MINISTER’S REPLY

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 6269, 24 July 1907, Page 5

MINISTER’S REPLY

VIGOROUS DEFENCE OF POLICY, Tho Hon. R, McNab (Miniptpr oi Lands) followed the leader .of i theoOpposition; Ho was heartily applauded when ho rose to speak. He commenced with an expression of regret :that Mr Massey was not in his usual good health, and therefor© unable, to take advantage of sthe immense amount of material he ; had intended to make use ot to galvanise tho House and tho country •into'’life in regard to the terrible, iniquitious, - and appalling intentions of the Government. Ho thought before Mr -Massey fiiiished that he felt m connection wita his criticism a good deal of idisappointment at the position ho found, ; -They K had only to read Mr Massey's', remarks in another part of the colony to see that he expected upon his return- td Wellington to find himself ' the leader *6f • a', majority of members of tlio House,but something must have disappointed tho honourable gentleman and led him to think ; things about ’ the adminis- ; tration which nobody else -had in their minds. With the exception of the member for Bruce, nobody else in his;partr took the field. .v ; «. . Mr Alison: Did not requirb'to, 1 - CAERIED BEYOND. THE BOUNDS. Mr McNab retorted that there was no prospect for them. Ho was sorry the leader of the .Ommaitiou had not gone more deeply - into the land proposals that evening. He thought that Mr Massoy's eloquence carried him sometimes beyond tho ’ bounds' which' he ought to go on a political platform, Mr Massey: Tell me one occasion. ■ ». The Minister referred to Mr MosaeyV statement at. a social . gathering m I Auckland that tho Government attempt- | ed to vote A£so a year each to two deputy chairmen of committee,' How w did Mr Massey arrive r at that? Every member was in receipt of 'ah 'honorarium of «£3OU per annum because. he, was » member, and it was proposed ?that fhero should bo added to that sum the amount of .£SO each to the deputy chairmen for carrying out those duties. Did Mr Hat" sey now say he, was correct? Mr Massey: I nevet said go. Mr McNab: "Is that not .the- key <rf all his criticism, v-He says he did hot say co, but ne takes’ mighty fine car© that they go away with tho impression/' (Laughter and applause.) Tho Ministar said tint Mr Massey had,made another misstatement. this time about endowments in Otago. At Stratford he ’d©* • clared that the Government bad had ta come to the rescue of.-. Otago University by buying its endowments at the nominal value of the land. The fact was that a BUI was brought in to guarantee to the > University the rent it was then getting lor the • endowments, and; if when tho leases fell duo they wore let at a lower figure, the country was to provide the balance. The scheme was divided into periods of ten years each, and the excess of ono period was to make up the deficiency of another. Would aoyv ono who heard Mr Massey at St ratio rd gather from his speech that this was ths position? People who were there paid their impressions were quite different, - and this was one of the things he'cb* jectod to.

BUYING UP FREEHOLD. The Government; was accused of going iu for nationalisation of the lend, hut one of the things he had pointed out ia bringing forward the original Bill wa* that all lands disposed of under the Land for Settlements Act must be ureter the leasehold tenure. At that dm* they had expended four and a half milliens, and it hud since amounted to five millions, which sum was devoted to no other purpose whatever than to terminate the freehold ieiiure and put the land upon leasehold tenure for ail time. Th» Government's first proposals in the Land mll wero Co end* that position and no longer go into the market to take land lor settlement, terminating the freehold and substituting the lea6eho"d. They brought down proposals to compel the large landowners to put their land into the market to swell the quantity of land which was being disposed of under the freehold tenure. This was one of the points which struck those on the other side with its full force. Large numbers of them were'sympathetic at heart with those tvho owned the vast estates aimed at. A man owning «£275,0ud worth of land at unimproved value would have had to pul; .£225,000 worth into the market. If there wag one thing upon-.'which the country was unanimous it was-that these large Estates would have to be reduced. CONVERSION TO THE FREEHOLD. "It is wild that we have thrown tip the sponge because we have ottered the freehold to the lea'c-in-perpetuity holders. W hat was our position when the first Bill was brought down and when it came from committee? i- It was contemplated in connection with every one of those leases-in-perpetuity thfifc the freehold should be* given in connection with them/’ The only'-difference between the original and the present scheme was that leaee-in-perpetuity tenants, - instead of having to go into the open market to secure their freehold, would get it under* arbitration, which would decide the price at the present value. » Mr Massey: Ohl Mr MuXab went on to explain that if

