GENERAL ASSEMBLY

Otago Daily Times, Issue 8861, 19 July 1890, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. FRIDAY, JULY 18.

The Council met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICE OF MOTION.

The Hon. E. C. J. STEVENS gave notice that he would move that a select committee be appointed to consider the best practical system to be adopted with regard to the management of industrial schools.

THE DEATH OF MB E. TUENBUIX.

The Hod. Sir F. WHITAKER said that two years ago the Council had adjourned on account of tho death of the late Mr Pearson, and now they learned of the death of Mr Turnbull, whom they all bo well knew. The deceased gentleman, though an uuassutning man, was one who had in his legislative duties gained the esteem of all parties of either branch of the Legislature, and although owing to his affliction he had not taken a very great amount of work upon himself during the past two years, still whenever he was placed on a committee or in whatever capacity he worked he invariably did his duty, and his best efforts were directed to accomplishing the public weal. He would therefore, as a token of esteem to the memory of the deceased gentleman, move that the Council do bow adjourn. The Hod. P. BUCKLEY seconded the motion, and speaking as an old friend of tho late Mr Turnbull he hoped the motion would be adopted unanimously. He felt assured that every member of the Council would feel deep sorrow at the death of ono whom they all had known so well and bad esteemed so highly, and he trusted that the Council would, in addition to agreeing to adjourn, express their sympathy with the bereaved widow and family in their affliction. The motion was agreed to. The Council at 2.40 adjourned till Tuesday next. HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES. FRIDAY, JULY 18. The House met at 2.30 p.m. EXPKESSION OP THANKS. The Hon. Mr L ARNACH, by permission of the House, read a letter from Miss Macandrew, daughter of the late James Macandrew, member for Fort Chalmers, expressing the thanks of herself and sisters for the allowance granted them by the House last session. The letter also thanked Mr Larnach for his kindness in being instrumental in obtaining the grant.—lt was ordered to lie on the table. REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. Mr WARD asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will recommend the Railway Commissioners to reduce the cost^of conveying manures, lime, ploughs, and other articles used by farmers in tilling the land to the lowest possible rate. The Hon. Q. F. RICHARDSON said the commissioners were now considering whether they would be able to arrange for those articles to be carried during the slack season at reduced rate's. Mr BARRON asked the Government if the Native department has been amalgamated with that of the Colonial Secretary, as promised in the Financial Statement of 1888. The Hon. B. MITCHELSON said the Government had not seen their way to carry out this promise, but the expenditure on the_ Native department proper had been considerably reduced. The Government thought that the Native Lands Court might be amalgamated with that of Justice, by which a farther saving might ba effected. Replying to Sir G. Grey, The Hon. Captain RUSSELL said ho hoped to bring up the federation resolutions on Tuosdav for the approval of the House. Mr WILSON asked the Government if they intended to take any steps to enable the property tax commissioners to call upon banks and companies trading in New Zealand to furnish returns (for property tax purposes only) showing each depositor and the amount of his or her deposit held by such b&nk or company. The Hon. E. MITCHELSON said the Government sympathised with this petition, but the Colonial Treasurer had not yet seen his way to effect the object in view, but the matter would not ba lost sight of. Mr WILSON asked the Government if there is no means (other than by act) to enable them to call upon banks to publish a list of unclaimed deposits, and, if not, will they bring in a bill to effect this purpose. Tbe Hon. B. MITCHELSON said the question was a complicated one, but inquiries would be made into it. THE ADVANCE TO THE TABANAKI HAEBOUB BOABD. Replying to Mr Seddon, Mr MACARTHUR said he had thought good tasto and propriety would prevent Mr Seddon asking whether the Public Accounts Committee bad sanctioned the payment of interest due on the Taranaki Harbour Board debentures, as the whole question was now before a committee appointed to investigate Mr Hutchison's charges. Mr SEEDON moved the adjournment of the House. He declined to be dictated to by Mr Macarthuv on matters of good taste, and he considered that if the Public Accounts Committee, of which Mr Kacarthur was chairman, had acted as reported, they did a wrong to the House and to the country. If they had tendered such edvioe to tho Premier as to the payment of this interest, they placed the Premier in a false position. Ho felt sura that no other committee had acted before in this manner, and he protested } < against such a discourteous reply being given to | I I his question. 1i

Mr KERF, thought n breach of trust all round had been committed, and it was not in the power of the Premier or committee to aofc as they were reported to have dono.

