TRENTHAM CAMP

New Zealand Times, Volume XL, Issue 9095, 14 July 1915, Page 9

TRENTHAM CAMP

KOBE INTERROGATIONS

EXPLANATIONS BY MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

“A FEVER-STRICKEN HOLE.”

MR ALLEN REFUSES TO BE CONVINCED.

During yesterday’s sitting of the House of Representatives several questions wero put to Ministers without ■notice as to the alarming conditions that have arisen at Trentham camp and the administration of the Defence Department.

In tile first instaqpe Mr G. W. Busted (Avon) drew attention to statements in the press credited to the Minister for Defence that up to 5 o’clock on Thursday there was no intention of shifting Trentham camp, hut by 7 o’clock all arrangements had been made as to now sites, so that there had been very quick work. Reading between the lines it looked us if the removal had been arranged without the authority of the Minister for Defence. He would like to ask if this wero so, as the Minister was reported to have stated on Sunday night that Trentham was the best caihp seen in New Zealand, and was as good a site as could bo secured. Mr Allen; “That is so.” . Mr Russell: According to the Christchurch “Sun” the hon. gentleman bad said in his opinion the . camp was the best in the Dominion, and the site was a healthy one. He would like to know whether the Minister had in his mind the continuance of Trentham as a camp By retaining some of the troops there. Were there some still there? Mr Allen:, ‘.‘Twelve or fourteen nun-

dred.” . , , Mr Russell; “Does the lion, membei propose to leave them for a day longer than is necessary in this fever-stricken hole ? Or is he going to take the risk of an extension of tho disease • which is now incipient?” Mr Allen : “I am not responsible for everything put in the newspapers The statement about ‘Dr Valintino 'rushing in to say the camp must he •moved, I know nothing about.’ ■ Mr Russell: “It was in the 'Domm-

Mr Aliens "I am not responsible for the ‘Times 7 * or ‘Dominion’ or any other paper —not oven the ‘Spectator. (Laughter.) On Thursday afternoon I was speaking in the House when a report was brought to me' in regard to the camp at Trentham. Immediately I had an opportunity o! leaving the House I saw my colleague, Mr Rhodes, and some staff military officers. They had been working out arrangements for the removal of the camp, hut the authority for-doing so was given by the Minister for Defence. I am asked whether I am prepared to keep any men in the camp. There are men in tho camp, and they are very anxious hot to move. The non. member says .it is a fever-stricken holer- Upon j what evidence? Mr RUssell: “On the evidence that you shifted the whole of the men.’ ' Mr Allen: ■“I have not shifted the whole. There are twelve or fourteen hundred who don’t want to shift, end there has not been a case of sickness among thorn during the last three or four days. If the hon. gentleman will exercise his patience for two or three days he shall hear a little bif more about Trentham camp and the conditions, and ho shall judge for himself whether it is a fever-sthoken hole. The reason for shifting the men will also ho given in due course.” “IS THE CAMP SEPTIC?” Dr H- T. J. Thacker (Christchurch East); “May I- ask tho Minister for Defence a question on his last answer without notice? Is the Trentham. camp septic? If it is not. why has he brought from Dunedin the most able bacteriologist in Australasia to report on it? „ , , Mr Allen: “I can tell the hon. member why I brought him up in the course of two or three days.” (Opposition cries of “Ah! ahl”) THE RANOIOTU SITE.

Mr A. Harris iWaitemata) asked tie Prime Minister whether his attention had been called to a statement by the Mayor of Auckland that the new Rangiotu site was totally unsuitable, being practically a swamp area and liable to heavy flooding. ' . ... Mr Massey said that several similar statements were current in Wellington last Saturday. A mistaken idea had arisen through the railway station being situated in a swampy locality. People naturally came to the conclusion that the camp was intneded to be in the immediate vicinity, but that was not the case. He had visited tho site, and it was the best he had seen. An hon. member: “What about Timaru?” Mr Massey; At the end of last week there was almost a phenomenal downpour of rain, and the low country in the neighbourhood of Palmerston was under water, hut there was no sign of n-ater at Rangiotu. There were 9000 acres available for a camp. The formation was sandy with a light porous soil on top which would not hold the water. It seemed to him to ho impossible to have mud there such as was experienced at Trout ham and some of the other camps. Mr H. G. Ell (Christchurch South): “You would not have had it at Trentham if the ground had been properly loaded and looked after.” Mr Massey continued that a water supply was being arranged for at Rangiotu. Mr T. M. Wilford (Hutt): “I hear that water is being carted to the place tn tanks.”

