HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 8209, 14 June 1888, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday, June 13. The House met at 2 30 p.m. . LAND FOR SETTLEMENT BILL. Tho Land for Settlement Bill was received from the Wasto Lauds Committee, and on Sir G. GREY'S motion was ordered to bo com--1 mitted on the 20th June. t THE CASE OF JOSItUA JONES. ° ?h P u lyZi° Kr'H' A" ATKINSON said a gentleman bad boen eommunioftted with to 1 ascertain whether he would act as commissioner in tho Joshua Jones case, but no reply had yet 1 been received. A commissioner would probably 1 be appointed next day. j . r THE TARIFF DEBATE. Mr RHODES resumed tho debate on the 1 motion for tho committal of the Customs Duties Bill, He said that ns the question of ) Frcotrado v. Protection had been thoroughly 1 threshed out already, he should not go fully > into that matter. He wished to say, however, )as one who had voted hitherto with the Government, that he could not support the tariff i proposals. Although he ha;l givtn very few p pledges to his constituents, one pledge ho had ; given was that he should oppose any additional . taxation. While giving the Government every i credit for the retrenchment they had alreadj effected, he felt perfectly certain that the , country would demand further reductions, tei> . ing that a deacit of £128,000 still existed. He i should oppose raiainj? the school age, as he

tught no great saving would ba effected, of t ile some of the boards would have great sup Sculty in meeting their engagements. Tho mci iposal to abolish education boards would also the :et with his disapproval, as he was opposed to I anc ything in the direction of centralisation. He wo s not sufficiently acquainted with the Railway 1 partraent to say whether any reduction could mo made in it, but he was perfectly certain that las 8 receipts could be iucreased if freights were I ass 3ucec. He would support Mr Beothain's opj lendment, as he thought until the Public IHt orks Statement was brought down it was im- Imc ssible to say whether further reductions could ITt : made. I thi Mr BLAKE said they must legislate for their I v>u ra necessities and throw to the winds both to :eetrade and Protection. He thought the I gii eps proposed to be taken for remedying the I tai :esent state of things were effective ones, and j 3 should therefore support the Government ye roposals. There were many things in them he Ico mid not agree with, but he was prepared to ye ike them as a whole, not for any consideration vii I Protection or Freetrade, but simply foi the jWI snefit of the country at large. He would vote Itb gainst raising the school ago as he was desirous Iqv f seeing men able to strike out an independent I w Durae for themselves, and to do that it was I m ecessary that children should be sent to school IDi s early as possible. Referring to railway mat- Ivi ers, he said last year that it would be impos- Ie( ible to get commissioners from Home to manage jpi heir railways efficiently. . |t( Mr IZARD said he was returned to support I £ ,he same policy, although he had now deserted I n ,be pledges he gave at his election. He felt con- I p winced that further reductions could be effected Iti )Blor6 such a burden as the tariff proposed was I q placed o*B the shoulders of the people. As to I raising the school age, he had voted against it I t last year, but he had since seen reason to doubt I g whether he was right in so doing. He was in I E favour of abolishing the San Francisco mail ser- I n rice, and also the subsidies to local bodies. He I f expressed his intention of voting for Mr I j Beetham's amendment, although he regretted I ( it had been moved. He could not help feel-1 ing it was rather ill-timed, and likely to I j waste the time of the House. The Government, 1 f however, really ought to devise some meauß by I , which it could bs ascertained whether such I , heavy taxation was necessary. It was not the I , Freetraders who had deserted the Government, I , but the Government who had deserted their I party, and he questioned very much if the Oppo-1 sition would adhere after the Government pro-1 posals were disposed of. •He submitted that an j appeal to the constituents should have been I made before such a change was made in their I fiscal policy as was now proposed. After refer- I ring to several items of the tariff, he said he I disapproved of the duty on salt, soap, and soda. I A constituent had informed him that the whip-1 making industry would be practically destroyed I by the duty proposed to be puton leather. I Mr ANDERSON thanked the Government I for the able manner in which they had carried I out their retrenchment proposals. He felt, I however, that such heavy taxation waß not re- I quired, and if the Government had 'dealt with I the matter they could have brought down the I Public Works Statement before imposing such heavy duties