PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 1051, 3 May 1865, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesdat, May 2m>. The Sfeakxb took the chair at two o'clock.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER laid on the table a letter from the Colonial Secretary to his Honor the Superintendent, on the subject of security for provincial loans.

THE (I.ATE) CITY COMMISSIONERS,

Mr CLAPCOTT asked the Government, " If any serious difference of opinion has arisen between the Executive and the City Commissioners, by which the interests of the public have been prejudiced, as stated by the City Commissioners, and if so, what ? Also, whether the Government have shewn hesitancy in dealing with the Commissioners, and if so, why ?" He did so in consequence of having read the correspondence which had passed between the Government and the City Commissioners. He read an extract from one of the letters of the Commissioners, in which they stated that hesitation had been displayed by the Government iti dealing with them.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY was not aware of any difference of opinion having arisen between the Commissioners and the Government; no difference which should have led to the resignation of the Commissioners. As to whether the Government had shown hesitancy in dealing with the Commissioners, —they asked authority from the Government to do certain acts, and the Government asked then to suspend action, so far as they were concerned, for a time; but the Commissioners could have acted upon their own responsibility until the Government could fully ascertain what authority there was for the action proposed. The Government took the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor, which did not seem to satisfy them, that the authority upon # which they acted was so conclusive and complete as to allow the Government to answer the Commissioners at once. Probably the Commissioners took that delay as hesitancy, and resigned. The Government were under the necessity of appointing another Commission, which would be done forthwith.

THE OFFICER IN CHAHGK OF TAIAEOA

UKAI) I-IGHTHOUSi;

Mr JIACANDREW moved—" That with reference to the transfer of the control over the lighthouse at Taiaroa Head, from the Provincial to the General Government, this Council is of opinion that the officer heretofore in charge of the lighthouse ought to have been continued in such charge, and that a respectful address be transmitted to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting that he may be pleased to communicate with the General Government, with a view to remedying the injustice which has been done to the officer in question."

Mr MOLLIS9N seconded the motion

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY was glad this motion had been brought before the House, as it gave him the opportunity of stating that the Government entirety coincided in the opinion expressed in it, and were quite prepared, if the Council desired it, to transmit a letter to the General Government, requesting that the official who so long discharged hi 3 duties at the Taiaroa Head Lighthouse to the satisfaction of the Provincial Government, should be continued in his position.

Mr J. CARGILL thought there must be a mistake somewhere. This matter was brought by the late Government before the General Government, and an arrangement entered into whereby the officer referred to should be continued in his appointment. lie was not aware that this arrangement had been disturbed ; and if it had, the blame lay somewhere intermediate between the Provincial and General Governments.

On the suggestion of the Provincial Treasurer, Mr MACANDREW altered the words in his motion from " injustice which has been done" to "injustice which may have been done;"

The motion as amended was adopted .MESSAGE NO. C.

A message was received from His Honor the Superintendent, forwarding copies of minutes of the Executive Council with reference to the petition of C. R. Swyer, for compensation for loss of office, and correspondence on that subject.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY pave notice to move consideration of this Message at the next sitting.

BESOI.UTIONS OX THE J,ANI> QUESTION

On the motion of the PROVINCIAL SECRETARY, the House went into Committee to consider the Government on the Land Question.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said he would offer a few genera! remarks on the whole of the resolutions, and would then move them clause by clause. It would be in the recollection of honorable members that a fortnight ago a Bill, which had been prepared by the late Government, was circulated unofficially to members of the House. The Government bad resolved not to adopt the Bill prepared by their predecessors, and they thought that rather than prepare a Bill for the General Assembly, it would be better to pass a series of resolutions through the Council, in order to found upon them a Bill for the General Assembly. The resolutions prepared by the present Government differed from the Bill which was prepared, and would have been v proposed by the previous Government. It v was scarcely necessary .'for him to point out at any length the differences he had referred to, but he would mention a few of them. The Bill of the late Government dealt with runs at once, and proposed ..taking action on the present licenses. The resolutions of the present Government j proposed to leave the licenses of runs as ' they at present stood, and took no action until they fell in. It would be in the recollection of honorable members that la?t session n Message was sent down by his Horor the Superintendent, proposing to deal with the pastoral lands of the Province, and giving details as to quantities of land which fell in, and the periods when they did so. Very few acres fell in before 1868, but in that year 643,000 acres fell * in, and in subsequent years very consi-

