GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 4267, 21 October 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Wellington, October 20thv In the Legislative Council, a motion wasr carried that the Council regrets the officer^ of the Council had not been placed on a footing' of equality with the officers of the House of Representat'ves. , The Dunedin Extension Borrowing Powera Committee recommended that the amendments be waived, and there be added to clause 3, that; L/ 100,000 be spent on drainage only. The report of the managers was adopted. _ The Appropriation' Act, and < Immigration ■ and Public Works Appropriation Bill, weue read a third time and passed. The Disqualifi- ' cation Act Amendment Bill and Representation Bill were passed. On the House resnming, at 7.36 last evening; \ Mr Reid brought up the report of the ' managers of both Houses on the Otago Waste '■ Lands Bill, in which they recommended to the ' Houses the following modifications: —3s pear ! acre vice 4s—2l vice 28, 30s vice iQs % clause 8 ' to be erased; in place of voting by. ballot^, ' where there is more than one application, the land to be sold by auction. ,; ■ ' Mr Mervyn opposed the adoption of fcne report. , Mr Reid strongly supported the report, sat , being highly beneficial to the Colony. Mr Macandrew also recommended the adoption of the report, otherwise, he said, the B*j|t must be thrown ont. The adoption of the report was carried on t&* 1 voices. '.-'■• On the motion for going into Committee ds Mr 6'Rorke moved that Government &• • requested to place on the Supplementary Estimates L6OO as a grant to Mrs Williamson, th« : widow of the late Superintendent of Auckland. In doing so, the honourable gentleman said * sufficient sum had been raised by private sub- > scription to buy a house and land for the , widow; LIOOO had been voted by the Provincial Council; this, with the proposed Uofflf, invested in Government annuities, would gi«e ■ the lady an income of Ll5O a year. Sir Donald M'Lean, after paying a higa compliment to Mr Williamson, said it would afford, lim much pleasure, and have the concurrence of the Government to support the proposed grant, which was at once carried on the voice. Mr Fitzherbert then spoke for about tw» hours on the general financial position of tfw Colony. He said the total indebtedness was close on 20 millions, involving an.annual charge of one million, and he did not envy the sanguin* temperament of any honourable member who> considered such a a state of affairs only worthy of light consideration. He compared the English national debt, the interest on which wen& back to the pockets of the ratepayers, to tfc« New Zealand debt, the interest on which wenfe i.lmost exclusively out of the Colony, into the hands of foreigners. He compared also Turkey^ which with 28 million inhabitants, paid 12 millions a year. New Zealand, with 300,00^, had to pay one million. Turkey would be in the same position as New Zealand, if it had only 4 million people, or with its present population, if it had to pay yearly eighty thousand. The honourable gentleman protested againstife being said that to speak freely of our financial position was tantamount to impairing tha credit of the Colony. On the contrary, the foundation of the credit of this or any country could only rest on the naked disclosure of its financial "position. He said Sir Julius Vogel last year deceived Parliament, and the House had a ridit to complain; for he had then said, in effect^ he did not require the L 4,000,000, bufc merely wished authority to borrow in case he could sell the debentures at a large prafit, and place tUe country above the exigencies of the money market. He had been criticised and questioned by him (Mr Fitzherbert), yet would answer no questions ; but the House was witfe. him, and authority was granted, though time had proved his prognostications were borne ou£ by the papers laid on the table respecting lie four million loan, and proved that before the late Treasurer reached the English shores negotiations had been opened up for the sale of the loan. The present .Treasurer now told that every LIOO bond was sold at L9O 19s 7d. How - did such tally with the promises of the late. Treasurer ? Had the Treasurer told the House the real facts, the House would not have accorded the authority it did. The House had been deceived in respecttothatloan. Again, the late Treasurer had said he was going to provide for a long time to come, but how was that reconciled with the fact that a premium of 5 per cent, was given to pay up prompt, althouga he was investing the lnouey at a loss. There was another proof that the House had beejj.