on the people. Referring to the education question, he thought raising the school age would not be detrimental tothe system in any way. We could also afford to do with one mail service in the present condition of the colony. .The time would certainly come when subsidies to local bodies would have to be abolished; but, it was hardly fair at present to withdraw such subsidies till the people were educated up to it. He thought it wise at the present juncture to adhere to the property tax, and not make a change in that mode of taxation. He noticed several items in the tariff which would bear very heavily on the farming community, and if tixalion came to bo heavier on them thousands would have to go to the wall. He protested in the name of the farming class against the proposed taxation. He combated Mr Walker's itatement that a Protective tariff was beneficial to a farming community. He (Mr Anderson) intended to adhere to the position he had taken up when he came to the House, aud although: Freetraders had no hope of success at present, he hoped the day would come when they would succeed. . . Mr LOUGHRBY had gone through the tariff, and ho agreed with it on the whole, although some of the item 9he could not agree with. He thought the question of Freetrade aud Protec: tion might have beejojeft out of the discussion altogether. '. There was nothing, to his mind, so well calculated to stop the exodus of people from the colony as the encouragement of local industries, and he was glad to see the result of the Premier's visit to several parts of the colony was to propose such a tariff as ho had brought down. He read a letter from a boot manufacturer in Christchurch to the effect that the tariff now proposed would assist the, boot industry in every way, and that if the tariff was in force 12 months employment would bo found in this trade alone for au extra 100 hands. That he thought should be sufficient encouragement for the Premier. He intended to support the Government proposals. Mr THOMPSON (Marsden) said he must admit that the Government had curried out their retrenchment policy as satisfactorily as could be expected, but he thought they would have to go further. Ho knew that they mast have revenue, but he was opposed to any Protective items in the tariff. The proposal to raise the school age would bo prejudicial to country districts, and ho could not support it, neither could he approve of abolishing subsidies to local bodies. There was very little to be gained also by doing away with tho San Francisco service. If Mr Beetham had brought down a motion for reducing the Estimates by a lump sum be might have supported it, but he could not support his present motion. ■ -. Mr MONK disapproved of the property tax as not being equitable in its operation. He referred to the tax at some length, and quoted cases of several properties which had beer valued at ridiculously small figures. He said hf was not against the principle of the act, but h< felt that the mariner in which it -was administered was driving capital out of the country. H< knew of cases in which land was valued, at £i 10s per acre, and let at 18s per' acre,. anc he could prove that n most immoral process o) valuation had been practised on poor people in many instances. The feeling in the North was very strong in this direction, that there shoulc baa more automatic system of taxation, so thai everyone might know what they had to pay The property tax was immoral in its tendency as properties were unduly valued in order t( .swell the revenueof the colony. He referrec atsomo length to the question of Freetrade and Protection, and said that America had Freetrade, and depression followed. She then trice Protection, and prosperity followed; and this was tried three times. He beard, however, thai iv some instances it was a political crime not tc adopt Freetrade; whilst in other instancesii was almost criminal to refuse assistance tc certaiu manufacturers. He wished to announce himself a Freetrader logically, but t Protectionist at heart. He was interrupted bj the 5:30 adjournment. : Evening Sitting". The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. . . THE TAKIFI DEBATE CONTINUED. : Mr MONK continued his remarks. Referrinf to the Government policy, he said howevei much they might thank Ministers for their retrenchment proposals, there still remained t great deal to be done. He deprecated th( wasteful expenditure that had been going on foi years in the colony, and referred to tbe lat( Government having expended £100,000 that wai unauthorised by Parliament. Respecting rail; way management, he said all that was wantec was to put the railways under a board of com; missioners. If such a proposal were adoptee two or three years ago, the country would havf been in a much better position than it was at present. He considered that £40,000 or JESO.OOC could be saved in the Education department, ir