THE DRAINAGE QUESTION.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIV, Issue 5555, 17 January 1879, Page 2

THE DRAINAGE QUESTION.

A special meeting of the City Council was held last evening at 8 o’clock, to further consider Councillor Fisher’s motion for the apppinlment of Mr. D. Cliinie as Drainage Engineer. There wore present—His A'or.-liip the Mayor, Councillors Allan, Diver, Dixon, Fisher, Greenfield, Hunter, Logan, Thompson, Young, Moss, Maginnity. The Mayor said it might beas weilif hestated how far matters had got. The mover Councillor Fisher, and the seconder, Councillor Maginnity, had had their say, and the debate was then adjourned. He hid then stated there might be some difficulty in the matter in consequence of a resolution passed as a result of a report brought up by the reorganization committee. It appeared to him, therefore, that before anything could be done the resolution referred to must be rescinded, and he scarcely thought ho had power to do anything else but require that the motion for the recission must ci.:n ■ on before they went further, because his duty was clearly laid d wn in the Act, Clause SO of the Municipal Corporations Act was as follows ; 11 Any resolution of a meeting of Council may be revoked or altered at a subsequent meeting, either by a unanimous vote of all the councillors, or subject to the condition that seven days’ notice thereof, and of the proposal to revoke or alter such resolution shall bo given to each councillor.” Of course he would be glad to hear the opinion of councillors. Perhaps tho mover would like to say something.

