PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5423, 14 August 1878, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 13. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. PAPERS, ETC. Several papers were laid on the table, and notices given. STANDING ORDERS. A report from the Standing Orders Committee was brought up. It recommended the adoption of an alteration in rale 230, to admit of nine instead of seven members on select committees ; that the Local Bills Committee should consist of five members ; and that a new clause, 240 a, should be introduced—that when committees were chosen by ballot a similar plan should be adopted in all vacancies on such committees. privilege. The Hon. Colonel BRETT called the attention of the Council to what he considered a breach of privilege. A fierce attack had beeu made on the character of a member of the Council, and it was the duty of the Council to vindicate its members. Colonel Brett concluded by moving,—That it was desirable that the Oouucil should be informed what action was intended to be taken with reference to a certain article recently published in the Timaru Herald. Considerable discussion ensued, and on the question that the article should be read, the Speaker advised against its being read. Ultimately, the feeling of the majority of hon. members being in that direction. Colonel Brett withdrew his motion. GENERAL BUSINESS. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE introduced the Public Reserves Act 1877. —1 t was agreed that the number of members of the Standing Orders Committee should be increased to ten, and Messrs. Hall, Menzies, and Waterhouse were added to it,—The Library Committee was also increased to ten, and the same hon. gentlemen added. The class of works introduced of late elicited some caustic remarks from Captain Fraser, who deprecated the introduction of trashy novels. The Council then proceeded to the orders of the day. LITERARY INSTITUTIONS AND PUBLIC LIBRARIES BILL. The second reading of this Bill was moved by the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, who explained the measure, and in the course of his speech mentioned that there was no really first-class public library in the colony. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed next day. REPRINT OF STATUTES BILL. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE moved the second reading. The matter would be conducted under the presidency of a Judge of the Supreme Court, with two practising barristers to assist him. The Hon. Sir D. F. BELL thought the Government should not be confined to a Judge of the Supreme Court’ for the action indicated. He also called attention to the desirability of having, as the English law adopted in New Zealand, the revised Statute-book. Further, he gave a list of English Acts which were entirely inapplicable here. He thought the Government should not only make a readable statute law, but also define what portion of the statute law of England should be in force in New Zealand. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE expressed great satisfaction at seeing such a measure brought forward, though he did not consider it all that could be desired. He regretted the Bill was nob also a consolidating one, instancing Canada and some of the States of America, where such had been done. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE, in reply, said the Government did not intend to go any farther. They would not at present proceed with the consolidation of the law. Bill read a second time ; to be committed next day. The Council adjourned at a quarter to 5 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 13. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PETITIONS. Petitions were presented by Messrs. Dignan, Hamlin, Fisher, Swanson, Tole, Sutton, McMinn, and Tawiti. NOTICES DP MOTION. Notices of motion were given by Messrs, Seaton, Stevens, Olliver, Rolleston, Georg© McLean, Richardson, Hodgkinson, Rowe, Sharp, Thomson, Stout, Murray, Hursthouse, Manders, Sutton, Ormond, and Saunders. PAPERS. Several papers and returns were laid on the table by the Hons. Messrs. Ballauce, Macaudrew, and Stout. REPORTS. Mr. BRYCE, as chairman, brought up a report from the Native Affairs Committee, which was referred to the Government. Mr. MURRAY brought up the report of the Joshua Goodfellow Committee. PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT. Mr. ROLLESTON, without notice, asked when the House might expect the Public Works Statement ? The Hon. Mr. MAGANDREW: Some time next week. HOSPITALS AND CHARITABLE AID. Hr. STEVENS, without notice, asked what the intentions of the Government were in this matter ? In reply to a previous question, the Government stated that their intentions would be made known after the delivery of the Financial Statement, H© would now like to know what were the intentions of the Government ? Sir GEORGE GREY: Perhaps the hon. gentleman will give notice of his question. THE JAPANESE COMMISSIONERS. The Hon. Mr. FOX said he wished to ask, without notice, whether the Government had taken any action with regard to the Japanese Commissioners. In reply to a former question, the Government stated that they would make enquiries and take action, and he wished to