PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 2002, 30 May 1868, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

FRIDAY, May 29th.

Tlie Speaker (Mr VV. H. Reynolds, M.H.R.), took the chair at seven o'clock. Messrs Vogel, Duncan, Haggitt, M'Dermid, and Hughes, took their seats on the Government benches. MESSAGES. | Three Messages, from the Superintendent, were brought down and were read. No. 9, intimated that His Honor had, ,on behalf of the Governor, assented to the Inprast Supply Ordinance, 1868. In No. 10, His Honor transmitted a return, showing tho names of those Volunteers who, having served tho prescribed five years, were entitled to tho remission of purchase-money on land, in terms of the Volunteers' Lands Act, 1865. Tho maximum sum required to cover the whole of those claims being L 330, the Superintendent recommended to the Council to make an appropriation of that Bum.

! No. 11, intimated that, consequent upon the resignation ef Messrs D. Reid, J.W. Thomson, D. Hutcheson, and H. . Clark, he had appointed Mr J. Vogel, to •be Provincial Secretary and Treasurer ; Mr George Duncan, to be Secretary for Land and Works ; Mr B. C. Haggitt, to be Provincial Solicitor; Mr Hugh M'Dermid and Mr John Hughes, to be members of tho Government without office. The SPEAKER said that the Superintendent had alao forwarded a copy of tho Gazette, of May 2fJth, containing announcements of the appointment of Messrs Vogel, Duncan, Haggitt, M'Dermid, and Hughes, to be members of the Executive Council of tho Province. It was agreed that Message, No. 10, should be considered at tho next sitting. KEI'OKTS. Mr MITCHELL brought up Interim Reports from the Committee on Private Grievances'— No. 17, William Barr ; No. 18, Thomas and Ann Morris. Mr Mitchell also brought up tho final report of the Committeo. PETITION. Mr TAYLER presented a petition from residents in tho district of Lower Harbor West The petition waa received. [ THE CIIISIS : EXPLANATIONS. I Tlie SPEAKER read tho first Order of the Day—Committee of Supply. Mr M'DERMID said ho presumed it would be expected that he should sajr a few words on what had transpired during the day.—(Hear, hear.) He had been "sent for" by the Superintendent, in consequence of tbe vote come to last night, and of the resignation of the Government which had resulted from that vote. In the course of the afternoon, he had submitted to His Honor the names of the gentlemen who now sat on the Goverment benches. It would be out of place for him to say anything further—("Oh ! no," "Go on," and laughter)—for it would bo readily understood that the honorable member for Dunedin, Mr Vogel, had been elected as the leader of the Government. —(Cries of "No, no," "M'Dermid," " You're the leader," &c.) He had no statement of policy to make. —(Hear, hear.) There was, he thought, no liecessity for any (statement— (hoar, hear) —Seeing that the netf Government was almost the same as the old one, and their policy was sufficiently well known to the House.— (" Hear, hear," and "Too well known.") To put in order members who might wish to speak, he would move, "That Government business take precedence for tho remainder of the session." I

Mr BURNS seconded tho motion,

the Waihola (Messrs Burns and Mollison): but, the House, it was to be supposed, was to be comforted by the knowledge that it had still for its security the patriotism and the ability of the Provincial Secretary and Treasurer, of which so much had teen said. He did not know what honorable members generally thought of the Government as it now was; but, for himself, he thought that they were not bo worthy of support as they were a few day ago. There were discussions on points of order; and

Tlie SPEAKER said that he would take tho proposal as to Government business, aa an amendment on a motion to go into Committee of Supply.

Mr THOMSON said thatthe honorable member for North Harbor (Mr M'Dermid) made it one of the strongest objections to the late Government, that it did notinclude a runholder, or a representative of the pastoral interest. Now, thero was a Government on the benches, minus the member whom he (Mr Thomson) had always regarded as representingthepastoral interest (Mr Burns). Another complaint had been that the late Government was made up of country members; but he found the present Government jto be more completely tban ever composed of what might bo called Dunedin men. Thero was a good deal of important business on the paper in tho name of honorable members ; and he must, therefore, oppose the amendment.

