PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXVI, Issue 8190, 3 August 1912, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

PROCEEDINGS YESTERDAY. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DISCUSSIONS ON VARIOUS TOPICS. The House of Representatives met at -.01) o’clock yesteruuy uueruoon. NEW BILLS. Mr W. 11. D. Bell (Wellington Subnro3 and Loumry) gave notice of musa non to inuvHiute cue Licensing Amend meat Bill. -No. 2. Tne non. if. M. B. Fisher gave notice to uitawuce the omppuig and Seamen Amoaumcut Bill ana uie Stale Fire Insinauce Amendment Bill. Tuo lion. A. B. Uciuiuaa intimated ins intention to introduce Uie Civil Sep vice Amendment Bill. FIRST READINGS.

The following Bills were introduced and read Uie nrst time:— Gaming Act IUIO Amendment BUI (lit iluaier). _ _ Waitemata County Council Empowering Bill (Mr Karris). „ Unregistered Nurses Registration BiU (Mr Payne). . Sumner Foreshore Empowering Bui (Mr Lauronson). RETURNS ORDERED. A number of returns, moved for by various members, were ordered to 1m laid before the House. Ministerial answers to question* mt discussed on the Hon. D. Bnddo'e BUS tioa for adjournment of the Houee. CIVIL SERVANTS. POLITICAL DISABILITIES. Mr T M. Wilford (H««) advocated tm moval of the political disability* of Civil servants and- railway employe**, ■ Ho believed , local bodies lost a numb** of valuable men on account of these <U*> abilities, and he intended consistently to advocate that Civil servant* and rail* way officers should have full political and civil rights. It was said that If d railway winn wore town board which passed a resolution criticising the Government, ho could not join m repr» sentations supporting that resolution. But he (Mr Wilford) oould not see why that should be so. He did not behave that the Government would-be found lacking in their duties towards civil esa- \

This view was supported by Mr D. Buick (Palmerston) who hoped that tha Prime Minister would, in his Rauwwr Management Bill, give civil servants full political rights. Mr W. A. Veiteh (Wanganui! said on* of the chief reasons why civil servant* should have full political rights' w** that they were sufficiently backed by public opinion in the matter. H* quoted his own experience when as a raU*. way servant ho addressed political meet* , ings and he resigned from the service, under protest. Public opinion wa*. strongly in favour of civil and political rights for State employees. Thai* wa* ; a grave' danger attached to the present position; each, elector had not only a . vote but the right to defend himself on a public platform. The granting votes to women was one of the grandest - things ever dono in New Zealand. (Heart >. hear.) As to the objection that Stats employees could divulge confidential information. it had to be remembered that they had the power to deal with them. Insurance company and financial insQa tutione' employees were entitled to tax* part in the political life of the oonntry. Mr G. Witty (Riocarton) hoped that civil servants would be given their full rights, so that they should bb able to participate in elections. Am theyhad the franchise, the related rights should not bo taken from them., . ;. CHAOS WITH CRITICISM. Mr G. V.‘ Poaroo (Patoa) asked what' the position would be if the employees of a large station went in tort 1m streets to criticise their etationmasterf There would be chaos, and discipline would I* destroyed. Ho did not share the view that railway servants should have CM full rights claimed for them. • SECRET MEETINGS. Mr C. K- Wilson (Taumarunui) said > that is every direction mvU servants, had been deprived of their election times civil servants held sears* meetings—a very unwise and mptopj* proceeding. They should have the_rt*bl to come out into the light and express their political opinions. „ , u • Mr L. M. Isitt (Christchurch _NortM commented on the improved ÜberalTOiMi of younger members of fibs’ siC power, but there were still, some /high and dry old Tories. As , to civil rants’ rights, if the old bugbearih** these officers would .use their ngh*S to criticise their superiors were the oaJ£ argument against the suggestion, the* tier© was no reason, affiunut to* ADOIUW .. of these disabilities. IMPOSSIBLE PRINCIPLE. Mr G. W. Russell (Avon) said a good deal had been said as to TOtoraOan.sg tfie tights of civil servants, but be wa*, cot aware of any encroachment lor It was a question of granting, not. restoring. The disabUity to 61 t on committees should be removed, but ■■ Mb regard to Parliament they should «• that the regulations were adapted to tn* case. Should an Inspector of Police of Collector of Customs be allowed to sb* in a notice of his intention to stand tor Parliament, with a request that hm padtion be field open till the election wa* over? That was a principle abeoinesir impossible of universal appliration. 1* would throw the whole Civil Semoewt* a disorganised state, while , respoßßDi* civil servants were engaged m election*, RAILWAY APPEAL BOARD Mr W. H. D. Bell, discerning th«B«U* way Appeal Board, Hoped that to# oe* cieiona of this board would be made nnai* At present, the Minister had tne.powa* of veto; its present constitution stems* to be a farco. The board should made thoroughly efficient and givenraJJ power of dealing with Questions attsptUiE railway servants. ' Hft further pointed out that many railway regulation* were ultra vires; every regulation should, be gazetted and this would do away with b good deal of the friction between railway cmnloyees and the Ministers. Mi C. K Wilson also expressed th* view that tfie Railway Appeal Boar* represented a cheer farce and waste o* time while the Ministerial veto on «■ decisions was retained. NEW RAILWAY ACT PROMISED. The Minister, speaking Inter in th* afternoon, said that ho had not Imo* long enough in oha-gc of the Railway* Department to be able to say whether the veto should be taken off or not. At first flush he considered that it Mould be abolished, but he oould quite uuagin* cases where the veto might he abeolutely necessary. If the veto wore abolished it would make the task of the Mioiete* for Railwavs ten times easier. than at present. The whole question was now under consideration and the Railways Act was being overhauled. A new Railway Act would be introduced this acasion and when this was done he would be able to say whether .the Ministerial veto should be kept on or abolished. IMPRISONMENT OF YOUTHS Discussing the imprisonment of thiul youths at Auckland under the Defence Act, Mr J. H. Bradney said it wa* a disgrace to the country that _ these lad* should be branded as gaol-birds. Did thq House realise .what impoapnmeat cf