Councillor Fisher : No, the responsibility of your decision shall rest with you. At the request of the Mayor, the Town Clerk read the report of the reorganisation committee, and the minutes of the meeting of Council of 29th November, 1577. Tho Mayor said he observed there were several marginal additions to the report, which did not seem to be a very regular document. He thought therefore that ho should hold that the Council might go on with the motion. Councillor Young : What about tho clause you have read 1 You cannot go behind it. The Mayor ; The document is irregular. Councillor Diver : What about the appointments of these gentlemen who were appointed under it. Are they all illegal ? Councillor Fisher : They throw up tho position at 0-.ee. The Mayor : Gentlemen, you have left the matter in my hands. Councillor Young : No, we have not. The Mayor : Well, I must take the matter into my hands. I hold tho document to bo irregular, and that we can go on. Councillor Young : What about the clause! The Mayor : I have decided. Councillor Young ; I suppose you would have decided in another way if we had another man here. The Mayor : I can have no reflections cast upon me. Councillor Fibher then moved that the resolution of the Council in regard to the reorganisation committee be rescinded. Councillor Maginnity seconded. Councillor Hunter inquired what was tho use of rescinding a motion which tho Mayor held to be of no value? The Mayor did not think that had anything to do with the matter. The motion was not carried unanimously, as provided for by tho Act. Several councilors objected to proceeding with Councillor Fisher’s resolution, because whatever might bo done would probably’ be found to be irregular, in the face of another contrary resolution previously oh the minute book. The Mayor, however, insisted on tho Council going on. After some discussion as to whether Councillor Diver would lose his right of reply, and a ruling by the Mayor in the negative. Councillor Logan rose to support tho motion. He pointed out that ho it was who proposed that Mr. Clark shouldjbe called in to decide between Messrs Climie and Bell on account of the difference and as to the mods in which tho sewage of tho town should be disposed of. The question now was whether the Council was not indebted to Mr. Climie in many things which gave him a claim on their consideration in the appointment of a drainage engineer, and whether he had not given them a good scheme. He quoted extracts from papers which stated’ that Mr. Clark was a well known and celebrated engineer, and combatted them by asking who had heard of Mr. Clark before he was asked to come to Wellington ; and then went on to point out that when Mr. Climie was appointed he was hampered by harassing conditions ; one was that the cost of his scheme mustnotexceed £BO,OOO, another that his pumping station must be on the other side of Mount Victoria, both of which he fulfilled, but at the same time stated that were the pumping station at the west end of Pirie-street gravitation would do all that was necessary, and that the scheme would be cheaper both iu regard to first cost and in regard to working expenses. The strong point against Mr. Climie was that he had always proposed to pnmp everything. Clearly that was untrue, and was indisputably proved to be so by the criticisms of Messrs. Clark and Baird, unfair as they were. He then went into a mass of technical details to prove that Mr. Olimie’s levels, estimates, and plans in regard to velocity, gradients, size of drains, pumping, rising main, the tunnel, and ventilators, were sounder than those of any other engineer who had yet written anything on the subject of Woffington’ drainage. Ha condemned Mr. CHrk’s scheme as containing a false principle of drainage, and could not understand how any man of repute could have brought forward such a scheme. Answering an interruption by Councillor Thompson, ho said Councillor Thompson should read up drainage matters. Councillor Thompson : Or get Mr. Climie to coach me. Councillor Lo«an was not indebted to Mr. Climie for any one fact he had stated that evening. (A laugh, and Hear, hear,) Ho thought the facts he had brought forward had shown that it would have been little short of madness to have carried out Mr. Clarke’ scheme as originally sent in and adopted by the Council. If they adopted the scheme of the engineer, Mr. Baird, bis gradients must be turned upside down. Therefore he thought there was sufficient to warrant them in employing Mr. Climie, seeing how greatly he had assisted them iu discovering the defects of Clarke’s scheme. He did not propose to hand over the drainage of the ciQ to Mr. Climie alone. His proposition would be that a drainage committee should - be appointed, consisting of certain members of the Council with Mr. Baird as their adviser, and that Mr. Clark’s scheme be carried out with such alterations as such committee might decide upon. He made that proposition with theviewof meeting those members of the Council who appeared to have Clarke on the brain, and he hoped that in this way the difficulty would be got over. He was aware that probably the motion before the Council would be lost that evening, although they might |bring it forward again subsequently. However, he hoped that that course would be taken ; therefore he would move as an amendment, —That the following words be added to the motion: “That the Mayor and Councillors Hunter, Allen, Fisher, Greenfield, and the mover, with Mr. Baird as advising engineer, be appointed a committee, with power to assent to any alterations they think necessary iu Mr. Clarke’s proposed drainage scheme.” Councillor Greenfield seconded. He thought this would meet the whole difficulty, and would place the drainage works under the control of the Council. He hoped the motion would be carried, and that something practical should be done, so that they should get rid of the present doubt and uncertainty. He confessed he did not know how matters stood, and was sick of the drainage question. It was time they got to work, and he hoped that the amendment would meet the views of the dissentient councillors. Councillor Hunter thought the motion and the amendment inconsistent. Councillor Moss wanted to know which scheme was referred to. "Was it Climie’s, Clark’s, or Baird’s? Councillor Logan said Mr. Clark’s scheme After some discussion on the point of order, Councillor Diver objected to the addition, because on so important a question the committee should embrace the whole Council and not a select few whose views were altogether one-sided. At present the drainage committee comprised the whole Council, and it should continue to do so. Councillor Maginnity supported the amendment. The addition ought te satisfy everyone, because it showed that those who supported Mr. Climie’s claim were not prepared to hand the city entirely over to him. He thought Mr. Climie was being treated with contempt, notwithstanding his services to the Council. At the request of the Council he had prepared a scheme, and the ratepayers had accepted it, but now they wanted to throw him over after it had been shown that the services of Mr. Bell were unwarranted, in favor of a scheme by Mr. Clark, which had been shown to be very defective, except where it agreed with Mr, Olimio’s scheme. He highly commended

Councillor Logan’s speech as the result of careful reading and study, and hoped that the amendment would be carried. In justice to Mr. Climie his services must be considered. The motion for the amendment was then put, with the following result Ayes, 5: Councillors Greenfie’d, Young, Fisher, Maginnity, and Logan. Noes, 7: Councillors Hunter, Thompson, Allan, Dixon, Moss, Diver, and the Mayor. The amendment was therefore negatived. Councillor Moss was quite willing to recognise the services of Mr. Climie, though ho could not forget that whatever Mr. Climie had douo had been well remunerated. In six months he had received £IOOO. However, let that pass. He would move that a drainage engineer be appointed under the City Engineer, and that Mr. D. Climie be offered tho appointment at a salary of £ per annum. He left the amount vacant so that tho Council could fill it in. ,

Councillor Dixon seconded. They had paid for and received a great deal of engineering Information, and ought to make use of it. The City Engineer was quite competent to direct what alterations should jbe made in Clark s scheme, and Mr. Climie had the confidence of a great many ratepayers, and no doubt would carry out the altered scheme with great satisfaction.