After further discussion, Mr SAMUEL, as a'member of the Public Acoounts Committee, said the committee Were informed by the Calonial Treasure)! that a conversion loan Was about to ba raised, and ho put it to them that the default of ft local body might cost tho colony very' dear. The Treasurer expressed no opinion one way or tho other, but asked the advice of the committee on tho matter. It was carefully considered without reference to party. Messrs Ballance and Larnach were both present and gave their advioe. Tho result was that one member moved tllat it' was not advisable to take any steps. Against this was moved, as nn amendment, ths " previous question," it being distinctly understood that if the " previous question " wore carried, that would mean an affirmation in answer to the question as to whether this interest should be paid. Thß "previous question " wa3 moved by Mr Larnach, seconded by Mr Ballance, and carried by a large majority of the committee, and he was glad to find that those hon. gentlemen had risen superior to party on-that occasion. The question of security was not so much considered as whether or not the colony would suffer great loss in raising tho loan if the harbour board were allowed to be in default.

Sir JOHN HALL thought there was a time for everything, and as this question was one that was referred to another committee for investigation he regretted that it had been brought up. He also regretted that Mr Samuel should have thought it his duty to go into the matter at present as he had necessarily spoken from memory, and in some respects his memory was at fault. He considered Mr Macarthar had taken the proper course in refusing to give any ihforma-. tionat that stage. ...-■■

Mr MOSS also regretted that Mr Samuel had given an explanation, as be was one who opposed the decision of the committee at the time, and ho felt bound to say so now. He did not feel inclined to take his share of the responsibility for that act, as he was altogether opposed to it.

The Hon. Mrß ALL ANCE said Mr Samueihad only given a partial account of the proceedings of the committee. He did not oxempt from responsibility any member of that committee, as he understood every member of it had agreed with what was done. The committee, he asserted, was not a creature of the Colonial Treasurer. They were convinced that the credit of the colony would suffer if this advance was not made, and he (Mr Ballance) came to the conclusion very reluctantly that, in order to save the credit of the colony, this money ahould be advanced on security. There was no doubb, although they might have acted wrongly, they had done so in the interests of the colony. The Hon. E. MITCHBLSON thanked Mr Ballance for his statement, as it tallied with what the Premier had informed him as to .the facts of the case. The Premier had until the other day believed the advance was legally made. He was fully convinced that the land fund could be stopped for the payment. Half: the land fund had been stopped, but as it had been done so illegally it would have to be refunded by the Treasury. The only question was whether the advance could not be legalised. Mr W. P. REEVES (Sb. Albans) asked whether the Government took legal advice before they forced money on a local body which, according to Mr Samuel, did not ask for it. ■ ■ -

The Hon. E. MITCHELSON said the Premier had acted in good faith. When the question came before the House, for the House would have to find the money, he would be prepared to give more extended information on it.

The Hon. Mr LARNAOH, in reply to Mr Scobie Mackenzie, said the " previous [question" was moved so as to have the effect that such a proposition usually had.

Mr PERCEVAL corroborated the statement, and said the committee refused to take any responsibility other than agreeing to the " previous question." .

The motion for adjournment was lost, QUESTIONS BESOMED.

Replying to Mr Scobie Mackenzie,

The Hon. T. FERGUS said copies of the resolutions passed at a meeting of tho mining delegates in Dunedin in February last had been received, and effejfc would be given to some of them in the Consolidated Mining Bill to be brought in by the Government.

