PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 860, 24 August 1888, Page 30

PARLIAMENT.

LEG-ISLATJTE COUNCIL

THURSDAY, AUGUST IG. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. PETITION FROM MAORI CHIEFS. Mr Waterhouse presented a petition from three Maori chiefs, who complained that the Natives had been afforded no opportunity of considering the various clauses of the Maori Bills which had been passed by the House of Representatives, and which so seriously affeoted the Native race. The petitioners therefore begged that they might be heard at the bar of the Council. Mr WATERHeusif- moved that the three chiefs referred to might be heard at the bar of the Ccnncil on the following day at 3 p.m. The motion was agreed to. The Attorney-General said that as there was another Maori Bill to come up that day, he thought it would be advisable to postpone the second readings of the Native Bills which were on the Order Paper, and take them after the Native chiefs had been heard at the bar. He intended moving on the following day, after the chiefs had been heard next day, that the House at its rising on Friday adjourn to Monday, at 2.30 p.m. native land bill. This Bill came up from the House of Re. presentatives, and was read a first time, the second reading being fixed for the first sitting of the Council after to-morrow (Sriday). SLAUGHTERHOUSES AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. RIVER BOARDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments in this Bill —with two slight alterations —as made by the House of Representatives were concurred in. The Council at 3.10 adjourned to the following day. > FRIDAY, AUGUST 17. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. MONDAY SITTING. Sir F. Whitaker moved that the Council, at its rising, he adjourned to 2.30 p.m. on Monday. Motion was agreed to. disqualification of seats committee. The report of this Committee was considered. „ - On the motion of Dr Pollen, it was agreed that each member whose seat was disputed should address the Council on his individual case, and this having besn done the hon members should retire till the Council had arrived at a determination on their respective cases. The motion was agreed to. The Attorney-General, addressing the Council, referred to the ease of Mr Gibbon, of the Legislative Council of Queensland, who it had been deoided by the Legislative Council of that Colony, had not forfeited his seat through being absent from his seat for two consecutive sessions, although this decision had been reversed by the Lords of the Privy Council. The Attorney-General pointed out that he had not been absent for the whole of two consecutive sessions, and therefore he had not forfeited his seat. Mr Waterhouse remarked that his case was similar to the Attorney-General s, Mr Oliver said that he had obtained an extended leave of absence from the Governor after the first leave of absence had expired. Mr PharAzyn observed that his case wae similar to that of the Attorney-General, and he was quite willing to leave the matter to She good sense of the Council. Cfbo bon members interesteu ;ta.eii retired at ths request of the Speaker. Dr Pollen remarked that he felt Batisfied tiisb none of the hon gentlemen had forfeited tii«£r seats. He moved that in the opinion of tha Council the seats of the hon gentlemen had not been forfeited by reason of their absence. ~ , After a debate, in which Mr Buckley and Mr Wilson expressed the opinion the hon’members interested had their seats, the motion was put and yarned on the voices. , , __ , The Council at 4.30 adjourned to Monday next.

MONDAY, AUGUST 20. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. THE LATE DR. MENZIES. The Attorney-General said that it was with the deepest regret he had to announce the death of Dr Menzies, who was the oldest member of the Council, he having been called to the Upper House in 1858. He believed that hon members would agree with him when he said that none of their colleagues in the Council had brought to bear upon their work a greater amount of ability than had the late Dr Menzies; and he felt assured that the Council would join with himiDex. pressing the deepest sympathy with Mrs Menzies and her children in the loss they bad sustained. He moved, as ala 3“ 1 YvJ of respect to the memory of the deceased gentleman, that the Council do ROW adjourn. The motion was agreed to, and the Council, at 2.35, adjourned to the following hay-

