PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume LXXI, Issue 4467, 21 September 1901, Page 7

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 20. Petition. The Hon. W. T. Jennings presented • petition from thirty-six Auckland ratepayers, praying against any alteration in the rating powers of the Borough of Auckland •without the question being submitted to the poll. Question*. The Hon. W. T. JENNINGS asked the Minister of Education whether the Government would set up a Select Committee, consisting of members of both branches of the Legislature connected with friendly societies, for the purpose of conferring with the representatives of friendly societies’ conferences as to the desirableness of amending the Friendly Societies Act, 1882. and also to consider in what way the usefulness of these societies might bo extended. In asking the question, Mr Jennings said there were 88,202 members of friendly societies in Now Zealand, and 27,569 cases of sickness had been re lieved, £36,179 having been paid for medicines. The funds were paying a 5.2 rate of interest, and the average of funds in New Zealand were higher than in any other colony, The Hon. W. O. WALKER said he agreed with the hon gentleman that the societies had a large sphere of useful ness, but he did nob think the time had yet come for Parliament to set up a committee to consider amendments of the Act. If the friendly societies brought proposals before the Government the Government would consider them. The Hon. H. TOMOANA asked the Minister of Education what steps were being taken to provide a railway siding for the convenience of Maoris living near Waipawa, Hawke’s Bay? The Hon. W. 0. "WALKER said the Government would be glad to meet any requirements of the Maoris, but owing to the grade on each side of the line it would bo impossible to stop the trains at the spot, and until the grades were altered it would be useless to put a siding there. The Waipawa station was nob very far from the pah, and a, footbridge for the convenience of Maoris had been laid on the Waipawa bridge. First Readings. A message was received from the House of Representatives, forwarding the following Bills, which had passed the Lower House !—Counties Act Amendment, Statutes Compilation Bill, Miners’ Right Fee Reduction Bill, Rabbit Nuisances Bill, and Shops and Shop Assistants. The Bills were nil read a first time, and the second readings made orders for the day for Wednesday next. Another message was received cover ing the Exportation of Arms, Mortgages of Land and Promissory Oaths Bills, and these , were also read a .first time, the second readings being made orders for the. day for next sitting day. Education Boards. The Hon. C. W, Walker moved the second reading of the Education Boards Election Bill. ■ The Bill provides that at every election Of a member of an Education Board the returning officer and every scrutineer shall, before entering on their re spective duties, sign a declaration to tho effect that he will faithfully and impartially perform his duties, and not disclose any fact connected therewith, such declaration being, free from stamp duty." Any returning officer giving, or protending to give, any information as to the state of the, poll, or making known auv vote, is rendered liable to a penalty not exceeding ■>£so. ’ / In moving this, the Minister said there had been a good deal of trouble under the old way, and frequently the result of tho pell was known before it was declared. Some- of the returning officers had not been conscientious enough to keep the matter to themselves.’

, The Hon Colonel PITT said he, would like to see provision for qualifications of members of Education Boards. For instance, it should.be a disqualification for any proposed member to have a blood relation on the staff of one of the Boards schools, or in the Board’s service. When the Bill was in committee ho would give members an opportunity of voting on this subject. Tho Hon. W. C. WALKER replied that he had hoard of such . cases as urged by the Hon. -Colonel Pitt, but that was under tho old style of consti-. tution. Boards were elected differently now, and he felt sure that a secret form of voting would do away with such com■"'nints.

The motion was carried on the voices •ud the committal of the Bill made an •'■'or of the day for next sitting day. The Council adjourned at‘ 3.15 p.m. i I 2.30 p.m. ofi Tuesday. : r ' HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 20. . Tho House met s, at 2.30 p.m., Mr Guinness in the chair. Leave of Absanooi Leave, of absence for one week wa* granted Ho Captain Rusgoll, on account of Illness* Cook and Other Islands. Tho Cook and" Other Islands .Govern* munt Bill, to provide temporarily , for tho government of the Cook and other Islands,‘was received by message from his Excellency the Governor, and road* first time, • Teachers’ Salaries. The Fublio School Teachers’ Salaries Bill, to remove anomalies in the staffing of the public schools and the payment of teachers, was received by message ffem the Governor, and read first time.

. Licensing Bill. Tho Licensing Act Amendment Bill was introduced by the Premier. I On the question of the first reading, Mr SEDDON said that he did not intend to introduce into this Bill large and debatable questions. It would he a Bill which would simply deal with technical difficulties in the working of tho .present Act, more especially in regard to the removal of licenses from one district to another. ne case came under his notice in which on application .had-been made for the removal of a license to a place forty miles away. Tho Legislature had not intended that a license should bo removed for a greater distance than a quarter of a mile. Another question that ought to. bo, dealt With was that of giving discretionary power to certain Magistrates in regard to endorsements. There was » difficulty o-' administering the law at present in this respect, and this was hampering tho police at the present time. An hon. member: What about tied houses P .