Councillor Hunter said ho had not been present at previous discussions. He should wish to say a few words with regard to Mr. Clark. There seemed to be a disposition to cast a slur upon the professional standing of Mr. Clark. He could say this, that after the Corporation of Sydney had been in a difficulty for years in connection with their drainage, they sent Home to certain persons and authorised them to select the best drainage emgineer they could get. Mr. Clark was selected, and paid a fee of five thousand guineas and travelling expenses, it being understood that he would not be absent for more than six months. He seemed to have given satisfaction in Sydney, and was therefore engaged in Christchurch and other planes, and therefore had been brought here. It was not right therefore to say that Mr. Clark was an unknown man. [Councillor Logan ; I said to this Council.] Well, they had seen and heard Mr. Clark when here, and most of them felt that he was a man of great ability, otherwise they would not have taken the steps upon his recommendation that they had taken. He thought it was a pity there had been mixed up with the question another matter, that was the way in which Mr. Climie had been treated, and the services ho had rendered. Well, if Mr. Climie had done anything: for which he had not been paid properly, let him receive what was rightfully due, but do not mix up that question with the other. He hoped that the drainage of the city would be left to the City Engineer. Whatever was done should be under the direction of Mr. Baird. Let Mr. Baird be given whatever assistance he required, but do not force a man upon him. It would only lead to confusion, and evil must result to the city. At any rate he hoped something would be done, and the work of drainage got on with, because they now had plenty of information.

Councillor Diver thought as the Institute of Civil Engineers had chosen Mr. Clark for {he Sydney people that should be sufficient proof of his eminence, therefore while he commended Councillor Logan’s painstaking efforts he could not approve the conclusions he had come to. As to the amendment, he thought it could not pass. As Mr. Climie had held such strong opinions against Mr. Clark’s scheme, it would be almost an insult to offer him the post of engineer in charge of Mr. Clark’s scheme. Therefore he could not vote for it. He agreed with Councillor Hunter that if anything was due to Mr. Climie it should at once be paid. He proceeded to show that Mr. Clark himself said his scheme differed entirely from that of Mr. Climie, and said if Mr. Clark or Mr. Baird could take part in the discussion they could prove that nearly all Councillor Logan’s statements were untenable. Councillor Logan himself in June last supported the adoption of Mr. Clark’s report, saying that it was an improvement on anything yet brought before the. Council. [Councillor Logan : Yes, in principle, but not in detail.] At any rate gentlemen with so little experience as Councillor Logan should not have attempted to criticise a scheme of a gentleman who (Mr. Hunter informed him) the late Minister of Public Works had stated was a roan celebrated all over the world. It was stated that Mr. Clark’s scheme had been changed by Mr. Baird, but Mr. Baird authorised him to say that he had done nothing but what Mr. Clark would have done had he been allowed to take the outfall Mr. Baird now proposed. He felt that the City Engineer was the proper person to take charge of the scheme, and he was especially capable of doing so, seeing that he had been with Mr. Clark during the whole of his stay, and had been in receipt of a good deal of information from him.

Councillor Allen related the steps he had taken in regard to Climie’s scheme, having always opposed leaving the city in the hands of Mr. Climie entirely. He had always fought for a consulting engineer. Ha was not yet decided how he would vote, but generally he agreed with what had fallen from Councillors Hunter and Diver regarding Mr. Clark. Councillor Greenfield pointed out that' when Mr. Climie first came here he was requested to prepare a scheme, but he declined, saying he was quite willing to enter into competition with other engineers. The Council said “No, we have sufficient confidence in you. We want you to give us a scheme.” Mr. Climie agreed, but took the precaution of obtaining a promise that if the scheme was not approved it should be returned to him and not be made public. The [Council agreed to that. "Virtually they accepted the scheme, but afterwards they had thrown their engagements to the winds. This was why he thought Mr. Climie was entitled to consideration. They must give Mr. Climie credit for having brought forward a scheme which in the opinion of the Council and the people met the wants of the city. It was very well for men to talk of Mr. Clark’s scheme, but it must be remembered that Mr. Clark had come here merely to decide between Mr. Climie and Mr. Bell, and had all possible information before him. He was not limited to any particular expense, nor yet to any particular level, as Mr. Climie was. No restrictions were placed upon him. What wonder, then, if he had produced a good scheme. But the Council was informed that there had been great alterations made in the scheme by Mr. Baird. He felt that Mr. Climie had been badly treated, and therefore could not support the amendment. Councillor Young had come to the Council prepared to support the motion, and he had heard nothing to induce him to depart from that opinion, but had arrived at it for a different reason than that which actuated some councillors. He cared little for Mr. Climie’s scheme, but he had an idea of what was fair play, and considered that Mr. Climie had not had fair play. [Councillor Moss ; Compensate him.] When he heard Councillor Greenfield, a very old councillor, describe how Mr. Climie had been broken faith with he could not help feeling great regret. He believed Mr. Climie would have legal claim for per cent, on the whole cost of the scheme. (No, no, and hear, hear.) He thought so, and though he was not particularly enamored of Mr.’ Olimie’s scheme he would like to see him have fair play. Councillor Mac. innit t thought it the amendment were carried it would place Mr. Climie in a false position, and should vote against it. Councillor Logan also opposed the amendment.