TUESDAY, AUGUST 21. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. i WELLINGTON COLLEGE, Mr Reynolds asked the AttorneyGeneral—U) Whether the attention of the Government has been called to the Provin--Dial District Auditor’s remarks on the W ellington College and Girls High School. < 2 ) What course the Government intend to take to have a proper balance-sheet submitted by the Gwernors to the Auditor, so that he mav certify to the same as being correct. _ The Attorney-General, in reply, said that the attention of the Government had been called to the question, and they saw no reason to suppose that the law insisted upon separate accounts being kept as between the two insitutions. THE WELLINGTON FOIST OFFICE. Mr Reynolds asked the Attorney-General —(1) What will be the c°Bt, unaer the contract, of reinstating the Wellington Post Office. (2) Whether he can approximately state what amount will be required for extras outside the contract? (2) What proportion of the total cost is attributable to the erection of a tower for a clock ? (4) What is the probable cost of the clock, together with fitting it up? {5) What sum is to be contributedby outside bodies towarathccost of the tower and clock, and placing the latter in its position 2 . - . T „ The ArrOBSEYiCrENEXUL said, in reply,

that the contract for reinstating the building was £14,501, which amount included all extras, and the building of the clock-towei, which would cost £720. The estimated cost of the clock, including five bells, would amount to £855, the provision tor which would not be borne by the Government.

NATIVES AT THE BAR. _ _ The following Natives, who had petitioned the Council, were heard at the bar of the Council in opposition to the Native Bills at present before the Legislative Council:—Paora Tuhaere, Wiromu Pomaie, Ahuhata Hori Tupaea. The chiefs obiected to the Bills being passed until they had been duly considered by a representative meeting of the Native tribes throughout both islands, which it bad been arranged should be held in March next at Waitangi. Personally the chiefs before the bar said they were opposed to the Bills, and they said that thev believed they expressed the feeling of the" Native race generally when they said that the Maoris desired to deal with their own lands and fisheries as they deemed right as between man and man and seller or buyer, irrespective as to nationality or colour. AMENDMENTS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. The Council concurred in the amendments of the other branch of the Legislature in the Interpretation Bill and the Coroners Act Amendment Bill. NEW NATIVE BILL. The Crown aud Rating Native Act Amendment Bill was received from the House of Representatives, and was read a first time. THE NATIVE BILLS. Acting on the generally expressed desire of the Council, The Attorney-General said he would speak to the Native Land Bill, the Native Frauds Prevention Pill, and the Native Land Court Act Amendment Bill, and having reviewed the provisions of the Bills, he moved the second reading of the first mentioned B *Mr Waterhouse, at considerable length, criticised the Native measures before the Council. Be remarked that the operations of the Bills would, in his opinion, act injuriously to the Native race, and would also create a race of “ mean whites,” a state of things much to be deprecated. Although he did not intend the motions for the second reading of the Bills,he intended in committee moving several amendments. SirG. S. Whitmore followed, and was speaking when the Council adjourned for dinner at 5 o’clock.

