THE POLICE COMMISSION.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXVII, Issue 5667, 15 August 1905, Page 3

THE POLICE COMMISSION.

SITTING IN WELLINGTON, . INTERESTING EVIDENCE. 9 UPER VISION O'F THE FORCE. SOME SUGGESTED IMPROVEM ENTS. Tho Folic; Commission, consisting of Messrs H. VV. Bishop, S.M. of Christchurch, ami I- W. Boynton, Public Trustee, of Wellingioii, appointed by Uio Government to inquire into (InDunedin police scandals, ;md. lurllier, into tin; efficiency or otherwise of Hie present system of control and supervision of tin; force generally, commenced its IVellington sitting at Hie Magistra-to’s (oi! rt Buildings ye-terd-ay. The Commissioner of Police (Mr W • .Oinnie) was present. IV ESTPOI IT CO N STAHL E' S EVTD ENCE. Constable Hugh Chisholm, .statioiK d at Westport, said ho joined the fore;; in August, 1882. He was in JJnncdin until 1831, heing transferred to South Dunedin, and thru to Tort Clialmoia. Latterly, whilst ho was in Dunedin, tho sergeants could always lie depended upon. In fact, on one occasion witness was reported for not meeting tin; sergeant on his beat. Witness novel board of any kind of theft by tin- police force whilst he was in Dunedin. Tho police there were almost strangers i.o him, and principally young men. am in his experience there he never heaid of anything wrong. Mir Bi-hep: On the occasion you wore reported, what was the result ? Witness: Inspector Tardy took tin; norgeant’s side. Ido asked the latter a ho had told mo to meet him, and he replied that ho had. Mr Toyiiton; Was it the practice in Dunedin in your time lor the sergeants to make appointments with the men?—Yes. Witness requested to ho allowed to state a personal grievance. Commissioner Dumie raised an objection. , , . . , Mr Poynton remarked that personal (grievances (lid not come within the references of tho Commission. Mr Bishop: The references are definite and proscribed, and it is perfectly useless to attempt to take personal grievances, because we could not even report upon them. Wo did admit in .Dunedin what might have appeared to bo a personal grievance, but it boro distinctly and directly upon the supervision and control of the torce. • Witness; In Auckland there was a grievance between the inspector and nub-inspector. • Mr Toynton: That might be said to have grievously interfered witli the ipieetion of supervision. Witness: I have a great grievance to explain; but if you object. Commissioner Dinnie: I do not actually object. I think it unwise. Mr Poynton; Well, what is your grievance? Witness: A regular conspiracy. I was charged with being drunk or nnilcr the influence of liquor. Commissioner Dinnie; But that was n long time ago.—About two years. .1 have been twenty-three years in the force, and was never accused before or ijtor that of any offence.

Mr Bishop: The matter was dealt with at tho time, was it not? —Yes, but only as a matter of privilege. 1 want tho black mark standing against ,tno wiped off the records. Commissioner Dinnie; I shall ho pleased to receive representations from oho witness.

Mr Bishop: That is properly a matter for the Commissioner to deal with. He docs not consider himself bound irrevocably by the action of his predecessor. From what I know of Mr Dinnie, I should say he would give your caso proper consideration. Lay the whole facts before him, and let him deal with Iliem on proper linos. Witness: Very good. In answer to the Commissioner, tho (fitness stated that tho years ho was in Dunedin when ho thought there were arrangements between tho sergeants and constables wore from 1834 to 1893. There were thou four or five beats, but as to that his memory was not quite clear. Ho knew when tho sergeant was likely to visit him. There wero about ■three visits a night. A DEPARTMENTAL MATTER.

Constable John McDonald, stationed ■at Westport, stated that he was transferred to the force from the armed constabulary in 1884. since when he had boon in Westland all the time. Three sno’nths ago the sergeant at his station (Sergeant Cullen) reported himself sick, ■and went home. During his absence a ship’s officer reported four deserters, and witness left the station with a countable to search, for them, and was out until midnight. He then got a letter from tho inspector asking him why ho had left tho station without leave. Witness considered ho was in charge of the station, and was only doing his duty. Tie was not punished.

Commissioner Dinnio said this matter ,vis purely a departmental one, and hardly in the terms of the Commission. SUPERVISION IX WELLINGTON.

