General Assembly.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume XVII, Issue 1788, 20 September 1862, Page 3

General Assembly.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1862. The Speaker took (he Chair at 2 o’clock. Present—Hon.Mr. Tancred, Ool.Rustiell, 01. Kenny, Major Richmond, M^Ssrs.Cjtfield, Menzies, Sewell, H. Russell, Sukes, Hall, Johnston, and Crawford. DELEGATION OF POWERS BILL. The Attorney-General obtained leave to bring in a Bill to continue delegation of Powers from the Governor, notwithstanding b change of Governor, which was read a first time, and subsequently passed through its several stages, and Was transmitted to the Houseof Representatives, Commencement of acts bill.The Attorney-General obtained leave to bring in a Bill to define the time when Acts of the General Assembly shall come into operation, which was read a first time and passed through its several stages,- and transmuted to the Ilonsd of Representatives. NATIIVE LANDS DILL. Mr.-Tancred, in moving the second raiding of this'bill, said he di .1 not intend to enter into its details, as many opportunities had occurred of ventilating this question/ but he would not disgOise from the Council that this measure was intended io bring about a radical change in dealing with the Native lands.- The experience of the last few years had shewn that this question ol the na’ive land lay «it the root ol the Native di fli cu I ties, and that unless il was settled ail cur efforts for civilizing the natives would be fruit!??*, and nil <>nr urtetnpts to introduce law among them would be of no efiect. The question was not new, and iu various acte- and dcspatchea it

had been brought under the cognizance of the Imperial Government. All were unanimous on this point that there was ti general teel'ng o f distrust and jealousy among (he natives with regard to their lauds. Referring to the former union of • he office of Native Secretary with that of Native Lind Purchaser and their present separation he said, what was wanted was not a mere change vl department but some guarantee to the natives on • he subject of their lands, and if they were suis(led on this point one great obstzcle in the way of settling their present difficulties would be removed. He did not any that (his m«*.»-.uie would remove all difficulties, but it would be niamles to them that if they were willing to euariu-ee those tights to the natives, it would great y conduce to this end. The very fact of this mefrsure having been brought forward had greatly altered our position as regards the Natives with this question, and the circumstances were so pressing us to demand immediate attention. The gold fields at Coromandel ahowad the necessity of providing for these questions as they arise, and and no doubt other auriferous lauds would be found in the Noitlnrn island. Although by ihi* Bill a great change would be made in dealing wi<h Nat : ve lands, they had sought to guard against the evils arising from direct sale to private individuals and from the indiscriminate alienation by the Natives of tbeir lands. In the first place the Gove«nor had the power of concurring or not in the sale, he had also the power oi making reserves lor the benefit of the Natives and it rested with him to bring the Act into operation in particular districts or not as he saw fit. With these safeguards he was tint afraid that any prejudicial consequences wnul I flow from the Bill. He did not regard this as a final measure lor settling the Native difficulties, hut he looked upon it as the first step towards removing a sore which had been .estering since the foundation of the Colony. The (fleet of the measure would be («• remove invidious objections, and t? introduce an European population in districts where nrije existed before. This introduction of an European population and mixture of the tacts must prove beneficial to tiie Natives, 3'hss would have the eilect ol doing away with the irritutatiuti and estrangement thai now existed, and insite.d of living sepdiate and looking wbh suspicion on each other • he two races would live loyet'.er, they would learn io appreciate each other, and become one people. This mixture of the population would be better than any artificial attempt lo Unite the race*. There was one aspect in which the question bad not been considered. The Natives had now nothing to make them careful or lo occupy tbeir minds; except when engaged in tbeir runangas they sst smoking theii pipes in a state of inaction ; formeily they were engaged in their feuds and wars, which need as a stimulus on • heir minds and employed all their energies. If ibis Bill were passed, it would give them an object t> employ their minds and a stimulus to impiovement, they would begin to think how to turn thei» lands to the best account, and it would do more lo improve them than any knowledge they obtained at the schools. In conclusion he would state that the Ministry had the Gov-rnor’s authority for ibis measuri. While his Excellency preferred his own plan yet, as he was convinced be bad no hope of carrying it out, he was willing to accept uf the present measure. With these remarks he would move the second reading of the Bill. Major Richmond second the motion. Mr. Crawfoud said, —Sir, if anything would reconcile me to vote for the second reading of ibis Bil‘, it would be the very temperate, and I mussay able arguments, which have been advanced in favor of the B-11, by the b---n. gentleman re-pre.-enduq the Government who has moved the second reading. And, if 1 though’ that the results predicted by that hon. gent J em;ri w..u!d follow the passing of this I'ill. 1 would ceitainly vote for the second reading But sir, I fear that the results woit'd be entire’y d flerent from the expectations of the hon. geii'leman and therefore I .-hail oppose it. Sir, I believe that in the incubati’ n of this egg the original M.»a that was expected degenerated into an Ostrich and it seems doubtful, supposing • he second reading to pass, whether we shall arrive at anything more important than a kiwi or an apterix. I am sure, sir, that every one will exonerate me from making this a party question. I would. willingly vote for this Bill if I thought that it would tend to the settlement of the Native question, to the profitable occupation of the country and to its r.dvancement in wealth and civilization. I believe, sir, that ilie proper mode of procedure would havebeen by a tentative measure, applied to certain districts, if successful in (hose distiicts it might have been gradually extended. But before proceeding with ihis argument perhaps the C••uncil will allow me io lelate an anecdote. Some years ago, I v sited t'le hnn member for the (,’onnry of Moray, tn Scotland —an old 'fury—what is now called a a Conservative. The period of my visit was at a • ime, not long after the disruption of the Peel Ministry, and »he Conservative party, by the changed poiicv of Sir R. Peel, upon the corn law question, and free tiade in general. One day, after dinner. I asked my L'-rd, bow it was '.hat he and the rest ut his party allowed themselves to commit poll i<-a’ suicide by retaining the advocacy of principles so illogical, and so absurd, as those of proteciion; and whit h had no necessary connection with the Conservative party. He replied by acknowledg ng that the results of the experiment, hi the increased wealth of the Country, and contentment of all classes had convinced him that he was wrong, but he said hnw could Sir Robert expect several hundred English gentlemen in a short week or month, to turn round and vote against all their firmer professions; professions which (he former arguments of Sir R. Peel had done his best to establish and sustain. 1 was silenced, and could make no reply. Well, sir, we have been taught that land-sharking is a very bad thing, that direct purchase, and indirect colonization are very dangerous ; and now, sir, w<» are asked nil of a sudden to “jump Jim Crnw,” turn round upon the principles which we have been taught and re inaugurate the old system. I think, sir, we ought to have had more time. It is really too much to expect us to come round so very suddenly. The question between free trade and protection, is one between sense and nonsense, between enlightenment and darkness—but here weare asked to change round on a question on which no great definite principle is involved and on which no two persons have the same idea as to the results which will be ariived at. Some say. the Bill will tend to settle the North Island rapidly, others that it will make confusion worse confounded. Some say, that the Bill will not be of much good—others that it will not be of much barm. Sir, with these differences of opinion, a tentative measure would have been much better. We have had a tentative measure already in New Zealand, in the shape of the Taranaki war. The result was not encouraging, and perhaps led us io avoid a general war. This should have been an example in preparing this Bill. This, sir, I look upon as a panic Bill. The ship is in a heavy sea, with the breakers, perhaps,-of Cape Egmont under the lee. All at once a strange sail is seen looming through the mist. It may be the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch. The officers of the ship are panic stricken. Cut away the masts, says the Captain. Throw the guns overboard, says the Ist Lieutenant. Pass this Bill and the ship is a helpless * wreck among the the breakers. Will she reach port under jurymasts? I doubt it. Sir, the North Island is in its natural state of very small value, but brought into cultivation, oy a due combination of labour and capital, it will become one of the richest countries of the world. All of its surface under, say 151'0 feet of elevation, will be brought into cultivation either for cereals or fdV artificial grasses, but it is essentially a country which requires regular and systematic colonization. Take the Manawatu Block for instance, it trqniies plansand omlay for drainage possibly fur irrigation which private individuals could not attempt. Take thi* forest zom* between the open couniry of the Rangitikei and Wanganui districts and >he open country of the interior. Here lie several iniliions of acrei», which arc u.-c-

