RAILWAY INQUIRY

New Zealand Times, Volume XLVI, Issue 10508, 9 February 1920, Page 7

RAILWAY INQUIRY

SITTINGS CONCLUDED COMPULSORY RETIREMENT AT 60 ADVOCATED. DEPARTMENT IN REPLY. SOME INTERESTING INTERLUDES.

Tho Railway- Inquiry Board —His Honour Mr Justice Stringer (chairman), Mr A. W. Mouatt (Railway Department representative), and Mr M. J. Maok (representing the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servant's) concluded its sittings on Saturday morning. Mr J. Macdonald appeared for the Railway Department. Jlr R. Hampton (president of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants) presented on 'behalf of the organisation its reasons for desiring a regulation providing that when a man has completed 40 years’ service or reached 60 years of ago and is eligible to retire and to receive at least £2oo a year superannuation, ho bo compulsorily retired. They wanted, said Mr Hampton, to consider the matter m quite an impersonal way. • Many-- or tho men concerned had given long service to tho department and many or them were personal friesds of -his own, and ho wanted to discuss the question, not from a personal point of view, but from that of principle and how it might affect the general efficiency of the railway service. In the first place, he wished to point .out that from their way of looking at the question, it appeared to them that Parliament, when it passed the Superannuation Act intended that a man should retire when ho had completed his forty years’ service, tjecauso it made provision that after he had comtplated his 40 years, so (far ns he was concerned, he conld not improve his superannuation. the INCENTIVE to remain. But the unfortunate part of the situation was that while he could not got more than two-thirds of his salary after he had served his 40 years, he could improve his superannuation prospects. For instance, if ho was m receipt o £IOOO a year and had 40 years m, he would bo entitled to two-thirds ot £IOOO to retire Upon. But if, as happened last year. Parliament increased the value of his position from LIOOU to £1250, he would he entitled, on retirement, to two-thirds, not of -“IUtJU, but of £1250. That, he thought, was the main incentive to a man to remain. in the service when ho had completed his 40 years. His society had pointed out to the Government last session that this would happen, and the, Government sai<i that it tvoulu no happen. Mr Massey eaid that only one man would benefit by the alteration* in the schedules of the Act; but he had taken just roughly the names of 1/ men with over 40 years’ service, who would have a total of £1330 added t 0 their salaries, and that would throw upon the superannuation bund an additional burden of £920 every year. It he had bad more time he could probably have dug out a few more. H was important that he should point out the Incentive to men to remain m the service under these conditions. That was tho crux of the whole Potion But it would ultimately right itself because Parliament saw that pensions or ±-<ou to £IOOO a year were really salaries, and they had limited the pensions for future contributors to £3OO a year; but they could not break the contract with the then existing contributors. His Honour: When was that? Mr Hampton: That was about eight years ago, under the Consolidated Vet - His Honour: Then the contributors prior to the Act will tahe their superannuation on tho conditions ‘previously obtaining, and ae you say that ■will work itself out. , Mr Hampton: It will take albout 30 years to work out, DANGER OF HANGING ON.

His Honour: But when they come under the £3OO limit the incentive will bo for them to hang on to their salaries. because they will only get the £300.. Mr Hampton: That strengthens our ease for compulsory retirement. Surely, ho added, a man in a responsible position should not be right down on his uppers at that time of .life, after 40 years’ service. Ho was sure that Parliament never intended that men should hang on. Ho wanted, to point out the danger of men hanging on to the detriment ot the efficiency of the service; and ho believed that tho object of superannuation was to increase tho efficiency of the service by getting tho older men to retire. The spirit and intention'of tho Act, he urged, was to enable tho department to get rid of these men without inflicting on them any hardship. In fact, men had been always coming and asking for compassionate grants and so on, and that was why tho Act was passed. Tho schedule of tho Act provided for the chief traffic manager a salary of £1250. Tho responsibility of tho position was considered 1 to be worth tho amount, and ho was-not suggesting for one moment that it was not. Tho man. who occupied tho position at present had on April Ist last year 44 years and seven months’ service, and was then entitled to retire on £733 6s 8d a year any time he liked to put his notice in. Against tho £1250 they had to put what ho was already paid, loss superannuation (about £7O , a year); so that at present he was practically filling position for £289 13s 4d a year. MARK-TIME ATTITUDE.