I The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY (Mr J. Vogel) said that the absence from the Government of two of its former members, had been commented on. He regretted their absence; for he had throughout acted most cordially with those gentlemen,1: and he ventured to say that they wero two very valuable members of the Government. The honorable member for the Clutha (Mr Thomson) had more than once made it, aa he conceived, a ground of complaint, that the members of Government wero "all Dunedin men." Evidently, the honorable member meant only, that the members of tho Government resided in Dunedin; and he (the Secretary) thought that tho honorable member ought to be ablo to recognise that, by living in Dunedin, members of the Government gavegoodevidence of their desire to attend to their duties. As to the Secretary for Land and Works (Mr Duncan), he thought that it was generally recognised as exceedingly desirable that that honorablo member should be a member of the Government. And, certainly, the honorable member for the Taieri (Mr Reid) should not try to be facetious about the presence of the honorable member in tho Government; for, when the honorable member for the Taieri wanted to form a Government, the first thing he did was to rush to the honorablo member (Mr Duncan) and ask him to become a member of the contemplated Government. If it waa put on tho lowest ground, and it was said "The Secretary for Land aad Works is now in the Government to please the honorable member for the Taieri," what would that honorable member then say ? Taking all the members of the now Government, there was not one of them who had not been asked by tho Opposition to join a Government; and, more generally, it might be s*id that during the session, every member of the Government sido had been so asked.

Mr REID must deny the statement. Only two members for Dunedin, Messrs Duncan and Haggitt, had been applied to by himself : and he saw but two other .members on the Government side of the House, who, as he believed, had been spoken to on tho subject of joining a Government.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY continued his remarks at some length. He repudiated the idea that there had been anything like a trick in bringing forward what was now the amendment. The proposal had been on the Notice Paper for some days, in his name ; and the honorable member forthe Taieri, wliile in oflice, had adopted it. It could net bo borne that, by. a continuation of really meaningless proceedings, the time of members should be wasted, and the business of the country be stopped. Mr SHEPHERD opposed tho amendment. The position of members in the House showed that the struggle now was between the outlying districts and Pro-vincial-Centralism. The change in the Government had been anything but a satisfactory one ; and the House ought not, by passing the amendment, to shelve important motions, including one, standing in his name, for a dissolution of the Council.

Mr REID (after a pause) said he . thought the Government were going a , littlo too far. Their leader had stated that . ho thought it not necessary to make a ; statement of policy ; and on the motion for going into Committee of Supply, which was a Government question, the leader of tho Government proposed an amendment. What sort of conduct was '■ that, for men who had undertaken to carry on the business of the country 1 I£ tlie Government desired to carry on the business of tho country, they had better mako the attempt in a fair way. Such tricks as this, to defeat members who desired to bring forward motions respecting their districts, or motions as to the Government policy, would not be submitted ''fo. The members of the Government Should certainly tell tho House, why they had had the boldness to come down as they did. Defeated less than a week ago, when the House was full, they had come back to oflice, certainly not improved. Even the honorable member for North Harbor (Mr M'Dermid) could not have the presumption to think that lie changed the Government much, or that he could influence decisions come to in the Executive. Repeating the question put at the last sitting by tlie now Provincial Secretary, he (Mr Reid) would ask, "What 13 meant to be done with the empty chair on the Government benches V After what the now Secretary for Land and Works had said at the previous sitting, as to not again taking office, except to prevent a deadlock, tlie House ought to know whether that honorable member meant to remain in oflice, or whether he was simply filling the seat until somebody, who was to be rewarded like the honor-' able member for North Harbor, was ready to take it. The Government had lost the honorable members for the Taieri and

Mr Mitchell and Mr Muir opposed tho amendment.

Mr TURNBULL meant to support the amendment; but he should be averse to tho effect of carrying tho motion being pushed to an extreme. If the members on the other side would allow evenings to be spent in discussing tho Estimates, it would only be fair that afternoons should be devoted to important motions on the paper, and to others which might bo put there.