pss to the speculator but which, although very broken, consist of fertile soil atni on which by svfltemalle eidutiisatimi a very la ge population might be s‘tiled. 'Hie principle of this bill sems t<» me t > be one plan having failed 'ry another. I here is a possibility < ( f success, but a great imprnbahiuty. If however, the Bill is carried, then carry ( ,ut the principle and d >iiot let the new race of landsharks laugh in their sleeves at the old ones. L* wo l ds of the Land Claims Commissioner:— Give a cha.ice to Mr. Weller, who surveyed G 3.0110 acres in Otago more than 20 years ago, Jet Mr. Green try for his exaot qmuiti’y of 1,623,00') acres of snowy imuintaihs on the West Coast, and Mr. Jones prove for his principality at Molvncux ; risx Akarna for Mr. Htinpelinan, and the Pelorus for Mr. Guard, the Aoreregdd-field for Mr. Crawford, and the \apier plains for Mr. Rhodes; and compensate Mr. Graham for not being able to give him his Waipa land, handed over t v King Matutauera. (hie point may be considered of consequence in connecfion with this Bill. We have heard of a proposed million loan. We also know that the Pr >vincial Governments are in debt and rnay require more money. I think it is likely that this Bill by entirely removing the securitv of the land revenue may hare a bad effect on the London market. Although I do not attach much imparlance to this, asl consider the general revenue derived from an industrious ami thriving community as far better security than a laud fund, whicn is perhaos in process of rap'd dissipation without any reference to renaymeni of the d<‘bt. I should be glad tu vote for this or any o<hrr measure which I was convinced would effect the desired ol)je< t of the Native question, and advancing the civilization of the country, but I cannot see that the Bill before us will have that effect, f consider that ministers have placed ti.is Council on the horns of a dilemma. There is danger in voting for the Bill, there is danger in voting against •t- You cannot pass it and then retreat, whaiever mischief may ensue. I, for one, will not be responsible f<»r the passing of thia Bill, and I theref'me now move that it be read a second time this day six months.

Mr. Stokes, in seconding the amendment, said his chief objection to the Bill was, that it was opposed to the principle laid down bv the Governor in his Minute containing his Excellency’s plan of Native government, as it was entirely at variance with his Excellency’s nude of dealing with the Native lands du.ing bis former administration of the government nf this Colony. Then one of the chief difficulties he had to contend with was (he mischief arising out of the pmchase of Native lands by pr va’e individual) under Cantahi Fitzroy s proclainations. The policy then pursued by his Excellency had always been warmly supported by the Home Governmeni. and he (Mr. S.) could not cite a s'ronuer proof of this tha.) ’he f.dlowing passage from Lord Carnarvon’s despatch in reference to the Teiritorial Rights Bill of 1853 : — J presume, however, that the prupi.sed scheme has a farther object, mid that it is intended to furnish a means of ultimately enabling individual colonists to purchase (he landed property granted in severalty to individual Natives. 'l’here can be no doubt that the passing of the present Act would be veiy speedily followed by a change or rather ievolution in the system of land purchase in the direction indicated by your advisers. But such a change, I conceive, to be in the highest degree unadvisable. The present system of land purchase appears, as far as I can judge, to be understood and acquiesced in by the Natives, and to be workiug well for the Colonv, while the pecuniary difficulties suggested by your advisers is one which it is in the power of the local legislature to provide against. On the other hand, the system of individual purchase is, to say the least, opposed to the spirit of the New Zealand Government Act (15 and 10 Vic. c. 72 s. 73), and it is open to important objections in point of policy; it offers no sufficient guarantee for the fairness of the negotiations which have preceded the transfer; it invests the Government with a discretion in respect of sanctioning purchases which can scarcely be exercised without incurring the suspicion of favouritism—it will encourage speculators to anticipate (and thus obstruct) the progress of settlement by appropriating choice and commanding spots of land within the Native territory, and induce an intennixliue of European with Native lands calculated to cause confusion and inconvenience. I hold it therefore far more advisable that Government should purchase territories, than that individuals should purchase properties, so that the line which separates the purchased lands on which European law is to prevail, from the unpurchased. on which the | Native usages will continue to subsist, though always i advancing, will be broad and unequivocal. i Now he (Mr. S.) should be quite prepared to ex- • pect. i*‘ this Bill should be submitted to the Home | Government for her Majesty’s approval, that the I same objections will he nn de to it with even | grea’ct f-rce than weie urged by Lord Carnarvon to the Bill of ISSB, as they certainly were , more applicable (hear). The circumstances of the Colony are more ethical now than at that time, and require a much greater degree of riintion in dealing with this question. In 1858 the Colony was in a state of peace, now we have hardly escaped from a state of hostilities which was brought on by an unadvised purchase of land (near). If the experiment of allowing direct purchase fiom the Natives by private individuals was to be made, it should have been done by degrees and with the greatest caution, and this seems to have been Sir G. Grey’s opinion as recorded in his Minute and in his note on the Memorandum bv the late Ministry. In his Minute Sir G. Grey' proposes that iu any sale of land, which shall not exceed one farm, and shall be approved of by the Governor and the Runanga, the purchaser shall enter into an engagement to extend over ten years, not to be absent more than six weeks in any one year under a penalty of .£1(10, and in his note he says—- “ All I desiie on the point of buying lands from the Natives, is—