Mr BUCHANAN asked the Government whether they will appoint an expert to examine and report upon the question of lung worms and other parasites which are causing great mortality amongst sheep and cattle in Zealand. ' *

"fhiTHon. G. F. RICHARDSON said the Government bad been inquiring into tbis matter, and they considered that in tho veterinary appointed and Professor Thomas they had men quite capable of dealing with the matter. Mr GUINNESS asked the Government whether they will inform the House the date upon which the prcstnt Parliament will expire by efflaxion of time. The Hon. Captain RUSSELL said the writs for the present Parliament were returned on the sth October 1887, and the Parliament was to continue in existence for three years from that date. NEW BILtS. A large number of new bills wero introduced. ADJOURNMENT. The House rose at 5 p.m. to enable members to attend at the departure of the steamer conveying Mr Turnbull's remains to Timaru. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. THE GENEBAL ELECTION. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, . Mr TANNER moved as an amendment— " That in the opinion of this House it is undesirable that a general election, through tfiluxion of time, shall take place before the next census is taken, and that the Government be requested to bring in a bill to give effect to this resolution." He pointed out shortly that it would be very inconvenient to have a general election in October when Parliament expired, and that tho reduction of members could not possibly take place till such expiration. It was very desirable, he thought, that Parliament should be prolonged till the next census was taken, and he hoped hie motion would be agreed to by tho House. Mr FISH would not discuss the motion, but he referred to the fact that the labour bills which were promised by the Government, this session were being kept back from the House, and he hoped do further delay would lie allowed to elapse before such important measures were brought down in order that their passing might be ensured. The Hon. B. MITCHELSON said no doubt during the last few years large increases had taken placa in the population of the North Inland, and it would on that score be to the advantage of the North Island to have the elections delayed till after the census was taken. The Government, however, could not agree to the proposal of the member for Waipawa, and would be compelled to oppose it. As to the question raised by Mr Fish, he (Mr Mitchelson) had previously stated that the Government were anxious to make consideraole progress with the Estimates before bringing down the labour bills but he intended to take the second reading oi those bills on Tuesday. In reply to the Hon. E. Richardson (Kaiapoi) The Hon. E. MITCHELSON said the Public Works Statement would be delivered on Tuesday next. Mr Tanner's amendment was then put anc lost by 64 votes to G. The House then went into COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY for consideration of Estimates. Secretaries, £750.—Mr M'Kenzie (WaihemoJ moved that the salary of the clerk of the Executive Council and secretary to the Cabinet (£500) be reduced by £50. He said it was quite evident they must commence by reducing high salaries.—The Hon. Captain Russell hoped the Committee would not agree to this reduction, This officer was a very old one, and already there wes a considerable saving by his performing the work that was formerly done by two officers.— Mr Fish supported the reduction.—Mr T. Mackenzie (CluSha) hoped some understanding would be arrived at over these reductions. His experience was that reductions were frequently made in the salaries of officers that first come bafore the Committee, and the remaining ones were allowed to slip through without alteration. Mr Ballance supported tho reduction, and said £450 a year was ample for the duties this officer had to perform, which were not at all onerous. —Mr Sedbon thought high salaries should be reduced. The House had a right to know in what directions the Government intended to make the reduction of £50,000 that was previously carried. —The Hon. Captaiu Russell resented thp charge that Ministers were desirous of keeping up high salaries to the prejudice of smaller officers. A glance through the Estimates would show the House that this was not the case. The officer in question was not only clerk to the Executive Council, but he was also confidential secretary to the Cabinet, and he thought £500 was not too much for an officer of that description.—Messrs Bkuce and Reeves (St. Albans) strongly supported the proposal to reducß this officer's salary.—Mr Betcb agreed with the view taken by the member for Clutha as to the method of reducing these salaries. He thought this particular salary could very well be reduced, but still they should have some concerted action as to how they were to proceed with the Estimates as a whole.—The Hon. Captain Russell hoped the Committee would pause beforo malting this reduction. His opinion was that reductions of this kind would not save £2000 in the whole of the Estimates.—Mr Monk congratulated his friends on tho opposite sido of the House on having at last realised tho necessity for economy in the public .service, but ho hoped that whatever retrenchment they effected would be in the right direction. Mr M. J. S. Mackenzie (Mount Ida) pointed out that the Government had already promised to effect reductions to the extent of £50,000, and he thought cutting off the fag end of salaries in thia direction was a most contemptuous way of doing things. It was not economy at all, but simply a waste of time and a [systematic policy of obstruction. He should oppose the reduction.—Mr Tanneb also would not vote for a redaction of salaries fihat had not been raised, but was prepared to do so in cases where increases were made. — Mr Cadma^

thought the Government were to blame, as they had been promised for the last six years to have a Civil Service Bill prepared which would regulate matters,—Mr Kehb would vote for the reduction, and said there were hundreds of intelligent men who would be glad to work for £500 a year!— The vote Wa3 reduced to £450 by 49 to