Mr SEDDON replied that on tho •i nion of tied bouses, there was also •! evasion. Then, in regard to the to"i'ist traffic, he thought that something be done similar to what is d.u— .tt- .lanmbr and the Hot Springs. J-. h: pqd that members on both sides o' the House would s*e that where evils -ro csisllng and a remedy was neces. eary, they ought t* forego the larger and

more debatable questions for the of having these defects remedied. Mr HERBIES and other members hoped that the present law in regard to the quorum of the Licensing Bench would be Mr WTTKF. asked the Premier whether ho intended t 0 deal with the question j of licenses in the King Country? | The PREMIER replied that this was a question for legislation outside of this Bill. If this question wero brought on to the floor of the House, it would take, a long time to get it through. _ j Mr ATKINSON urged that ourlicensing law should be put on the same footing as tho English law, in reference to trading Qut of hours, so that the customers should not escape punishment, as was I tho case under the present law. | Mr MASSEY considered that local: bodies might not to be burdened with, the Licensing Committees in districts where there were no licensed houses. , ' Mr FISHER, speaking in regard to 1 the point raised by Mr Atkinson, held that if wo adopted one portion of the : English Act, we ought also to adopt an- > other portion—section 24, which pen. i mitted the opening of public houses between 1 o’clock and 8 o’clock on Sunday afternoon. Would Mr Atkinson agree ; to tho introduction of this provision of the English Act, as well as the provision he had himself suggested? (Laugh- ' tor.') i Mr LAWRY held that Mr Fisher had : put Mr Atkinson into a comer. If they introduced one portion of the English Act, they must consistently introduce the whole of it. He pointed out that in England there was more drunkenness where the hotels wore closed on Sunday ( than in any other place in Great Britain. 1 Mr Lawry argued that any Licensing Bill would be imperfect which did nob deal with the question of licenses in the King Country. Mr T. MACKENZIE hoped that perJ mitting hotels to, be opened on Sunday would not be embodied in tbe New Zealand law. * He had seen nothing more disgraceful in connection with the licensing question than the drinking which went on on Sundays. I Tho PREMIER, in replying, said it was obvious that there must be_ a compromise by members if any Licensing Act Amendment Bill was to be carried tbiw-session. He hoped, members would not lead tbe outside world to believe that. they were ingincere on this question. I There were defects in the present law which must ha removed. It was ahsoJ lately necessary in the interests of both parties that these defects_ should bo! remedied. Tho larger questions involved in the licensing law could be left for future consideration. The Bill was read a first time on the voices. Th® Library. There was a discussion regarding the following resolution of tbe Joint Liorary Committee s "That all tho accommodation within the outside library doors be devoted to library business.” The PREMIER said that to take away the staff room of the library would cause a conflict with tho Library Committee; but nevertheless it was a very suitable room for the use of members, and he thought that aa there was really no other decent room in the building for members, this room, the best in tho library, and the most convenient to the lobbies, ought not to bo used simply for purposes of lumber. However, aa conflict might bo caused with the committee at present, he would see what arrangements could be made during the recess. He moved that the following words should be added to the motion: —“But not to ' the exclusion ’cf the p re s ent postal an. 1 rangementg, and that the room now used: . as a : staff-room he used as si writing and reading room for members." After some disctlsgion, this addition to' ' the motion was carried, and the motion in its amended form was agreed to. j Questions were answered till the hour , of adjournment, 5.30 p.m. J

BVBNINO SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Charitable Gift* Bill. ■_ The amendments made in committee in the Charitable Gifts Bill were agreed to, and the Bill was put through its final stages. The Midland Railway. Mr SEDDON gave notice to move that the rUblio Accounts Committee should be asked to report on the petition of the Midland Railway deben-ture-holders and the. shareholders, and that the report of the Royal Commission on. the Midland Railway be re-: ferred to that committee for Jkhe purl pose of enabling it to decide in respect to these petitions. Money.Und«Pt Bill. / Tho Money-lenders Bill, which is under the charge of Mr Hall-Jones, wa a considered in. committee. At clause 2, which defines the term “money-lender," Mr Massey urged that the Bill did not apply to lawyers, who lent a great deal of money. Mr HALL-JONES said he proposed to amend the clause go as to provide that the Act should not apply to “any person bona fide carrying on the business of banking or insurance, or any business in the course of which and for purposes whereof he lends money at a rate of interest not exceeding 10 per cent." He explained-that the Act was intended to apply to money-lenders pure and simple. Mr MILLAR moved to strike out subclause 4, which proposed to exempt any body corporate, or incorporated, or'empowered (before the passing of this Aot) by special Act. of Parliament to lend money in accordance with such special Act.