derable quantities. The present Government thought it would be as well to let these leases fall in before taking any further action in reference to them, and any Bill now passed would be made not to come into operation until 1868, when a large number of the licenses fell in. The Bill prepared by the latte Government provided that no tax should be levied until the land had been purchased four years, and after that period, that the tax should only continue for five years, whether the improvements were made or not. The present Government preferred continuing the system under the Waste Lands Act of 1863, and levying the tax until the improvements were made. The Bill of the late Government proposed doing away with Hundreds altogether, and permitting free selections throughout the whole Province. The present Government thought it better to continue the system of Hundreds, declaring land into Hundreds as soon as it was wanted, and whenever population and trade reached the districts so that land would sell at its fair value. They also thought it advisable, as far as possible, to support and sustain the present land regulations, as they believed thas the continual altering of the land system interfered to a very large extent with the prosperity and settlement of the country. The question of what should be done with the runs when they fell in, could be discussed when they came to the clauses bearing upon them. After some further explanations, he said he did not know her. r the Committee "would receive these resolutions, but he hoped they would receive a full and fair consideration; and that the result of the debate would be a decision which would act the Land Question at rest for many years to come. In reference to the action to be taken by the Government on these resolutions, he would say that they did not take their B*~nd upon them, but; left them an open question. Should the Committee reject the resolutions altogether, and accept or prefer a set of counter resolutions which ran gin opposition to these now proposed, it would be the duty of the Government to consider the matter ; but if the Committee were prepared to enter upon the debate on these resolutions, and alter or vary them as they saw fit, the Government would consider it an open question, and would ask and take the advice of the Committee in the matter. He moved the first resolution as follows :—" That it is advisable to consolidate the various Land Acts and Regulations affecting the Province of Otago, with a view to the removal of practical difficulties in their administration."

Mr JOHN CARGILL thought that before passing any of these resolutions the debate should be taken on the first, which involved the principle contained in the whole. He did believe it was most advisable to consolidate the various Land Acts and Regulations of the Province, but he did not believe that the Head of the Executive never intended to do anything of the kind, but intended simply to leave them as they were. He thought the people generally wished a cha»"je in the present system. He believed he spoke the sentiments of a large portion of the community when he said that the present regulations were cumbrous in the extreme, tended to deter the purchase of land, and were as bad as anything that could be adopted. Pie did not think it advisable that the system of Hundreds should be exLtended, and he thought the present bounjdaries of the Hundreds should not be 'altered, as he believed there was more land 'open in the present Hundreds than was wanted for settlement. There was this great difference between the propositions of the late Government'and those now proposed, that the late Government contemplated raising an immediate revenue from the pastoral lands of the Province. He presumed the present Government saw its way to do without a revenue of this kind ; but be was of opinion that if an immediate revenue of this kitid could be raised it would be conferring a great benefit upon the whole Province.

Mr STREET believed that the present Land Regulations were giving great dissatisfaction throughout the whole Province. He moved as an amendment, " That the present Land Regulations, having been found cumbrous and difficult to work, causing the purchase ] of land to be surrounded with many [impediments, it is, therefore, desirable to simplify the same by raising the price of land to 30s per acre, without any conditions of purchase, or {[restrictions whatever."