Ist. That no one should be allowed to grasp more land than he can use. 2iiil. Occupancy’ for some years. 3rd. Concurrence of the Runanga in the sale. 1 should fear at present to go further. Now it is to be observed that no provision is made in this Bill to secure those three safeguards which his Excellency deems lo be so essential, and further than which h» declares he is afraid to go. No limit is fixed to the extent of land to be acquired by any individual, no provision is made for occupancy, or for the concurrence of the Runanga in the sale. And there was this remarkable feature connected with the Bill, that while it made the most important altera’i< ns in the Treaty of Waitangi and professed to be for the especial benefit of the Natives, no steps bad been taken to ascertain tbeir wishes on the subject (hear, hear). The advocates of this Bill professed to approve highly of the Territorial Rights Bill of 1858, and yet by that bill it was provided that a payment should be made to the Crown of 10s. an acre on all land purchased from the Natives, and that the amount to be sold annually should be restricted to 50,000 acres. 3he hon. member (Mr. Tancred) contrasted the present state of inaction of the Natives with the time when their energies were stimulated by feuds and fights, and says that this bill will give occupation to their minds. He (Mr. >.) was sorry to find such a stimulus applied, and when the Native was converted into a landjobber he had no doubt that feuds and fights ending in bloodshed would follow from his new pursuit, and bring back the old times to which the hon. member had referred. The bill .appeared to him to be one of those experiments which was likely to inflict greater evils than it was intended to cure, the remedy was worse than the disease, and he for one would Rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of. Perhaps it will be said that the former system of land purchasing from the Natives has failed and therefore we must try some other plan. The failure of the old plan was in his opinion to be attributed not so much to the system itself as to the vicious mode of administering it. If the Commissioners for purchasing Native Lands had been strictly confined to this duty instead of being also intrusted with political duties, if a better system had been followed in the negotiations for land than had latterly obtained it would have been attended with more beneficial results; the loan of Z 180,000 would not have been frittered away in salaries, and more land would have been obtained for the Colony, Above all he did not believe that the Waitara purchase and the hostilities which followed as a consequence of it could be justly considered as a fault of the former system, ami as an argument in favour of the changes proposed by the present bill, because that was an exceptional case without precedent or parallel in any former purchase He (Mr. S.) believed that the former system of maintaining the Crown’s preemptive right, if faithfully administered would be adequate to deal with the present difficulties and obtain sufficient, land for colonising purposes. 11c thought the present measure was open to grave objections and at best was one (if doubtful expediency ; he slu uld therefore feel it his duty tu vole against it md iu support of the ameudmeut.

Ihe A rroiiNEY-Gt.NetiAL (Mr Sew li.) Kam 1 , Sir;—l iu’eiid to give >ny vote for the seennd reading of th s Bil>; at d as 1 have taken a not inconsiderable pari in the question to which it refers, especially a 4 a tuoinber of the late Governmen*, which initiate 1 a measure on the same subject, 1 trust the Council will pardon me for detaining them bv a sta’crnent of my reasons for the vote I am about to give. Sir, exception has been taken by members «.f thi 3 Council,’ and by persons out of it, to ’h- fact (ha; the Bill I’ef .re us has not been sent down will. hj K Exeellencv’3 express recommendation. T’te Ministry, it isgajj professes to cast upon the Governor the sole respnnribdttv in the management of Native affairs, and therefore a measure of this nature so impo tent, involving consequences possibly affec - ing Imperial as well as colonial interests, ought to have been presented to uh with his Excellency’s d : - reel sanefon. In truth, so far as I undenstami the case, it has but a qualified from him. He takes it as the best thing he can get. not es what he desires. Il does not, in f aC ’, express his t.up mind I leave it to my hon friend opposite and •<» the Governmeni to reconcile their inconsistencies. I. *cr mv part, do nut trouble rnyself with x. (* 11.. t? w «

questions or this nature. Uelievin K , as [ ,| o ,| )at it is the duty and the interest of the colony frai.klv and fully to accept the lesponsihility C a<t upon it bv the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch, 1 think the Government has taken a light course’ in initiating the measure and proposing ii t„ us> „„ |ht , r rc _ spon-ibilny, Pl such a shape that it mav he presented IO the Imperial Government hearing on its face a clear indication of the mind of the colonial Legislature. Those who differ from me on the question of our acceptance of Ministerial Responsibility may do battle wi h the Government on this ground. I make no such complaint against them. And I think them right in proposing it to ns, (hough I at the some time admit many of the objections made against it. It cannot be denied that its object is to vary the terms of the Treaty of Waitangi. The preamble so statesit. It is intended t-> wiihdiaw from her Majesty the exclusive r'ght of pre-emption over Native lands. It is (at least, without her Majesty’s assent, it would be) an infringement of her sole preroga'ive in matters of treaty. _ Nor is ii less true that it exceeds tire proper limits of our legislative jurisdiction under the Cons ilution Act. It is ultra vires as being in conflict with tire 73rd section <>| that Act. The Imperial Parliament may remove that objection. Equally true it is that ,rs u measure of policy it is a perfectly novel experiment in the history of our dealings for land w,th barbarous or semi-batbarous races, and an abanrL nment of rules applicable to the disposal of wa-te lands hitherto recognized as fundamental principles of colonization. Sir, I admit the truth and the force of these objections, but they are not in my opinion sufficient io counteract the reasms which induce me io support the measure. And first, let me remark that this Bill is to be reserved for her Majesty’s assent. It will be brought under the consideration of the advisers of the Crown in England, and may be probably referred to the Imperial Legislature finally to give effect io it. Thar, in my opinion, is a suflicient answer to objections grounded cn its being in excess of our Constitutional powers. Besides, we have the assurance that its defects end omissions may, in ease of need, be supplemented or corrected by the Imperial authorities. And yet I venture to entreat my I.on. friend xvho represents <he Government in this Cuunc I, not on thia account—-because the measure may be revised by the Imperial authorin' sin England, therefore t.> allow it to pass carelessly from our hands. It is highly desirable, if it is to become law, that it should stand on our Siatute-bo »k in form as it comes fi<»m us, comp>e e and perfect, not requiring alteration or amendment at the Lands of the Crown, or ot i arliament. If we leave it to them to legislate for u?, or JegUlate so badly as to require their intervention, the chances are, that they will do so in igt.orance or disregard of our wants and circumstances, and Rend us back a measure wholly unsuited to us. Therefore, I earnestly trust that the Government will permit us so to shape this measure that it may meet acceptance from the Imperial authorities, simply leaving to the Crown or Parliament, as the case may’ require, the business of giving it legal and formal effect. And in order to tlrsend, Ido earnestly impress upon my bon. friend opposite, that on the nut of the Government he will allow us freely to consider the details of the Bill, with a view to amendments which may remove objections, which I foresee will otherwise be taken to it at home. I say this for the sake of the measure itself, in a spirit of sinceie desire, to give effect to it in th? best possible manner. Haring sard this, I at the same time state that even should the Government refuse my counsel, I cannot on that account icfu-e my assent to the Bill. \\ hatev< r may be its faults, and in whatever direction we may look to remedy them ; l am absolutely clear in my opinion that this Session ought not to pass without some Legislation on this subject. Sir, the general objects of this measure will be found to agree in the main with one prepared by the former Government of which I was a member—prepared I may say by myself—and initiated in the other House by the late Colonial Secretary, Mr. Fox. Both alike recog nize and give, effect to the Native ownership of land aud facilitate the disposal of it. The aim of both is to place the Natives as regards the disposal <>f their lands as nearly as may be on the same footing w th ourselves, having regard to difference of cii co instances. For this purpose Loth of them set aside or at least postpone as matter of secondary' consideration all principles and theories of systematic colonization. On these points the two measures run in parallel lines. But I confess, that upon a careful comparison of the two, perhaps from a natural parental bias, I greatly* prefer our own measure. It was mor? cautious; more tentative, reset ved larger poweis t i the Governor, was open I think to fewer objections of ditail, than the present one. I will n< te some of the special differences. The present Bill introduces a subject altogether omitted from ours. It establishes Courts of Judicature for the settlement of Native titles. I quite concur in the object of these provisions. I think some fixed method, in the nature of an appointed tribunal for settling questions of Native title, is an undispensable condition for quieting Native difficulties. And I desire emphatically to state that a plan of this kind was distinctly in contempla ion by the late Government, though not provided for by our Bill. We thought it best (I still am disposed to think so) to exclude that subject altogether from positive enactment by the General Assembly. In our opinion, the establishment of such Courts was matter exclusively proper for the exercise of Her Majesty’s prerogative. It belongs to Her Majesty and not to the Assembly. It belongs to her by virtue of that sovereignty which she assumed over the Native people by the treaty of Waitangi. The relations between the Crown and the Natives (at leas* as regards their lands and all.matters connected with them) are, I conceive governed by principles applicable to Crown Colonies acquired by cession ar treaty. The Constitution Act does not, and I think was not meant to confer upon us such a p >wer. Our power nf legislating in matters relating to the land of the colony begins I think from the point when they become Waste Lands of the Crown by cession from the Natives. All before belongs to Her Majesty and the Natives thrmse ves. The Bill nrepared bv us was carefully framed upon this principle ; but we intended to supplement it, by action of the Governor on bshatf of the Crown, by establishing seme fixed mode of ascertaining and determining questions of Native title. T do no , however, object to the introduction of this mat er into the Bill before us. I look to the fact that the Bill is intended to be reserved for Her Majesty’s assent, and I regard the introduction of this matter rather as a suggestion of the proper form of proceeding to which the Crown may in its pleasure give effect than as definitive legislation. I should otherwise have felt great difficulties on this point. On another point this Bill differs from ours.' Vt e thought it expedient, carefully, to guard by oar measure against all possibility of etitanging our Courts of law With the decision of questions of Maori title. The rights of the Natives to their land depend on usages and customs of which'it is impossible for our Courts to take cognizance. The interests which they have or claim are of so anomalous a kind that no one—noteven the most skilful in such mat ers, professes to understand them. I cannot conceive anything more mischievous than to carry such questions into our Courts, nor so likely to involve us in political difficulties il, as must needs be. we are called on to sustain the decisions of our Courts in cases of dispute arising out of thrm- So we framed our Bill with a view to giving legal effect to titles futmded. on Crotyii Gram—or iusti umebls proceeding horn theCiovvu, ■ind o such 0.-.ly. Every title to land created under o.ir Liu would have been strictly a Crown title—-