which extravagant expenditure was also, goinj on. He had no desire to impair the efficiency of that system, but he considered much savins could be effected in carrying it out. He hao come to the House pledged to retrenchment, anc if thera:waß anything ho regretted, it wasl in having voted for the million loan last year, as he felt that the country would; be in a mosl serious position if they did not stop the borrowing policy. There were many things in the Financial Statement he approved of, such as the primago duty. Ho had plenty of faith iv the future of the colony, but he was convinced that stern retrenchment was necessary if it was to be prosperous. Mr HOBBS said he had been for many years a member of tho House, but had never heard a no-confidence motion proposed by an important member of the House without the Government taking some notice of it and giving their views on the question. He (Mr Hobbs) would therefore speak on bebalf of the Government. In bis opinion Mr Beetham's amendment Khould havo been iv the Bhapo of one to request the Government to take buck the Estimates and recast them. Ho defended the San Franciscc survice, which so many members bad attacked, As to all this talk about Freetrade aud Protection, they could uot help themselves. Thoy must impose taxation. They were bound to considei their position and legislate for the necessities ol the country. The country was looking to the House to reliovo it, and he considered they could not do that in any other way but thai proposed by the Government. Ho hoped that they would now proceed with the business of thf country, and he must uuter bis protest against the waste of time which had taken place. Mr O'CONOR referred to the divorsity o) opinion that prevailed on this question. He did not know what Freetraders wanted, and thought they would be ready to adopt Freetrade if they could do without taxation ami employ the people of tho country. As for the proposal* ol tha Government, he approved, of many of them, but fenrud that tho taatiou they were now imposing would not assist luo colony's industries. It would not open our lauds, nor would it buuefit the mining industry. It appeared to him that now was the time for a thorough adjustment of taxation, :iml for opening up the Crbwu lands of the country in such a manner as to give employment to the people. Referring to railway matters he asserted that, the only possible way to administer them properly was to toko tbem out of the control of tho House altogether. Ho disagreed with some of thp proposals of tho Government, but if there was one thing more than another that pleased him it was tbe announcement that the Government intended to abolish tho Public Works department, as that department had frequently beeu the -means of perpetuatingjobbery inman'ydirections.' He should not support Mr Beetham's amendment, but would endeavour in committee to strike out some items with which he disagreed. Tho Government were to be thanked for the exceptions they had nwle in tho duty on mining machinery, but ha disapproved of the duty on tea aail salt. He could not support any proposal tluvb would interfere with tho cxis!i;,j,' system of education as regards country schools, and b& could uot therefore support the raisiug

•ho school age. He was quite prepared to ipott the Government till lie found gentleu more capaMo of administering tho affairs or i country, and he felt sure that Mr Beetham, J other members of the Freetrade party uld not do so. Mr FRASEU said that New Zealand was now ire or less a Protective country, and so loDg the local industries of the colony required listance he should support them. He was posed, however, to the duty on tea and salt. i advocated the encouragement of the mining, lustry as being one of paramount importance, le Government were to be congratulated on< c amount of retrenchment they had effected,. t either they or their successors would haveeffect still greater reductions. He should' ye the Government a general support 00 the? riff proposals. '"■■•■' Mr MOSS was pleased to find that the Comment were at last about to take an opposite urse from that which had prevailed for many jars. He disapproved of the tea duty to prode subsidies for local bodie:-, and ne thought it as an unfair thiog to put members in le position of having to vote on a lestion of this kind, as neatly every member as interested in some way."or other in this tatter. Like many other gentlemen he had een a Freetrader 10 years, and he was coninced his frieuds, the Freetraders, would be inverted from their Freetrade opinions. The osition farmers took up on this question seemed o him most incomprehensible of all, as upon the lome market their prosperity depended. Ho ras quite certain that anyone looking at the losition of the-country, at present "must agree hat a change in our policy was necessary. He , [voted from extracts to prove that Canada too lad benefited.materially from a policy of Proection, and he felt confident that a similar re-.