Mr VOGEL thought that^ sufficient reasons had not been shown for entirely doing away with the Bill passed twelve months ago. Nothing could be more injurious to the credit of the Province than to be constantly altering the Land Act. He thought the position to be taken up by the Council should be that it would not bind itself for some years in advance as to what it would do with the runs when they fell in, as circumstances might occur in the interval to demand an alteration. The Council eught to be careful in this matter, as it might be found that they had been consulting the interests of only a small section, and overlooking the interests of the great majority of the runholders. He thought it was not right to push the land into the market as had been clone. He was satisfied that the position of the Province did not require this forcing of the land into the irrtrket. The time had arrived when the Province ought to live within its ordinary revenue, and when the money raised from the land should be spent in improvements which would materially enhance the value of all the land throughout the Province.

Mr WALKER urged that attention should for the present be concentrated on what was the essential question before the Committee—keeping the price at Ll an acre, with a 2s tax, or increasing the price and doing away with the tax. As he understood, the Council, on a previous occasion, after a full discussion of the subject, resolved that the most advisable course was to take the tax as a substitute for increased price—(hear, hear) —that they considered Ll an acre to be below the price, but that to encourage those to settle who would really cultivate, and so contribute in the most direct manner to the prosperity of the conntry there should be only

a conditional-tax, as representing the ccond LI which was the fair value of the and. He considered that the Regulations as to the tax^ were a premium to cultivators ; and that if there was a misconception as to those Regulations leading to an opposite belief, it would be easy to explain them, so as to remove the misconception, which course would be far more advantageous than giving up the tax.

Major RICHARDSON was surprised at the recantation by the honorable member for the North Harbor, of all the views which had guided him hitherto in dealing with the question of the Hundreds, of which system, he (Major Richardson) had | always understood the honorable member; to be an advocate. f

Mr CARGILL: But not of the abuse? of it. -I

Major RICHARDSON: To what particular, abuse does the honorable member refer?

Mr GARGILL: To the excessive supply,

Major RICHARDSON: In that respect they might be at one; for he had always opposed throwing large quantities of land into the market, on the ground that such a course was injurious to the pastoral tenants, without being advantageous to agriculturists. It could only lead to the best land being sold at too low a rate, from which it must result that immigrants would be disappointed, and the Provincial revenue would suffer seriously. He held that if there wa« any intention on the pirt of the administrative and executive bodies, steadily, earnestly, and honestly to carry them out, the existing Regulations as to price and tax were the very best for the country yetdevised. He thought this, because, at 30s an acre, the best land would soon be taken up, and there would be few who would buy the inferior lands; and because the present arrangement was a great inducement to the intending immigrant. It said to him, "The price of land is £2 an acre; but if you pay XI down, you shall have the other, paying on it ten per cent a-year, until you have spent 40s an acre in improvements. If you can make those improvements in two years, you get your land at £1 4s an acre, and so on in proportion. It should never be forgotten that the object sought was not the sale of the land, nor the revenue received, but the getting into the country a happy, contented, and thriving population, which would afford apermanent source of revenue to the country.

Mr STREET was sure that the tax was a hindrance to the small purchaser; and he believed it would cost more than its amount for collection. He never heard of more than a very few large purchasers who did not intend to improve the land; and he knew that there was very little speculation in land just now.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER saw in the last remark of the honorable member confirmation of his own belief in the wisdom of the present Regulations. Large purchases might throw large sums into the Treasury; but they did not necessarily imply settlement of the country. It was quite possible, under such circumstances, to have a rich Government and a poor country. Such was the case, while the Government were working upon the expected results of the sale of debentures; and such he knew to be very much the case in Canterbury under Regulations analogous to those which would be established here by the amendment of the honorable member for the North Harbor. He believed that a great deal of the outcry about the existing Regulations had arisen simply from the notion that the Province was insolvent, and would gladly resort to any means of dealing with the land which would bring a large present revenue. He was satisfied that the House would show that there was no intention of acting in any such a manner.

Mr VOGEL considered that it was a waste of time to discuss the amendment. The Assembly would never consent to it; for that body had decided, in the case of Otago and Southland, that the price of land should be £2 without a tax, or £1 with a tax. If the Committee should prove to be in favor of 403 an acre, it would be well to introduce a clause enabling the Council to vote sums from time to time, to be returned in the shape of a bonus to those who had completed the stipulated improvements.