in the r it.t ug of which he Crown would have exerc,s,‘d ”8 dtscreti«»’>. I observe, however, in the measure now submi °d > •us a departure from that principle. I e .••nestlv l one ’h'* Gove nmeut will permit us «om<id f. it in ibis particilar. I’he Inlnerial Government w I’, I am confident, object to it unless this is done. We thought it wise also to avoid the enunciation of abstract principles. They are, in my opinion, eininen lv dangerous in a such a case. The principles on which property in land is ba<edj even amongst civilized communities, are of a subtle and difficult character. There are refinements and distinctions which only accomplished jurists can enter into or expound. 'l’here is the right of enjoyment and th’* right of disposition. And the conditions by which these rights are or ought to he governed and controlled are by no means of a settled or uniform character. The history cf our own law will supply ns with abundant illustrations oil this point. And there is, besid‘B. an inseparable rela-

tion between th** ri-i’us of prop rty and its dunes and liabilities vhi< h yon cannot refuse to acknowledge, but which you would find it extremely difficult to establish in reference to these Native lands' whilst held under Native title. The Bill of the present Government as first introduced appeared to me open to the gravest possible objections on these grounds. I am glad that it comes before us in a less objectionable shape. It contained at first a broad unqualified assertion of legal ownership in Native lands which would have given a legal status in out Courts to such ownership in all its original deformity, and entangled with all the complications and which we know to our cost are inherent in it. As it is, these objections are not removed from some of the clauses of the Bill before us. Again, whereas by our measure we reserved to the Governor full discretionary power as tu times and places for bringing it into operation, all proceedings moving from and returning to him for confirmation and final action ; in the Bill <if the present Government as originally framed, all such checks were omitted. It was there proposed to set u:> throughout the whale Native territory, a self acting independent machinery, by which the Natives of their own motion and by their own spontaneous action could every where,' without control, through certain forms, assume the legal ownership of their lauds, with an almost unlimited right of disposal of them. Whatever theoretical arguments may he urged in favor of such a scheme, I believe it would have been dangerous to the peace of the Colony, and the welfare of the Natives. I should have looked wi'h alarm a the sudden th,rowing open to them of the unqualified right of disposal of their lands, without regard to fitness of time, or political ci-cu instances affecting particular localities; opening in both races the floudga’es of cupidity and rapacity, by* conferring an absolute right of ownership over this large territoryupon a people imperfectlyconversaut with the nature of property in land or its uses,' and exposed to the artifice's of designing men. There would have been in my < pinion great danger in thus suddenly and without discrimination placing before both races a scheme which would have roused and might have brought into conflict the strongest and worst passions of our nature; stimula’ing on. the one side that eager pursuit in tlieacq itsi'ion of land to which we give the name of laud sharking; and rousing into unhealthy activity the natural love of money inherent in the Native character, waking up it may be innumerable latent feudi as’ to disputed land claims, about which the Natives' will become more jealous and tenacious in proportion as their land assumes a specific monetary value. In the Bill before us there is some protection against these risks. It is proposed to reserve a power to the Governor to bring the act into operation at such times and in such places only as he in his discretion may think fit. That is.in my 7 opinion a saving clause; at least if the power thus reserved, be wisely and honestly exercised. The safety of the measure will, uowever, thus mainly depend on the administrative working of it, and a grave responsibility is thrown upon the Government in bringing it into operation and watching its effects; Sir, I confess that for the reasons I have stated I find it impossible not to regard this measure with anxiety. But I am, nevertheless, sure that it is best to allow it to pass into law. It is indispensably necessary that we should legislate after seme fashion without further delay. We cannot afford to suffer another session to pass away without at least attempting some solution of the Native land question; It we deter it now, it will be sure to return upon us at a future day with aggravated risks and difficulties. Sir, tnere are two conditions in the present state of our affairs which make it impossible to postpone the settlement of this question. First, we have undertaken in good earnest to establish amongst the Natives civil institutions. We are pledged at least to attempt this work, —the work of educating, civilizing and governing them ; but it would be hopeless to make the attempt without at the same time definitively settling their land rights. Secondly, we have reached a point beyond which we cannot, in this island, carry on colonization with any chance of success upon the present system of acquiring land from the Natives. As to. the first point, the settlemen- of the land rights of the Natives, I say with confidence thactili we have done this, we have done nothing tuwatds effectually planting amongst them civil institutions,or reducing their social condition into order. No community,' civilized or barbarous, can settle down into a state of order and law without a settlement of their rights to land; Land is the foundation on which every organized political system is based. It is almost part of ourselves. Sir, I hear a frequent reference to the so called Native policy of ISSB, as if that contained in itself the panacea for all our evils if only it had been suffered to have free scope. I cannot share in thatopinion. I'be policy of IBSS was utterly defective, for want of this, essential condition. It contained no settlement of the Native land question. I know it will be said that there was the Territorial Rights Bill which was. disallowed : 1 have in time past spoken in terms of disparagement of that measure. The most mature reflection confirms my judgment upon it. It did not even profess to settle the question. It authorised the disposal of 5 ‘,OOO acres a year for 3 years, by way of grant to the Na’ive% and it set up a machinery something like that contained* in the present Bill for creating a sort of hybrid title by certificates to Native lands,'a title neither British nor Maun, but it did no more. It was in fact, avowedly a measure of delay—intended to’ put aside for three years the difficulty of dealing with the subjec.—a mere postponement of the evil day, the day which is now come when we must at all hazards establish some system for determining the rights of the Natives to their land, and how in future they shall be permitted to dispose of them; Sir, we have bound ourselves to this task by the’ obligation we have assumed to establish amongst them law and order and government. That obligation rests upon engagements which we have too’ long neglected to fulfil. We entered into them by the Treaty of Waitangi. By that Treaty the Crown* bound itself as regards the Natives to two conditions, —one to assume sovereignty over them, and with that assumption to discharge towards them the duties flowing from the relation between sovereign and people,—the other to respect their land rights; These obligations are in my opinion real and binding. I feel indignant and ashamed when I hear, or hear of, gentlemen of high honour denouncing this Treaty of Waitangi as a sham and a' delusion—a device to amuse savages—-to be set at naught by us at pleasure. In one sense, indeed, it may be trea’ed as a sham and a delusion, namely, so far us we are at liberty to hold the Natives bound by ii. They may not have understood; probably did not clearly understand, the nature of thalf engasremeri I —but the Treaty was of our making.: “ Verba joriius accipiuntur contra proferentem.'' We at least are estopped from repudiating its undertakings. I think we must, with shame, confess* that we have hi'herio done little towards discharging the duties flowing from these engagements; and I am confident that to this failure mi our part we may trace nearly the whole disasters which have' fallen on the Colony, from its earliest date to the present time. Until now, we have never seriously recognized the fact th'it the task lay upon us uf en leavi>uring to civilize, educate; and govern this' people. We hate indeed so fat respected their right to their lands, that we have’ never attempted to »ake‘ them except through' their vo uniary cession, but we never legardcd the.-»e land rights as part of that pu-’ litical system which the Crown by its assumption of Sovereignty, bound itself io organize for and amongst them. We have never looked at Native lands from tae Native side of the question. We have reg rded them solely, from our point of View, wi'h tefertiice to the progress of colonization. Ot/ti only object has been present to us —how to obiniti irum tjtem their iabd (or purp scs of culunizittio.i Her Majesty’s' exclusive right of pre-emption has been the ii suumctil by which we have h t.ieiio worked fortius end, and wv treat that right as sacred because it is the'only means'by which We t,Hp'.v war