Mr Massey explained that the tanks wore only intended as a temporary expedient for this week. It had been found that an excellent supply '"'as Available from an artesian well. Mr Russell asked whether there was any special reason why Opposition members were not invited to accompany the Prime Minister on his visit. Mr Massey explained that he had originally intended to go to Palmerston by motor-car, but it was impossible •owing to the heavy rainfall. . It was then arranged that a Ministerial carriage should be attached to a railway engine, it being necessary for the IX fenco authonitffes to* make arrangetments to transfer some troops on the Sunday. The train that was used sened a double purpose, and when he poi to the railway station ho found Mr Field, Mr Buick and three other members', who joined the party. _ The ai rangements were made Tvurriedly. Had there been time he would have hev. only too glad to have provided for members on the. other side of tho House, Much to his surprise he found a representative of tha press at .the station^

and ho asked permission to accompany the party. M r Russell: “W hat paper ?” Mr Massey: “One of the papers ho represents is the “N.Z. Herald. ’ WET CLOTHES AND THE REGULATIONS. Mr Ell asked whether it was the intention of the Defence Department to have the Trentham camp properly roacr cd and whether the regulations would, bo relaxed which necessitated men folding up their wet overcoats and towels”on top of their blankets. From what ho could loam there were some officers who insisted on the letter of the regulations, and it was about time they learnt a little common sense. Mr Allen replied that the reading would be completed before the men went back, if they did go back. As, to the drying of clothes, erections had boon allowed outside the - tents so that they could bo hung up in the sun. Mr G. Witty (Riccarton): “They are not even allowed to hang up their towels.” , iur Allen: “If you tell me the particular instance I will have the matter, inquired into. I don’t know officer who would give such an order.’ Mr Witty : “I will give you the name of my informant.” Dr Thacker: “Why don’t you^allow iho men to sleep in hammocks?” Mr Allen: “any don’t you allow them to go to the moon?” AN OFFER. FROM CHRISTCHURCH.

Mr G. W. Bussell (Avon) said he had been authorised to renew an offer from the New Brighton Trotting Club to place its racecourse and buildings at the disposal of the Defence authorities for the purposes of a military camp. He asked if the Minister for Defence would be prepared to place a camp .at this peculiarly healthy and suitable site. The Minister replied that it was the present intention of the Defence Department to keep all the camps within a convenient distance of the headquarters in Wellington. He did not think there was any likelihood of camps being placed in the South Is land in the near future. Dr Newman (Wellington-East) Suggested that Lyall Bay would make an excellent site for a camp. Tire Minister said all the offers arid suggestions were being placed on record. . . .

A “DEPARTMENTAL INQUIRY.” Mr Fletcher (Wellington Central; asked the Minister fox Defence if it was a fact that a secret inquiry was being conducted by a board presided over by Mr Riddell, S.M., in regard to the supply of stores for War purposes? What were the circumstances that had. rendered, this inquiry necessary P . • The Minister for Defence said that a departmental inquiry , was being hold with regard to Defence stores. Mr Fletcher: “A secret one?” The Minister: “I don’t quite know what you mean by secret. Department, al inquiries are hot open to the puh> lie.” SOMEBODY TO BLAME. Mr Forbes (Hurunui) said he wished to ask a question concerning the ai rangemonts made by the Defence Department for informing parents regarding the condition of their sick sons in the forces. He was in possession of a letter from a resident ot Cheviot, whose son was in hospital. The parents bad hoard indirectly that their hoy was sick, and at 9 o’clock on Thursday morning last they had dispatched an urgent, reply-paid telegram to the Defence Department in Wellington, asking for information. The answer had arrived at i o’clock in the afternoon, and stated simply that inquiries were being made at the ■camp. The message was signed “Records.” Since then tho parents bad received no further communication at all from the department, though they had got a letter on from their son, who was now recovering. “Will the Minister secure an explanation from the officer who sent this telegram signed ‘Records’ ” ? asked Mr Forbes. “The House is determined that parents shall receive information regarding their sons.” The Hon. K. H. Rhodes said he had already explained the steps he had taken. It was a very difficult task to organise the distribution of information. He had placed the work in the hands of a senior officer from the Postal Department. That officer had just asked for further assistance, which was being provided at once.'

The Hon. Jaimes Allen said that the name of every man who went into hospital was reported to headquarters the same day in order that information might be sent to the parents or next-of-kin.

Mr Forbes: “These parents were not informed.”

Mr Allen: “I suppose that case occurred some time ago." Mr Forbes: “It occurred last Thursday, after the discussion in the House, The officer should be severely reprimanded.”

RELATIVES TO BE REPRESENTEDThe leader of the Opposition (Sir Joseph Ward) said he wished to repeat a question ho had asked in the previous week. Did the Government intend to allow relatives of the men who had died to have legal representation before the Royal Commission which was to investigate matters connected with Trentham camp? Many people had approached him on this subject, and it was easy to seo that a great deal of dissatisfaction would arise if the people who were directly interested in the conditions at the camp were not given facilities for putting their views and their evidence before the Commission.

