An Important Interview with Stanley.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 957, 4 July 1890, Page 9

An Important Interview with Stanley.

Mr Stanley granted an interview recently to a representative of the Manchester Guardian, who went to him with the latest telegrams from Berlin on tbs subject of the German claims in East Africa in his hand.

‘ Do you know who was primarily responsible for sending the Germans to East Africa ?’ Mr Stanley asked. ‘ It was I. I came back from the Congo in IS7B profoundly impressed with the value and fertility of the interior. It was evident to me that Africa must before long become the great question that it is. I came home determined in my own mind that England must be first in the work of settling and civilising the new continent. As soon as I had finished my book I began to lecture on the subject. Between the time of my arrival and the month of December of the same year I gave sixty lectures in different parts of England, telling what I had seen and laying out plainly before the people of this overorowded working country the riches of the scarcely inhabited districts which are waiting for them to develop. I put my whole heart into the work. I did all I could to rouse the interest which, to my mind, the subject deserved. My lecture:, produced their effect, but it was not iu this country. England remained apathetic. I was rewarded with the indifference of the public and the jeers of the press. Germany, Belgium, Portugal, woke up. They saw what I had wanted my own countrymen to see, that a new werld was waiting to be civilised. My lectnres were translated and read all over the Continent. The King of the Belgians Bent for me and asked me to undertake the opening of the regions of the Congo. I left for Africa in his service on June 19, 1879. In August of 1882 I was home again. It was proposed to form the International Association of the Congo. Again I felt that England ought te have her part in this international undertaking. I lectured again, especially to the London Chamber of Commerce and the Associated Chambers of Commerce. This time I was more warmly welcomed. The press, which had been contemptuous became complimentary, but the feeling that I stirred up was personal. The public did not grasp the idea that what I wanted was not personal admiration, not individual sympathy, however kindly given, but to rouse the country to a sense of duty in this matter. I need not repeat the arguments which must weigh with a great country like this when there is a great work to be done. I felt that we could do it, and do it well. But no ; England would not be roused. Men shrugged their shoulders. I was. a dreamer. My schemes were utopian. In fact, I realised how true it is that under the temptation of the word “Quixotic’.’ the devil eaters into us at times to chill all hearty endeavour and to take the soul out of our work. So England missed her chance. The International Association, of which she ought to have been the life and leader, was formed without her, and in 1882 I went out for it to explore another thousand miles, to push on from Stanley Pool to Stanley Falls, and to discover the Congo lakes. What happened then is happening again. Then as now, there was plenty of sympathy to be met with among men who thought. Then as now, I found almost everyone with whom I talked secretly permeated with the idea of the great possibilities of England’s future destiny ; bat no one would acknowledge is in public. The great centres were silent. Everyone was waiting for a lead, and no one led. The newspapers somehow don’t succeed in ganging the public mind. Instead of gathering and reflecting the general opinion, they watch the utterances of great men, and in their tnrn the great men watch the papers. They do not say what they think. They say what they believe that the press and public will scoept. Only the other day I heard one of our greatest men express in private on this very subject sentiments worthy of a Frobisher or a Drake. Do you suppose he will utter them in public? Not he. He will speak in public to tho level of the newspapers which report his speeoh. The man who works for England in this servioe works with the publio hand as it were on the soruff of his neck, ready at every moment to drag him back. So much for the English side cf the story. * The prinoipal feeling that I have with regard to the German claims in that part of Afriea is of amazement at their modesty, Have they not found all aiong that they know their own minds and that we do not know ours? We are in a happy vein of giving. Germany knows right well how to ask. I am only surprised that she does not ask more. Look at the question of Kilima Njaro, f The young Emperor would like it for a sanatorium. He is interested iu the flora and the .fauna, “oh, yes, tell Hatz /.iji. *- ——l. ; t- n n O'-* t i j a. - » xemu tu noiv iur u* urniu’- guea to the Foreign Office, is received with gentle courtesy by a Secretary of State who chiefly desires to be left in peace on a subject in which the country is not interested. “ Tho young Emperor is attracted by the flowers of Kilimanjaro.” “No doubt; yes, they are very Interesting.” ■ ‘ He would like to have the mountain included in the Garman territory.” “By all means, certainly.” Such, and the thing is done. Why, if Spain knew as weli as Germany how to ask, she would have had Gibraltar long ago. If France knew how to ask, she would have iEgypt 5 if Russia knew how to ask, she anight get India. Fortunately for ns, only ■Germany so far understands the art in its perfection. German methods are not our methods. When the law of neighbourly 'dealing oomes to the artiole * What is mine is mine, and what is yours may possibly be yours,” Germany knows how to apply it; we do not. Our Government lets question ■after question slide, and our newspapers, ■which ought to be the sentries of national well-being, are deaf and dumb. The upshot of it all is that the servants of Germany are «ble to count confidently upon support at tiome, and the servants of England must be nnnfonf M vl. °i a * • Muuoir tuo DUIKIUW OI in* difference. The question lies now ouoe more