Mr Hall Jones agreed with this motion, and it was carried.

In regard to the amendment to subclause 5 of clause 2 proposed by the Minister, Mr Atkinson pointed out that a person who did not make a business of money-lending could occasionally lend money at an exorbitant rate of interest, and the Court had no power to review such a transaction on its merits.

Mr NAPIER urged that definition of money-lender should be - “every person who lends money for interest.” As tho clause is drafted, he said, it would not reach many people who lent money at exorbitant rates of interest. ■ ■ ■ ; Mr HALL-JONES said the Bill, would have to bo made-clear to meet objections raised by Messrs Atkinson and Napier, and ho promised that If the necessary amendment could not bo made in subsequent clauses- of the Bill he would agree to its recommittal for the_ purpose of making the amendment in its proper place—viz., in tho interpretation of “money lender” . . in clause 2. He added that it must bo made clear that tho individual money-lender camo within the provisions of the Bill. Mr MILLAR contended that thp proper place for tho definition was in the interpretation clause. . If tho hon_ Minister would take steps to re commit the Bill tho defect might bo remedied. The Hon - W. li.-i.IiL JONES said his idea was to provide by putting in action 8 “Money-lenders or any other person.” : - Mr G. W. RUSSELL supported tho Bill. It was a wery urgent reform, and it seemed to him that members 'forgot it had been drafted not to touch all people lending money fiut more particu-

larly one class. It touched thoge who openly advertised themselves as moneylenders. He thought there was an ulterior motive in blocking the. Sill* as some were doing, and the reason was that a certain other Bill wag on the order paper. Mr FISHER said the very worst class of money-lender was the one who was allowed to escape by the Bill. Ho urged that the Bill should bo amended in tho direction suggested by Mr -Napier, by defining a money-lender as • any person who lends money for interest.” There were persons in public and private offices lending money who were exempted from the Bill. Mr HUTCHESON moved that progress should be reported in order that tho Bill might go to the Statutes Revision Committee, but he afterwards withdrew his motion. Mr COLLINS pointed out that “ an£ person lending monay. for interest ’ would include depositors in banks. Tho Hon W. HALLJONES proposed an amendment to subsection 5 (which includes in the exemptions any person carrying on the business of banking, insurance, or any business not having for its primary object the lending of money in the course of which and for the purpose whereof he lends money) in the uireotion of striking out the definition of a business not having for its primary object the lending of money and adding “ at a rate of interest not exceeding 10 per cent.,” to the section. After seme discussion this amendment was carried.

A division took place on the question as to whether the whole amended clause should stand part of the Bill. The clause was carried by 44 votes to 9. 1 On clause 3, dealing with the “ reopening of transactions of moneylenders,” Mr G. J. Smith raised a point in regard to what had been described I to him as one of the worst evils of the money-lending business- Ho referred to the practice of endorsing bills for commission, and asked whether _ the Minister did not think some provision should bo inserted in this Bill to restrict the charges in oases of this kind. ■ Mr HALL-JONES said he was doubt'ful of the advisability of making provision in the present Bill for the cases mentioned by Mr Smith. Ho admitted that it was an important point, and said ho would make inquiries and see what could be done. i On tho motion of Mr Atkinson, an amendment was made to tho clause to . provide that the Court should have ' power to review a transaction before the time for repayment of the loan has I arrived, and that the section shall apply to any transaction which, whatever its form, is substantially one of moneylending by a money-lender. Mr Hall-Jones then moved ' a new sub clause to provide that “moneylender ” shall include, “ any person whp lends money for interest.” After a long debate this was carried by 23 votes to 14. An amendment proposed by Mr Hutcheson to add to this tho words “except on real estate,” was lost by 24 votes to 11, and clause 3 was added to the Bill. The remainder of the Bill was passed through committee without amendment. Trustee Amendment Bill. This Bill was committed. Mr MILLAR moved a new clause allowing the trustees under a will to sell the business of a deceased person lea joint stock company. The PREMIER declined to aoceptthis clause, which was lost on the voices. Mr BUDDO proposed a new. clause enabling trustees to invest trust funds in Harbour Board', securities. This amendment was also opposed ly the Premier, and was lost by 21 votes to 13. . Young Persons' Protection Bill The short title of this Bill was passed in committee, and’ progress was then reported. Bill Passed. The Trustee Act Amendment Bill, having been reported from committee, was read a third time, and passed. The House adjourned at 1.10 a.m.