It seemed that when that. was all the position was worth to a man, he would adopt a mark-time attitude. He would not be carrying the same responsibility as a man not in such an independent position. Imagine the whole of the men in the railway service being in a position to claim two-thirds of their wages or salary for nothing, what would be the general effect on the service? Ho thought it must develop a mark-time attitude. The next man exceeded the chief traffic manager in years of service. He was shown as having 46 years and 10 months. lie was the assistant traffic manager for the Dominion. The assistant’s salary was £BOO a year. The man now occupying the position could put his notice in at any minute, and retire on £633 6s Bd. Bo that if they took his superannuation payment at £6O, he was filling an £BOO position for £2lO 13s 4d. Take another instance, that of the controller of stores for Now Zealand. His posi-

tion was valued at' £7OO a rear, and ho could retire on £466 13s 4d. Deduct £49 superannuation, and it would bo seen that he teas actually filling a £7OO position for an actual gain of £IBO Gs Bd. Those wore just two cr three instances in connection with the head office. If they went out into the districts (they would find the same thing prevailing. In every district but one, ho ho was right in saying -that the district traffic manager had completed his 40 years and was eligible to retire. They took their orders from the heads; and what ho was faying to point out was that when theso men were filling important and re-’ sponsible positions, the whole tendency was for them to mark time, and feel that they were in a position to take up an irresponsible attitude. Ho bad heard it said to men, “Your time's up, are you retiring?” And they said, “No; so long aa thoy (the department) don’t worry me too much, I will put in a few more years.” He did not say that that was the general attitude. But there was a danger of it; and 5f it prevailed amongst tho heads it was likely to permeate the whole department. Tho men under them would catch the ‘same sort of spirit. Firstly, he would) saw that these men holding^very responsible positions wero practically in somewhat of an independent position, and had no need to make themselves unduly' anxious about tho work they were expected to control. SHOULD NOT BE RISKED. He did not think that that was a position that, should bo risked in any way by an important railway' department. They had as General Manager a. very_ earnest, capable, and hard-working man; but tho danger was that lio had to calory too greet a burden. Ho wanted round him alert, active, • brainy men, fully alive to the needs of tile department. No one man, no matter how capable, could cany the whole burden on his back; and that appeared to be very largely the position as it existed to-day. Ho wanted to consider the position from the point of view of the men beneath these men. • The board had had some evidence the other day in connection with tho non-promotion of men in a certain branch after they had attained tho ago of 50 ymars. Mr McLean, in giving his evidence, when called by the department, put it forward that tho department would find itself in a serious difficulty if it was not able to appoint men as foreman of works until they wore ■practically within a few years .of the time when they wero entitled to retire front the service. If that applied to subordinate positions, it should apply to more responsible positions. Mr MacDonald had told them the other day, in regard to housing, that a. man knew by D 3 how he would stand, and could provide accordingly. But when a man who had completed his 40 years’ service was allowed to hang on seven years or more, how could a young, active man knew what his prospects were. If ho could take D 3 and say, “These men will be retiring in bo many years/’ ho could calculate his position. But to-day he could not. OUT OF TflE SERVICE. He could never know where he was, and ho might “calculate” himself out of tho service into something ho _ thought better, and the department might lose a good man. The main reason given by Mr McLean for not appointing men after 50 years, was that tho departraent must have a recruiting ground from comparatively young men, or alt any rate not very oT.d men, for the position of foreman of works; and Mr Hampton contended that that should amply also to men in higher, posiitiions. Mr McLean added that the men rdtired mostly at 60, mid argued that that showed that when they go tt on in years they found the work too trying for them. Mr Hampton did nut intend to suggest thalb the men in tho higher positions did not find the work ttoo trying for them. Mr McLean, he said, added that by tho regulation in question the department would have several rears of a man’s services after he had had experience of the new position. But that should apply also to the higher positions. The A.S.R.S. argued that rtho men occupying those, positions could get out at 60 years of ago without hardship and with real benefit to the service. There might be an isolated man here and there who after 60 would still render very excellent service, hut how wero they going to discriminate. It would bo very invidious to put tbe power of discrimination in the hands of the General Manager. ■WOULD NOT TAKE HINTS. As a matter of fact, said Mr Hampton, ho thought that the department had given some of these men a very plain hint that they were not wanted. Bub some had very thick hides, and would nob take hints; and it put the general manager in a very awkward position. They admitted that at times tho proposed' regulation might involve tho department losing a man they would bo very sorry to lose; but thoy believed that on the whfSo it would bo (better, from the management point of view and from tho point of view nf those who were looking for promotion, to strictly enforce tho ago limit. They had been told that this question had nothing to do with them; but they could not take that view. Mr Hcrries had told them that ho could not agree to accept from them a suggestion that affected a body of (officers represented by tho Railway Officers’ Institute and not by the A.S.R.S. That seemed to go on tho principle that thoy had two divisions in the department, with a, barrier between, and that they in tho Second Division liad nothing to do with the management of the railways; but they could not accept that position. His Honour: From the evidence we had the other day, it appears that In practice the barrier docs not exist. Mi Hampton: It does and lb does not. They could not, ho repeated, accept the position that they had nothing to say about matters of management. (because they hold that if the head part was not right, then the rest of tho department could not be right. Any other view, ho contended. would ho a very short-sighted view for them to take. Thoy only believed that to enforce the ago limit would increase the efficiency of tho service, and that was why they put it forward.