-ult would follow in New Zealand, and if it did iot follow so quickly as in Canada they should lot despair in tho hope that the colony would jrosper eventually by the adoption of each a jolicy. He should support the proposals of the Sovernment. '■■■■ ; .■- , Mr J.M'KENZlß(Waihemo)feltthatthesub-,.----iect was pretty well exhausted, but he wouldliketo .- saya few words on the financial policy of the Government. He belonged to no party, as no party.existed in the House at all, and he would like to approach this question apart from consideration of party. During the debate he had listened to the speeches' of., those opposed to the Government proposals in the hope that he would have heard some proposition having for its object the substitution of some scheme by which this taxation could be avoided, but he failed te gather . from any of those gentlemen that they had any alternative to produce for the Government policy. He therefore found he could not support Mrßeetham's amendment, especially as he could not agree to raising the school age. Their.--duty now was to see how? much money they cculd save, and then to raise the required, amount of money by taxation. A great deal of retrenchment could be effected in the Railway department, and it was most .necessary to have the railways better managed than at present. In his opinion .the Railway : department was rotten to the core,' and that was riot due to political, action, but to depart?; mental action. He did not blame ; the political: head of that department in the :House: for mismanagement,1 but if the Government desired to Btudy the interests of the colony they could not ■ do it better than by placing the railways usder a boaid, and reducing freights for the carriage of produce. He had voted against raising the school age last year, and he should do so again,; as if the age were raised a large number of country schools would have to be closed. ■ With respect to subsidies to. local bodies, he believed that if more responsibility were given to those bodies it would be well to abolish subsidies, but .- this should not be done mjthout some provision being made for aid; and' if this were done local bodies would be able to raise money on .their own account. As to the retrenchment ■ carried. out by the Government, he was sorry to' say that in many cases that retrenchment was effected for party purposes. The country did not think sufficient reductions had been made, and it would demand it, especially in the Bailway department. When that was done he should be prepared to give the Government support in. raising all the revenue required: ■"■ :■' . •'-■.,. The Hon; Mr FISHER said he had been charged by several members with inconsistency as regarded the present tariff proposals. He quoted from speeches he had made, in the. House and also to-his- constituents, in which he bad advocated oncouragement tolocaJ industries, and he said it was sufficient for .him to show tho House on this question that his opinions in 1886 were the. opinions, he had advocated in 1887, and those'of 1887-were the snme as he now professed. It was due to the House,that thuse gentlemen should_ show in what respect he had changed "his opinions. He bad not gone round at all as was stated," and he merely wished to say that on this particular question he had expressed the Bame opinion in 1886,1887, and 1888. Dr HODGKINSON said that unless the Government could show that no more retrenchment could be effected and that this taxation was necessary, he should be compelled to vote for Mr Beetham's amendment. '•'-..- Mr TAYLOR said it would be a great injustice to the colony at*large ; if the Government were put out of office at the present time and for some time to come.' He therefore suggested that as Mr Beetham had made his promise ha should, withdraw bis amendment. . Mr ORMOND'said that'when Mr Fisher arose he was in hopes that that gentleman was about to give tho House some information as to the nacessities for tho large taxation proposed, and he was greatly astonished when he sat down without saying anything about it. Tho amendment of Mr.