before the country. In the courge of our| late expedition we made treaties for England with all the chiefs to the very limits of the Congo territory. It is not desirable to discuss the matter just at present in detail, but the plain fact was announced at the Albeit Hall the other night, and is therefore public property. The Germans, according to the telegrams, claim to go up northward through tha t district. Are we this time to be supported as the Germans are, or are we to be disavowed ? If we are to be disavowed, it is in my opinion the beginning of the end. The Germaos have been very successful in their way of getting territory,, and they will go on- If you are strong and choose to use your elbows without too much regard for the weaker people round about, you will find I that the weaker people yield, and that little by little yon get the space you want. Have you ever seen in one of our big railway stations on old gentleman politely walking alcng ? A strapping young fellow, keen to catch hia train, flies past him and treads upon his toes. “ Sir,” says the old gentleman, drawing himself up, “you have trodden upon my toes.” “ Keep your toes in your pocket, if you don’t like it,” throws the young rough over his shoulder, and the matter is ended. The old gentleman complains, hufc what is that to the fellow who has caught; his train? Well, the old gentleman is England, and the young fellow is Germany.’ None the less Mr Stanley expressod warm admiration for Major Wiss mnnn. ‘He has done his duty. There is plenty of room in East Africa for hoth Germans and English, and I wish him nothing but success in his o vn' sphere. Were I in his place, with the young German Emperor »t my back, I would do what he is doing. I would not do it quite in his way. But with my own methods and the unqualified support of the Home authorities I would engage, without firing a shot, to drive every Englishman by mere force of circumstances out of Central Africa.’ Mr Stanley sketched the plan upon which, as a German, he would work in Übe German sphere. • As an Englishman, this is what I want to see in the English sphere. A railway should be constructed as soon as possible from Mombassa to Lake Victoria Nyanz*. Steamers on the lake would carry communications to within eighty miles of Lake Albert. The two lakes should be oonneoted by rail, and steamers on Lake Albert would carry the communication on again to Duffle, That is to say, 200 miles of lake and river navigation would throw open the whole oentre o>f Africa, and the magnificent countries' of Uganda and Ungaro would become available for settlement. The sources of th 6 Nils and the Equatoiial province are at our feet. From Duffle, which is above the cataraot, to T,ado, which is below it, there are sixty miles of land. After that there is good water transit to the Mediterranean. Tbequestion is—Does England care? It is for public opinion to say, and the means through which It should express itself is the press. I myself have been thinking aboat Africa and African problems ever since I weut to Abyssinia in 1867. I have worked questions out for myself slowly, bit by bit. I don’t wonder that England has been slow to be roused. Such an awakening takes time, but I do wonder to find that it is not done ynt, and that she still lags behind countries like Belgium and Portugal.’