EVENING SITTING. The Council resumed at 7.30 pm. THE MAORI BILLS. Sir G. S. Wiiltmore continued the debate on the motion for the second reading of the Native Land Bill, and said Native race in New Zealand had received far greater consideration than any other aboriginal race had ever received at the hands of a white governing race. The hon. gentleman expressed his intention of supporting the motion for the second] reading of the Native Bills, although he might probably endeavour to amend the Bills when they were in committee. Mr Richmond objected to the Native Bills being pushed through the Council so hurriedly as they were sought to be at present, and when they were in committee he amendments in many clauses would be proposed in several of the Bills. _ Mr PharazYN did not oppose the motion for the second reading of the Native Land Bill, but expressed the hope that the Native Affairs Committee, to whom the Bills would be referred, would do their best to do away with complications in Europeans honestly acquiring Native land, and would also do away with all chance of jobbery being effected. He .certainly considered that with the restriction o£ presenting the Maoris from becoming pauperised, there should be no barrier placed in the way freetrade in Native lands. Mr Williams expressed his ■ intention of supporting the second reading of the Bills .under discussion. Mr B- R. Taiaroa remarked that alter listening to the Maoris who had been heard that day at the who were averse to the Native Bills, and haying had a telegram read which was received by the Speaker from certain Natives at Gtaki in favour of the Bill, he confessed he scarcely knew how to vote. He did not intend to vote against the second reading, but would propose amendments when the Bills were in comMr Swanson expressed the hope that the Bills would be dropped until the proposed Native meeting, to be held at Waitangi, had taken place. Mr Wahawaha remarked that ha felt confused by reading so many Bills which had been brought up during the present session, many of which had gone no farther than the niaeon holes of hon members and the waste paper baskets. The hon gentleman criticised the provisions ot the various Native Bills and intimated intention of proposi g amendments when the proposed measures y/are in committee. - .. The motion for the second reading 01 ", Native Land Bill was agreed to on e voices, as also were the Native Lands Frauds Prevention Bill, Native Land Courts Amendment Bill, and the Maori Real Estate Management Bill, all the Bills being referred to the Native Affairs Committee. LOCAL BILL. The Auckland Hospital Reserves Amendment Bill was read a second time. MINJNG bill. Mr Richmond mov.ed that the Council insist npon their amendments in this Bill, and that a committee be appointed to draw up reasons for so insisting. Motion agreed to. The Council, at 10.20, adjourned to the following day. HOUSE OF BEPKESE NTATIVES • THURSDAY, AUGUST 16. The House met at 2.30. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Leave of absence for one week on account of private business was granted to Mr Perceval on the motion of Mr Walker. PROPERTY TAX BILL. On the motion (in committee) that leave be asked to introduce this Bill,

Sit (leorOe Grey moved as an amendment that the words * ‘ property tax ” bo left out; and the words “tax to remove the property tax from improvements and substitute a land tax on the unearned increment, aud an in* come tax in lieu thereof,” be inserted. (Hear, bear.) The Chairman said he could not accept that amendment, the purpose of going into committeo being either to agree to or negative the motion that leave be given to introduce a certain Bill. _ . , Mr Seddon considered it a breach of faith for the Government to bring this large question on after promising that the mail services discussion should be the first order of the day. He moved that progress be reported. The Prbmier said the proper stage to dis. cuss the Bill was on its second reading, and it was difficult to understand this objection, seeing that the financial proposals of the Government had been agreed to. He took exception to Mr Seddon’s tone, and deprecated that gentleman's habit of lecturing the Government and assuming the leadership of a party which did not exist. Sir George Grey contended that a change in taxation was earnestly desired by the country. _ . , Mr Seddon resented the Premiers remarks about him, nnd assured the hon gentleman that he was not to be bought, bounced, sold, cajoled (a Voice : Given away !), or given away. He was as much a leader as half-a-dozen other members oil that side or the House. , , . Mr Ballance considered it unusual to oppose the Bill at this stage. Mr Seddon withdrew his amendment to report progress after a short discussion. Sir George Grey moved an amendment, That this committeo is of opinion that amendments should be made in the propertytax, reducing a system of taxation which is injurious to the interests of the country. The Premier pointed out that this would not reduce the property-tax. No possible cood could come from suoh amendments. It related, also, to another Bill, and was not in order. .... , Colonel Fraser contended that it was now late to raise a point of order, the question having been stated by the Chairman. The Chairman said it was always open to a member to raise a point of order. He ruled the amendment out of order as not pertinent to the question whether or not leave should be asked for the introduction of the Bill. . , ~ Sir George Grey spoke m favour of the principle involved in his amendment, urging that the property-tax was causing people to leave the Colony. Mr Fish was as anxious as Sir George Grey to seo a change in the property-tax, but considered this a bad time. He taunted Sir George with being imbued with a desire to make mischief. On division, the motion was agreed to by 50 to 19, and reported to the House. Sir George Grey then moved his amendment, to add to the original motion (that the House agree with the decision of the Committee) the words “but is of opinion that amendments should be made in the propertytax, altering system of taxation is injurious to the interests of the country. The Premier hoped the House would not alter the incidence of taxation in this way, and thus involve a deficit of £3SO,OQO. If they wished to change the incidence, of taxation, let it be done at the proper time, but in the meantime this Bill should ho passed. Mr W. P. Reeves, speaking in the discussion which ensued, said he and other members should walk out, declining to vote, on the ground that the time was inopportUOn division the amendment was negatived by 40 to 17. , , , - . The Bill was introduced and read a first time. ~ The House at 4.50 adjourned till 7.30.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. MAIL SERVICES. Tin? Premier moved that the House go into committees $9 consider the ocean mail services. Carried, The Premier, in moving fcwe resolutions of which he had given notice, said the’ first, namely, that a two-weekly service should be continued, was the foundation of the others. Some members were in favour of abolishing subsidies to mail services, but he contended that it was absolutely necessary to have sojue regular mail service. The question, then,was,what service they should have, and thcGoverntnent were infavour of afortmghtly service. He understood that there was to be an amendment on this resolution, to the effect that the service should be abolished. After consideration the Government had coipe to the conclusion that It would be wisest to give the Government power under the second resolution, namely, that they should be authorised to negotiate with the other Governments with a view to arranging for a service either via San Francisco or Vancouver - the expenditure ou that route, they nroposed, should not exceed £IB,OOO a year; the present cost being £26,000 a year. They thought the American Government had not dealt" very fairly with them, and that it would be well to try negotiations with the Canadian Government. He Knew that some members this service was an ex-’-e one, that it was a waste of money, pensi- not 800 that. There was no but he co..- the facts, that the public doubt, looking a. Francisco service preferred the San t he change to any other; and since service to a fortnightly service the had even been more largely used. The Direct service, on the other hand, was more largely used from England, though the advantages of the San Francisco service were being recognised there. He quoted figures at length to prove the trulh of his contentions. The total amount now paid for all services w55*£59,226, and the total receipts (including contributions from other colonies) £50,285. That was to say, the cost to what was called the Government was £9OOO a year, exclusive of what the people had to pay in postages. Supposing the House should agree to the third resolution, namely, a monthly service by the Direct, San Francisco, or Vancouver routes, the position would be that if the latter route could be got for £IB,OOO the total cost would be £39,000 (including the Direct service), and our receipts £46,000. It was expected that Canada would be able to get some concessions from the Imperial