Sergeant Cullen, of Westport,_said he joined the force in August, 1877. He was in Christchurch as Court orderly for nearly eighteen years. Ho was promoted to Wellington on street duty, Mid then went,.to Westport.

Mr Bishop; You wero In charge of the night police whilst in Wellington?— Ves

Are the beats here good?—They are •orv long. Too long?—Yes. I was often almost too tired to walk after going my round. How many times did you visit tho men?—Sometimes three times—sometimes more.

Then to particular men you gave attention?—Somo men I had no trouble with.

Did yon have any hand in arranging the men on their beats?—Yes. Tho duty roll was made out by the inspector, but the sergeant had tho option of ■hanging a man if he thought proper.

Were your visits of such a nature that the men knew where to expect you ?—Oh, no. Then wo might call them surprise dints ?— I Yes.

Did you never make appointments to meet tho men?—Never. I have heard of it being dome in Christchurch. Would tho use of bicycles in Wellington by sergeants bo of any assistance? —Oh, yes, both as to speed and because they are very silent. Can yon tell us anything regarding tho supervision by tho inspector and sub-inspector of the sergeants?—l have met tho inspector on tho streets at 3 s’clock in the morning. I have not

seen tho sub-inspector, but havn heard! that lie was mil. ! If the heats Imre aro too long wlmt ; remedy would yon suggest?—The only; one I'm*, v.-ould bo to place an -l»al ..MtnlK-r of sergeants at Mount Cook, and divide (he city. That would gye 1 1.0111 plenty of work; still, they would; have more time to look after the men. Seme men did not require it. j Witness Haiti that in |W™“| n K ; Iheimln it would he well it M.11.L. s ; would not recommend men lor admis-; sie.-i to Urn force. . ~ i Ur Bishop: Do you know that, Md 1.8. sdo so?-Oh, yos. 1 huvo seen .

But veil wouldn't object to a man having "a recommendation simply be(■ausf it CHmu from an M.11.K.. ; ; not, if it were given us from a piuaU genUcman. r IVbat you want to say, on!} I ■ up) - yon scarcely care to, is that J ou "" ' v like to see political influence aboil, he I. When yon .say (bat. you have no knowledge that it does exist. U y easy enengh to imagine it does, hut it is quite another thing to say it docs.--A man was taken from my district, and 1 had no knowledge that he was /?“Jp" list until ho was m the IVellington levee. This was about a year ago. Mr Toynton: He might have had H rorcnc.es from elsewhere.-I Hunk inquiries should tie. made rigdt up to that is tho practice now?—

reply to Inspector Edison, w'tness said that when ho was in IVeUin H ton (here was no hard and fast rule to make specified visits at night. If ho thought mm man needed supervision, he would go to see to him, even if he had to neglect others for several hours. Mr Bishop; You had practically a- free hand? —Ves. . ~ . , How often did yon visit tho watchhouse’—That would depend upon my visits to the men. Sometimes at midnight sometimes not till 3 o’clock. Then tho watchhousu would bo without supervision?—Yes, except for tho watchhonsc-keepcf. And ho is practically alone therer—Yes; I saw in the proceedings of this Commission that a proposal lias been made to place a sergeant in charge ot watchousos. That is a good idea. Supposing a constable should bo brought in drunk, it would bo better for a sergeant to bo there rather than another constable. It would also bo better in case of a serious otfonco being committed. In further examination by the inspector, witness said the night sergeant frequently dropped in at the watchhousc unexpectedly.

INSPECTOR ELLISON’S EVIDENCE. John W. Ellison, inspector in charge of the Wellington district since April, . 1902, stated that the number of constables available in tbo city for street duty, when there wore no vacancies, was twenty-four at Lambton quay, three at Manners street, seven at Mount Cook, and three at Newtown (including tho constable in charge). There wore twelve heats worked from Lambton quay under ono sergeant, and six beats on day duty. At Mount Cook there wore two night-duty beats, and at South Wellington one. Tho total number of constables on tho night-duty beats, when all the stations were full-handed, was fifteen.