jnn ensure our object. Sir, as to that point, I believe the law ««f colonisation to be based upon a great truth. I see, with some regret, all our old doctrines on that subject thrown overboard by gentlemen zealous for tl e tights of the Natives, and who, I think, push them to a pt eposterons extreme. In fulfilling the work <•( colonization we are fulfilling one of our appointed tasks. It is our duty to bring the waste places of the earth into cultivation, to improve and people them. It.was the law laid U) on our first parents —to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it,- —to restore the wilderness 'o its original gardenlike condition. In doing this work we are fulfilling our mission. As matter of abstract theory, I utterly deny that the lands of these favored islands were meant by Providence to be retained in a state <if waste—that a territory as large in extent and possessing as great natural advantages as the British Islands, was to be rendered for ever inaccessible tn civilization, and forbidden to the use of man by an imaginary title vested in 50 or 60,000 semi-barbarous inhabitants scattered thinly over the country in miserable villages in a few scarcely perceptible spots. I deny that in the sense of any inherent right this people can maintain their exclusive title to forests and, plains which they never trod and mountains teeming probably with unlimited store of wealth which it may be they never have seen. Those who in opposition to such imaginary rights maintain and assert the rights and duties of colonization have to my mind great truths on their side. In conformity with these truths the work of colonization proceeds. Throughout the Middle Island, where practically the Native title is extinguished, it is proceeding with great rapidity and success—let me add with the greatest advantage to those few Natives themselves who are there resident, and who in surrendering their imaginary title for a scarcely appreciable sum of money have reaped infinite advantage by the exchange. I call your attention to the remarkable increase in the value of some lands reserved for the Natives at Canterbury. There is a block of about 1500 or 2000 acres set apart for them there. The re idem Natives of that district are few in number. Their title to these lands is being individualized under the Natives Reserves Act. The value of these lands was estimated the other day for the Government at between fort}’ and fifty thousand pound, 20 times iii fact the original purchase money of pretty nearly the whole of the M idd'e Island. There has been no wrong done in this. Ou the contrary it would be a blessing to the Natives if we were permitted to pursue this work. But when we seek to apply these principles practically in the Northern Island, we find ourselves there confronted with antagonistic forces. There rise up against us the rights of the Natives as yet unsurrendered and guaranteed by the treaty of Waitangi, asserted by a resolute semi-barbarous race refusing to surrender them by voluntary cession and prepared to maintain them by arms. So now we are driven to work out, as best we may. this problem,—how to reconcile the peaceful work of colonization with these Native rights? Now let me ask you to take a brief review of the manner in which we have hitherto dealt with this question. Go back to the time preceding the establishment of British sovereignty. During that period large tracts of land had been alienated by the Natives to Europeans—some by legitimate, a good deal by spuiious, transactions. We began by repudiating all indiscriminately—and ignoring all rights based upon dealings with Native owners. Then we found ourselves in conflict with the land claimants, whose claims have never been settled to this day, and which have been a constant source of trouble and perplexity, in this Northern Island. I think our course of policy in this matter was unwise—but it is too late to remedy that. Following the establishment of British Sovereignty, the Queen’s right of preemption, or rather of exclusive purchase, was established, and the land purchase system was founded upon it. We acquired land under that system in the North Island from time to time, in blocks and parcels of varying sizes more or less adapted for colonization, till we have now extinguished the Native Title, perhaps in one third of this island. We h ve expended in these operations large sums of money, and let me add, with very partial success. That system may now be said to have come practically to an end. It may remain as an instrument for acquiring here and there piecemeal a few spots, but as regards the great corpus of the Native estate, and as a means for bringing it under the control of British law. the land purchase system may be pronounced absolutely effete I do not say that that system, had it been fairly and vigorously tried, with ample means, and a fixed adherence to a steady rule of action on the part of the Government, might not have succeeded. 1 remember when I was a member of the Government in 1856 having many conferences with the then Governor, Colonel Browne, —with the Bishop of New Zealand and other persons, as to the practicability of acquiring, by a great effort, the cession from ihe Natives of their entire territorial rights. It was considered, by persons entitled to speak on such a question not altogether impracticable. We were then about to borrow a large sum of money (£180,000) for the purpose of acquiring Native laud. We might have supplemented that amount with as much more for so great an object. But it would have been a necessary condition of success in such a scheme that the Government should meanwhile have wholly abstained from Lind purchasing for a long period, estimated roundly at not less than 7 years. At the end of that time, the necessities of the Natives on the one side, and the great inducements which might have been held out