deceived —viz., the money was urgently needed for the present instead of being required for the future. He quoted from evidence given by the Treasurer before the Public Accounts Committee iv proof of the pressing need of money, for of the four millions only one remained, and that was loaded to a great extent. He then referred to the statement ■ made by the Treasurer last year that there had been nearly two millions of loan to be raised, and said that, when negotiating the four million loan, he had not said anything about that to those whom he negotiated with. He read a portion of the •evidence given by Mr [Waterhouse before the 'Committee on Public Accounts in support of 'the assertion. The evidence contained details •of a conversation between Messrs Waterhouse, Westgarth, Rothschild, and Julyan, and in "which all had professed ignorance of any such cpower to borrow. The promise had been [given, but this year the Treasurer proposed to break the promise by issuing the remnants of •some of the loans. Major Atkinson said the Government had made no such promise. They had carefully •abstained from making such a promise. Mr Fitzherbert said that the statements of Hothschild and Westgarth were at variance with that of the Treasurer, but if the House -would look into the details of evidence given by witnesses before the Committee, they could judge ' for themselves on this matter. It could have been negotiated much better by the loan agents, ■who would have issued it in two parts, and not •in the imprudent manner in which it had been done. If two millions had been issued, they would have been realised, and the Colony, by the use of this, would have gained breathing time before it again went into the market. He thought the credit of the Colony had been ' damaged by the way this loan had been negotiated. It was really nothing but a forced loan. He then referred to the report of the Committee on Public Accounts, which showed that the London account was entirely without control. That a sum of nearly two millions had been spent by the Agent General without any of the usual safeguards. The honourable gentleman then, at considerable length, criticised the several items making up, according to the Treasurer's statement, the sum still available out of the total loans. He thought ways and means had been very much over-estimated, and the cost of many works and services much under-esti-mated, probably by £700,000 or £800,000. Then what was there to look forward to ? The land revenue had been appropriated to local works. The Treasurer should have told the House how provision was to be made for future requirements, and ah indication of what would . be the incidence of future taxation should have been given. Major Atkinson, after complimenting the last speaker upon his speech, because it was fair and reasonable, said he thought his state- . ments were not well founded, though he should not accuse him of deceiving the House. Any :■ hon. gentleman in the House who had the slight- • est notion of finance last session must ■ have known that nearly the whole of the four : millions was required. A total loan of six . millions had been authorised, as stated by Sir Julius Vogel. Nearly four millions were .' required, and the hon. member for the Hutt must have known that the whole of the money previously raised had been spent, and that the four millions were required immediately. It was clear from the very speech quoted by the hon. member that the whole financial position of the Colony was put before the House, and the charge of deception must fall to the ground. Last year, with an empty exchequer, he proposed to spend two and a half millions on public works, so that it must have been known that nearly the whole of the four millions must necessarily have been raised. He contended that the money had been raised most advantageously, for, supposing, as was probable at the time, a European war had broken •out, what would the country then have had to pay for the money if raised in two instalments ? As matters had turned out, it appeared the money would have been raised pore ■■■ cheaply, but it would not have _ been wise or prudent to run the risk for the sake of a little interest. The papers laid before the House ■■showed that the loan agents could not have got more than L9O for two millions, whereas for the four millions the actual price obtained by Sir . Julius Vogel was L9O 18s 7d. As to placing the whole with the Bank of New Zealand, that was part of the original scheme, and one of the inducements to the contractors to take up the loan, because by the whole loan being paid up they would at once get five percent, for their money. Mr Fitzherbevt had said the debt was L 20,000,000, the population 300,000. This ■ exaggerated the debt, and Mr Fitzherbert appearecyto have forgotten the sinking fund, ■ which would amount to one and a half million, . and population would then certainly be 400,000. He contended that the comparison with Turkey was worthless, for the last loan Turkey put upon the market realised only 43i per cent., and the London money market must surely be taken as a guide. He quite agreed with Mr Fitzherbert that the country ■ should have known its true financial position : but it wrs a crime for the honourable gentleman to get and, for party purposes, distort facts. One honourable gentleman occupying a high position in the Colony, had got up and . accused him (the Colonial Treasurer) of gross carelessness for not having included L 400,000 Treasury Bills in the funded debt; but when •. his error was pointed out, what was his excuse? that he had not time to look at the papers ; he had been in such a hurry to accuse Government of a great deal more than carelessness, that he could not look at the papers. It was such statements as these, not honest criticism, ' that damaged the credit of the Colony. It was .