Mr BRODIE was sure that the Assembly would allow, as it had allowed, the Land Regulations of each Province to be very much what the representatives of each agreed to ask that they should be. The present regulations had never yet been allowed a fair chance, because they struck at the root of speculation.

Captain MACKENZIE did not believe that the Regulations could be altered with advantage.

Mr ADAM would give his unqualified support to the amendment, although he thought the price should be XI an acre instead of 30a, and that the Council would not be going too far if it reduced the price again to 10s, a"s it used to be. All the complaints he had heard of the tax, came from small purchasers; for it was most hard on them that at the end of the first half year after purchase, they should be called on to pay atax of Is an acre.

Major RICHARDSON: But they have borrowed £1 an acre from the Government out of which to pay it. '

Mr ADAM was satisfied that XI an acre was a sufficient total price, and that it would be well if all the unsold land could be so got rid of to-morrow, and the proceeds could be applied to buying back the Loans which were costing the Province so much.

Major RICHARDSON": Will the honorable member for Tokomairiro allow me to purchase all his land at £1 an acre, subject to the tax ?—(Laughter.) If so, I shall be prepared to make an immediate purchase. Mr ADAM: The honorable member would have to give me three or four timea as much —(laughter); for 10s when I bought, was worth as much aa 50s. now.

Mr RENNIE thought it was not right to speak of a tax. It was, instead, a good system of deferred payments. The amendment of Mr Street was put, and there voted.

Ayes, 8: Messrs Adam, Clapcott, J,

Cargill, Clark, Gleeson, Miller, Mollison, Street.

Noes, 21: Messrs Bastings, Blair, Brodie, Burns, Dick, Dyer, Hughes, Kilgour, Macandrew, Macpherson, Mackenzie, Morris, Moss, Paterson, Richardson, Reid, Rennie, Reynolds, Stevenson, Thomson, Walker.

The amendment was negatived.

Mr JOHN CARGILL moved ns an amendment, to substitute the Land Regulations drafted by the late Government, and circulated unofficially. By these Regulations, the present Hundreds would remain intact; but, instead of fresh ones being proclaimed, a system of free selection over the Province would be brought about.

Major RICHARDSON wished the Committee to remember that the grand, distinctive difference been the two proposals, was—Hundreds.

After a short discussion, the amendment was negatived without a division, and the first resolution of the Government was put and carried. .

No. 2 was amended by the Provincial Secretary, and agreed to as follows :— " That, with the exception of the clause as to existing rights, the Land Sales and Leases Ordinance be not incorporated in the Consolidated Act."

No. 3 was adopted as read :—" That it is advisable to continue the present system of Hundreds.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved No. 4:—

Tbat twelve months prior to each of the now existing licenses of the various runs falling In it is de3irable to offer a renewal of the license to the then occupier subject to the following conditions :—

Ist. That an Assessor or Assessors, who shall be appointed by the Superintendent and approved of by the Provincial Council, shall estimate the carrying capacity oi the run. 2ad. Thar a rate of per head fdl? sheep, and per head for cattle, be annually levied on the entire quantity of stock that the ran is estimated capable of carrying.

3rd. That the leases be granted for sucli Wriods ai may be determined by the aste Lnnd Board, not [In BDy case 11 exceed ten years. The Government felt that this was a sul * ject which would naturally give rise to a considerable difference of opinion. It was believed that these proposals would give to tbe present licensees the advantage to which they were entitled, and would result in altogether the most advantageous arrangement for the country. In 18GG, only some 6000 acrea would fall in ; but in 18G8, there should be 643,000 acres to be dealt with ; and as the Regulations would have to be sent home for the approval of the Imperial Government, and the option was to be given to th<j present holders twelve months before the leases fell in, there would not be too much time for completing the arrangements. It might be well to discuss the proposal clause by clause.