to them in money and reserves, and plans of colonization and civil institutions for their benefit, might have brought them into a surrender of their claims if not by one, at least by a few large and comprehensive operations. But the clamour for land for colonizing purposes was too loud fur such a proposal to find favour. The Provincial Governments, representing the settlers*interest, would not have submitted even for so great an object to sane tion the suspension for a while of the endeavour tn acquire land for their pressing Provincial exigencies, and the General Government would have been too feeble to resist the pressure from without. I returned to the Colony in 1859. The land purchase fund was in course of exhaustion, the time was gone by for trying that experiment. Now, I believe at that period, and from thence downwards to the beginning of the Taranaki war, and even in the earlier stages of that war, it was open to us to attempt with a prospect of success another plan for settling the Native land question, and opening the country for colonization without violence. 1 believe this might have been done by well,devised plans of systema* tic colonization, in which large advantages might have been secured to the Natives, and in which by the natural motives of self interest, they might have been brought to concur. I endeavoured in 1859, and again in 1860, and during the session <f 1860, to urge on the Government at least to attempt such a plan. But they listened to me with a deaf ear. Their efforts seem to have been exhausted in the resultless and almost aimless scheme of the Territorial Rights Bi.l, which, as we know, came to an untimely end. That opportunity went by. And then came the Taranaki war, with all its surrounding circumstances. That war has totally changed the aspect of affairs. It has altered the relations between the two races, and thrown up a a barrier between them. The Native mind is estranged from us. They desire (at least a large portion of them desire) to withdraw from contact with us. They fence round their land lights with impassable linos, and a King movement is agitated and land leagues are formed, against which the work of colonization can make no head. They have conceived, many of them at least, a distinct idea of establishing a separate nationality, and they guard their territorial boundaries with rigid jealousy in order to the attainment of that object. We can no longer hope for success in our efforts to remove these baniers between the races by any such expedients, ns those to which I have hitherto adverted. And yet, somehow or another, to avert greater calamities, we must throw down the wall of separation between ns and them. 'The consequences will otherwise be fatal to them and disastrous to ourselves. I can perceive nothing which remains to us but to set aside, for the present at least, theoiies of systematic cdonization which aie no longer practicable, and under properly guarded conditions to admit the rights of Native ownership, transmuting them carefully into rights founded on British law and assimilated as nearly as ma, be to our own. And we must trust to oilur remedial agencies fur correcting or mitigating the possible mischiefs to which this may lead. I can well understand the jealousy which may be ft It at the apparent surrender of so vast an estate to the absolute disposal of the Natives. We are about to place between 15 and 20 millions of acres of land in the hands of, and at the disposal of, a people wholly unused to the exercise of such proprietary rights. For my own part,

lam not over apprehensive on that score. These uncultivated wastes of which we are about to transfer Ihe dominion and fght of disposal to an ignorant and barbarous people, without capital and without skill, are in their hands comparatively worthless. In the natural order of things and by the ordinary laws of social economy they must for the most pait rapidly pass into the hands of those who have appliances and means to turn them to account. It is true, that the manner in which this transition may be brought about, may be at variance with all our pre-conceived notions of the true laws of colonization, and land may be monopolized by individuals in large masses. So soon, however, as the}' pass out of the hands of the Natives, there arises another power —the great instrument of Colonization and Improvement—the power of Taxation, which is a sure corrective of the evils of monopoly, and which is certain to be applied in due time *And if it should so happen that through the enlargement of the power of the Natives over the disposal of their lands some of them should become the possessors of great wealth —the foundersit may be of future families of the Native Race incorporated with our own, do not let us regard such a result with jealousy. That will be in future years the best monument we can raise to the justice of our dealings with this people. And do not let us trust in the chance of something being done by-and-bye. . Can we afford to delay the settlement of this question ? . I ask you to look at that tide of Immigration which is setting in,— from the development of our gold fields and other causes. Who can foresee what political changes may take place in the political circumstances of the Colony before another session. The control of political affairs may pass into new hands who may not be disposed to deal with the subject in the same spirit with ourselves, or to recognise those Native rights which can only be contested at the cost of a deadly struggle between the races. The measure before us appears to me the only means of escaping from such a risk. Earnestly trusting that the Government will permit us to consider freely the details of this measure, relying at all events on its being submitted to the Imperial authorities before it becomes law, I shall, not without much anxiety, but from a clear sense of on overruling necessity, give my vole for the second reading of this Bill.

Mr. Hall said, the arguments for and agains the Bill bad been stated with candour and grea ability by the last speaker, and as so stated, the’ weight of evidence appeared to him (Mr. II? greatly against the measure. The features of the Bill were prevision for ascertaining and fixing the titles of Natives to land, and granting certificates of such title. After that the Native owner might either sell or lease the la nil as b? pleaded, or it might be disposed of under regulations to be made by the Governor which would provide for the improvement of the land by roads, bridges, schools, &c. The latter feature was borrowed fiom the Bill of the Fox Ministry ; be (Mr. H.) liked it far better than the other alternative. The Bill also enabled Natives to exchange their certificate for a Crown Grant, on paying 2s. 6d. per acre, but they might sell even without this. The Council was asked to pass the Bill as a measure of justice to the Natives as well as on grounds of expediency. He (Mr. H.) was anxious to do all possible justice to the Maoris, he denied they were not really represented in the Genera) Assembly ; that body represented them as well as Parliament at home did the unenfranchised classes. It was the duty of the Council to watch as carefully over the interests of Natives as Europeans, probably more so as they were less able to take care of their own. He denied that as a measure of justice this Bill could be claimed for the Natives; by the treaty of Waitangi they expressly renounced the power of direct sale to private individuals, they had been guaranteed possession of their land, but not the power to transfer it except to the Crown ; therefore, as an act cf justice, they could not claim this measure. As an act of policy he (Mr. H.) could not agree to it either. It wss alleged the Maoris were clamorous for this privilege and that it would allay disturbance. No evidence of this kind had been produced ; the numerous reports on the table from civil commissioners and other officers long known authorities on Native subjects were in the opposite direction. In one or two districts the Natives seemed anxious for a power to lease their lands, and this could be tolerated under the existing law. In one case also, viz., Wairarapa, some Natives appeared desirous of power to sell to Europeans direct, but the feeling elicited in almost every other place he would shew by quotations. Mr. Clendon writing from the Bay of Islands, says,— I have not noticed any general agitation among the people here, either for the individulixationof their titles to land, and change in the mode of sale, or for the relaxation of the sale of Spirits Ordinance; though such matters are occasionally discuased and find some advocates.