route, and that consequently they would be ] prepared to support the Vancouver route. (At this juncture the Premier invited the \ particular attention of Dr Newman, who had, he said, strong opinions on the subject, he believed.) Dr Newman said he had fully made up his mind on the subject, and had to go away for three-quarters of an hour. The Premier regretted to hear that Dr Newman had made up his mind before hear, ing the arguments. Mr Walker : He's going to vote with you. The Premier regretted, all the same, to hear that the member for Thorndon did not recognise that this was a deliberative Assembly. Proceeding to discuss the general question, he said the £7OOO balance was based, of course, on the premises that the Vancouver or San Francisco service was to be obtained for £IS,OOO. With reference to the fortnightly Direct service, the Government would propose to pay by weight. Supposing £30,000 a year was paid for it, and £6OOO for the interprovincial services, the total earniDgs would be £45,956, leaving a direct profit of £IO,OOO. Thus there would be a gain by the Direct service over the San Francisco service of £3OOO. The Government thought the £3OOO would bewell spent. They would keep the connection with Canada, and though he had doubts whether Protection was “ done” in America, and that we should, in consequence, get increased facilities for commerce with her, still he believed they would be able to get New Zealand’s wool in free. He held, also, that it would be a good thing to open up communication with the Old Country through one of her largest dependencies, and that it would be a good thing also to have communication with Canada. He was a great believer in local industry, and had supported the Direct service because of that belief ; but'he could not shut his eyes to the fact that the two Companies which had been carrying on such keen competition.were uniting. And, moreover, they saw in that morning’s paper that the Company which had done most to reduce freights had joined the shipping ring. _ That meant that freights would go up, and in that view he did not think it advisable to subsidise that Company and that alone. It was public talk now that it was proposed to take the Direct service by Melbourne; and if there was an increase of ljd or 2d a lb on frozen meat freight the effect would be to paralyse one of our most important industries. It was not with any company we had to deal now, but with the shipping ring, which would fix freights as it chose. Hon Members : What will the San Francisco route do to alter that ? The Premier said it would do a great deal. (Laughter.) Those members who laughed knew nothing of the subject, or, like Dr Newman, had made up their minds. He contended that the increased passenger traffic would have a large effect on the freight. With respect to the Brindisi or Suez route, he found that if we thought proper we could join the Australian colonies in the contract with the P. and O. Company, and the correspondence would be calculated on the population basis, the total cost being £30,000 for a fortnightly service, but as the receipts would only be £25,000, we should have to pay about £SOOO. Therefore, the Government did not propose that as an alternative route. Finally, the Premier said he should ask the committee to consider the resolutions seriatim, considering whether they should have a fortnightly or monthly service ; whether they should give the Government power to negotiate for a Pacific service, and so on. He hoped the question would be considered entirely from a colonial point of view ; and he maintained that the circumstances showed it most desirable to have a Pacific monthly and Direct fortnightly service. He moved the first resolution—That, in the opinion of this House, a two-weekly mail service should be continued between New Zealand and Great Britain. Mr Ward thought the House should first decide which route was to be taken. He intended to move to amend the first resolution so as to make it that “ the subsidy to the San Francisco mail service be discontinued the second, that the Government communicate v/ith other Governments to ascertain what support could be got for a four-weekly Pacific service uudejr which the boats would call at some New Zealand port; the time not to exceed twenty days between this Colony and Vancouver, and that the information received be submitted ( to the House ; the third he would amend so that the Government should call for tenders for a fortnightly mail service (direct) upon the basis of payment for weight, the aggregate cost not to exceed __ in any one year j the time not to be more than 40 days from and 43 days to New Zealand, the contract not to exceed five years ; and the Bixth he would amend so that if no suitable tender was reoeived the Government be authorised to arrange for a four-weekly service via Brindisi, also ou payment by weight, the cost not to exceed . in any one year. He disclaimed any personal interest in the question, and said a saving of £20,000 could be made in this matter if it was approached properly. He contended that very much more was paid for mail services in this Colony than in other colonies. A fortnightly Direct service could be got for £20,000 or £25,000, and he put it to the House whether for ’ the sake of gaining two days on the homeward and five days on the outuassage It was worth while continuing wai- Francisco service. He cont“e, - ''Her was entirely a corntended that the *«.- - -.„;a there was not mercial undertaking, ana b— , +.hat so much demand for a fast service now . they had the cable. He quoted figures at length to show the superiority of the Direct service, the benefits of which on colonisation were, he contended, very much greater than those of the San Francisco service—that the cargoes and passengers carried by the Direct service were by far the larger. Having combatted the Premier’s arguments, Mr Ward concluded by saying that the Colony should not patronise the San Francisco service, and that the people of Auckland should be the last to complain of paying double via Brindisi, since that had been paid in the South for a longtime. If a Direct service Was arranged, Auckland would share with other parts of the Colony in the benefits.