Mr Poynton: Aro there sufficient constables in Wellington?—Probably not, but tho greatest trouble here is tho want of accommodation both at Lambton quay and Mount Cook. Have yon made representations on that subject?—Ves; I have made them ever since I came here. If Mount Cook Station wore properly provided with accommodation and equipped, there should bo more men there on night duty. At present tho accommodation was tho worst that could possibly bo conceived. Twelve men and ono sergeant in charge wero hardly sufficient for complete supervision. Tho sergeant had to work very hard to carry i out his duties. Ono or two Wellington j sergeants used their own bicycles. If | this were a regular thing, they should , not bo expected to pay for tho bicycles. There wore five real beats. Tho others wero patrols, or long beats, taking from an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half to get over. When witness first camo to Wellington, ho saw a suggestion of visiting by sergeants at regular intervals, but he stopped it. Ho did not think it was going on now. Ho told one sergeant he would rather have ono good visit than three pre-arranged ones. Witness considered that sergeants had tho making of constables in a manner. There was, however, a great diversity in the men. If some were worth 7s a day others wero worth £1 at least. Mr Poynton; It has been suggested to us that if men were taken into tho force oti probation, they could be got rid of if necessary.—Y'es. I find that sometimes when wo get rid of a man we get a worse one. What class of men aro offering now? —Not tho class who take to the force through a dosiro to he policemen. Yarn can’t raako a policeman unless the man wants to be one. What is tho reason that a better class of applicants does not obtain?— Some say that times aro too prosperous in other walks of life.

Regarding your own duties?—Tho clerical work at the station is tho greatest possible incubus. YVork is piled oil to tho police by all departments.

In fact, you aro quite a clerk?—Yes, tho sleeves of my coat are worn out. Tho clerical work is double what it was fifteen years ago. Tho Railway Department alone will sometimes keep two of our men going looking for lost parcels. That makes it hard for tho inspector? —Yes, hard for him to look after the force as he should do in tho interests of tho district.

What can yon recommend? —Well, it is a largo question. A great deal of my work must go to tho sub-inspector —a lot of it not bona fide police-work—-and X take it that as long as I am inspector lam responsible for it. , Could not you and the sub-inspector bo relieved in a great measure by some internal arrangement in the office?— I think tho district clerk should attend to a great deal of the work, ily clerk has as much as he can do.

Can you suggest anything?—Only that another inspector should bo appointed, and that one of us should do tho clerical and tho other tho outside work.

What about a station-sergeant? Mr Bishop: Of course, ho would be specially selected as suitable for tho Witness: I think station-sergeants are absolutely necessary, and I thought that when sub-inspectors were appointed there would bo station-sergeants. Witness had been on street-duty prac-

lically every night since he came to WMli'ngton.' lb; srr.yvd out until nearly 11 oclncl;, and thought that long enough. Ho put in on rn average ihirteen hours a day, and so did the sub -inspector- Jio visited out-M.iu.ions a.-, often as he could, bur not as oiten as ho ought to. ito knew of one man who was .admitted to tho force who had twice been convicted for offences. The consiablo who made inquiries on this loan's application was perfunctory. Witness always tried to give these matters his ik-;sonal attention. Mr Toynton: Wo have had statements that thieving by the police is going on in other placets. HaVo yon heard any rumours of it here? —No, nor any suggestion of it, and I don't think it at ail probable nor possible that it could go on either in IVellington or Christchurch—or in Auckland, either—at present.

Mr Bishop: Oh, ono who was a thiol was in Christchurch.— I heard ol one constable there putting his band in a window and stealing .some apples. From what I knew of him at the time, I believed that man would prove to be McDonald.

Where did you hear of it?—At Christchurch.

