. -..".;The■ Keiv.:Mr Sothebland moved—*' That the presbjtery grant moderation in an open call, and meet for this purpose in Port Chalmers Church on Tuesday, 28th inst., 3t halfpast 7 jj m., the moderator (the Rev. D. Borrie) to preside and preach." At that meeting the full strength of 'Mr Gardiner's voters and the supporters of any other name that might be proposed could be there, and the matter finally and,, he hoped, amicably settled.' It would serve no good purpose to go over the same ground again. He trusted the question would be settled peacefully. "Blessed is the peacemaker"; and he hoped that blessing would rest in abundance npon the heads of all in this chuich. '-** The Rev. Mr Dotton secbnded rthe motion, saying that, both, sides had been fairly put before the presbytery. ' Ih answer to the Moderator, Mr Murray said.the object of the petitioners was simply to lay before the presbytery the facts the petition contained. .-'. "'■'." Thembtionwaspub aihd carried unanimously.