Mr HAUGHTON said he found that tho Provincial Secretary had, ataprevious sitting, talked about his (Mr Haughton) having tie late Government in his hands as puppets. Well, honorable members on his side knew what truth there was in that; but he could say tliat he had worked very cordially with members on Ms side, and that he hoped to continue so to work, until they had destroyed the faction now represented on the Government benches. A cant phrase with tho Provincial Secretary was "bringing Provincial institutions into contempt," and the Provincial Secretary had charged him (Mr Haughton) with acting with that object and eflect. Well, the Assembly would Boon be in session. Then, the Provincial Secretary would take his seat in another place, where he would not have such a "following," as he had here, and where the truth wonld be told to the Provincial Secretary, in an indisputable way. Then let the country judge who desired to " bring Provincial institutions into contempt." He (Mr Haughton) was content to abide the verdict.. i

After further discussion.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that the Government pledged themselves, if the amendmentwas passed, not to make any attempt to preclude the briiiging on of any business on the paper, or to. shut out ajiythingthat should fairly ibe brought before the Housed -The proposal contained in the amendment waa

usually made to prevent an undue lengthening of the session. The amendment was put, and was carried, there voting— Ayes, 16: Messrs Burns, Duncan, France, Fraser, Haggitt, Hughes, Slain, M'Dermid, Mollison, Robertson, Seaton, Shand, Sibbald, Tayler, Turnbull, Vogel. Noes, 14 : Messrs Barr, Clark, Green, Haughton, Hay, Henderson, Hutcheson, Mitchell, Mosley, Muir, Murray, Reid, Shepherd, Thomson. PKOrOSED DISSOLUTION-. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved, " That this House do now resolve itself into Committee of Supply." Mr SHEPHERD (after several interruptions on points of order and on a claim of precederce) moved, as an amendment, "That it is both expedient and desirable tliat this Provincial Council should be dissolved, so that new elections may take place about tho first day of September next It is therefore expedient that an Address be forwarded to His Honor the Superintendent, i>raying that he would agree with the abovo resolution, and tliat ho would request His Excellency the Governor to give it practical effect, in accordance with clause 13 of the Constitution Act." He said that it would not be necessary to give many reasons why the amendment should be agreed to, as reasons had already been given by members on both sides of the House ; and if the pledges made to support tho resolution wero fulfilled, it would be carried by a large majority. It was well known, that parties wero so equally balanced, that upon most important questions the decision rested upon the casting vote of the Speaker, and for that reason alone, there should be a dissolution. It wa3 impossible to conduct the business of tho House with such a state of things. There was, no doubt, strong difference of opinion existed upon one of tho most important matters, the administration of the Waste Lands Act; and it would be for the interest of the Province, if it was appealed to. He felt convinced, that the motion was ono which would meet with general approval. Whilo Mr Shepherd was addressing the House, some points of order were raised ; and while thoy" were being discussed, many members left the House. The attention of the Speaker was twice called to the state of the House ; but on each occasion there waa found to bo a quorum. Mr REID seconded tbe amendment.

Mr MITCHELL intended to support the amendment. Somo of the most important motions had been carried by the casting vote of the Speaker, and it waa impossible to carry on the business satisfactorily.

Mr MOSLEY thought that there wpro very weighty reasons why the amendment should be carried. Tho administration of tho Land Laws was of the utmost importance to the prosperity of tho country, and upon the questions concerning that administration there waa an equal division of party. On the ono side there wero almost tho whole of the country members, men who, it must be allowed, were best acquainted with the wants of the Province, and the best means of opening up the land for settlement. On tho other side, there were town members rushinglandinto the market, and by selling small blocks here and there, closing up, for all practical, purposes, largo tracts of country. There was, virtually, a deadlock in tho business of tho Council, and the only remedy would be a dissolution.

Mr HAUGHTON^thought that, in the present position of; parties; there could hardly bo tWo opinions as to the desirability of a dissolution. It was most unfortunate that the Constitution was so inflexible, and that there wero so many difficulties in the way. It was no doubt a hardship that the Superintendent could not dissolve the Council, without dissolving himself. If it was decided that there should be Provincial In-stitntiona-'—and', ho would not say there should not be —if it was decided that there should be Provincial Government, either by the present mode or by Local Boards, he thought there should be a littlo elasticity, and that the Superintendent should have powor to dissolve the Council without himself appealing to the country. But in this instance there wss a necessity for dissolution. There were two parties equally divided, and the Government had not a working majority. He was not going to say, which party would find itself in the right ; but he knew that the whole of the country press were with tho sido with whicb be was identified, and he for ono was quite prepared to abide tlie issue. He thought, from the general tone and feeling expressed, that tho people desired and expected a dissolution, and the Council should look beyond personal interest-! If the Provincial Socretary would say that he was prepared to support a recommendation for dissolution he would withdraw opposition, and he believed tlio business of tho session could be satisfactorily proceeded with.