know if this had been done ? Sir GEORGE GREY : No information has been received by the Government. The Hon. Mr, FOX : Has the Government sought for information ? Sir GEORGE GREY : The Government has taken action in the matter. SELECT COMMITTEES. Mr. CURTIS drew attention to the want of sufficient accommodation for select committees to hold their meetings. The SPEAKER made some remarks on the subject which were perfectly inaudible in the reporters’ gallery. MANGAHOE INLET. Mr. TAIAROA obtained leave to postpone till next day asking the Native Minister, — If the Government intend to introduce a Bill to enable the title to the Mangaboe Inlet to be determined ? RAILWAY FROM CHRISTCHURCH TO OTAGO. Mr. WILLIAMS asked the Premier, —If it is the intention of the Government to give the members of Parliament an opportunity of visiting the South on the great occasion of opening the railway line from Christchurch to Otago ? Sir GEORGE GREY replied that the Government would have no objection, if the state of the public business would allow it. He might say that hon. members leaving Wellington on Thursday afternoon would be able to go to Dunedin, see all that was to be seen, and return in time to be iu their places on Tuesday following, at all events in the evening. RECLAIMED LAND. Sir. MANDERS asked the Colonial Treasurer, —Whetherhe hasanyobjectionto lay before this House a return showing, (1) How the cost of the reclaimed land, proposed to be handed over to the Wellington Corporation, ia made up ; (2) whether the sum of £89,000, the alleged cost of said land, contains anyitem for interest upon current expenditure incurred during reclamation of said laud, and for repairs to rolling-stock, plant, cost of tools, &c.; (3) whether the land has been valued so as to arrive at its real worth; (4) also, whether there is any objection to lay before this House an abstract of the documents upon which the proposed handing over of this reclaimed land to the Wellington Corporation is based ? . The Hon. Mr, BALLANCE replied that the information asked for in questions 1,2, and 4 would be laid on the table. As to question 3, the land had not been valued., REMUERA ROAD. Mr. TOLE asked the Minister for Public Works, —If the Government will take steps to erect a bridge over the present railway levelcrossing on the Remuera road, near Newmarket, for the purpose of guarding against serious accidents ? The Hou. Mr. MAGANDREW said inquiriea were being made in the matter, and the result of the inquiries would be communicated ia due course. SCHOOL LIBRARIES. Mx*. O’RORKE asked the Colonial Treasurer, —Whether it is the intention of the Government to invite the House to make provision for the establishment of school libraries, in pursuance of section 57 of the Education Act. The Hou. Mr. BALLANCE replied that the Government recognised the importance of school libraries, and they would consider the subject of placing an amount on the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose.

DISTRICT RAILWAYS ACT. Mr, MURRAY asked the Government, — If they will amend the District Railways Act so as to give greater facilities and encouragement to local enterprise, by guaranteeing, say, 2 per cent, upon the cost of railways approved by the Legislature, leaving the deficiency between such 2 per cent, and the amount guaranteed by the local government bodies to be made up by profits, and by such bodies, from rates or otherwise ? Also, if they will amend the Rating Act so that Crown and native lauds may be rated for such purposes ? The Hon. . Mr. MACANDREW replied that the proposals of the Government would be embodied in the Public Work's Statement. MALVERN COAL. Mr. WASON asked the Government, —if they will lay before this House the report of the Resident Engineer in Christchurch tipon the use of the Malvern coal on the Canterbury railways ? The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW replied that the return would be appended to the Public Works Statement. MINING OPERATIONS. Mr. WASON asked the Government, —If they will lay before this House a return showing the number of accidents, involving injury, fatal or otherwise, which have occurred during the past three years to those engaged in mining operations throughout the colony ? The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW replied that the Government had no objection to lay the return on the table. BILLS. In committee, Mr. O'Rorke introduced a BUI for the founding and endowment of a grammar school in the town of Onehunga. The BUI was read a first time on the House resuming, and the second reading fixed for to-morrow week. Mr. SEATON obtained leave to introduce a BUI to vest a certain reserve in the borough of South Dunedin, which was road a first time, and the second reading fixed for Wednesday fortnight. Mr. SUTTON obtained leave to introduce a BiU to amend the Napier Swamp Nuisance Act, 1877, which was read a first time, and the second reading fixed for Wednesday week. FRUDOLENT DEBTORS BILL. This BiU was ordered to be recommitted, a new clause inserted, and the BUI reported to the House, with amendments. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. The Hon. Mr. BALLANOE moved the House into Committee of Supply. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said he had no objection to the consideration of the ordinary estimates being proceeded with ; but before hon. members could proceed to discuss the financial policy of the Government, it was necessary that the Bills foreshadowed in the Financial Statement, and the Public Works Statement, were before the House. He would therefore like to know when these Bills and the Public Works Statement would be placed be fore the House ? The Hon. Mr. BALLANCE replied that the Bills were in course of preparation, and would be before the House at an early date. The Public Works Statement, he was informed by his hou. colleague, would be made towards the end of next week. The motion for going into Committee of Supply was then agreed to. In Committee of Supply the item £115,410 was voted under the head “ LiabiUtiea of 187778.—The Hon. Major Atkinson requested that the committee should be supplied with information on various items included io the lump sum. The Attorney-General said that the information sought for could not be given in the absence of his hon. colleague the Native Minister.—Mr. Bowen suggested the propriety of postponing the item until the hou. the Native Minister was present to afford information, but it was pointed out that the coarse proposed could not be followed, and the total item was passed as printed. Legislative Departments, £39,597 17s. 6d. Mr. REES moved that the item “ Usher Legislative Council, £250,” be struck out. After discussion, the committee divided — Ayes, 40 ; noes, 23. The item was therefore struck out. The Hon. Mr. STOUT moved, after considerable discussion, that the item “ Clerk of Writs, £100,” be omitted. At 7.30 progress was reported. ELECTORAL BILL.

The debate on the second reading of this Bill was resumed. Sir GEORGE GREY said he wished he had health and strength to speak as he could desire, but failing in these respects he would still do his best to indicate the plans of the Government and the motives which induced them. He was not going to answer the arguments made, but should endeavor to give the views of the Government. The one exception was that he desired to contradict the assertion of the hon. member for Geraldine, that he had solmenly pledged himself to abolish plurality of voting. He had never given any such promise, nor intended to introduce such a principle, except in reference to municipal and county elections, though that might be necessary as a further reform directly. The hon. gentleman had made a mistake therefore in supposing the remarks had reference to elections for the House. One feeling which actuated his mind was this—“ Where am I V* Honorable gentlemen would remember the late Government bad said nothing but political rest was wanted. Even taxation was not to bo touched. This calm was to prevail generally, and the new institutions were to be allowed to develops themselves. Therefore he never expected to be taunted with having not gone far enough,— especially when his proposals had been accepted by the country. Referring to the measure itself, he declared the residential qualification to be the great point of the Bill, and justified the principle. In England and the United States it might be proper not to insist upon residence before a vote was given ; but in the one place, the new comers would not arrive in such numbers as to affect prejudicially their political system ; and in the other, they, wishing to establish a home of liberty, had not hesitated to enfranchise all new comers at once. However the Chinese question in the latter place had shown the necessity for a modification, although it must be rememberedtherewere checks—such as the requirement of 15 years’ residence on thepart of a man before he could become a senator. In New Zealand, close to the Australian colonies, and even to China, a check was certainly needed, and the one proposed was not too severe. The Bill he regarded as one of a series of progressive legislation. It was a BUI of a class. A similar measure was that declaring that all men had an equal right to the land fund. That was a great measure, which the people would always endorse. Then they had declared that every child should have free education, and a system had been introduced which was more free and would inevitably lead to befctfr results than that of any other country. These were two important items in New Zealand’s charter of Überty. Another point to be added was that, unlike older countries, there should be no enriching of one class at the expense of the other. The rich might grow richer, but they would have to pay their share of the expenses of the country, and the poor should not be ground down to the dust. Such being the advantages of New Zealand, it was not unfair to ask new comers to show their bonctjidcs before endowing them with a voice in the councils of the colony. The Bill would give every person reaching 21 years of age the right of voting for members of the House, nay to take his seat in that House, \7hat did that mean? At the present time, he believed, there were not more than 40,000 electors, and there were above 70,000 males, forming the pith and marrow of the country, at the present time, who had no electoral rights, although they formed the classes most capable of exercising