The Prime Minister said ho had promised previously that the, relatives and friends of the men concerned should have legal representation before the Commission. The promise would be kept. Ho had been in communication Pith one of the ablest lawyers in New Zealand on the subject, but had not yet received a definite reply. Arrangements would he made in the direction indicated.

Sir Joseph Ward: “Will tho proceedings he open to the press ?” Mr Massey: “Yes." ANOTHER GRIEVANCE.

Mr Poole (Auckland East) called the attention of the responsible Minister to the case of a woman who had come from tho north to see her two sons, both of them having fallen sick while in camp, and who Lad been refused permission to see one of them. The member said he was informed that parents were not called to their boys’ bedsides until the patients were reported to bo in extremis- This rule meant that parents who lived far from Wellington were not likely to arrive in time to see their sons alive. The Hon. R. H. Rhodes said ho recognised tho case that had been referred to. The woman had called upon him, and ho had told her that it was deemed desirable ffit her' to yisi^

the Kaiwarra hospital at the present time. She had not made any complaint. He had since ascertained that her son was making good progress, but ho had been unable to got into communication with tho mother at the address she had given. Every assistance was given to parents to see thoir sons if the illness was serious.

Mr Poole quoted from a letter regarding a man who had been alone in a tent all night while very sick. Tho Minister said he could hardly believe that anything of the kind had occurred. Su Joseph Ward said he had been informed officially that tho custom was to send for parents when the men were in extremis. Ho would like to have some definite Information regarding the rules governing the visits of parents and relatives to sick soldiers, since he had received a great many inquiries on the point. Tho Hon. R. H. Rhodes said that no objection had been taken to parents visiting their "sons until an alarm was raised regarding the nature of the sickness at Trentham. Then it had been deemed desirable to isolate the patients. If a man was reported to be in a serious condition, his parents were notified and were allowed to visu. oim.

Sir Joseph Ward: “1 was informed officiallv that parents were not called in until the man was in extremis.” Mr Rhodes: “Tho system that I att endeavouring to perfect requires that when there is any change for the worse in the condition of a man tho parents shall be informed- it is difficult to arrange everything all at once.” SOMEBODY SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

Mr Hornsby (Wairarapa) asked if the Minister would take some steps to secure tho punishment of the persons responsible for the lamentable happenings that .were being reported to the House. He mentioned the case of a man who had been taken from Trentham camp to the Kaiwarra hospital in an unconscious state and whose parents had received no notice at all of his serious illness. Tho man bad been unconscious for three days, and had been near to death. The Hon. R,_ H. Rhodes protested that the member had not had the courtesy to give notice of the question, so that information regarding the case might be secured. Mr Hornsby; “1 have only been in possession of the. facts for the last hour or two, and I have been out to Kaiwaira to see the man.” Mr Rhodes; “An hour or two would have been ample , for inquiries, to be made. As to punishment, I have to find out if this statement can he substantiated.” : Mr Poole; “There are hundreds of such cases. We all have letters.’’ COMPLAINTS TO M.P.’s.

Mr P. C. Webb (Grey) staked if it was a fact that soldiers had been warned by their officers, against making statements to members hf Parliament regarding the conditions of the camp. Mr Allen said that he knew of no such orders, but he thought it would be better if soldiers ventilated their grievances through the regular channels, instead, of rushing to members of Parliament* Mr Webb: “That would be the last they would hear of them.’’ Mr Allen said that if an officer did not inquire ’ into the' grievances of his men .he. would be failing in his duty, and would be punished.

CITY ENGINEER’S INSTRUCTIONS.