Mr BURNS moved an amendment, de-' daring that the leases should be put up to auction, and stating certain conditions. He considered that at present there was a monopoly ; and that the public ought 10 have a chance of getting at some ot the runs.—[A Voice—Do you want one ? J He might have had one long ago, if he wished it. There were many of the runs at present understocked or unstocked. There were few persons who could not be acted upon ; and the proposed Government assessor might get into squatters' houses, and might be led to put a,smaller value on their runs than he would otherwise do.

The House adjourned, and resumed again at seven o'clock.

Mr REYNOLDS contended that what was proposed by the Government was simply just. The Government had no right to take advantage of its pastoral tenants, any more than a private landlord had so to deal with his tenants; and it would be very hard if. men could not be found as assessors who, selected by the Superintendent, and approved of by the Council, would do their duty honestly. The mover of the amendment spoke of runs being understocked; he overlooked the fact that licensees, under the proposed Regulations, would have to pay per head for what their respective stations would fairly carry, whatever amount of stock nrght be on them. Captain MACKENZIE was obliged to the honorable member for the Taieri (Mr * Burns) for informing the House that he had no experience as to stocking a run, and knew nothing of the subject. The proposal to let the runs by auction was more than absurd. People might come forward out of envy or in spite, and wholly guiltless of any intention to carry on the station properly. Such might outbid the present holders; but what would be the benefit to the country; and who was to compensate for existing improvements. Mr JOHN CARGILL felt satisfied that, under the auction system, the Government would not get as goof! tenants for their very valuable pastoral estates, as they would under the present system. The objection that the runs were too large was very common ; but experienced men knew that large runs were always better managed than small ones, and any one could understand thai when scab occurred, room to move back the infected sheep was absolutely necessary. The history of Nelson supplied a most instructive example of the effect of small runs in spreading scab. The evil in future was likely to be that of over-stocked runs, under the proposed arrangement, rather than that of under-stocked ones. A man who had been years on a run, and made money on it, which he had ready for investment, was likely to be a better tenant, as regarded the general interests of the country, than one who had all to begin, and possibly not a thorough inclination or means for investment.

Mr MOLLISQN supported the amendment, believing that there was now an injurious monopoly, which kept men with capital from coming into the country with a view of settling. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that the Government felt that it would be most tyrannical to place a present lessee in the position of having to buy off people who would otherwise bid against him, '7»A~A■*■*■'■& ■ " "' /

knowing that he bad so many thousands of sheep, for which he must have the country. If a fair revenue could be got from them—and it ought to be got under the proposed Regulations— then the preference ought to be given to the present lessees.

Mr MORRIS hoped that the amendment would be so modified as to simply affirm the auction principle; and he would then support it, believing that that principle was essential to a fair consideration of the claims of settlers in the Province. He thought the proposal to leave the whole power of assessment in the hands of one man, was most objectionable.

Mr WALKER argued that the course proposed by the Government in dealing with its pastoral tenants, was just that which was all but invariably adopted by liberal landlords, whether private or public, in dealing with their tenants, namely, that the tenant in possession should have a renewal of his lease, if he was prepared to pay a fair rental. He could not see how any one could arrive at the conclusion that to offer such renewals, was to do an injustice to any other class in the community. The romance as to enormous profits accruing from pastoral pursuits, might be supposed not to be very operative in the present day : something more was necessary to any profit than merely " getting a piece of country'I—there must be capital to stock it. The fact was that any man with capital, and a desire for pastoral pursuits, could. go into the market on almost any day, and invest his money in a run, which he could get at a price icertainly not exceeding its fair value. |The auction s}'stem could only continue ■and aggravate the uncertainty of tenure, ■which had been the great curse of the thing hitherto.

Mr BURNS said it would simplify the question if his first paragraph was put as against that of the Government.

Mr E. B/CARGILL thought that the proposal of the Government, if it was fairly given eft'ect to, would be the best yet suggested for giving effect to what should be the simple object kept in view by the Council—how to get the best tenants for the public estate. If good tenants were not obtained, the estate could not be well managed, for the interests of the country or of the lessees—the two necessarily going together. To expose the present lessees to an auction system, would decidedly be more likely to end in getting needy and ignorant tenants, than to get men who would be able so to act as to ipreserve the value of the pastoral estate. The Government proposal would not entail these runs on the present holders and their heirs; the runs would change hand 3, and would thus no doubt maintain their value.