these youths meant to them? _ The itigma attached to the lads all their life. No more youths should be sent to gaol under this Act. Mr H. \V. Campbell (Hawke a Bay) said that his sympathies wore entirely ivith the youths. Ho would like to see nu amendment of the law by which, instead of imprisoning these misguided youths, they should imprison, the streetcorner preachers who egged them on and told them they were heroes and martyrs. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. MR LANG ELECTED WITHOUT OPPOSITION. The Prime Minister moved that Mr H. W. Lang be appointed Chairman of Committees and remarked that Mr Lang was now a veteran in politics, having been a member of the House for eighteen years. Ito felt certain that the election of Mr Lang would give satisfaction to the people throughout the country. (Hear, Star.) The motion woe canned without deMr lung brioflv thanked the House for the honor done liim and promised that 3iis very beet efforts would always be (riven to hie non- task. Ho appreciated the honor nil the more in that it was entirely unsought. EVENING SITTING. ‘ The House resumed at 7.30. DEPUTY GOVERNOR'S POWERS. The Hon. A. L. Hordman (AttorneyGeneral) moved the second reading of the Deputy Governor's Powers Bill. He explained that the Bill was introduced nt the request of the Colonial Office. This legislation was absolutely necessary in order to mako certain the position of a deputy Governor. Some time ago in Sonth Australia a deputy Governor bras appointed, and tho High Court of Australia decided that several functions ■which this deputy performed in exercise of 1 his powers were illegal. This Bill proposed to mako a deputy Governor's acts legal. Mr Wilfiord asked what acts it was proposed to make valid, and would the Bill meet the case of a Governor leaving New Zealand before his successor arrived? The Minister said tho Bill covered any case dealt with in the absence of the Governor. Two distinct powers were conferred upon a Governor—(l) those by letters nateut and (2) those which ho Em-formed by virtue of the Acts passed y the Legislature. This Bill legalised beyond doubt a deputy Governor’s position. , Tho second, reading was agreed to on the voices. PINGEE PRINTS. The Hon- A. L. Herdman (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of the Prisons Amendment Bill, dealing with tho question of finger prints. This Bill, he said, was one which their predecessors had had in hand and the Government had adopted it, because they thought the legislation was necessary. Some time ago an attempt was made in Auckland gaol to take a man’s fingerprints. This man had been convicted of an offence. He was advised that the gaol official who had taken tho finger prints had committed an assault upon him. When the man got out of prison he brought an action against the offending gaol official and recovered damages before Mr Kettle, S.M., for assault. This Bill would prevent a recurrence of that sort of thing. The measure empowered finger prints to be taken not only of persons* convicted but of those persons accused of an offence. Mr Lanrenson said ilie average cost of keening the prisoners of this country was ,£IOOO a day. and he thought it was worth the Minister’s while to go into

this question of prison reform. He had read speeches by Mr Herdman in which the Minister had not expressed much sympathy with prison reform, but he hoped now that he was Minister he would look into this question. In New South Wales the coat of dealing with criminals had been reduced by 50 per cent, during tho last fifteen years. He urged tho Minister to take steps in the direction of making our prisons more roforaia-tivo.