He was surprised to find the Auckland members, who were so anxious for economy, standing out for the burden which would fall on the country if the San Francisco service were maintained. The question for the House was to consider whether they were to subsidise two services when other aud larger colonies only supported one. (Cheers.) Mr Peacock denied any jealousy on the part of Auckland, and said he was willing to leave the question to be considered on the grounds of speed, economy, and the relations a San Francisco service opened up with other countries. He strongly favoured the adoption of a Pacific route. At the same time he had no hostility to the Direct ser* vice. He trusted that the House would consider the question in a fair and impartial way, and that above all the Colony would not send a large quantity of its mail matter by an Australian route, thereby keeping up an Australian service at the expense of injury to our own. Mr Beetham considered it the duty of the House to discontinue this subsidy to the San Francisco service, on the broad ground of economy. There was no doubt also that the Direct service was contributing very largely to the vital resources of the Colony. He should support Mr Ward’s amendment, that the San Francisco service be discontinued on the termination of the present contract, and hoped that no contract should bo entered into before next session. Mr Ward asked leave to amend his amendment so as to make an addition to the Premier’s clause, “ but that no subsidy shall be given to the San Francisco service.” Mr Fish moved as an amendment. That a four-weekly subsidised service is sufficient between New Zealand and Great Britain. He contended that if there was to be any other service the arranging of it should be left in the hands of the Government. Mr T. Mackenzie considered it absurd that they should subsidise a line for the purpose of connecting with a country which shut our products out by the imposition of high tariffs. Captain Russell contended for the San Francisco line. He censured the JNew Zealand Shipping Company for its grasping policy in the past, and said that if the line was subsidised now freights would be raised higher. Mr Buchanan expressed himself in favour of the Direct service. Mr Withy favoured the San Francisco service. Looking at the question as a colonial one, and apart from any local jealousies, he regretted the statements which had been made in some papers, notably, the New Zealand Times, imputing bad motives to Auckland members. He denied that the San Francisco service was useless or costly, aa had been suggested. At five minutes to 1 Mr Kerr moved to report progress. This was agreed to on the voices, and the House rose, leave beinggiven to sit again the same afternooii. FRIDAY, AUGUST 17. The House met at 2.30. MANAWATU RAILWAY COMPANY’S PETITION. The Waste Lands Committee reported on the petition of this Company, praying that effect might be given to the object and intention of clauses 11 and 12 of the contract they entered into with the Government, or to the alternative claim of the petitioners, “that in the opinion of the Committee the Company have no equitable claim upon the Government.”