Mr Wilford asked whether it was a fact that when Mr Morton, the Wellington city engineer, had -designed the drainage and sanitation of the camp, he had been told that not more than 4000 men would be accommodated there, and that he had planned the drainage on a basis of 4000 men. Mr Morton was one of the foremost engineers in Australasia, and Melbourne was now trying to get him away from Wellington. His name had been bandied about a good deal lately, and it was only fair to him that tho matter should be cleared up. Mr Allen said that Mr Morton had been instructed to draw up his designs for a camp (hat might have to be extended. The whole question would be settled by the Royal Commission.' SEPARATION ALLOWANCE. f Mr Wilford asked why it was that men in Trentham could not find out when the extra la a day separation allowance was to be paid to their wives. Mr Allen said that the payments had been made since June last- If the payment had hot been made in any case he would like to hafe the name, so that he could make inquiry into the case. THE MILITARY HOSPITALS. Dr Thacker, (Christchurch East) said that medical men who had gone to the Wellington hospital had found that they could not get access to the soldier patients, who were treated by a medical officer. It was a fact that tho men at half a dozen military hospitals, scattered over a wide area, were -being ai ■ tended by one medical officer who resided at Trentham and had his hands very full with the cases that were wader treatment there. That officer had to supervise 500 or - 600 patients during the day. He was.vcry glad to notice that at last the Minister for Defence had got into communication with the British Medical Association. MINISTERS’ ATTITUDE. Mr Hornsby said he was very sorry that the Ministers should think it necessary to take up an antagonistic attitude towards members who were asking questions- and making an honest and earnest effort to get the information that tho country required. It seemed to him that while tho people of tho country were demanding that Parliament should sift these matters to the bottom, the Ministers were standing between tho House and the persons who were responsible for grave mismanagement. , Mr Payne.(Grey Lynn) said that Ministers should not be trying to. take shelter behind their Ministerial dignity at a time when the country was demanding action. Sufficient information had come to justify the Dominion in calling upon the Minister for Defence to resign. The country was at last re alising that a very inefficient Government was m charge of tne public affairs. Mr Poole said that no suggestion that tho Opposition was actuated by party motives in discussing the conditions at the camps and hospitals^world bo acceptable to the people of ■ the country. Members of the .House were being flooded with complaints • and inquiries, and the Opposition had not approached the subject in a party spirit at all. They were simply demanding that matters should be put right and that parents and relatives should be enabled to get prompt, accurate Information regarding their bovs in camp. . , Mr Jennings (Taumarunni) said that., he bad dozens of letters on the subject, and he had information, which .showed that the conditions, in the camp, had been bad three months previously. ....

FRANK CONFESSION. Dr Newman (Wellington East) said that the members on the Government side of the House were, as much concerned about the unfortunate position as the Opposition members were. “Wo have spoken to Ministers quite freely,’' said Dr Newman. “We have not washed our dirty linen in public. I do think that a certain amount of party feeling has been displayed by the members of the Opposition, and that they have enjoyed bringing forward matter against the Government. The members of the Ministry have their faults, and they will have to atono for them, but I think that unnecessary misery has been caused in the country by scare questions. I took on interest in the camp long before members on the other side brought the matter up. I have been to the Minister often on the subject. ’ Dr Newman added that there had been outbreaks of disease in the military camps of other countries. Tho members on the Government side were doing their best to remedy the troubles that had arisen, though they did not always rush into the papers. Mr Veitqli denied that the Opposition had displayed . party spirit. He personally had received dozens of complaints wnlch he had not mentioned in the House. THE MINISTER REPLIES. The Minister for Defence, in the course of his reply, said that he was very grateful to the members on both sides of the House for the courtesy they had shown towards him and his officers, and for the small amount of work they had imposed Upon him at a time when they wore being pressed with inquiries from their districts. He had answered to the beat of his ability, all the questions that had been put to him in the House. Regarding the enlistment of New Zealanders in Australia he had not intended to give a general application to his earlier statement. Some cases of the kind be had described had oome under his notice. He was convinced that the Dominion’s methods of sending forward troops was the right one. General Godley and General Birdwood had stated repeatedly in their letters that what they wanted was a steady stream of reinforcements. New Zealand was supplying reinforcement drafts in i the way required, and it could continue doing so providing that the present arrangements were not upset. The report that he was about to lay upon the table would explain why training oampa in various parts of the country Were • Hot desirable. With regard to the medical service ho- would be very glad to have tho assistance of any body of medical men. But how many of tho- medical men who were now expressing • dissatisfaction with what had been done had volunteered to go to the front? The department had. found it extremely difficult to get medical men in the early stages of the war. Recently ; the number of voluteers had been larger, but it, was only fair to take the medical men, as they were. required, in the order in which they appeared on the registration list. A considerable number-Of debtors would be required for the reinforcements. An appeal had been made for 100 doctors to serve under the, Imperial authorities, but the list was not full. ... ' , ' . , Dr Thacker mentioned the name of a doctor who had volunteered and come to Wellington, and who was now, told that, he was not required at presentTbe Minister-said he would inquire regarding the case. Ho could not say all that he would like to with regard to Trenthani camp. He hoped in a few days to be able to place before the House a report which would show that the conditions at the camp never had been what they wore represented to be. Mr Wilford: “Why were the men shifted?” ... , The Minister; “ You will hear in good time. The medical men did not know what they know to-day.” Referring to his interview with representatives of the British Medical Association, the Minister said he had asked the deputation how many members of their body were prepared to join th© Army Medical Service. He would be glad to enrol those who were prepared to join, and then they would be called upon for service when required. He had. been told that tho doctors who could not mm the army service were prepared to give assistance in the military hospitals. Mr Wilford: “You oould have found that out in January.” The Minister added that the military ward at the Wellington hospital was under the'control of the medical superintendent of the institution. The report regarding the provision of reinforcement drafts was laid upon the table and ordered to bo printed.