Tho PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the question was one of great difficulty, because it affected hot only the Council, but the Superintendent. If he was asked his own private opinion, ho would say that he was not opposed to a dissolution, and, if he was only a private member, bo wonld not give it a strong opposition. Tho request had been made before, and the Superintendent had refused. Major Richardson had been very indignant, and in hia refusal had said that the decision sHonld hi>ve been arrived at in Committee of the whole Honse — the only true field where the sense of the House could bo obtained. All Superintendents held a strong opinion as to their constitutional right to have a voice in the matter. He would ask the members to remember that the dissolution was not asked for npon any great question, but only for the purpose of getting better men in the Council. The dissolution would interfere with the performance of the duties of .-members of the Assembly, and no doubt that was one of the motives for which the amendment had been made. It should be remembered that it was the concurrent recommendation of the Council ar.d the Superintendent, by which the General Government,acted ; and though be believed it had been stated that certain members of the Opposition had great influence with the Government, ho believed that the Hon. Mr Stafford wonld consider a concurrent recommendation necessary. Mr REID denied that any such impreaaion had been held out. The Em-

cils, then, the sooner those Councils wero done away with tho better. If thero was to bo a dissolution, let thero be no false

issue. Some members hail tried to raise a question letween the squatters and other classes : tliere was no Biuh question. — (Hear, hear.) The only issue really raised was, which party in tho Houso should havo the administration of tho Land Act ; and he had supported tho Government, because he believed they desired to carry out a liberal Land Policy.—(Hear, hear," and " No, no.") That was his belief, and upon it ho liad acted. The squatters were not desirous of kooping tho lands shut up ; and any " cry" that they had such a desire would not ba accepted by the country.. Mr MUIR agreed that the state of parties during this session left no other course open but a dissolution. Ho denied tbat the Government wero justified in charging that there had been a factious Opposition ; thero had been nothing of the sort. For himself, ho was not returned

to support the policy of any man ; and he had throughout the session voted indopendently, as he thought best for tho interests of the Province. Ho had no fear as to bcing^e-elecrfcd When he was elected, ho was 150 miles from his constituents; and it was evident that some members of the Government, and others would not dare to he 150 yards from their constitucnts when the next election came on. Tlio SECRETARY for LAND and WORKS would support the motion. He reviewed the discussions on tho Land Policy. Ho declared that as to the deduration of Hundreds, the only difterence between the Government and the Opposition was this—The Government said, "Let there be inquiry, so as to show where Hundreds are needed," while tho Opposition said, "We want Hundreds in certain districts', and we do not want inquiry." He admitted that the evidence before the Wakatip Runs Committee had caused him to change his opinion tbat those runs should be sold; and if the result of Committee inquiries was not to bo to help members to form correct opinions,' thoroughly based on facts, Committees were of no good whatever. M* HUTCHESON held that there wa,, agreat difference between he Opwwlion, as it had been called, but ' 1*« ™««I»nJcut members" « they should bo called, and the Government on the Hundwda ffX 1 °ne, Ban il?)\JZll tZ 00,000 acres should bo declared into Hundreds this session; the otaerhad only, on bemgforced, consented to declare some 45,000» acres That wou ; noa policy for tho benefit of working men, who, if they came here, would be unable to eet any land unless Hundreds wero io get x^ixtx aeciarea. ■„,,.-,. , ~ v Mr MAIN called attention to the di* cursive character of the debate. Thero were members who wished to speak on te question before the Conned, winch the honorable member for Oamaru Country (Mr Hutcheson) was not doing. Mr HUTCHESON J™*™>f Ito.refer to remarks (made during «»« ™^> *» to Bush Reserves ; but he.wasseveral times mtorrupted and jas "^g SSft JKfC* "-& tSS Klkof loss to the Superintendent by Sim? to the country, he^Mr Hutcheson) Sd undertake, J>d he was sure every member of the Opposition would join him, to raise as ranch money as would save tlio Superintendent from loss-(nb, no>-if members on the other side would not undertake to do so themselves. Mr HENDERSON supported tbo motion. Tbo CouncU had been seven weeks in session, and all the business yot done mi<dit easily have been dono in twelve or "fourteen days. There was so even a division between parties, on certain important questions, that it was evident tho business could not bo carried on ; and members had road© the <3owneil a moving spedacle to iba j.ubliu alius Government