Mr Izard moved that the report bn referred back to the Committee. The Committee, he said, had examined a number of witnesses, and the question involved was a very important one. He was the more anxious to have the report referred back be. oause it had been carried by a very small majority—7 to 6 —and it was rumoured in the lobbies that if the Chairman had had a vote he would have given it against the report of the Committee. He proceeded to discuss the matter at issue, remarking that he should confine himself strictly to facts, and that he should espeoially remember that he was speaking in the presence of Mr Ballance. Mr Goldie rose to a point of order, whether Mr Izard, being a large shareholder in and a Director of the Company, could speak on the question. The Speaker said clearly Mr Izard could speak, though he could not vote. Mr Izard said he knew that, and he did not intend to vote. In ISBI (said Mr Izard, proceeding) the Railways Construction and Land Act was passed, njainly with the intention of allowing the Midland and the Manawatn railways to be made. Under that Act a Company was given 30 per cen*; ip land of the value of a line, such value not tq exceed £SOOO a mile. Subsequently a contract was entered into, in 18S2, for the construction of the Manawatu line ; and that contract was laid on the table of the House, and all the neoea. sary formalities gone through. The line ■was Soi miles, and on the basis he had named as being provided in the Act, the , Company which made the line was entitled to land to the value of £126,000, but as a matter of fact they had received £29,505 short of that value, and it was in respect of the deficiency that they petitioned Parliament, th 9 Waste Lands Committee having now reported that the Company had no claim on the Colony. He read the clause iu the contract bearing on the matter, in which the Government admitted that (certain lands being put out of consideration) there was not land available to the extent of £298,805, but stated that if within five years the Government should acquire such land, it should be handed over to the Company. He knew that some said that there was au “if” in the matter that the five years had elapsed, and the land had not been acquired by the Government, therefore a- Company bad no legal claim ; but he tnii Parliament, dealing with the question as oneof equity, Should not strain legal points like that. As a matter of fact the Government did acquire some land in the vicinity very Boon after the contract . was entered into ; and he did not know that * he could not argue that they should have acquired what was necessary. Mr Verrall rose to a point of order, whether Mr Izard was speaking as solicitor of the Company, a shareholder, or Director of the Company, or as a member of the House. The Speaker said Mr Izard was speaking as a member of the House.

