FEDERATION COMMISSION.

New Zealand Times, Volume LXXI, Issue 4293, 28 February 1901, Page 3

FEDERATION COMMISSION.

EX AMI NATION’ 01-’ WITNESSES Tin* Eedciation Commissioa resume ;ii sittings at Parliament House ye iii'.biy morning. A LABOUR VIEW. Thomas Lynch, wharf labourer, a r< prescutativo of the Trades and Laboi Council, said tho Councils at a nicel iug, was almost unanimous in the opii ion that it would he vmwiso for Ac /.c a land to federate. They looked a tho 4 uostion jl'rorn this standpoint T\ ouid federation raise tho wages o lower the cost of living to workinj men? llo_ thought that fedoratioi ■would do neither. Then, by fodcracio! they would lose control of their re presoiUatm'a, which would fjfcj a bin lliuig. _{f wo couhi make better good and poll them, cheaper, tho outsail v, orb! would buy from us—there v. a ,: no .sentiment in business. It was quite ■ ■ v'ble I'm- men to turn out mo;-' ' "i eight hours than in ten, amen were in the shorter t-imo ahk n-I more energy to their work .S ho white rnau had no reason to fiai Iho competition of China and Japan, unless tho latter were furnished with proper tooiu. 11 considered that trade combinations were good lor (lie manufacturers, hut had for the woiknon. ft would, ho considered, bo • i,,r s colony to remain as it m • t his colony ■ had nothing to gain ronl everything to lose- by federation. ,- v r Beauchamp; Wages were lo'.v-

ir . ‘ i '* u tti'idni, than, in Now Zealand. J cii|)j.v,yi„p„ c | n Australia, was scarce, and people flocked to the largo cities obviate that, facilities should ho Vf'ou lor pi,-icing people on the land. JJ-- considered that no Conciliation and i hitraUon Act would raise wages if there were two men looking for one 1 man’s billet. As compared with New' Zealand, wages in America, wore not so i high; m the latter country wages had been reduced greatly during late years. 1 By Mr Luke : Witness objected to In.sis and combinations, as they were' monopolies. In his opinion, if a white mail wore given proper conditions he ccuid .vfi!.; whore a black man could. • s . afc * s ® that it would he, against the interests of Now Zealand to i Jcdcrate. By Mr Leys; In this country we could guard, against the formation of trusts. We had a bettrv grip of our ,1 arinuneiitm-y representatives in New Zi-aiand, and could jump on them, lie v, as on advocate of freetrado, and was not :>Jr-.t: 1 1 of Chinamen coining to the i colony. , A MILITARY WITNESS. '< .'.lajor William Madocks, staff-olficcr 1 to tho Commandant of tho Now Zen- 1

laud Forces, said lio did net think Nev Zealand would ciorivo any benefit defence by joining the federation iV:'li the assistance of the Navy, la ii.’.tight New Zealand could protect it aelf. The Navy was the first line o ■ a'loncc, and whothor Now Zealant joined the federation or not, it wouh Mill have the protection of tho Navyin tho event of tho colony’s federating its lorccs would bo under Australia) command, and would bo administercr from there, and our system would have to be assimilated to that of the Commonwealth, whether the conditionsuited us or not. In ease of emerge.i e.y, Australia would bo engaged lookjug alter itself, so that this colony would not receive any assistance from I mops. On tho other hand, it might b.> that fifty years honeo Austro., ha would have a navy of its own, the benefit of which wo would nob participate in unless wo federated. By the Chairman : Ho did not thin!: tho cost to New Zealand of defence would he greater under tho Commonwealth than it was at present. Assiiming that we had the protection of (he Imperial fleet, ho thought our land lorccs could be made effective for defence cf tho colony. By .Major Steward : In the event of Britain's being at war with another Cower, Australia and New ‘Zealand would, ho thought, be alike objects of attack. Ho was of opinion that New Zealand had nothing to gain in the way of defence by federating. By" Mr Leys: Ho could not see that the Australian transcontinental railway would bo any benefit to New Zealand in the event of an attack being made npen Now Zealand. As to a standing army, lie saw no reason to suppose that such an army would be necessary. Australia would need its troops for its own defence, bub he thought that New Zealand would got some assistance from Australia, whether we were federated or not. By Mr Bowen : What New Zealand had to fear was a sudden raid by an enemy. Bv Captain Bussell: So long as England was tho chief naval Power, he would not expect that a larger force than 10,000 men could attack the colony, but so long as New Zealand remained part of tiro Empire if; would be quite as safe as if we federated . THE ENGINEERING TRADE. William Cable, engineer, Wellington, president .of the Engineers’ Association, said tho association as a body had not considered the question of federation. From a trade point of view federation, he thought, was not desirable. Wager, iu New South Wales v.cro ton per cent. lower than in New Zealand. The result of federation would, in his opinion, be that wages would be lowered in Now Zealand. Coal was much cheaper in Australia, aud raw material could bo obtained at a cheaper rate than in New Zealand. Ho did not soo that New Zealand would gain any advantage by federating.

