IS SOCIALISM PREFERABLE

NZ Truth, Issue 106, 29 June 1907, Page 6

IS SOCIALISM PREFERABLE

fO LIBERALISM AND TRADES^ UNIONISM?

Afl< Interesting Sunday Night Debate,

Father Ham and Robert Hogg,

s TTh'e •strictures -recently passed by Socialists m Wellington upon Trades Unionism have inspired interest "m the most unusual quarters with the ' result that the meetings m His Majesty's Theatre are well attended. On Sunday night last Socialist Robert Hogg debated with public ser- , vant Arnold the question, ."Is" Socialism preferrablc to Liberalism and Trades Unionism ?■" The challenge issued by friend; Hogg arose out . of a heated discussion a couple of Sundays previously, wlieu a horrified an;! astounded Arnold was "drawn" by the frank statement of the ■ Socialists that neither Seddon rtor Ward, nor any part of the Liberal administration of the past fifteen . years. had done any good for New Zealand, or if they had done any u;ood the tenets ol the Socialistic faith ..taught its adherents to ig- " nore any good that might have accrued from the work of THE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT. Mr Hogg was the first to take; the floor, and it is certain even if his; arguments might not have convinced the sceptical his perfervid utterances /would go a long way m that direction. Extreme earnestness always impresses. Arnold had rather a bad. time. He was m the enemy's camp, and though the tolerance of the. biased crowd was kept within bounds of courtesy, the hotheads of the party, amazed at an emphatic itanunciation of their beloved . Socialism, broke out into occasional clamour, which was promptly suppressed by a most impartial chairman, and though tliere was the personal element introduced, Arnold's remarks were hard to hear. Hogg replied m kind, and it was really hard to find any particular culprit against good^ taste. ' Hogg certainly started out with an. astounding statement when he ac- ' knowledged . that he : was."- a Trades Unionist, hut it. is presumed -4mat a man may belong to something so atrociously had that, he protests against its badness m a public place. Some Trades Unionists there were, he explained, who objectpd •to being bracketed with Liberalism, and the speaker went back a great number of years m giving the history of THE TRADES UNION MOVEMENT, v . . . Here an artificial means,/ in "the . shape of compulsory unionism, was ■adopted to keep it alive, /He was looking at trades unionism from its purely sectional aspect, and stated that m good its result had been nil. The -Arbitration Court had continually increased the wages of workers, but Mr. Tregear, of • the , Labor Department, had reported to the late Mr. Seddon that there had ■ been, a proportionate rise m the cost of living. It was, a natural law that if there were many, labourers wages would go down ; if there- were a few laborers wages would rise. Here it was useless to have the wages increased, as the capitalist held the market, and controlled the cost of living. Socialism offered an Gqwitable system. The existing warehouses, etc., m the country, were paid by unpaid wages. Henry George, the single taxer, ha,d said that capital did not maintain labour, but that the labourer: was maintained by his own labour. Nor did the capitalist find the .material of labour. He rejected Maoriland's claim for singularity for labor; legislation, as eight 'hours «a day were worked m Englancl\ '3oo years ago. At the present time cabmen of* Auckland were working 85 hoursper week, by order of the Arbitration Court. Trades Unionfsm was sdctional, -selfish and unsound, and the . organised unions cared nothing for the unskilled labourer. He condemned the theory that if there were no hlack-legs strikes must , necessarily b& successful, and showed that m the case of the strike on the Clyde the masters won because the funds of the strikers became depleted. Socialism offered a commonweal instead of an anarchical system which maintained the principle that' 'one man might beggar famot'foer. Each child m the community should have equal right of educational opportunity, and the Liberal capitalist was the same as the Tory capitalist. The advice of the late Mr. Seddon, to "keep your cradlas full* was • THE ADVICE OF THE CAPI- , TALIST, ■ who required children for the pucposes of slavery. j Stranger Arnold, m reply, started off with the remark that Socialism has been called the enemy to the bar of public v justice, and the remark occasioned some interruption. They had itaeen told at the street corners that Liberalism and Trades Unionism had served their purpose. They had been told by Socialist Cooke. of Christchurch, that Trades Unionism would' be abolished. Personally, he believed that neither Liberalism nor Trades Unionism were yet done with. Socialism was inclined to condemn anything it did not agree with. (Interruption.) When Mr. Cooke was here he remarked that it was a ■young, country, : and the worker was required to develop the country. In England there- were Socialists who wouldn't work. (Interruption.) They were always grumbling about capital. What, lie asked, would they do without capital ? (Loud laughter.) It had been claimed that labour had been captured 'by the employer through the Arbitration Court. He quoted Arbitration; Court statistics showing the miff&er of cases that had .'been brought by the different workers m the various centres.' and the extraordinary percentage that Had beensuccessful. Who, he asked, was Trades Unionism comprised of? They would tiiid that its members were hard toilers, who succeeded their forefathers m the fight for the workers. In a small country of less than a' million people 29,800 workers were receiving the benefit of the Arbitration Act from 11uj present. Liberal Govern- j ment. "You can never make a silk: purse out of a hog's ear,"- he i'Q- '

marked",- and th'e uproar; which" follow* . J ed .was terrific. He took exception; '.*" ■to Mr Hogg's evidence before the*/ Land Commission, to the effect : one way to vagrancy was through tie! cutting up of larga estates. He.accused Hogg of playing into the lianids of the land squatter., Carl' Matx* Socialist, was THE SON OF A CHRISTIAN-. jAp/ ; (Uproar.)' He had. given 'an ■ . dpinflbn ; so far hack. as 18G4 m favour, ofj a sys.tem of concord between employer, and believed tihat industrial Unipha Were necessary. In 1824 j.Wm^ Thompson, Socialist, had demanded the full product of labour foi the; labourer, and the Socialist hadjbeen v^ asleep ever since. Also there was connected with Socialism a disbelief m the idea of God, which outrageil: the 'sensibilities of a large number 61 \ people. A recent . Socialist pasi-.Jj phlet had ' declared against child Belabour, but made no .practical s sag-«f gestion, whereas the Government had established 200 labour^jj.ureaijsjp and ! employed inspectors of fac-<l* tories to go round and see that noj| child labour was employed. Thop| pamphlet already mentioned coufi^l selled revolution. (Great cheering Jrff He concluded that civilisation coukF not be maintained- on the ethics, ff savagery, which sentiment was al»^ vociferously cheered. c i Mr..-. Hogg replied" that his namaj? was Hogg, the son of Sam Hogg,j| and he couldn't help' it. Therefore," ho deprecated reference, to the im-i possibility of making a silk .purse (j^t of. a/ hog's ear. He 'once knew: a. Roman Catholic priest named Hamt who w,as a great person?.! friend' of Ms, and was .apt to remark that afr'V ■tsi\ all he was merely "cured Hogg." ■ It- "was generally, .considered that J Hjogg had scored. He had not said* triat the work of Liberalism was \ dope with, but the work of , Liber- i ahjsm was v to bamboozle the people, j Liberalism had opened up land for*, settlement- on the . hills"- and rocis of / 'Taifanaki ' and Waimarino, but had^j lefti the . „. j Affluent squatters op • ] j A •■• HAWKE'S BAY j m undisturbed possession. t Mil. Arnold also had the right of \ reply, .which he accGpted, and the (' subsequent proceedings were confined / to questions and general discussion. ! Excitement was given to this part V of _ the programme by a person dis- * guised ih beer, who - first appeared on the stage and then m the dresscircle, apd fired off irrevalcnt ' remarks atv the platform- He caused the early!) closing oi the meeting.