■■ such statements as these that every one should • discourage. He regretted that the statements of third parties should be taken before direct statements, for he was perfectly certain that Rothschilds would not be ignorant of the state • - of Colonial affairs, and he was equally certain that Sir Julius Vogel was not the man to deceive the firm. He could not believe the statements of third parties. Mr Fitzherbert said the statement to Mr "Waterbouse had been an authorised coimnuni- • cation. Major Atkinson said he still preferred direct statements to "authorised statements" from third parties. He denied that the estimates of income were too high, and did not believe there ■would be deficiencies. The Treasurer then proceeded to make a statement of th.c financial proposals of the Government additional to the financial statement, regarding that this had become necessary consequent on the House having determined that the Provincial form of Government was not to be abolished until after next session. CJaiises one to eight in the estimates would remain unaltered. The class of railways would be decreased from L 240,000 to 1,100,000. Provincial services would be -omitted. The total expenditure now proposed was L 2,103,664. The Government had proposed to spend LBO,OOO in subsidies, and IjGO,OOO in local Government works, now they proposed to spend LSO,OOO only; and in this way it had been proposed to give lload Boards L 2 for every LI raised, and LI to rural Muni- - cipalities for every LI raised ; now they proposed to give Municipalities one-third of a pound per pound, and Road Boards one-third of jL2 for every L 2 raised, or 13s 4d ; and LSO,OOO was the total amount of the . vote the Government proposed to take. The Government would lose revenue, but expected to have a surplus of L 127,000 The Estimates, however, did not include the Supplementary Estimates, so that there v. ould have - to be added something like LIO.OOO or L 12.000 1,92,000 also had to be provided for Auckland and Westland. The extra expenditure would be L 140,000, while the surplus revenue was but L 127,000 to meet this. He would employ Consolidated Revenue as much as possible, and would only issue Treasury Bills where necessary. Sir George Grey defended the statements . made by Mr Fitzherbert. Mr Montgomery spoke at length of the financial condition of the Colony. Mr Andrew said it was unfortunate Sir Julius Vogel did not tell the House last session ■of his intention to visit England ; but he was ;absent and ill, otherwise he could doubtless have cleared away the mists which now •obscured some of our financial questions. He ■compared the English debt with that of New .Zealand. He did not wish to speak lightly of -the latter, bu^ did not for one moment fear its amount. A new country with a large area of ' unreclaimed land, must have money spent on it in excess of its present revenues, or it would remain as useless as an undrained swamp, which only yields a revenue of intermittent Mr Tribe said he, too, had no fear of Now Zealand debt. Though it had largely increased the last few years, taxation had diminished by nearly one-half. Twelve years ago it was L6 4s per head ; now, only L 3 ss. He considered that every additional million borrowed and well spent was so much added to the wealth of the Colony. The financial debate then ceased. Mr White asked the Government to erect a telegraph station in the Arrow district Mr Reynolds promised to consider the matter •favourably if the reports of the officers of the department encouraged him thereto. Sir Murray moved that the Local Government Bill be made public one month before the meeting of the Assembly. Lost on the voices. The House then went into Committee of Mr Reeves asked for an explanation re the ■vote LSOO for Parliamentary draughtsman. Mr Bowen said it was intended to send to England for an experienced one, at a, salary of XIOOO. The present vote was for six months. Mr Reeves said only a young practitioner would come out at such a salary, and he thongnt -there were gentlemen in the Colony quite competent to fulfil the duties of the office. Mr Bowen pointed out that an officer of this kind required special training and this could Sy be acquired in England. That a very trelt change in drafting Acts had recently faken place. They were now couched in Enf'lisk most perfect, simple, and terse, not in the old-fashioned cumbrous language for-

merly used, and he thought it was desirable the Colony should secure the benefit of some gentleman's services who was conversant with this change. Mr Macandrew thought there was no country in the world where you were so likely to pick up an experienced draughtsman as New Zealand. There was no country in the world which, for time and population, could compete with New Zealand in amount of legislation. He believed some 1500 Acts had been passed. _ Sir George Grey hoped that in passing this item it would be made a condition that the appointment should, if possible, be made from residents in the Colony, for he was sure theie were plenty of fully competent men it. Mr Brandon thought it would be a mistake to send Home for such an officer. Mr Reid thought the same. Mr Bewen said the Government were quite willing to endeavour to get an efficient man iv the Colony. It had no wish to go elsewhere if one could be found here. The honourable gentleman paid a high compliment to tne Solicitor-General. The item was agreed to. Marawh enua Bridge—Lsooo—was struck out. All the other items on the Supplementary Estimates were passed without alteration. The Immigration and Public Works Appropriation Bill was committed and reported with amendmants. It was read a third time, and will be passed to-morrow. The House meets at 2.30 p.m. to pass the Appropriation Bill and conclude the business of the session. The House .adjourned at 3.15 a.m. The House met at 2.30 to-day. Mr Stafford brought up the Public Accounts Committee's report, which recommended that notice should be given to determine the present agreement with the Bank of New Zealand, and that tenders should be invited from all Banks in the Colony to take the Colonial account. With respect to Mi- Bridge's evidence, the Committee reported that his imputations and inferences are absolutely unwarranted and without foundation.—(Applause.) Mr Bunny moved the adoption of the report, which was strongly supported by Sir Donald M'Lean, Mr Stafford, Sir George Grey, and other members. The motion concurring in the report was adopted and ordered to be communicated by the Speaker to Sir Julius Vogel. The Appropriation Bill passed through all its stages. The House adjourned at 4 p.m. till 2.00 next day, prorogation taking place at three. I ; { i l t 3 f c 1 t ■r 1 ; i ■ } ' : ' * ' , ; f ( ' i Ic ' , e i ' < : 1 s l l 1 ' : ' s