the ton ant refused to take tlio land at its present value lio could pay pu per cent, of the capital cost and free himself from all condition-;* and restrictions. Tins was the somersault the Government had clone iu connection uitii fiivinß the leaso-in-perpetuity tenants the trochoid! If the oripiiial system of auctioning had been followed very little more than the original value would hrve been obtained for tho Irechold. The [eaao-in-perpetuity tenants, when they took up the land, could have then purchased it. but they preferred the lease* hoUl. Nov.- the Government said if timy wanted tho freehold they in list pay the present value. What Government had at so early a at ape in tho session placed before the House so many important volley measures? The present Governmeat was entitled to credit for what it hud done in that respect. LIMITATION BY TAXATION.

Turning to the limitation proposals, the Minister said that with an cetato valued at £310,090 tho land tax rose to 2d in the AT under tho original tax, but under the new' proposals the tax upon an estate valued at £290,000 would have risen to just double the quoted figure. He would Uko members to notice that the tax in future would be levied upon town as well as country lands, with the exception of business sites. This was a great advance, the importance of which wa* not realised. It would result in speedier subdivision than under tho limitation prop<wal«, which might not have forced much land into tho market for six or iaveu years. Some members thought the tax was not heavy enough, and that it darted too high. (Hear, hear.) A good many members evidently thought so, but ho wished to make it clear that tho power of the Crown to take land at land tax valuation would ensure that valuations were put,up to the proper height. Ho hoped tho House would pause before it increased tho scale of taxation until they saw the effect of the Government propoals. Ho believed the effect would he marvellous in providing land for the landless, and bo a material factor in the settlement of tho colony's land. There was a distinction between the large areas of Crown land in the North Island and the large estates the Government was buying. Tho struggles of the pioneer settlers wore past. ' A great deal of this land was fairly well improved, requiring more capital for a man going 'into possession than a man going on Crown land, and while it might bo that leasee for sixly£ix years should be granted for one dacis of land, ho did not seo any reason why there should not bo shorter leases for land under the Lands for Settlement Act. Thw country had gone to a groat deal of risk in tho purchase of these ■large estates; through good management tho risk had been reduced, and some of tho purchases showed a large profit. But it was a venturesome scheme at its •first inception, though at the present time these estates were bringing a handsome profit into tho Treasury of tho colony. Ho did not think they ought to keep down the profits if they could he obtained from these farms. Take tho case of disposing of lands for settlement sections by ballot: They knew that a great number of men who were successful at the ballot disposed of their sections a day or two afterwards, getting for them, a great sum of money. The result was that tho man coming in afterwards did not get a chance, and the successful man in the first instance pocketed the profits that ought to go to the Crown. Ho believed that by disposing of these sections by tender, and under a tenure that would give a man a thirty-three years' renewable lease, they would be able to deal with a largo number of estates that they could not get possession of at present-

ENDOWMENTS. In regard to their endowment proposals: As the Bill stood when it was orientally brought down and referred to the Lands Committee, the proposal for the, endowments was not quite so comprehensive as it was in the Bill as.it enme bade from committee. As the Bill came back members would remember that tho option was taken away from all the lands proposed to be set aside for endowments. That was done on on amendment moved by • the • member for Waipawa when the Bill was going through the Lands Committee. At that lime tho endowment area would have covered 16,800,000 acres. Comparisons had been made between tho areas proposed to he set apart: as a matter of Pact, the area contained in the Otago land district was more than double the area included in the Auckland land district. The area had now been reduced to 0,000,000 acres, which had been distributed through the various land districts in proportion to the total Crown lands available in these particular land districts. In Auckland the area was only 500,000 acres, and in the. South Island very much more was available. That was the reason'why a very largo proportion of the land had to be found south of Cook Strait. '

NATIVE LAND. Native land would be disposed of under the optional tenure. Tho option was contained in the last year when ho moved the second reading. Mr Massey: That's only quibbling. Mr McNab: It was in tho Bill when I moved the second reading. The whole of the land® purchased from natives, if that Bill had got on the statute-book, were to be disposed of under the _ optional tenure. In connection with the balance of Crown lands not contained in the endowments, these would be disposed of under the general provisions of the Land Act, and land suitable for close settlement, a® decided by the Land Boards, would be disposed of under the option, the tenant® having the choice between cash, occupation with right of purchase, and- renewable leases. So that, on the whole, when one cam© to look at the alteration in the Government's proposal® from those of last year, they proposed to give the tenant in possession an opportunity of getting the freehold at the present value. If he did not like that, then he could go up to 90 per cent. —that still remained in the Bill. SETTLEMENT LANDS.