[>y Captain Russell: Now Zealand was a progressive country, and capable oi maintaining a largo population. 1 1 0 Jiatl not considered what effect federation would have on the colony twenty years hence.

By Mr Roberts: He did not think a Aew /jpaJaud workman could do ns much woik in eight hours as a work man in Australia, with Idss wages, rm;!d do m ten hours. s , r' If New Zealand delated, there would oc greater competition with Australian manufacturers. I.y Mr Luke : Witness t hought a man could do more work in -ten hours than in eight with niiichinory. d. P. Luke, engineer, said he was strongly against federation, but not from a trade point of victw. The condition of (ho workers in Now South Wales was much better than in Victoria, which ho attributed to the protective tariff of the latter State. It was the free, strong character of a pcoplw that made a nation successful, and he believed that the population of the colony had that character. Ho_ was opposed to coddling industries. New Zealand could not compote with Australia in iron-working. If an industry could not be carried on without protection he thought it wotdd ue better that it should go to the wall.

By Captain Russell: He believed that it was only a bogey to say that our manufacturers would bo shut out of the island trade if wc did not federate. Ho had nothing to fear from keeping out of the federationBy Mr Roberts: Wo don’t fear the competition of Australia. By Mr Beauchamp: Witness was a. freetrader. Tho iron manufacturers of the colony were not a wealthy people, and had enough to do to got along with tnodaraSs sumeH: Lf tho tsamifaetura

joi iron was to bo undertaken, it she I ho done by tho State. One of his stre cst objections lo federation was tin great deal of monev would bo sene of tho colony, for wfiich we would get 1 equi valent. V/e had a superior youll . <ho colony, and when a young man turnod out. of a. New Zealand engineer .'hop In- leuid get a billet r.nywlicro. By .Vi r keys: In witness’s opinion fc. ration would reduce wages ill this cole William Crab tree, engineer, Weill ton, said he believed lederatiou wo bo a good tiling for the colony, as would give us a larger market. For the outlying part-, of Australia N Zealand could compete against Aust Ha. Ho attached no importance to I sentimental a peel, of the question. '1 population of this colony was too sm to enable large industries to he devcf ed, lu tho course of a few years tin would he a. large population in Austral which, Under federation, would prove market for the colony. By Hr Leys: Victoria, was no be! - off in man u factories than Now Z(. land. He did not see how Austral! manufactures could .swamp lids eoku. If we were not federated, he tlioiig the tendency would ho for cur pope, linn to go to the larger held in Vi India. By Hr Beauchamp : lie did not thi; the' tendency would he, in event federation, for hoot and clothing man faclurcrs to swamp the Now Zcaie.i market with these articles. G.-nerai speaking, our industries would not n fer by federation, and the colony won reap advantages which it would m otherwise gain.

j By Hr Millar; He was certain t': New Zealand couhi compote •.vi'.'i An I tralia in engineerin'' work -. Fe.h-r, | lion with a large State- we- advantag 'oils to a smaller one. hut be would favour federation unless we wore to I ; put on an equal footing with otbv States. . > j David .Robertson., engineer, said i , thought we had everything to lose ar ; nothing to gain by federation. The i < , suit would be to Injure all the iiidu tries of the colony. He was of opinio that there would he a difficulty in rai ing the wages in Australia to the- sun: level as those in New Zealand. j A MINISTER’S VIEWS. William ,-Ml.iert Evens, Congre.r. (ioual mini-ter, said lie had eonsidcre the question of federation, and thong!.it would not bo ’.vise for New Zealai; to federate, as New Zealand was sen: rated by sea from Australia, and he a geographical character of its ow. ’!!ie insularity of tho colony tended uevolop a different intellectual and se cial character. Not being a contiguoi-; part of Australia it hud not fTio sarin inducements to federate.