Mr Rbeves (St. Albans) moved tbattho item £150 for six private secretaries to Ministers at £25 each bo reduced by £25. He did bo because after tbe Honse hiid been reduced to 71 members the number oE Ministers would also be reduced.—The Hon. Captain Russell, iv reply to Mr Barron, said those secretaries had other duties to perform besides attending on Ministers, and had frequently to work very long hours. He pointed out that when the House was reduced there would still be six Ministers, there being, seven .at present.—Mr, T. Mackenzie (Clutha) was prepared to support reasonable reduction, but not absurd ones such as this.—Mr Thompson (Marsden) twitted Mr Reeves with going to extremes in the matter of retrenchment, and with being too zealons as all new converts were.—After considerable disoussion the vota was passed without alteration on the voices.

Vote, £4300: Messengers and offics-keepers.— Mr Fish moved that this item be reduced by £239, that being the amount of increase from last year. Ayes, 31; noes, 31.—The Chairman gave his casting vote with the noes.—Mr Rhodes moved to reduce the vote by £5 as a protest against any increase of salaries. The reduction was carried by 31 to 30.

Electoral Department, £2700.—Mr Brown asked for information as to when the eleotiona would take place. His opinion was that the session would last till the middle of September, in which case the elections could not be held till January.—The Hon. Captain Russeix said until this Parliament waadissolved the new writs could not be issued, and the elections could not be held at any rate until 72 days after the dissolulntion of the present —MrSEDpc-N moved to reduce the vote by £100. He protested against one of the Representation Commissioners being a near relative of the Minister for Education, and said it was in direct contravention of the feeling of the House when it decided to pat this matter outside politics. He also charged the commissioners with having altered the boundaries of certain districts at the instigation of private individuals, and he thought the gentleman he had alluded to would have shown better taste by retiring from the commission. The. boundaries should only be altered as required by law, and not on the representation of Ministers or private people.—Mr Stewabd (Waimate), although generally favourable to the redactions, thought the committee should hesitate before reducing this vote, as he considered it really insufficient.—The Hon. Captain Russell pointed out that there were 71 electorates for which registrars were only paid £600.. The highest paid registrar of electors wbb at Christohurch, and he only received £100, He contended that these men were really under paid. With respect to the serious charge of the member for Kumara, he might say the Representation Commissioner he had referred to was really appointed by the late Government, and he denied that members bad anything whatever to do with the alteration of the boundaries.— Mr Ballance was of opinion that registrars should commence making up the rolls at once so as to save time, —The Hon. Captain Russell said the whole machinery would have to remain as it was until Parliament was dissolved and the new districts were in force.—Mr Peacock said in view of the dissatisfaction that existed ai to the state of the rolls at present, it would be very unwise to make any reduction in the salaries of registrars of electors, —Mr Beown resented Mr Seddon's remarks about the Representation Commissioners. His opinion was they did their work faithfully and well.—Mr Kelly concurred in Mr Seddon'a contention, and said the boundaries in his district had been altered without any representation whatever.—Mr J. M'Kenzie (Waihemo) also said great dissatisfaction had been expressed with the work of the commissioners, and it would be almost impossible to convince the people of Oamaru that no alteration had been made in their district. He thought £800 for the expenses of the commission altogether too high.—Sir John Hall pointed out that registrars could not be appointed till now electoral districts were in force. He thought they were all agreed as to the desirability of having the elections held as soon as possible, and if alterations were required iv the law they should make it bo as to effect this object.—The Hon. J. Ballakce hoped the House would meet as soon as possible after the elections were held. He also urged on the Government the necessity of having the elections got over as quickly as could be done, as if the time was extended to three months it wonld be impossible for a poor man to contest a seat. As for the Representation Commission, ho thought it had utterly broken down. — The Hon. Captain Russell said everybody would agree that it was desirable to got the elections over as quickly as possible, but be thought the rolls could not be compiled in less than 30 days. He should take the best opinion available as to whether the rolls could be put in preparation before Parliament expired, and he should let the House know. —Replying to Mr Anderson, the Hon. Captain Russell said that whatever happened Government fully intended to reduce the Estimates by £50,000, and any reductions now made by the committee would affect it very little, only to the extent of £2000 or £3000. —Sir George Gret asked who was to govern the country after the elections were held in case of a Parliament hostile to the present Ministry being returned. They were entitled to have Parliament called together the moment it was elected, so as to ascertain who were to be the rulers of the country, and he hoped .that if there were eight determined men in the Hoase they would prevent supplies being given to Ministers till this question was answered. He should therefore move to report progress, in in order to compel an answer being given to his question.—Mr Fish cautioned Mr Anderson against being led away by this bogey of £50,000 which the Government promised to take off, as that amount could be easily taken from the excess of votes. His side of the House expected to cut down the Estimates by £70,000 or £80,000, and the plan they proposed was that where a salary stood at £700 they would move to reduce it to £600, and where it was fixed at £600 to reduce it to £500, and so on. He hoped that in doing so they would receive the support of those hon. gentlemen who were supporters of retrenchment. They would, of course, not interfere with the smaller salaries of £200 and below that amount.—Mr Anderson was glad to hear the Estimates so fully discussed by gentlemen of the ability of the member for Dunedin South, but be pointed out that if the Opposition intended to reduce the Estimates by £70,000 or £80,000 all he could say was they had made a very bad beginning by reducing a previous vote of £4300 by £5. He complained of the Opposition taking the responsibility of reducing the Estimates from the Government, when they had promised to take £50,000 off them, and he wished to understand the position clearly as to the manner of reductions.—The Hon. Captain Russell said that any reductions; made now would be included in the £50,000 promised by the Government.—Mr T. Mackenzie (Clutha) defended the Representation Commissioners, and said the charge hurled at Dr Hislop, one of the commissioners, by the member for Kumara was one that should not be heard in the House.—After further discussion the motion for reporting progress was lost by 30 to 21.—The total vote of £2700 was then passed as printed.