Ct was not proposed fo give the right of acquiring the freehold of lands for settlement lands. There were many reasons operating in that case which did not operate in regard to Crown lands. So long as they had to borrow money from tho London moneylender in order to buy land for the people they ought to say that these lands should only be got under the leasehold system. . Mr W. Fraser:. Why? Mr McNab: From the very fact that the State has to do it with borrowed money. Mr. Fraser: That is no argument. Mr McNab: The very fact that the State has had to buy back these lands as a declaration to the world that that form of tenure has been a failure- That was a very strong reason why the State ought now. to get possession of them once more. Ho did not think that the leader of the Opposition was acting fairly in trying tc suggest that the Ministry was playing into the hands of the towns, and that it was not doing as much for the country settler. lie did profess to have a great deal of interest in the man who was tilling the soil, and he believed there were some of the leader of the Opposition's strongest supporters who had admitted on the public platform that, at any rate, whatever their hostility to the present Minister of Lauds was, that in connection with the Minister of Agriculture they had nothing but support to give to any of the proposals ho brought forward. The leader of the* Opposition had criticised a speech made by his colleague, the Hon. IJr Findlay, and had referred to the Socialistic tendencies of the present Government. What his colleague had endeavoured to show was that the Government was Socialistic to tho farmer every time, and, particularly, that tho great Socialistic department was the great Agricultural Department. If any person had ground for complaint in this respect it was certainly not tho farmer, to whom they had used Socialism on every occasion to back him up. He (Mr McNab) was not one of those frightened by names descriptive of a political party or anyone else, and if the support that had

: been given by tho Government to the agricultural community was called Socialism. then ho was a Socialist every time they liked to bring the question up. They readily admitted the soft impeachment, and it mu*t bo admitted by every person.

j SOCIALISM IN A YOUNG COUNTRY. Some form of Socialism was absolutely necessary in a young country like this. They could not afford to follow the mistakes of older countries. They were not going to do that, and if further protection was needed, and it was found that they ought to do the tame thing at sea, then the Government would not hesitate to do it, if the same results cou;d bo got at sea as on tho laud. (Hear, hear.) Call it Socialism or anything they liked, that form of Socialism was absolutely necessary to carry on the welfare of a young country. They saw m other parts of the world that they were not frightened by this cry of Socialism, whore the State stood behind the producer to enable him to get in the best markets of the world in the best possible way. When they had to compete against countries doing that it would be folly for us to expect that our producers could go on without State assistance. Any political party that tried vo keep up the cry that this country was running towards Socialism, and that they Ixad to stem the present direction of tne current would come to tho same end as did the political party iu Australia which had only one cry, "Anti-Socialism,” when it did not know what Socialism was. Where was that party now? All over the Australian States the feeling was—whatever they liked to call it—that the power of tho State should bring the resources of the country behind the producer and put him iu a iwsition that he could laud tho best of nis products in the best markets of the world at the lowest figure—a form of Socialism that would always bo the policy of this country. There had been talk of certain members of the Opposition being carried out of the House on a stretcher before these proposals were curried, but tnere was evidently a demand for these proposals, judging from tho trend of events, and tho Opposition realised that these proposals were going to bo placed on tho statute book before the end of the session.

Mr Massey: Our proposals. Mr McNab: Well, if they arc your proposals, 1 hope you will accompany the Ministry into flic lobby and endeavour to put them on the statute book. (Laughter.) The possible revenue from endowments he estimated at .£75,000 per annum, but that was only to-day. In time townships would spring up on these areas, the revenue from which would be more than double the expenses of education and old ago pensions, (Applause.) AN EXPLANATION. Mr Massey, rising to a personal explanation, said in regard to his statements with reference to the deputj--chnirmon, that ho had not made the statement imputed to him by the Minister. What ho had said was that the deputy-chairmen were to receive .£650 salary, this taking the place of their honorarium. On every occasion ho went out of his way to make that clear—except one, when ho was limited for time. Regarding the Otago University endowments, what he had said was that four years ago tho University had asked to be relieved of its endowments, and that was correct. Mr McNab denied that the Government gave to tho University the nominal value of its lands. OTHER SPEAKERS.