Mr. Drummond Hay, the District Commissioner at the Thames says,— The Natives who advocate the King movement are those who see in it the only hope of retaining their land, and by retaining their land the only hope of preserving their status in l the country. They affirm, that io parting with this land, the Maori parts with all that entitles him to any consideration ; and ihat by ceding land the Maori paves the way for his becoming the humble dependant of the European. Mr. T. H. Smith, Assistant Native Secretary reports : — The Crown’s right of preemption over Native lands is generally regarded by the Native tribes ns a protection against undue encroachment by the Pakeha; while they believe that the cession of their territory is optional, and is admitted to be so by the Government, they feel secure from evils which would otherwise be apprehended from the occupation of their country by a more powerful race.

The evidence given before the Board of enquiry on Native matters, which was appointed by the late Governor, was almost entirely against any wish for direct purchase on the part of the Natives. Mr. Turion, a well known authority states :— The general desire, so far as I have observed, is not for any direct system of purchase, so much as that no land may be purchased at all ; and very seldom have I even ht ard them complain (except when prompted by others) either of our mode of acquisition or of the amount of purchase money they have received. Not having heard these things amongst themselves for so many years it seems straugc to me that such a complaint should now be raised, and that so many Europeans should join it. It was therefore an untrue assertion that the Natives wished to sell their land to Europeans direct. What they wished to do now, was not to sell at all. Government had been constantly blamed for “leasing” the Natives for land; it was said lobe very important not to rouse by such proceedings the suspicions of the Maoris, especially at this particular time. Attempts were in progress to get them to accept the newlnsliiutious proposed by Sir G. Grey ; they hesitated in many cases out of suspicion that all we wanted was to get their land. Mr. Baker after visiting the East Cape district says in his report:— I feel it to be my duty again to state that the Ngatr porou are extremely jealous of any attempt to acquire (by purchase or deed of gift) any portion of their land, Even though they had themselves opened the question. I found it necessary to be extremely cautions; the very word “whenua” used by an agent of the government, seemed sufficient to arouse suspicion and distrust. Mr. Hunter Brown, who bad been deputed io ascertain the feeling of the Natives on another part of the East Coast, reports from one place :— One man declared that he meant to stick to the King becuuse he “whakatapn” (makes sacred) their land ; another “because he is the Maori King.” Herein are seen the strength of the opposition to us, and of their adherence to the King; fear for their land, fear for their nationality, fear “lest they should be made slaves to the Queen.”

From another place he writes— We had a second talk at this place in consequence of the arrival of a party of about twenty from Muungnpoliatn, including Molli, chief man at that place. This Molli made rather a frantic speech, taunting us with coming to take land. And from a third— In their speeches great soreness and diitrust were shewn ; going back—as they invariably do—to the coining of the first “law’’(the law of God or the Gospel), Erueti asserted that the Missionaries work was ail a plot planned beforehand to pave the way for the acquisition of land; that the Missionaries told the Maoris to look to Heaven, and then, whilst they were looking to Heaven stole away the land from’them! One man asked point blank—” What is there under all this? I am looking for the *whewhe’ (boil or inflammation) under this 1 ’’ Mr. Law, who had been appointed to introduce the New Institutions io tbe important district of Taupo, reports,— Their ‘ mutunga ’ was 1 we do not object to your Kaiwhakawa or to bis tikanga so much, our only fear is that he may introduce land purchase—if such is not the case, and wc see good arise from his work, wc will be with you.’

I: was of the last importance that nothing should occur at this jnnctuie to arouse the suspicions of designs on their land ; that the Government Agents should not urge or even in some cases accept sales of land. The success of the Govetner’s Native policy depended in some measure on this. Yet at this crisis, the Government introduce a measure which would let loose upon the Maoris a whole flock of land teasers greedy lor land, often not very scrupulous as to their mode of influencing the Native mind, certainly unchecked by any consideration of the public evil they may effect by arousing the Native jealousy on the subject of their territorial property. If he (Mr. H.) had wished to devise a scheme for frustrating the success of the new Institutions, which began to promise so fairly, and on which so much of the future welfare of the Maori race was' said to depend, he could not have devised one better adapted "for the purpose than the bill under consideration. Ls effect upon the Native character he believed would be very prejudicial. The object of the well-wisher of the Maori should not be merely to pour wealth into his lap; it was a nobler task—to wean him from listless idle improvident habits, and to train him to habits of steady industry, perseverance and thrift. The operation of ibis Bill would be just the opposite of this. It would give the Maoris large sums of money without exertion on their part, and as experience bad shewn, teach them habits of extravagance and confirm them in habits of indolence; it would have the worst effect on their character. The Bill would be quite as injurious to the colonists. It would doubtless enrich a few persons engaged in Native trade, and enable a tribe of wealthy Land-shatks conversant with Native language and habits, to become possessed of large tracts of valuable land, to the exclusion of the real working settler who would have to pay dearly to the speculator for land. By annihilating the land revenue, the Bill would of course stop all further progress in roads, bridges, and public works, Immigration, and anything like systematic colonization, and reduce the North Island to the loose irregular settlement which the acceptance of New Zealand as a colony was intended to put a stop to. Although a fee of 2s. 6d. was to be paid in certain cases mentioned in one of the clauses, practically the Natives were allowed to sell without any lee whatever. Against this course he (Mr. H.) appealed to the opinion of Mr. Richmond who bad strongly objected to it, and whose opinions would always in that Council be listened to with respect. It appealed Io him that the alteration which this Bill would effect in the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi, was one which the General Assembly had no authority to effect. Even the Crown could not do so without the consent of the other contracting parties. It was childish to say that seme of them would consent. This was as insufficient as would be that a few of the members of the United States to a Treaty made between the United Slates and Great Britain, *1 here must be a general consent of which there was not the slightest evidence. Lastly, the attempt to permit direct purchase was a direct violation of the 73rd section of the Constitution Act, which section the calonisis were precluded from altering. How could it be expected in the face of this, that the Bill would not be disallowed at Home. He (Mi. H.) had considered the Bill with a desiie to avoid opposing the Government if possible. But he believed it would be so destructive to systematic and healthy colonisation, so ruinous to the best interests of the Naiives, so clearly beyond the power of the Assembly to pass, and so especially inopportune, as bidding fair to mar tbe success of Institutions which were being built at great cost for the benefit of the Native race, that he felt compelled to vote against it. (Hear, hear.) Colonel Russell said while he did not look upon the Bill as salisfactory, he did not wish the present state of things to continue. If all land sales were to cease it would be necessary to obtain land in some way, and if not obtained lawfully it would be obtained by other means. The pioneers were still pressing to the East Cape, and this summer would not pass without extensive districts being illegally occupied unless the Government took some steps to settle ibis question. It was an absurdity to say that all the land was to be reserved for the Natives. Since he (Col. R.) had been in the country tbe Native population had diminished one half, and if this goes on we should be locking up the lands to a still greater extent. He was opposed to ihe Bill which he thought came in a questionable shape before them, but be was satisfied some legislation was required, be would therefore vote for the second reading in iu hope that such alterations would be made in committee as would rentier tbe measure more palatable. Colonel Kenny said tbe Bill now before the Council had been so fully discussed elsewhere that it would be a mere exercise of ingenuity to endeavour to say anything new on the subject. Nevertheless, on a question cf such importance, he was anxious to offer a few observations as to bis own views in reference to the Bill, and the course he intended to take respecting it. He was not satisfied as to the real object and principle of the measure, and was full of doubt as to what would be its results. He had listened with great attention to the able speech of the Hon. ihe Attorney General, but the effect bad been to increase tbe doubt snd difficulties he had previously experienced. The Hou, and learned gentleman had shown that there were dangers on ■ill sides—on the one hand, the danger of remaining stationary and doing nothing on the subject ; and on the other hand, the difficulty and risk that wnnld be incurred in carrying into effect the details of the Bill. Tbe 1100°, and learned gentleman bad also stated that while a member of the former Ministry, another measure lor dealing with the Native lands had been prepared, which he preferred to that now before the Council thereby shewing what uncertainty cf opinion existed on the subject. Altogether tic, (Col. Kenny) thought that the arguments of the Attorney General weighed rather against the ex-