Audit Office, £6215.—The Hon. Mr Ballanch said this department was one that admitted of substantial reduction. The Government had never been able to reduce this vote as the department always managed to resist it. It appeared to him that if a Deputy-audi-tor was to be appointed there should be no chief clerk, and in that way alone £400 could be saved. The audit office in the Agit»S' general's department was over manned, and £400 more could bs saved there also. The vote for contingencies could also ba reduced by £500, and all these reductions could be made without impairing the efficiency of the department. He moved that the total vote be reduced by £1300/ and he thought the Government should assist him in carrying it. —The Hon. Cnpiaiu Russell defended the item, and said he hoped the committee would not reduce tho voto by so largo an amount as that proposed by the member for WaDganui. He was assured that the vote for this department had been carefully prepared. —Mr Bbuce asked why Mr Ballancc had not pointed out that those redue* tions could be made when his Government was in office.—Mr Fisu charged Mr Bruce with being actuated by party feelings in discussing the Estimates.—Tae Hod. T. W. Hislop said it was amusing to hear Mr Ballance talk about reductions in. thi3 department when the estimate wao actually £1000 less than it was during the time of the Stout-Vogel Government. It was probable the Audit department would be done away with altogether, but it could not bo dona at present.—The Hon. J. Ballancb said the position was entirely altered now from what was the case in the time of the late Government, as several departments had been taken over from the Audit department since they had been in office.—The Hon. T. W. Hislop said Mr Ballance was misleading the House, rs the only department taken over was that of bankruptcy, and there was more work in that than in all the departments put together.—After further discussion, the Hon. Captain Russell moved to report progress, promising to have full information obtained as to thi3 department.— The motiou was agreed to.

The House rose at 1.15 a.m.