Mr James Allen said he could not say the Minister for Lands had made as good a speech as last year. There was some reason for it. He had got on somebody, clse's trousers, somebody else's shirt. During the recess he had been conducting n land campaign, and had taunted the Opposition party with not doing so. The Opposition had not found it necessary to do so. The Minister for Lands had done it for them. Regarding the question of misrepresentation, even tho Minister was not infallible. Only that evening he had said that the lease-in-perpetuity could be changed into the freehold. lie had led the House to believe that he referred to >il leases-in-perpe-tuity holders. Mr Allen proceeded to deal with the matter of the endowments of tho Otago University, and said that if there had been misrepresentation on one side then there had certainly been misrepresentation on tho part oi the Minister, as tho Otago University had asked the Government to take over its country land endowments. Dealing with the land question, what had struck him most in the debate, and which was more prominent last year, was the terrible fear Ministers had for the Land for Settlement scheme. That same note had been prominent that night.. There had been so many changes in the Land Bill that ‘ it was very difficult to know where they were. s The Minister had abandoned the principle of the limitation from .£15,000. The optional provisions were impossible, and were intended to be. The object of the Bill was that the freehold would bo done awety with. The Government was going on buying up estates day by day until they would get them all. Touching the question < of finance, there were many matters in tho Statement which the Op-n'tio-n had been asking for and which at last been conceded. He repeated his criticism of the financial basis of the superannuation funds. He was afraid ho could not alter his previous criticism of the railway administration. The earnings were not sufficient to make up the amounts of interest on the money borrowed to build the roads. He die! not know whether they were paying os much interest this as last year, but what had struck him most was the enormous increase which had taken place in tho cost per train mile for fuel and coal. They should get a better return than they were' doing. Ho mentioned items of tho proposed tariff which he considered should, be imported free for the benefit of both the manufacturers, and consumers. He approved the proposal to increase the contribution to that portion of the fleet of the Mother Country which came here, but if that were to be taken as an indication that thev wore not going.xto accept the example o‘f Aiistralia, then ho did <not think It would be wise. More attention should be paid to the defence of their harbours while at the same time they were contributing to the navy. He hoped that the volunteering movement would receive more sympathy in the future, but he was not sure that even then it would be effective. Mr Wilford characterised Mr Allen's speech as being as dull .as *.i wet, drizzling morning. No question of national policy could bo settled by satire, and if no more able arguments wore advanced than those of the previous speaker, ho did not think they would hit very, hard. There certainly had been modifications in tho land policy, but he did not think they went far enough. Regarding the superannuation schemes, every actuary who was asked to report on such schemes must declare adversely upon them, and no actuary living could accurately judge as to the stability of such schemes. When mud was thrown some of it would stick, and such remarks that had been made were ' likClv to cause distrust—distrust brought ' about by innuendo and assertion with absolute want of proof, the same as the fair name of New Zealand had been sullied on the London Stock Exchange. With reference to the land proposals, he regarded the leasehold ns the stepping stone to the freehold. Where he dinen with the Government was tnat ho wanted the option to be given. The capital value of tho freehold land held by comSanies and private individuals, excluding rown lands and lease® held by natives, local bodies, churches, friendly* societies, etc,, amounted to .£161,771,758, held by 128,000 individuals. He contended that the Government had made a mistake in starting tho graduated tax at ,£4o,oWi. They should have started it at <£20,000. He could not see where the Minister was going to get the big return he expected to receive from the tax. but if the fr'-dt was reduced to .£20,000 he could expect to get the revenue he at present anticipated. With a surplus of .£750.000 it was expected to make up deficiencies which would take place in the Customs, but it could not be expected that the

proceeds from tho graduated tax would be? sufficient to meet it. He congratulated the Minister on what ho had don? in regard to the absentee proposals. The success of the "refractory” land settlement depended entirely upon tho udminMtiviUon of the Laud Board*, which he considered should be elective. Ho would support the giving of the freehold et the original value, but there un;,-;t be a phis to the original value. He congratulated the Minister on making the endowment nine minimi and said he was perfectly satisfied the non-;;* would welcome it, but lie did not wish the Government to create that endowment by picking out the eyes of the Ciown laud* of .the colony, leaving tho balance to bo taken up under the optional system. At midnight the debate was adjourned until next day.