their votes, and even of sitting in the House, This Bill, then, proposed to enfranchise these 70,000 persons. Was it not a valuable privilege to add to the charter of rights of New Zealand ? The Government thought, with the exception of two or three points, the Bill would meet the views of the country, and were quite willing to allow reasonable amendments. In proposing the alteration in the suffrage he had done that which was just, and ho would point out that it was in accordance with the most advanced thoughts of statesmen in Europe. Any other measure which might be brought forward would be ill-advised. They had framed a measure which they could hope to carry through the House ; besides that he did not wish to go too far, or to see a House, returned by a small body of electors, legislating for all time, as had been done in the case of abolition of the provinces. He was anxious to secure a full representation of the whole people, and then they could settle various matters, such as payof members and other questions. He was in favor of payment of members, but he did not wish to force something on the people to which they might be averse. A few months, or eighteen months, or two years delay, would not prejudice these questions, and they might be satisfactorily dealt with v/hen the whole people returned a now Assembly. He concluded by an appeal to his party to cling together to carry cut the great measures which they had inaugurated. Ur.WALLIS, as a supporter of the Ministry, was sorry the Bill did not go the whole length

of manhood suffrage, and confessed he was in a disagreeable dilemma as to how he should vote. He liked the Bill of the Government because it extended the suffrage, but his affections were drawn to the Bill of the hon. member for Waikato, which contained Hare’s system of proportional representation. There was very little difference between the two Bills, but that difference was in favor of the latter. The onward and upward movement of society must result in universal suffrage, and the sooner it was introduced into New Zealand, and Democracy instituted in all its power, the better. Ho had hoped the Premier would have gone the whole length, and if he would but throw over the Conservative members of his Cabinet the country could still get what it wanted. He (Dr. Wallis) advocated manhood suffrage, because every man had a right to a voice in the making of the law, because every man was taxed, and therefore should be represented ; because of its educative influence ; because in this way only could the forces of society be enlisted in the good government of the colony ; and finally, because there should not be created in New Zealand an outcast class. Otherwise the Bill was exceedingly liberal. It was as close to manhood suffrage as£99l9s. to £IOO, and it seemed ns if the Conservative members of the Cabinet had had their prejudices soothed by the present of one farthing. This was a blemish of the Bill. Another was the bestowal of double representation of the Maoris. Let either special representation be done away with altogether, or else let the Maoris be prevented from interfering with European elections. He complained also of the absence of a clause redistributing the seats. He combatted the opposition of the Attorney-General and Mr. De Lautour to Hare’s system, contending it would infuse new political life into the people, and denying it would keep out of Parliament young men, or in any way tend to promote bribery and corruption. If the Bill was good, as one gentleman said, for small corporations, it would also be good for Parliamentary elections ; but the gentleman who talked of applying it to the elections of local bodies evidently had not studied the question, for the system to a great extent was inapplicable to local elections. Mr. GISBORNE approved the principle of extending the suffrage and at the same time preserving the rights of property in giving it a share in the representation by means of plurality of voting. He was sorry to hear the Premier call the latter a defect in the Bill, and when the hon. gentleman called on his followers not to bo divided he thought the Premier should have shown a better example than exhibiting his disagreement with his colleagues. (Hear, hear.) He disagreed with the residential clause altogether, especially the two years’ residence condition. He referred to the fact that for 18 years the miners of the colony had been entrusted with a vote without such a condition, and asked why the rest of the people should not be equally trusted. The miners had always exercised their votes carefully, and it was a remarkable fact that a late Premier and the present Premier, both men who had done great service to the colony, had been elected by miners. He thought the residential term should be six months, but approved generally of manhood suffrage. This Bill gave nothing of the sort; there was a property qualification in it. But in compensation for the want of manhood suffrage they were to have women suffrage. He disapproved altogether of women bring rendered capable of sitting in the House. She would be the wrong person in the wrong place—(hear, hear, and no, no) —just as much out of place as hon. gentlemen would be if they took charge of a