Mr Bradney suggested an amendment that where an accused person was tried and proved not guilty all traces of his finger-print should be destroyed. Mr Hanan (late Minister of Justice) said the prisons of New Zealand were so constructed that they 'did not allow that classification to be carried out which was essential if they were going to have proper prison reform. The want of the present system was inspection. Dr Hay had so many other duties that it was impossible for him to do justice to the inspection, while tho Rev. Mr Kayll was not the proper man as inspector of prisons. No doubt Mr Kayll’s services were beneficial in many ways, but what he complained of was that the present staff under him did not give effect to his advice, and ho had not received that encouragement he believed was desirable. Allegations had been made against Mr Kayll at the private conference of gaolers, but these, were too serious to make public in view of tho ex parte nature of tho statements. Mr J. Payne believed grievous injustice might be done if clause 2 was allowed to go through without amendment. Mr A. S. Malcolm urged that prison Jabor should not be permitted to come into unfdir competition with the outside market. There was nothing offensive in what was proposed in the Bill. Mr A. H. Hindmarsh drew the attention of the Minister of Justice to tho treatment meted out to a man imprisoned under a judgment summons for debt in Wellington gaol, where he was treated ns nu ordinary criminal. When he protested the gaol officials informed him that so far ns they were concerned he would be treated just the same way as H ho had received a sentence of twenty years for a crime. Ho did not think this sort of thing ought to be'allowed anv longer. Mr L. M. Isitt thought the prison authorities ought to use discretion In tho matter of taking the finger prints of accused persons. Mr G. J- Anderson considered there was a possibility of hundreds of innocent people leaving their finger prints on tho gaol records. He asked the Minister what was the position in regard to tho report of tho gaolers’ conference held recently in Wellington? Was their opinion to the effect that our present system of treating prisoners was not the correct one? Mr W. H. D. Bell said the hon. member for Lyttelton inferred that the judges’ of the Supreme -Court did not know what they wore doing when they sentenced a man to five years' imprisonment. Did ho mean to say that he know more of this question than the judges? Mr Lanrenson: I do. Mr Bell: I am .very -glad to hear it. for one will now be able to know bow much importance to attach to his remarks regarding nrison reform. As to tho Bill itself, it was necessary. The member for Wellington South was mistaken—there was no imprisonment for debt in Now Zealand, but only imprisonment for wilfully disobeying an order of the court. . Mr Wilford: Or if he deesn t turn l ’*Mr Bell: That’s his own fault. THE CENTRAL PRISON. The Hon. Mr Herdman, in reply, said the Bill was necessary in order to protect tho police officers who were obliged to enforce the provisions of the. Act. So far as the report of the conference of gaolers was concerned, he thought it advisable that it should not bo made public. It was handed to the late Minister for Justice as a confidential document.

and ho did not propose to make it public. At the same time, he did not think there was any caiusa for alarm in connection with our gaol management. Jn man? respects the management was highly satisfactory, and so wae the system, lie agreed that what was wanted was more inspection. 110 would not, however, be able to form a proper opinion ot the whole prison system until he had had an opportunity of visiung all of the prisons. Tho remarks of Mr Laurenson sounded rather curious coming from a member who represented a coustituencj which had witnessed the Gilbcrtian taclo of a strike of prisoners. As to the central prison at Tokanui, it was l al 'S<> ly a (|U€stion of finance whether that would be developed or not. Ho wis.ieci to remind lion, members, on the general question of prison reform, that there was now in existence a valuable institution. tho Prisons Hoard, which he understood was Joins; exceedingly good work. The second reading was agreed to on tho voices. PUBLIC HEALTH. Tho lion. J. Alien (Minister lor Education) moved the second reading of the New Zealand University Amendment Bill, empowering the Senate to conicv a diploma in Public Health. The Minister. in his remarks. . acknowledged the valuable work demo in the interests ot the public health by Ur Truby King. Air Ci. W. Russell urged that the Senate did not represent the modern idea in connection with higher education. Tho constitution of the Senate required modernising and democratising. ino fees charged for examination were unreasonably and unfairly high, because the Senate received a very largo subsidy from the Government. The university would never progress until the largo outside interests, now unrepresented, wore allowed to take part and express themselves in tho Senate. . , Mr A. S. Malcolm said the literary test for the matriculation examination should ho done away with, for by insisting on this tost for" certain subjects they were shutting out capable youths from the professions. Ho would like to see many of the recommendations made in regard to university reform carried out. Tho Hon. D. Buddo thought it would be very desirable if they could give their own students a better opportunity of qualifying for the positions offering in this country. Mr G. M. Thomson said that what between scholarships and bursaries there were now 570 open at tho present time. Here, more than anywhere else in the world, university education was open to every punil of talent. They could not keep their graduates: , tho Otago School of Mines turned out scores and scores of able men they could not employ in this country- He boned that, the proposed diploma would bo something more then a university degree. The Hon. J. Allen, in reply, said he wished to make it plain that this diploma of public health was not the ordinary diploma given by the colleges, which had newer to give a diploma of less value how. Tho very reason for coming to Parliament was to be able to give, in addition to the degree already attained cither in medicine, midwifery, or surgery, a diploma specially in public health. So held quite as democratic ideas in regard to university reform as tho member for Avon, and with regard to this question tho hon. member ought to give him credit for having won the battle in tho Senate to n very large extent. The results f>f these reforms would be felt in succeeding years. The second reading was agreed to on the voices. The House rose at 11.7 p.m.