From a member of the force? —No. It did not come from what I considered a reliable .source. The reason 1 thought it would bo McDonald was because I mistrusted him, as he had previously been caught drinking. It lias boon stated by four constables, all stationed in Christchurch in your time, that it was common talk that thieving was going on there amongst tho police.—l never heard of it. Mr Poynton: Doors aro frequently left open in Wellington, aro they not? —Wo occasionally find them open. Aro auv warehouse keys left with tho police ? —There are two in our charge. I may say that a number of shopkeepers leave goods outside their shops, and these aro brought to tho police station and restored. Asked by Mr Toynton bow many men ho*could take on without alteration to present accommodation, Inspector Ellison replied that it was already necessary to rent a house for twelve men. Not only Lambton quay, but Mount Cook station wanted enlarging. In a few years it would bo absolutely necessary to have proper accommodation. At the present time tho lack of it interfered a good deal with supervision of the men. As to whether tho .creation of tho office of sub-inspector had been advantageous to tho force, witness said tho sub-inspector was doing the work formerly done by two men. In addition to his other duties, the sub-inspector had a, lot of extra work thrown on him in tho way of correspondence. The inspector had got to sem all that was going on in his district. But there was a lot of formal correspondence which could, bo attended to by someone else. Ho would suggest that the district clerk should only forward to tho inspector important correspondence at his discretion, keeping back valueless matter. Ho thought tho district dork shouul bo a sergeant. Witness did not favour general classes for the instruction of constables in their duties, as ho considered ono practical lesson was better than fifty theoretical ones. Hr Bishop; Have you found it advantageous for tho chief-detective to prosecute in Court P—Decidedly, yes. It is a good plan if you have a capable man. , . , You should not have a man as chief detective if ho is not capable—But we have a capable man here. It is not done in Dunedin. —I was not aware of it. . . Tho relations between the sub-inspec-tor and yourself aro cordial, I suppose? Oh, yes. 1 novel- had a quarrel with any sub-inspector or anyone else. But where friction occurs you think it should bo remedied?—lt would bo very unpleasant. It is not a question of unpleasantness. It is a question of the efficiency of tho force.—Well, I’m tho best of friends with tho sub-inspector and tho men. If witness knew that sergeants under his control wero in tho habit of paying visits so that tbo men could fairly accurately expect when to &eo them, he would very likely lie in wait. If ho absolutely know it was going on, ho would report it to tho Commissioner. He did not, however, believe in proxy evidence. Ho had 'spent many late nighti in looking into complaints of men in the station, and always personally thrashed out any important matter reported to him. To Commissioner Dinnie; Witness knew- Mr Dinnie was not responsible for tho transfer of McDonald from Christchurch to Dunedin. Two extra sergeants were needed at 'Mount Cook. He was frequently short of men, so much so that one constable often had to do two beats. IVellington needed two more sergeants and four more constables. The probation system might work all right if on dismissing a man at tho end of six months they could got another suitable one. Extra supervision was necessary in Wellington if tho staff was to bo increased. If not. he could do no more. There was such a thing as having too much police. Y'ou don’t believe in such a thing as too many ranks?—No. When a man alleges ho has been assaulted and a complaint is laid against the police in tho matter, what would you do?—lf the complainant was satisfied for me to deal with the matter, I would institute full inquiries. If not, I would refer him to the Courts.

As to Incompetent men,witness thought inspectors ought to report them, but they wanted an accumulation of circumstances in such cases. They should bo able to say definitely that a man was hopeless before reporting him. Then they should report him at once. The inspector and snb-inspoetor hero had a great deal more to do than in Christchurch fifteen years ago or in Auckland eight years ago. WORK OF A SUB-INSPECTOR. John O’Donovan, sub-inspector for tho Wellington district, said ho had filled that office since 1892. In addition to station duties, ho had office duties to perform, the latter being very heavy. His first duty in tho day was to attend to cases brought in the night before, and to tho out-stations. Ho had to bo at Court at 10 o’clock every morning, and was sometimes there all day, but tho usual time he left on tho three Police Court days was about noon. After tho Court, ho was engaged in office work for tho greater part of tho afternoon, and in attending to citizens of all classes, who were calling all day long. V ery few of these could bo attended to by the watch-house keeper. In tho evening tho correspondonce seemed to bo never-ending. Also people then found themselves free, and seomed to think it tie most suitable time to call at tho police station. Owing to callers, it was sometimes impossible to touch his correspondence until half-past nine at night. His work averaged thirteen hours a day, and it was very rarely that he could got on to the streets. Again, it was ‘inconvenient that ho should bo out at tho same time as the inspector. If a station-sergeant were appointed, a great many of witness’s duties could go to that officer, namely, tho constant supervision of prisoners, and p£ the

w a tchh ous c- k t-c per, attending to matters the watch lion re-keeper could not attend to on account of callers, to tho men going cut on their beats, or coming in, to escorts, and to emergency cuTis at tho station. If he were thus relieved by tho appointment ol a stai-tion-sargeJiir, witness would -bo abie not only to conduct cases in Court, but to control the inc.i on the streets, and at tho out-stations also. At present he could do practically nothing of this. It was essential to have station-scr-goants. An extra sergeant was also required to take charge of the station at night. This was essential for tho safe discharge of nolico duties in h:g cities. Two of tho Wellington sergeants wero first-class men —excellent disciplinarians, and just the typo that was wanted. Tho third was a comparatively new arrival. As far as he could say, tho system of supervision and control in Wellington was perfectly satisfactory, having in view the shortness of men.