-Beetham he took it was moved as a protest against' laying on taxation until that information was given to the House, and he regretted that-.the. Government had not given it.. He' explained passingly that he should not take up: the attitude' assumed by other hon. gentlemen, and oppose the Government after their present proposals, with which he disagreed, Dad been disposed of. The,questions decided at the last elections were that there were to be reductions in the expenditure, and that there was to be no more taxation unless it.was unavoidable. The question at .issue was now whether all possible retrenchment had been effected before this extra taxation wai asked for. The taxation ridw apparently about to be enforced was in his opinion unjust and unfair in its application, and it would bear unjustly on the industrial classes. It was going to be carried mainly by; the votes of these who claimed to represent the working classes., Were the industrial classes at the present timo in ■ position to have that taxation imposed on them? They knew from what they saw going on that they were not,* for the tariff meant a very, large increase on articles most in use by those classes. He contended that if the property tax exemptions had been reduced to £100 or £200, and if services had been cut down as they could have been this'taxation would not have been necessary. There could be little doubt that if the question iwas'properly put the House was in favour of raising the school age to six.— (" No.") He hoped, however; that Mr Tanner would not press his motion to raise the age. to seven. Raferring to the report of- the Minister of Education; he said ho felt bound to regret the tone of that report in which the boards were discussed in a manner which he considered not warranted, and he complained that misleading figures were given in that report. He quoted those referring to the Hawke's; Bay district, in which he! said there was a gross blunder. He considered, also, that if bis proposals had been fairly taken' a large majority, of the House would be in favour of -doing away, with the subsidies to local bodies. ■: He pointed out that Mr Ritchie, in introducing.- the Local Government Bill in the House _of Commons said it was intended to do away with the ill-advised system of grauts in aid, otherwise subsidies. He thought. in ■ the present condition of the colony it would have been better not to fund the. deficit this year, and he could not therefore join in the congratulations which Mr Ballance and the Treasurer had given to each other for a reformation in this respect. He would like to 6ay to those hon. gentlemen, who like himself disagreed with tho proposals of the Government, that it was necessary, in politics to think of-tho other alternative.:, In this case, he should be , compelled to vote against them at whatever cost,' but fortunately it' lost nothing at present. It was to be regretted that the Premier had severed himself-from those gentlemen, and it also was to.bs regretted that,those gentlemen had left the Government. He (Mr Ormond) could not help remembering that the Premier and Minister for Lands had brought in a: land bill that would be considered of much more advantage.to" the colony than the present bill. Government had also;/effected aVyery neuest.ary scherao of retrenchment/and he hoped his-hon. -friends would remember those good acts of the Government after this question was disposed of. Because he (Mr Ormond) was opposed to the Government on this question, he had no desire to hand over the Government to the tender meroies > of his friends opposite. : ' Mr BUXTON did not wish to bo old in Parliament if he had no. bcttrr ideas than Mr Ormoud had expressed. He claimed that they had not gone over to the Government, and if the Government came over to them they would_ take as much care of them as possible. He believed the Government carried out their retrenchment policy in as effective a manner as could have been done; and as to the tariff proposals,he should support them as a whole, on the understaudiDß that subsidies -aero to be continued for sometime. Ho should vote- for the tea duty. He would be careful, however, while supporting tho Government ori the question to see in. what company ho found himself. ■ Mr MENTEATH referred to the speech madfi early in the evening by the Minister for Education, mid paid he failed to sou how the Premier could cnll bis Ministry a Freetrnde Ministry. They hnd:great hopes that the: bor- 1 rowing policy would be put a stop to, but they had a loan act this year, and all sorts of services wore to be provided'out •of it. Referring to the deficit, he said it bad been brought about by / a failure in railway revenue, and the proposal was to throw on customs taxation : a deficit of £125,000, which had been brought about by a reduction of railway rates. Mr O'CALLAGHAN moved the adjournment of the debate till 2.30 next day.—Agreed to. ■ . ■■,'.- .-': -' . .-'■ ■ ' ■■■-■ ■ The House rose at 12.15 a.m. •■--...." Childbb-v stakvixg to death on account of their inability (oddest food, Svill find a most marvellous 'food and remedy in Scott's EMULSION OF l'lfßE Cod • Liy.hu Oil with Hitophosphitks. Very palatable anrteasilvi'igested. Bead the following testimonial: " I have prescribed ' Scott's Buui.«ion ' in casee of children suffering from wasting and mal-nutrltlon, •mid can report roo3t favourably of its good effect; it has ueoa iv each case taken moot rciulil.y. . ■ •• W. PrSkiss, M.H.C.5.,: "yodieal Fupt^Burleigh-l-rospital.Ktig.". ~ Large and small bottles at all Chemists, 4s 6a and . 2a6d, ■' ' ..'•■•■■'.■■ :-.. •'.■■..■■'. I