By Mr Luke; He could not see hoc mr federation with Australia would r.i. feet too question of bringing about , Imperial federation. By Mr Beauchamp ; Ho did not thin 1 - that we would have such progress!vi legislation in this colony if tho colon;, joined tho Commonwealth. Ho did nof think the time was opportune for federation. By Hr Millar: He did not sec how some parts of Australia, could get alou without coloured labour. j A TIMBER, MERCHANT'S TESj TIMONY. I William Boolh, timber morohani. Carterton, and a director of flic Wellington Meat Export Company, said Jehad given some consideration to fedora, lion, lie thought New Zealand shonM not federate except for defence purposes. New Zealand was too far 'from Australia to make federation a success. New Zealand was a. country that could stand , alone. If wc federated the restrictions to the development -of New Zealand character would b-- more harmful than tho injury n> trade. The eftVc 1 of federation would he to make the fed ing unfriendly between the Commonwealth and New Zealand. Federation would bo m favour of tho trade of tin colony, but not Jo such an extent as t--warrant federation. Tho effect c ? federation upon the agricultural industry he had not considered. If the loan - of this colony were nob raised upon a-; advantageous terms as the Commonwealth's loans, that would be the fa-nib of those in charge of its affaire. H--cud not think the timber trade would be affected, as it was principally white pine that was exported. His impression was .that federation would not bo advantageous to New Zealand. He did nob mean that there would he any intentional unfriendliness to New Zeal - lana, but that would he the result. Tim advantage in matters of defenoo won; 1 .-’, he in the combination which the Commonwealth would be able to effect. .T-T-> was not an expert on defence, lin'd thought that with the navy as a firrtj line ot defence we would be able to do-,j fend the land.

"By Captinn.Rnssell: He did not thin!: that federation would assist ns in ovr land defence. He thought that' Inirl- - federation would be tho best fer New Zealand, but lie did not think fiwise to precipitate that; it would be. better to let the sentiment grow. Th :• fact that Australia was continental an 1 Now Zealand insular would, ho thought, tend to develop a, better type of character iu New Zealand. The development of a race depended largely upt- 1 the environment. He Imped that Australia would draw a line of country whom coloured labour should be located. Bcforo tho coloured race question was decided by either Providence or destiny, tho question would become a burning one witli white settlors.. He believe ! that if tho white man determined tht‘ Northern Australia should remain unproductive rather than that it should bo occupied by coloured people, the law of man, not that of nature, would prevail.

By Mr Beauchamp: Did not think that England would ignore our defence in the event of our being threatened. The question, of intercolonial freef-rod” was one that he did not think would detrimentally affect, this colony. By Mr Luke: He did not think that, standing alone. New Zealand would, bv its insularity, develop a contracted vie v of -affairs and lose tbo advantages tin *- the wider hold of tbo Commonweal) h would offer, New Zealand could evolve Pown destiny by standing alone.

THE AGRICULTURAL INTEREST. Robert Kilpatrick Simpson, a farmer, residing in tho Rangitikei, said he had leanings in favour of fedeiration, bu i he preferred waiting until ho saw how ;t worked out on. the other side. If tiro Commonwealth imposed a protective tariff, it would injure the agriculture,! interests of this colony. Arthur Edward Russell, farmer, residing at Palmerston North, said he hr.d not given the subject of federation much consideration. He was opposed to federation. It might beneficially affect the, colony’s agricultural interest during some seasons, but whnther we federate.' or not Australia would take our produce in times of drought. He was afraid that if wo federated’ this colony would bo the “back block’’ of the Commonwealt: . Ho was also opposed to federation for racial reasons. Myer CascHberg, manager of tho \Va:rarapa Farmers’ Association, said f hai. from Ills knowledge of the Australian market, New Zealand’s agricultural industry would not tauefitou by fiJara**

id i tion. Wo could only export a few oats. j As to timber, it was only white pine that . a; was exported, and he doubted if that .-.it -’was an advantage, as we would require no all that timber for our own use. Therein j was no advantage to be gained to our •- j trade—on tho contrary, everything to ' | lose—by federation. As to defence, in • any ease we would have to protect nur- --- solves. As far as he knew, tho farmers - . looked at the question from a practical point of view, as to whether or not they d would benefit by federation, u By Air Beauchamp ; His opinion was ;ji that oven if it cost the colony more to join the Commonwealth later on, after having seen how it worked, it would be ,e better. Tho colony was, he thought, .i- sufficiently .self-contained to work out its ■i: own destiny. Bv the Chairman: Federation would, e ho believed, have a prejudicial effect on ~.{ the administratioh of the colony. ANOTHER LABOUR VIEW.