Witness proceeded to refer to the necessity for the inspector and himself living near the police station, and tho difficulties accompanying the situation. Ho had, lie said, had to make two moves, and pay the expenses out of his own pocket, to get near. Ho paid rent equal to a quarter of Iris whole salary, namely, £7t;, whilst his house-allow-ance was £36. Ho was thus paying double what ho drew for thq purpose.

Mr Bishop; Do you think the subinspector should iivo near the station? —Yes.

Regarding open doors referred to by tho previous witness, Mr O’Donovaii said tho invariable practice was lor a sergeant to go next day with tho constable to tho particular promises whore tho door had been found open, and get an assurance that all was correct. 11 a station-sergeant were appointed, witness would willingly instruct tho men. Ho could, for instance, give thorn a proper and necessary knowledge of all tho city by-laws, and instructions for conducting small cases in Court. 11, however, extra accommodation were not provided at Lambton quay, nothing could bo done, it was, ho found, no use making representations on the subject. Mr Bishop; Y'ou could not have a more perfect opportunity than this for full publication of the facts. There was, continued witness, no reason in tho world to suppose that any thieving was going on hero by the police. Tho only case of tho kind ho could recollect in IVellington was in 1884, when a constable was found witJi a pair of gloves in his pocket at a fire. Tho man was promptly dismissed.

To Commissioner Dinnie; IVas certain that with a station-sergeant iio could exercise more supervision over tho men. An educational class would, ho considered, bo beneficial to young constables, and drill would be advisable, if they had room for it. Mr Bishop; There is a tremendous lot of slovenliness in tho force all through the colony. Some of the men soem to bo unable to stand up. Commissioner Dinnie; A little drill would shape them up to it. Mr Bishop : It would. Commissioner Dinnie: Y'ou find Wellington an expensive place to live in?— Very. Y'our allowance is not large enough? —I should like a little more.

Y'ou aught to draw the attention of the authorities to the facts.—lt might then happen that I would be shifted, which would not he convenient to me with my family. I think inspectors and sub-inspectors at least should have free houses.

Mr Bishop; Ah, hut that might also apply to other branches of tho public service.

Commissioner Dinnie (to witness): I daresay the Commissioner feels the same on tho subject ns you do. Your system of supervision hero is so good that no thieving could go on?—IVo can’t make men honest any more than banking or othon institutions can.

Air Bishop; But you can have a perfected system of control. IVc have found that in Dunedin men wero able to be off their boats all night, and that the watchhouse-kcopor could leave tho station without anyone being tho wiser. "Witness said there was nothing to prevent tire watchhouso-kceper being inattentive to his duties, to say the least, even though there was more supervision now than years ago. A sergeant ought to be in charge of the watchhousc. Sometimes they found a constable and watchhouse-kecper had a difficulty in deciding what offence a man had committed.

Air Bishop; Tho constable surely knows what ho has arrested a man for? —Not always. That is, ho does not know what to charge him with. Air Bishop; Oh, purely a technical difficulty. Inspector Ellison; No matter what supervision you have on night duty, is it not necessary that you should have energetic sergeants?—Y'cs.

Aro they not tho back-hone of the supervision of tho force?—They certainly arc, especially tho ono on night duty. If there wero a school of instruction or drill, you would have to take the men off duty to attend?—Y’es. Only night duty men could ho sent to drill. That would mean that they would be practically working overtime for an hour and a half at least?—Yes.