THE DEPARTMENT'S REPLY

LACK OF UNANIMITY. Mr Macdonald, in reply, said that thero was no unanimity on the matter between the three societies representing the officers of the department. The moving society in this case was the society represented by Mr Hampton. The view of tho Officers’ Institute, expressed tho day 'before, was not quite on tho name lino; and the other society was either against it or indifferent; so that thero was no unanimity in tho service on the question. The Officers’ Institute had pointed out the

day before that they did not agree to the ago limit suggested by life A.S.R.S. The - difference, of course, lay in the conjunction. Tho A.S.R.S. proposed “40 years’ service or 60 years of age," whereas the institute put forward “40 yoars’scrvice and GO years of ago.” Then tho institute put forward the argument that fixing the amount to govern' retirement would have the effect of pushing out the most efficient men who had obtained high positions in the service, whereas it would keep the inefficient men in the service indefinitely. He did not think it would he profitable for him to discuss these differences further. He preferred to deal with tho general principle that retirement should bo made compulsory when officers reached 40 years’ service or GO years or ace. The members of the First Division entered the service at tho ago of 15 or 17. Therefore, under tho regulation asked for, they would 'bo compelled to leave the service at the age of 55 or 57, not later than 57. Ho submitted that between those ages a man had all his mental vigour unimpaired. In fact, in the professions that essentially ■ called for n high degree of intellectual power, a man, as a rule, had not reached the zenith of his career until at least 55 and in some cases later in life.