nursery, (Laughter.) It would be a calamity if women were allowed te sit in the House. He opposed Hare’s system, although be sympathised with John Stuart Mill’s views as to the necessity of giving minorities representation. He expressed regret that no new Representation BiU had been brought down. The Attorney-General would recognise the present inequality of the representation. (Hon. Mr. Stout : Hear, hear,) Then why continue the present injustice. Referring to some remarks of hon. members as to conservatism, be said he thought the talk unreasonable as applied in the House. People seemed to forget that the last great extension of the suffrage in England was the work of the Conservatives. (Oh, oh.) It was Mr. Disraeli who brought the Bill in, and hon. gentlemen would not deny that he was the leader of the Conservative party. However, it: was absurd to talk of Conservatism and Liberalism in this House. The hon. member for Waikato, a leading member of the so-styled Conservative Government, brimming over with the rights of man, was bringing forward a measure to sweep away all the rights of property ; while the Premier was with halting steps advancing in an opposite direction. The two hon. gentlemen seemed to have exchanged policies. He could only hope that out of this confusion would be evolved order, and a consolidation of the electoral law. His course was clear—he should support the Bill because it extended the franchise.

Mr. SAUNDERS wasnot altogether pleased with the Bill, especially that clause doing away with public nominations, as detracting from the educative influence of the elective system. It was said this plan of secret nomination was a necessary consequence of the ballot. He approved of the ballot because of its results, but condemned its spirit. He preferred to see openness and boldness in all public pro* ceedings. Another argument was that the plan was adopted in England, but it must be remembered we had not that incorruptible insuppressible institution in this colony which existed at Home—the Press. He did not wish to decry the colonial Press—some papers were creditable to the colony j but as commercial speculations they were susceptible to influences which could not have an effect upon such a journal as The Times and other leading papers. With such an institution as that open nominations might not be necessary, but they were necessary in this colony as an educative influence. He did not agree with the Premier that the 70,000 persons to be enfranchised were the pith and marrow of the colony. He did not believe they would exercise any influence for good, that the House would be improved, or that its legislation would be improved by them. He was in favor of manhood suffrage, because he had never hee& able to find any reason for refusing a fellow settler the same voice in public affairs as him* self *, but at the same time he regarded manhood suffrage as a necessary evil. The men to be enfranchised would not have a beneficial effect upon legislation, and the higher classes could only endeavor to educate the lower classes so as to negative as much as possible their evil influence. Ho criticised the action of the Premier as being of a backward character in respect to the suffrage, in consequence of his giving plurality of votes. As a property holder, he recognised it was for the true interests of property that plurality of votes should bo abolished. It would do away with the ill-feeling that had been generated against property, and prevent the lower classes taking more extreme measures of opposition to the higher classes than 'they had exercised during the past. He felt bound to say he had understood the Premier as had the hon, member for Geraldine, and must add that he disagreed with the Premier’s proposal to reduce the power of property holders in local government. The introduction of women to that House would bo a great mistake ; but he agreed with the residential clause. There was one inequality in the Bill. A man without property who could not stand the educational teat would have no vote, but an illiterate man of property could vote by virtue of his property. If a poor man was to be punished for his want of education, how much more deserving of punishment was the wealthy man in a similar position. Ho objected to several minor provisions, but strongly approved of the closing of public-houses during polling hours, quoting the case of America as an instance of the success of the experiment. In conclusion, he expressed regret at tho want of a Bill redistributing the seats, and providing for a general election, because without it tho time of the House was wasted in passing measures which would probably bo swept away by the next Parliament, representing more fully the wishes of tho people. Mr. HODGKINSON said the BUI, as a consolidating and simplifying Bill, had his entire approval, though he was sorry there was not with it a Bill redistributing tho seats. That might bo regarded as a necessary complement of the present BUI, especially in view of tho attitude of tho Premier during the two past sessions. It was a wise and conservative provision that two years’ residence should bo insisted upon, indeed, ho considered tho term was scarcely long enough, and would have preferred to see the six months local residence increased to twelve months. The remarks of the hon. member for Totara on tho woman suffrage question, and those of the AttorneyGeneral on Haro's system of representation, quite mot with his approval. Mr, BOWEN commended tho speech of the hon. member for Cheviot as a fair practical criticism of the Bill, and was glad it was not being discussed from a party point of view. Ho hoped tho Registration BUI would bo brought down and dealt with in a similar manner. Tho Attorney-General had made a