You and I got on very well, I suppose?'—Very well. Mr Bishop: It is quite refreshing to find some people getting on well together. Witness: Tho only cause of friction hero is the amount of work. Mr Bishop; Yes. You haven’t time to quarrel, I suppose? ' Inspector Ellison: Just what I was going to ask. Witness: There is no cause for quarrelling. A SERGEANT'S LOT. Sergeant George Hastie, now' stationed in Wellington, stated that there was too much work at night for one sergeant with twelve men, tho watch-house-keeper to look after, and the beats to go round. Ho rodo a bicycle—his own —and found it very convenient. There were only two men on beats on tiio Thorndon sido of the police station, all the rest being on the other side, up as far as Ingestro street. Witness paid 18s for house-rent, and was allowed 10s 6d. and then had to live a long way from the station. As sergeant, he got 6d a day more than before promotion, but was actually Is a day worse off than on a country station, and was harder worked. THE EDUCATION TEST.

Sergeant Douglas Gordon, in charge of the Mount Cook training station, said lie gave seven weeks’ instruction to recruits. Ho would insist upon a man passing the Fifth Standard before coming to the depot at all. The majority of the men who came to him wore of inferior education.

Mr Bishop: Would there bo any cl. cultv in getting men of higher education*?—l think so. The men arc very much underpaid, considering that the class of men we want must bo honest and thoroughly reliable. The recruits yon teach are mostly young colonial-born men, are the'^ —Vee, I

And ir, that tho result, in your experience. of our colonial national education?—Y'es. That is an extraordinary statement to make.—lN oil, that is my experience. Mr Toynton: It would seem that no effort is made to induce Sixth Standard men to join the force. Commissioner Dinnie: I suppose the men would pass the Fifth Standard examination on leaving you? Witness: No. The majority would only bo (it for the police examination, as far as I can see.

Commissioner: Diimio; What should bo done with applicants tor the force? —Full inquiries should be made, and tho inspector should bo held responsible if a man turned out a bad character. Ho should report himself to the inspector first. Mr Bishop: That wotud not give you his life history.—Very often his appearance would tell you what lie was. Air Toynton: Moses and AlcDonald wore men of good appearance. Commissioner Dinnie; You think if wo made it compulsory for a man to pass tho Fifth Standard wo should got a better class of men? —-Well, we might trv it. Tho present system has not been a success.

Inspector Ellison; Aro there not men who would make excellent constables even though they could not do a sum in arithmetic?—Probably, but the chances would bo better if the man had education. EXPENSIVE PROMOTION. Sergeant Routledge, of tho Wellington force, corroborated tho evidence of previous witnesses as to tho difficulties of sergeants in carrying out thoir duties, particularly at night. Ho complained that as sergeant ho only drew 6d per day more than tho men ho controlled. Y'et it took him eighteen years to attain his present rank. Ho paid £T for house-rent, and drew 10s Gd. so that ho was out of pocket through promotion. Constable Alichacl Murphy and Detective II illiam Edward Levis gave evidence as to tho efficient work done by the Wellington sergeants. ARE ROMAN CATHOLICS . FAVOURED? Constable William J. Simpson, on being called to give evidence, put a new complexion on the proceedings by bringing up tho question of preference in appointing commissioned officers. Ho stated that there was a grievance amongst certain members of the force regarding control and administration, namely, that preference had been given to Roman Catholics. Air Bishop; Aro you speaking of Wcllington ?—Of tho colony in general. It is a very serious allegation you aro making.—l can give you facts. In 1878 there wero 311 Protestants and 222 Roman Catholics in the force, and ot these seven Roman Catholics and two Protestants were appointed inspectors. It is felt that that is not a fair proportion. Air Poynton; But supposing the Protestants wero not qualified for tho positions?—Thou it speaks badly for the brains of tho Protestants! Air Poynton: Tho reason why there are so many Irishmen in the colony is that there are no manufactories in Ireland. The men who would otherwise work there come over hero and drift cither into hotel-keeping or tho police force. Tiro majority of the Roman Catholics here may bo men of superior education.—No, there is a strong Roman Catholic influence. Air Bishop: And what is tho cause of it?—l don’t know. Protestants i have told mo repeatedly that they fool soro i at having to “play second-fiddle” to men nob superior to them in ability. AlrPo}’nton: A man is not a judge of his own ability. Can you give us more facts?—Y'es. Well, do so. —An inspector, now in tho force, was appointed a first-class constable in 1893. Shortly afterwards ho was promoted and sent to Hastings, and he is now an inspector. Perhaps ho was a capable man.—l don’t know where he shone. Protestants only want thoir fair and just duo. Wouldn’t you say tho best men should bo appointed? It this question of religion wero to be gone into it would be very awkward.—Tho seven men I refer to can bo produced, and I am sure there is nothing extraordinary about thorn that they should have been given preference. Give us more facts. If there aro such suspicions abroad amongst members of tho force, they should be allayed if possible.—ln 1896 Messrs Pratt and Cullen wero appointed inspectors. They aro both Roman Catholics. In 1899 Alossrs Ellison and Gillies were appointed. They aro Protestants. In 1900 and onwards Messrs Ryan, AlcDonnell, Kyley, Wilson, and Alitchell wero appointed. The last five are Roman Catholics.