Andrew Collins, baker, one of tho Trades Council’s representatives, said that from a labour point of view wo had nothing to gain and everything to Jose by federation. We hud better pay and shorter hours of labour, and had solved tho boy-labour question, ile objected to federate with any continent that employed black labour. If the sugar industry could not be carried on without coloured labour, tho industry should be wiped out, but he believed that the industry could bo carried on by white labour. 'The cheap labour in Australia would cause unfair competition in this coUinv. Wo did not want to compete' with Chinese labour. The labour party was not in favour of tho Commonwealth Bill. There was also a tendency to form trusts ants combinations in Australia, and wherever thoy existed they were I inimical to tho workers. The Union Company had net done muck for theworkers," but in keeping up the fares it had prevented this colony from being swamped by Sydney unemployed. Bv Mr Ley 3 - He did. not think that the "fact of New Zealand's federating would tend to raise the wages of workers in Australia, as Now Zealand s influence would be too small to effect xeJBy Mr Beauchamp: We fear the cheap boy labour and sweating competition of Australia and Chinese. A POLITICIAN’S OPINION.

Patrick Joseph O’Regan, journalist, and late member for Inangahua, said he had given, the subject of federation consideration. Ho thought the arguments against federation were based on imperfect information. He did not think this colony would lose its identity it it federated. Ho quoted from returns which he had compiled, showing that during the past four sessions of Parliament, out of 2SB Bills passed, only fifteen would have had to come under llix review of tho Federal Parliament. Somei measures passed by the

Parliament of New Zealand it would have been better to have referred to the Federal Parliament. For instance, our expenditure on defence would ha'-e boon kept within judicious bounds. In his opinion the number of troops we bad sent to South Africa had. been over large, as -ho did not believe in depleting the colony of its young men. Criticising tho Federal Bill, while ho was iu favour of federation, it was upon tho assumption that in some respects tho constitution would bo amended. He did nob think the question of dis. fence was of any importance. As to tho racial question, ho quoted Canada as

a, case where two distinct races combined. As to tho trade view of the subject, he quite admitted that New Zealand could live without Australia.

No doubt wo would have to give up

.•something. The question of freetrade versus protection would have to be fought out, and uutil that question was settled wo- could not come to a conclusion on the financial aspect of tho case. As to the better position of the workers in this colony, ho said the reason why labour was in a worse position in Australia was because of tho aggregation of population in the large cities He believed ,-that had New Zealand been represented at the Federal Con-

vention the' exclusion of Maoiis from I voting would not have taken place. | By the Chairman: He thought that the Federal Parliament would alter the constitution to meet the circumstances (of New Zealand. Until the federal tariff had been fixed, we could not tell how, far New Zealand finances would be affected. Assuming that federation would cost the colony half a million per annum, the money would have to be made up by direct taxation, which, he thought, would be a good thing, _asi it would lead to more economical administration. He admitted that the tendency of centralised governments wajs to increase, their powers. By Captain Russell: He did not think that our State rights would be overridden. • He could not accept the present constitution of the Commonwealth, but lie thought it would be altered to meet tho necessities of this colony. He did not think that- climatic conditions would pwoventl jtfhite people from working in Northern Australia. He would sooner see Northern Australia. _ occupied by coloured people than that it should become a desert. The distance of Now Zealand from Australia would not prevent that fusion and intercourse of the people that was desirable in a federation. By Mr Bowen: He believed that the danger from coloured labour was magnified. By Mr Millar: If there was no practical advantage to the workers by federation, there would be no use in joinmg the federation. By Mr Luke: He had no faith in reciprocity, end did not think that the colony would suffer 'from- centralisation in Australian States. Regarding protection, ho expressed the opinion that if _ industries could not stand competition in the open market, they should go elsewhere. By Mr Reid: He thought the Federal High Court would be a better Court of Appeal than the Privy Council, as it would be cheaper By Mr Leya: He believed that the collection of the Customs would he done more economically by tho Federal Government than at present. If the effect of federation was to restrict borrowing it would be a good thing for tho colony. The Commission adjourned .at 5.50 till ten o’clock this morning.