great mistake in attempting to fasten the terms Liberal and Conservative on the various sides of the House, because any attempt to introduce English party names to this colony must be thoroughly illogical. There could be nothing but Democracy in this colony, and the only thing to be dreaded here was that a temporary majority would utterly swamp a minority. Any attempt to give equal representation should be regarded with favor; and systems like that of Mr. Hare, which had met with approval from many philosophic minds in England, could not in that House be disposed of with a sneer. He did not admit the principle that manhoodl suffrage would give all that was needed in the colony ; and he instanced the case of America, where the tyranny of a majority had often buried out of sight some of the best and wisest minds in the country. The Government proposals in the main were fair and reasonable. He admired the residential clause and the plurality of votes. The mere fact of giving people the franchise, it must be admitted, would not necessarily ensure a correspondingly large number of registered electors. At the present time not more than two-thirds of the electors were on the roll, and so it would be in the future. He did not see how the rolls were to be purged of names placed on the roll in respect of residence when the persons left the district, and it struck him that the lowering of the property qualification and enacting plurality of votes would result iu giving more property votes, and thus act in a manner contrary to what the Government expected. As to woman suffrage, he had too great a respect for women to talk about them in a compassionate way. He contended that under the present system woman was fully represented, and by family ties exercised a great deal of political influence, and that the class of women who would come into the House would not be those who would be accepted by the women of the country as their representatives. The question of Maori representation was rather important. There were gentlemen who represented 9000 persons, the Middle Island Maoris numbered 3000, and they had a representative, and also had the power of interfering with three or four other elections. That was utterly unreasonable, and was a fair sample of what would occur all over the colony under this Bill. He regretted the absence of a proposition to redistribute the seats. He hoped a proposition would yet be brought down, and in such a shape that it should be considered without reference to party, and settled on some well defined principle. (Hear, hear.) Mr. SUTTON thought the BiU dealt with a question which was not of burning importance, and predicted that were the franchise lowered as proposed, it would be productive of the evil results which had followed a similar condition of things in Victoria, and would not in any way tend to the good government of the people, Instead of polit’eal power being thrown ‘into the hands of the bulk of the people it would be placed in the hands of large employers of labor. He denied that the lower classes were the most liberal. The truest liberals were to bo found in the middle classes. Registration and exercise of votes should be insisted upon, and votes should nob be allowed to persons who were rate defaulters. Mr. WOODCOCK thought the BiU would improve the present electoral law, but complained of disappointment with it as nob being an emanation worthy of patriots and political philosophers like the Ministry. The Bill, with aU its liberality, only made provision for the representation of a bare majority of the electors. He had anticipated they would have introduced a BiU which would have given to the voice of every man in the country an echo in that House. Bat nothing of the kind had been done. The BiU was not sufficiently in unison with the democratic tendencies of thought in New Zealand. _ The present Government could not claim originality in reference to electoral reform. The hon. member for Waikato had two or three times introduced the subject to the notice of the House. In 1876 Sir Julius Vogel brought down a Bill, but it was withdrawn on the representation of the gentlemen who now occupied the Government benches. The next session the hon. member for Waikato prepared a Bill, and would have brought it down had fair play been allowed the late Government last year. So the Government policy was scarcely original. He condemned the action of the Government in attempting to create class prejudices during the recess, and quoted a writer on American politics, and Lord Gifford, to show that extreme partyism was opposed to - the best interest of the people. The debate was then adjourned on the motion of Mr, Reeves.

At 11.45 the House adjourned till 2.30 next day.