Mr Izard went on to quote from Sir John Hall's evidence before the Committee, in which that gentleman (then Fremier) said that certain lands were excluded from consideration when the contract was entered into; that in consequence thove was a deficiency J that certainly he fully expected the deficiency would be made up in the five years ; and that he expected the land would be acquired from the Natives to give it to the Company in that time. Sir Harry Atkinson also said in evidence he expected the deficiency would be made up, and that he considered the Company had an equitable claim. There was a good deal more evidence in the same direction, but he would not quote it. Ho would, however, briefly go over the evidence of two hostile witnesses—Mr Bryce and Mr Ballance. Mr Bryce said he did not purchase the land required from the Natives because it was n’ot the policy of the Government to carry on land-purohasing vigorously; also that there was a personal difference between himself and Major Kemp, and that he was opposed to giving land to syndicates. Mr Ballanoe did not think that the land should be acquired for the Company to select from it, more especially as bis land policy was very different from that adopted by the Company. Therefore he did not acquire land during the five years, because he did not wish the Government to “ fall into the hands of the Company." He had refused for that reason to purchase the Horowhenua block. Therefore they had it in evidence that Mr Bryce and Mr Ballance had refused to buy land and settle the Company’s claim ; and he might remark that the Company had settled land in a way that Mr Ballaace would probably envy. It was true certain land had been thrown open for sale so that the Company might buy it, but that meant that the Company had to buy its land in the open market and pay a fair price for it. It might be said that Sir Robert Stout had recently given his opinion that the contract, when entered into, was beyond the power of the Crown. Legal opinions differed about that, and the Company had been advised the other way, But he submitted that the House would never take such a view of the matter, but would look at the justice of the question. Mr Whyte thought it would be a pity if the whole afternoon were wasted on this question, and, with a view to shorten! " discussion, he ro3e to say that * . 76 the Committee were ws ,u ' a majority of report. (No 0 —‘ U S to reconsider the !W- ; u'Callagaan asked whether Mr Whyte was in order in saying a majority of the Committee were in favour of reconsidering a report a majority had agreed to ? Mr Whyte said he had reason to believe it was so. Mr Samuel : Hoes the bon gentleman speak on behalf of the Government ? Mr Whyte (who was in the Premier’s seat) hoped the fact that he sat on one of the Cabinet benches would not take any of his dignity away. (Laughter.) Mr O’Callaghan questioned whether Mr Whyte had stated the opinion of the Committee. He expressed strong objection to the lobbying which had been going on in this matter. (Mr Izard rose to explain that he had not lobbied on it at all.) Mr O’Callaghan said he did not refer to Mr Izard at all. He strongly protested against the report being referred back.

Mr Seddon moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday, in order that other business might not be interrupted at this stage. Mr Izard hoped the debate would not be adjourned, for that was equivalent to stifling discussion on the question. He submitted that the House should not do this with such an important question. Mr Turhbuli, supported the adjournment on tho ground that he had not been able to hear the greater part of what Mr Izard said, and in the meantime members could study the question. On division the debate was adjourned till Tuesday by 46 to 24. PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT. The Premier moved that the House at its rising adjourn till 11 o'clock next day for delivery of the Public Works Statement, which it was important should be delivered this week. He hoped on Monday to be able to say what the Government proposed to do with respect to the business, and pretty nearly when the prorogation would take place. Sir John Hall suggested that the Public Works Statement should be taken as read. Mr Fulton remarked that very few members would Hear the Statement if it was read. It was then resolved that the House, at its rising, adjourn till 11 next day for delivery of the Public Works Statement only. QUESTIONS. Ministers, in answer to questions, said IS was not true that the Government Insurance Department had refused to pay the life policy of the late Percival Bear (£100) on the ground that his real name was James Percival Bear. There had been no delay at all ; the usual proofs of identity had been asked for, and that was all.—Steps would be taken to acquire documents in connection with the early history of thi3 Colony from New South Wales.—lt was true that four members of the Salvation Army were imprisoned for breaches of the by-laws at Gisborne, and the Minister of JJustice was aware from the officers of hia department that the army ljad cfonb a great; deal of-good among the lower classes. At the same time it was?a very, difficult thing for t.ho Government to interfere with borough by-laws, but it would certainly be its duty to interfere if such byplaws led in any way to persecution. —Negotiations were now going on with the Manawatu Railway Company with a view to getting some better arrangements made for the carriage of dead meat. The whole question would be carefully considered. —The Minister for Public Works could not delay altering the train service on the Foxton-Palmerston line until the railway commissioners were appointed.—Free railway passes were given to the Native football team between Christchurch and Dunedin. No passes would be given to the English football team. —The Government would be glad to put a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for mining representation at the Paris Exhibition if satisfactory arrangements, could be made.—A circular would be issued with a view to stopping the practice of dismissing children from school so as to avoid keeping open '