vincial Secretary had said that dissolution had been asked for on no great question, and, of course, he considered that the members of the Council could not come to a conclusion as to what a great question was. There was a great question ; and parties were so evenly balanced that there was a deadlock. Tlie Oppositionhadbeen twitted with having stopped the business of the country, s?t ™d2 he i°l arge* ,™ i 0 Govei? mont had commenced by sending every impor£«^J^S^2TftCe?'CaT,f dela? J had not accepted a vote of want of conndence, and had, by talking against time, obstructed tho business. The memI era ofthe Opposition held opinions which thoy behoved to be right, and he considered that they would bo traitors if thoy did not continue to advocate those principles ; and they were perfectly justified in taking all legitimato modes' to carry out thoir \dews. It had been said that if tliere was a new election few of the members of the Opposition would be returned, and that he himself would not again obtain a seat He would liko a seat in thi Council to be sii object of ambition, of honor; but he thought that tho proceedings of thb and last session would not induce to that. He was not afraid to go bark to his constituents; and if he was not elected, he would consider it no disgrace. Another reason for a dissolution • was that the last election took place at a timo of great excitement, and now the public had cooled down and could think, He hoped that if a now Council was elected, it would be one of which any gentleman would consider it an honor to form part. Mr SHEPHERD, by the permission of the House, substituted, in tho motion, "December," for " September." -Mr FRASER meant to give tho motion hearty support, especially since the modification, which he (Mr Fraser) had meant to propose as an amendment. He felt that there was no other solution for the difficulty than the course now recommended ; and ho regretted that tho proposal was not mado ,-arlier in the souion. When elected, he never expected to witness such scenes ati had token place in tho Council ; and if he thought that there were to be like scenes another session, with tho same members, be would be inclined to resign his seat. He would support Provincial institutions so long as they wero conducted in a creditable way ; but if such wranglings aa had ocenrred this session wero to become sharacteristio of Provincial Conn-

had not the confidence of the Council. It was said that tho Superintendent would not consent, though a a majority of the Council asked for a dissolution; but ho believed tliat the Superintendent had the interests of the Province at heart too much, to bo tho cause of keeping tho present Council together, wrangling, until it expired by efilux of time, some three years hence. Mr HAY would support tho motion, in order tj!at th<sre m s t bo {to the country m the Wa^ important ques tion, "What shnll be tho Land p o ii cy of tho Provijlco r > nr-tittt>xto ,t . , T . Mr wotiid vote for tho motion, • ™°™d b t c ™ ev«r? respect better that, u,ateaf « «»e Council continuing to the Policy, the den B?° uld be *eft *° *he constituen- '*& U™ «>nat»t«onts know his opi- ?'™ s ? n .th, c ,L. aml Qu«mon, years beforo £"*' el t cc*ed lu 1 m; and ¥ was not afraid to»eet gio electors again. He believed £*' «J? Superintendent wwild n „t object *? .* dissolution ; but if His Honor did ohicc\ lt would «f uredly le on political g™", nds ' and not.J n W. ">n*°™ re- £ onal .S™'™l*; He believed that tlio Superintendent would be elected again, with the concurrence and aid of the very »»en, wl'°»■<»' opposed.his first election, *»£ *» had been a good Superintendent, lctJ*' ho would «ay to the contrary, Mr BARR supported the motion, Mr FRANCE thought honorable members had forgotten ono thing—tho great expense which a general election would bo to tho country. But it seemed tho motion Avas to bo passed ; and when that had been done, he hoped tho Opposition would agree to pass tho Estimates, so v! a* I»"w,c works might bo proceeded with, instead of there being a stoppage of S, l f m» fl and ~? rcat PubHc inconvenience, J. ha <>PP°»t«>n were responsible for all ««> delay of business and consequent no)~and they might well f° ii{?ml\t° a"«™r to their constituents what they had done. Ho would not P'^p hinwolf oa io how ho wonld vote ; , J? thought the time for dissolution s]l2?l1*I,'??? T I r a! OP thnn wns named' Mf TURN LULL meant to support the motion. Tho question with him was not wither , t w fls possible to get better men ma■ "cw Council; but whether it was possible to get a larger number of men holding similar views, so that business miß*\ bo f*irb' proceeded with. Ho wcnld vote f..r the motion on another groim": it would afford bim an opportunity of retiring into private life, which •»'was very anxious to do.