Major RICHARDSON held that the present holders of the runs had not a shadow of right to the option of a renewal of their leases. It might be for the benefit of the s'ute that they should have the option; and he might be inclined to assert that. lie felt that the assessor or assessors would be placed iv a most difficult and invidious position ; but as he had no better plan to suggest, he was inclined not to oppose the Government, hoping that minimum rates would hereafter be fixed.

Mr BURNS said that so long as the runs were kept closed as they were, nobody could know their value, and assessors must be had to get at it; but let the public have a chance, aud they would soon learn ar \ fix the value. It was said that the present leaseholders were good tenants. How was th it proved ? Nobody knew anything about the matter, but themselves.

Mr GLEESON opposed the amendment.

Mr STREET supported the motion, but thought there should be two arbitrators, with the assessor selected by the Government acting as umpire, if necessary.

There was further di?cu«sion, in which Messrs Rennie, Cinrk, and Thomson took part, after which the amendment of Mr Burns was put and negatived.

A number of suggestions and amend-

ments were made, none of which were put to the House."

Major RICHARDSON moved the alteration of the clause to the following effect: —"That twelve months prior to each of the now existing licenses of the various runs falling in, it is desirable t» offer a lease of the same or a part thereof, not under .'30,000 acres, to the occupier, subject to the provisions made in section a of the proclamation of Hundreds, and the following conditions."

Mr MILLER strongly objected to the amendment.

After a short discussion, the amendment was put and declared lost, when a division was called—

Ayes, 14: Messrs Blair, Brodie, Dyer, Hughes, Kilgour, Macpher3on, Mollison, Morris, Moss, Mouat, Richardson, Reid, Reynolds, and Stevenson.

Noes, 12: Messrs Burns, Clapcott, E. B. Cargill, J. Cargill, Dick, Gleeson, Macandrew, Mackenzie, Miller, Street, Vogel, and Walker.

The amendment was carried

Mr VOGEL moved a further amendment to insert after the word "conditions" the words "particulars of which are to be given when the offer is made."

This was agreed to,

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the first sub-clause—" That an Rssesaor or assessors, who shall be appointed by the Superintendent and approved of by the Provincial Council, shall estimate the carrying capacity of the run." This was no doubt in some respects an objectionable clause; but some person must do the work, and he had no doubt that the Government, with the approval of the Council, would be able to select men competent to do it. He did not see any better way of doing it than that proposed by the resolution.

Captain MACKENZIE objected to the clause. No person in Otago could go upon any ground and be able to say what amount of sheep that land was capable of carrying. It required a person who had learned by long experience to say what the laiid would carry; and it might be safely left, to the persons now occupying the runs to aay what they could carry.

Mr BRODIE thought it would be monstrous to allow the run-holder alone to cay what the carrying capabilities of his run were; and he considered it would be better to have an outside opinion than one to which the imputation of interestednesa might be attached.

Mr VOGBL thought it was not fair, either to the runholders or to the Province, that this power shoultl be placed* in, the hands of any one man. He suggested that the clause should be altered, so as to admit of arbitratioa if the runholder should be discontented with the assessment. The runholder shoultl have the opportunity of asking for a reassessment at the end of any year. As the hour was late, he suggested that progress should be reported, and the Government should reconsider the clause.

After some further discussion, Mr BRODIE moved that progress be reported.

The House resumed ; progress was reported and leave obtained to sit again this day. Several returns and reports were laid oa the table.

Mr REID moved the adjournment of the House.

Mr BIIODIE objected to the adjournment, as business coulii be proceeded with for some time longer, when nearly all the members were within the precincts of the House.

The question was put and declared carried, when a division was called. Nearly all the members left the House.

There being no quorum, The House was adjourned at half-past ten o'clock to two o'clock this day (Wednesday)