But that doesn’t go to show that these men were not the host available. —I have known them all intimately. Air Bishop: Have Alossrs Ellison and Gillies shown ability?—l don't know. They aro very good the whole lot of them !

Air Boynton : If all appointed happened to be Roman Catholics that might give rise to suspicions, but it does not say they wore not the best men.—lt must be admitted that tho Roman Catholics have got the best proportion of tho best positions in the force. Tho Commissioners: That doesn’t prove anything. Mr Bishop: It would bo highly improper to consider the religious persuasion of any man, in tho polico force or any other public service.—l have told you facts, and given you tho names of tho men.

Yes; but we havo only got your deductions.

Air Boynton: Inspector Cullen did remarkable service in connection with tho detection of sly grog-sellers in the King Country. No other man had been able to do what ho did.—Air Cullen is a very good policeman. Air Bishop: But do you think there are better men?—l haven’t been far in the colony. Air Boynton; In Auckland it was said that Inspector Cullen exercised his influence on behalf of a Roman Catholic, but the Commissioner has undertaken to prove that that is wrong. Air Bishop: Do you say there is a general impression in the force on the lines you mention? IV it ness: Yes.

Commissioner Dinnie: Can you mention the names of the constables who think Homan Catholics have had undue preference?—l would not liko to do that. Have you made representations to me op the subject?—No. Why not?—Well, I knew the Commission was coming here, and, besides, .it in'ght have been considered presumption on tny part as an inferior officer.

By the regulations, it was your duty to mention the matter to me. You have a little grievance of your own, have you nob?—No.

You applied for promotion once when in Taranaki?—Yes. You were transferred to Taranaki?— Yes. Was there a reason ?—There was. If I show you a return proving your statement to bo incorrect, would it

clear year mind of those impressions? —YTes. It would bo a good thing to so disabuse tho minds of those who have suspicious. None of tho_ constables in Wellington told mo this. Whore, then?—Oh, in Canterbury. Sub-Inspector O’Donovau proceeded to cross-examine witness, naming several prominent officers in tho force, and calling upon him to declare what thoir religion was. The witness was at sea as to most of them, though he classified ono or. two as Protestants, and some as Roman Catholics. No preference was given to Roman Catholics in joining tho police force. Ho thought the ventilation of this subject would do good.. Tho sub-inspector: Do you think it will do good to ventilate it without proofs? I consider it will do harm. Mr Poynton; A clamour was raised in New South Wales over the same sup-' position, and investigation proved it to bo wrong. If it is wrong here, it is our duty to bring facts to prove it so, aud if right, we should cbmc at tho truth. Air Bishop: I deplore, personally, tho raising of those questions—l have no sympathy whatever with them. If suspicions do exist, and a man has the courage to come forward and say so, tho matter should, however, he thrashed out in tho interests of tho service. Sub-Inspector O’Donovan asked that Commissioner Dinnie should be requested to furnish a record showing tho appointments of commissioned officers in tho force. Commissioner Dinnie: How far back shall I go for this return? The sub-inspector: To 1870 would do. Air Bishop: This only raises a question that can absolutely benefit no one at all. I have been for over thirtythree years in tho public service, and for twenty-fivo years a Alagistrate, and have como into intimate contact with tho police. I know both Homan Catholics and Protestants amongst them, and, in my experience, there aro good men in both creeds, and they discharge thoir duties to tho best ot their ability. If this feeling exists, it does so on tho part of some man who —rthougli he may not care to mention it —has a grievance. I do not behove that in this democratic country there is preference given in appointments in tho poiico force, and I shall bo very pleased if Air Dinnie can prove tho statements that have been made to be wrong. Commissioner Dinnie undertook to furnish the information required. Tho Commission adjourned until halfpast ten this morning.