After nil, age was a relative term. One man might be more alert and . vigorous at 60 than another at 40; and to apply a hard and fast rule would too to ignore theso obvious differences. Such a rule certainly had not been recognised in' England nor throughout the British Empire. 'Whatever the position might ho in America, ho did not know. Mr Macdonald handed in a list of appointments taken from ttoc “Railway Gazette” of last year, showing that tho divisional superintendent of the Great Western Railway had been appointed to that ’position after 45 years’ service; the general manager of tho Great Western after 43 years; tho district traffic manager after 45 years; , the general manager of the London and North-Western, after 44 years; and thalti (thio principal representative of the Minister for Transport in Ireland had been appointed after 40 years. It was evident, he contended, that the claim that Mr Hampton had made, that a man tended to become —ho could not remember the exact phrase—but ho supposed he meant fossilised and fixed and non-progressive at 55, was wrong; Mr Hampton said.that ho had not argued that a man was incompetent or not alert at 55, but that if he was in such an independent position he would not bo so alert as ho would otherwise be. Mr Macdonald: I think you mentioned tbe ages. Mr Hampton: I say that a man. dependent upon tho whole salary will be more alert than the man who could draw the whole of it for nothing. Mr Macdonald: 1 think you referred to the years. His Honour: No; I don’t think so. I understood him to say that when a man was at the retiring ago and able to retire on so largo a portion of his income ho was so independent that ho wouhi not be likely to take tho same responsibility and initiative as a man not in that position. Mr Macdonald quoted the case of the chief railway commissioner in Australia, appointed after many years’ service, and other instances. Air M. J. Mack : Are these men entitled to retire on two-thirds of their salaries? NO HARD AND FAST RULE. Mr Macdonald said that ho could nolt say. Ho urged that the application of a hard and fast rule such as that suggested would have the effect of prematurely dcx>riving tho country of the services" of men whom those responsible thought well-fitted to fill important positions, and from whoso experience of railway work the country was entitled to ’benefit. The superannuation fund was intended for the benefit of the country and of. the distributors, and to use tho fund to injure both must he wrong. First- there was the loss to tho man, in that he was deprived of the right to engage in work in which ho could secure the maximum return for his labour; and then tillero was the loss to tho country' of Ids ripe experience. Referring to the charge that tho present system was blocking promotion and hindering progress, ho asked, would change remove the block and open up positions to which young men could aspire? He argued that when the first promotions entailed by the retirements duo to the enforcement of tho suggested regulation had been made, tho benefit of the change would bo exhausted, because the relative positions of the men _in tho service in regard to promotion would ho unaffected. The only benefit would ho that men would bo appointed to the vacated positions five years earlier; hut they would have to retire five years sooner'. Under tho rognlaliion, too, a, man would attain office when he had five years’ less experience, and would have to retire five years before tho’ benefit of his experience need ho lost to the emintrv. lit was said, .too, that the higher officers increased the burden on tho superannuation fund, but under this suggestion the burden on tho fund would be immediately and considerably increased. (VARIATION OF CONTRACT. Tho introduction of such a. provision as that now proposed would also, ho maintained, be a material variation of tho original contract. Mr Hamilton: Tho men wero stopped during tho war from retiring. Wo were fold then that tho contract could bo broken. Mr .Macdonald contended that the change was nob justified, as it involved a considerable eieonomio loss to tho country, injury to tho contributor, and a heavy burden on the superannuation fund. Tho officers mentioned by Mr Hampton, he- maintained, were performing highly ..important duties to tho State. They; had given the State the beat of service, during their lives; and they were at tho present time of very valuable assistance to tho department by virtue of their very great experience. Ho refused to accept the suggestion that they were in any senso lacking in alertness or in interest in their work. , Many of them wore putting in much longer hours than the members, of the service generally in order to meet tho exceptional requirements of tho present timo duo to the conditions left as a legacy' hy tho war.- It was of very great assistance teethe management to have officers of such ripe experience to advise under the conditions under which the department was working at the present rime. The cases compared with these by Mr Hampton were not, ho maintained, really comparable. In the other cases quoted it was a question of physical alertness, not of mental alertness; and ho hold that a man attained and passed his maximum physical alertness long bolero 350 attained and passed his maximum mental alertness. THE YOUNGER MEN.

The department quite recognised the necessity of giving every assistance towards bringing the younger men forward. There had_, lie recognised, been

a tendency in the department for linage of tho men in the higher positionto increase ; but that, ho contended, vanot traceable to retirement on superannivf.tiou at all, but to tho influence of classification on grade service. The number of positions high up was necessarily small, and if the progression, in .the service was to be based, as in the past, very largely upon tho principle of seniority, it was unavoidable that tho higher ago would be maintained Vi hat was required for the benefit, ol the service was greater opportunities for bringing forward young men who showed promise of ability and capacity, it was, however, a very. difficult thing, because, in dealing with a great service,' it had to ho recognised that, the majority of the. st-af! wero concerned rather in immodiai.i than in remote rewards. They were intolerant of anything that savoured ol selection which they to.uk to be due mainly to favouritism; and in a department of-State which was more L r less brought under the influence of out.skli conditions—political conditions in some respects—it followed that the hands ol tlie management in selecting men were not free.

BENUMBING EFFECT OF CLASSIFICATION’.

He, personally, believed that the sins that were charged against the present system hy Mr Hamilton were dm to the benumbing effect that classification had upon tho whole staff. His Honour : How long . has classification been in force?

Air Macdonald; Longer than in any other Government department. Sinci 1597; and wo have noticed tho effect on the stuff for some years. 'Where, hi added, a young man had no prospect oi rising, except in procession with Unrest, it took from him the incentive which was an essential condition to development and success. His Honour: I suppose that thtpondludies the inquiry. If am veryglad to have heard yonr views this morning, gentlemen; and I think the question presents to me a very great difficulty. I quite see that classification is the lion in tbe path; but “what can be substituted?” is probably -a Btib more difficult question. However, 1 will ; give the matter my best consideration.

Mr Macdonald 'briefly thanked His Honour for his uniform courteey and patience throughout tho inquiry; and Mr .Hampton did the same on behalf of the, A.B.E.S. Was it likely to be long, he asked in conclusion, before the report was sent to the Government.

His Honour said that he could not Bay. He would have to confer with the assessors representing the various branches of tho service, and would proceed to do so at once. But, necessarily, that would take some little time. As soou as he could, ho would give his full report, or at least an interim report, but it was impossible to give any idea when it would be.