Councillor Thompson could not support the amendment on any grounds whatever. He thought they should have nothing more to do with Mr. Climie, but pay him all the compensation be fairly deserved, and leave the drainage to Mr. Baird, because he was possessed of all possible information, and had plenty of ability. The two men certainly could not work together, and it was useless to have two engineers. The Mayor said it was unfortunate that the qualifications of various engineers had been criticised, because it did not properly come within the question. As chairman of the committee which first considered the scheme he could endorse what Mr. Greenfield had said. Mr. Climie deserved great consideration, but that would not operate in his (the Mayor’s) mind in coming to a conclusion on this subject. It was very evident that two engineers holding totally opposite opinions could not be employed by the Council. All sorts of complications would arise, and the result would be injurious to the city. It was only fair to say that Mr. Clark had said that had it not been for Mr, • Climie preparing the way, his (Mr. Clark’s) scheme would net; have been so well received by the people. Mr. Clark had always spoken in respectful terms of Mr. Climie, but that did not affect the question, and he could not vote for the motion, while quite willing to see Mr. Climie compensated.

Councillor FxSHEE then replied. What the Mayor and other Councillors had said of Mr. Clique’s action it seemed to him inscrutable that Councillors should have endeavored to deprive Mr. Climiel of the credit of carry, ing out the scheme he had initiated and worked np.lt was very unfair to Mr. Climie.... It one . man robbed another’s pocket he could pot be reached by a [process known to the

law; but if an engineer stole the brains of another he could not be reached, but the offence was none the less heinous. Mr. Climie could not be expected to work under Mr. Baird. After having been led on step by step he was now to be thrown over, and why ? He had offended no one ; he had not disgraced himself in any way ; he had not declined in professional ability ; then why should he be robbed of his just reward ? It was also incomprehensible that while members privately stated Mr. Climie had been shamefully treated they should publicly vote against his employment. Some members thought he ought not _to be employed, because ho might alter Mr. Clark’s scheme; but Mr. Baird was to be allowed to cut it about as he pleased. That was very inconsistent. There must, as Mr. Greenfield had said, bo a consulting engineer. Mr. Baird at present scarcely knew how to get enough hours in the day, and it was unfair to cast more work upon it. Ho was constantly complaining that he could not get through the ordinary work, yet Councillors wanted to cast upon him more duties of a very exhausting character. He said there was a strong conviction among the people of the town that Mr. Climie was very badly treated, and if any member doubted it he (Councillor Fisher) challenged that gentleman to' resign, and said he would accompany him to the hustings. Let the Council reject the motion, and it would be tested in another way. The amendment was negatived by 8 to 4. Councillor Thompson then moved as an amendment that the City Surveyor be directed to take steps at once for carrying out Mr. Clark’s drainage scheme, and that Mr. Climie’i claims, if any, bo referred to a committee of the whole Council for consideration. He expressed every desire to see Mr, Climie compensated for any loss, and hoped the motion would be carried and would lead to something practical. Councillor Maginnity moved, and Councillor Greenfield seconded, the adjournment of the debate. Motion for adjournment put and negatived. Councillor Logan seconded Councillor Thompson’s amendment, intending to do so pro forma, but did not use the words. .Subsequently he asked the Council not to insist on his vote following his voice.

This was agreed to. Councillor Logan then went on to talk against time because the majority would not consent to an adjournment.