No member rising, except Mr Shepherd, the Speaker proceeded to put the amendment.

Mr SHEPHERD claimed tho right to reply. Tho SPEAKER: Tho honorablo member has no such right; ho moved an amendment. Mr SHEPHERD persisted, but was called to order. The Speaker proceeded in putting tho motion; and declared "Tho Ayes havo it." [There was not audible, anything liko a "No;" and there were but 10 or 12 members in tho House.] Mr REID called for a division. It was a pity that such a motion should be so passed. The SPEAKER : The honorable member clid not give his voice in the negative ; therefore, ho cannot call for a division. There was not a single negative voice. Mr yMITCHELL: I said "No," although it was not said very loud.

The SPEAKER: I believe tbat the honorablo member did not give his voice in the negative, until I liad declared « The ayes have it." Mr En> BTlbmitted that thero waß an mlhorii ; n M for the prapoß ition thftt he £ M fa , m * d to fo/^ division, althongh ho did not give hi „ voico in th £ negat £ e . H o said, "The Noes have it," immediately Mr Speaker declared, "The Ayes have it." ! There were quotations from May, and discussion. The SPEAKER rn ] ed that, thero not h .^ been a X()im - n tho n £ ati no divisi * n conld be called for. _, ~.,„„ T . ~ ~ Mr MUIR: In a s.milar case, recently, %*> y°n ™*J oa wouM J* 3 &™]ed, £* % c g0" 8*- Will yon now be guided by tlio House, f> ether « nofc thero shall bo a dlJL'"°"'-,-.„ „. - , T , The SPEAKER: Certainly. I have ruled ; but the Houso can decide against my ruling. The question was put, that a division be taken, and tho Speakerdeclared, The Ayes havo it. Tho bolls were rung, and the doors ii(m t Mr JMd ncg Jti vo , and declared as against | t „ Th v „ Ad \ VJ - sion ' wnat(akon , and there votedM B B Ckrk Duncan, Franco, Fraser, *reen, Haggitt ; , Henderson, Hutcheson, Mi£ J> , Murray, Seaton, Shepherd, mu ft ' n Vrcel ~°%*Xsrs Muir and Reid. ' p M H &imt MrSib . ~ ' J jj __._ ~ ~ , . ~ Mr REID said tbat members would know that he had throughout supported J^o^^ He J^hed to explain, fc h his vote with the "Noes," h amendment, J™J ° result of tho debate JJg ? onrecord on tho journals of the House j> mms&Uk^t ho had acted from precisely iho same reasons as the honorP f<jr TaiQrf (Mr Roid) The amendment was adopted. „Mr BURN S m o^^SSf he could have intended. He had caused ' it to be recorded that a clear majority of the House had not voted m favor ofa. dissolution of the Council. "° (M* Burns) regretted this ; for the fact of then* . not being a majority, might tie used a» a reason for not granting a dissolution, The motion was seconded. The PROVINCIAL SECPJ£i'ARY wished to rrcmind the honorablo. member for the Taieri, that if he had not called for a division, it would havo beon assnmed thafc tue amendment was earned ' when the requisite majority of tue Conned waa present to give it ft h proper effect, ( Mr REID thought thnt if tho Secretary ' wa« sincere, he would havo called attenturn \q tin* effect «.f» Qinsiop t bgDortj qnft

was taken. Ho (Mr Reid) had desired a, postponement, but member after member dropped oil*. Under tho circumstances, ho waa quite satisfied with what he had done.

Mr SHEPHERD commenced to speak. Several members departed ; attention, was called to the state of tho House ; and there was a " count out"

The House was, at fii-o minutes before one o clock, adjourned until two o'clock, on Monday.