pediency of passing the Bill under consideration. For bis own part, be felt that none of bis scrup'es had been removed, by anything that had yet been urged in its favour. Again, there was the decided opinion of Her Majesty’s ministers, as stated in the despatch of Lord Carnarvon, against substituting individual and direct putcliase of land from the Natives, for tbe system of purchase by tbe Government alone, as provided by the treaty of Waitangi. On the other hand, there was the opinion of Sir George Grey, as set forth in his scheme of Native policy, io favour of tbe introduction of direct putchase, as a measure of necessity and expediency, at the present time. But then His Excellency io his plan recommended, among other conditions, restriction as to the quantity of land to be purchased by a European, and also occupancy ol the land—neither of which conditions were provided for in the Bill before tbe Council. Il was true that it bad been said by the Hon. gentleman representing the Government, that tbe Governor had concurred m tho introduction of the present Bill, but that consent might have been given reluctantly, and it did not follow that tbe Bill was approved of by His Excellency. His own scheme was that which set forth his own views and opinions on the subject. However accepting the assurance that the measure bad the concurrence of the Governor, and seeing that, after the fullest discussion, it had come to them from the House ol Representatives, he would not oppose the second rending—but he trusted that it would be modified in Committee, or be was afraid he should not be able to vote for the third reading. He would only add that the Bill under its original title, professed to be for the benefit of the Native race —its professed object was to remove restrictions to which they were at present subject, by placing them on an equality with the Europeans in regard to their lauded property. Now, if thia were really the case, why did not that principle run through the Bill—why was it partial in its effects—why should cettain lands be specially exempted from its operation 1 Whatever might be said as to the object and principle of the Bill, it was impossible to disguise the fact that private interests, at.d provincial interests bad entered very largely into the consideration of the measure. It should be remembered that the treaty of Waitangi, whatever might be the opinions held with respect to it, had its origin, al least, in a sense of justice on the part of the Government towards tbe Native race. Tn professing therefore to relax its provisions for tbe benefit of the Natives, let us beware that we were not actuated by a spirit of insincerity and selfishness, and that, while pretending to promote their advantage we are only seeking our own interests. In that case, should those difficulties and complications ensue from the working of the measure, which some persons seemed to apprehend, we should not merely have ourselves to blame for our own legislation on tbe subject, but should also have the lamentable reflection that those results were a merited retribution. Mr. Tancred said, the strongest arguments brought against tbe measure were tho’se from Lord Carnarvon’s despatch, but by a reference to the despatch of the Duke of Newcastle of sth June, 18G1, to Sir G. Grey, on his appointment as Governor, it would be seen that the opinions of tbe Home Government had undergone a complete change with respect to tbe subject of direct purchase; that they were of a different opinion now, and this would be a complete answer to any arguments founded on tbe views of tbe Home Government, and also, to some of the arguments of tlie Attotney-Genetal. He thought that a well considered measure passed by tbe Assembly would be accepted by the Home Government. The objections of the bon. member (Mr. Crawford,) did not apply to the Bill in its present state. Where feuds existed, provision was made against proclaiming the law in those districts, for instance no attempt would be made to proclaim this law in the district of Waitara. There must be a certain amount of confidence placed in public men, that they would make such exceptions iu bringing the law into operation as were necessary. The bon. member (Mr. Hall) bad adduced a few witnesses to shew the Natives were not favourable to the plan of direct purchase. (Mr. Bell, there are plenty more.) He (Mr. T.) did not think the Natives would sell at a smaller price to the Government if they could obtain a larger price from private individuals. The bon. member (Mr. Hall) further objected to throwing such large sums ol money io tbe hands of the Natives as calculated to prevent tbeir acquiring those habits of thrift and industry which it was our object to teach them. He would only reply that if in twenty-two years we bad not taught them those habits, how touch longer were we to wait ? There was one more argument to which he would refer. It was said this measure would do away with systematic colonisation by doing away with the funds applied to this purpose. There was some force in this argument, but if they were just to the Natives these considerations would not weigh fora moment. We

had to strike the balance of loss or gain between the different policies. Onr first thought should be to do justice to the Nativesand he had no doubt we should then surmount the difficulties with which this question was surrounded. The amendment was then put and the Council divided. Ayes 4, —Messrs. Hall, Stokes, Johnston, Crawford. Noes 8, — Major Richmond, Col. Russell, Col. Kenny, the Attorney General, Messrs. Tuncred, Menzies, H. Russell, Cutfield. The Bill was then read a second time. The Council then went into committee ou the Bill.

On moving the 17tlt clause Mr. Hall proposed tbe following amendment:— But no certificate shall entitle any tribe, community, or person named therein, to sell, exchange, or lease for a longer period than seven years, or dispose of any land or interest thereby affected unless suclt certificate shall have been indorsed by the Governor, and sealed under the public seal of the Colony as aforesaid, and the amount payable on such indorsement and sealing be duly paid. After some discussion the House divided. Ayes 9, —Tbe Attorney General, Col. Kenny, Messrs. Menzies, Cutfield, 11. Russell, Hall, Stokes, Johnston, Crawfotd, Noes 3, —Col, Russell, Mr. Tancred, Major, Richmond. A further amendment was proposed by Col. Kenny to tbe following effect :— Provided that no suclt sole, disposal, or exchange to any person shall include more than one thousand acres. The Committee divided. Ayes 5, —Col. Kenny, Messrs. H. Russell, Hall, Johnston and Stakes. Noes. 7—Mr. Tancred, the Attorney-General, Col, Russell, Major Richmond, Messrs. Menzies, Culfiebl, Crawford. The remaining clauses were passed through committee without alteration and tbe Council having resumed the Bill was read a third timt and passed. A message was received from the House oh Representatives, that the Public R< serve.Amendment Act had been passed with amendments, which were agreed to. The Council then adjourned.