schools with small attendances.—lt was not intended to put any work in hand between Woodville rind the Gorge ; it was intended to have the permanent way and forniation completed at the same time.—So far as the central department could do it, the attention of Education Boards would be called to the necessity of having instruction given in schools on the history, resources, etc., of New Zealand.—A portion of the Seacliff Lunatic Asylum would have to be rebuilt in brick or wood ; the foundations had shifted an iuch since the Commission reported. The usual adjournment was taken at 5.30.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. MAIL SERVICES. The ocean mail services were further considered in committee ; the resolution before the committee being th 6 following (moved by the Premier):—That in the opinion of this House, a two-weekly mail service should be continued between New Zealand and Great Britain. It was ruled, after a short discussion, that Mr Ward’s amendment, that the San Francisco service be discontinued, had not been withdrawn. Leave was then given for its withdrawal, and Mr Ward moved his second amendment as an addition to the resolution, namely, that no subsidy should be paid to the San Francisco service. Captain Russell moved an amendment, That the consideration of the question of ocean mail services be postponed till next session, and that in the meantime the Government should make all necessary inquiries on the subject. Ho pointed out that the election of the new President of the United States might have the effect of a change in the fiscal policy of America, which would materially affect this Colony, and that the worst that could happen to us by delaying the question would be that we should be dependent for a month o,r two cm the Australasian services, Mr Fish asked leave to withdraw his amendment (which was in the direotion of affirming that a four-weekly mail service was sufficient.) Leave refused, T>- ' man ruled, however, that M- ” -** e V, , ir ‘ oline to move hi« f 1 , c °“4 Fish did. amendment, and this Mr TV* 1 _,j.r Ward complained that an effort was being made to burke fair consideration of the question. Captain Russell denied that he had any such intention. Mr Fish warmly supported Captain Russell’s amendment. Mr Kerr taunted the supporters of the San Francisco service with drawing back because they would be whipped. Sir John Hall saw no reason for delaying the matter, and considered that further postponement meant throwing away our chances. He hoped therefore that Captain Russell’s amendment would not be carried. Mr W. P. Reeves strongly opposed delay, and sarcastically mentioned the many questions the Government had already promised to consider. On division Captain Russell’s amendment was lost by 47 to 25, Mr Buchanan explained that he had voted for the amendment because he had neglected to leave the Chamber, having paired against it. Mr Barron intimated that he should vote against subsidies for either service.

Mr Fish wished to move an amendment on Mr Ward’s amendment, to the effect that no subsidy should be paid to the San Franoisco “ or any other ” mail service. Sir J ohn Hall thought it useless to expect to get a two-weekly mail service without paying subsidies. Colonel Fraser thought they would get good mail services for a proportion of the postage rates. Mr Samuel suggested that Mr Fish’s amendment should be moved in the direction of an addition, “ that payment ofeubsidies should be continued.” Mr Fish accepted that. Mr Downte Stewart deprecated these subterfuges. With respect to the San Francisco serviae, be said that by continuing it the Government were simply playing into the hands of a lot of clever Yankees. Mr Whyte said the expenses of the Union Company were £IOOO a day, and looking at that fact, he did not believe the question of a subsidy would be a very large question ’to the Company vvhioh had the Direct service. Therefore he supported Mr Fish’s amendment. Mr Ward taunted the Auckland members with inconsistency, seeing that only the night before they wanted the San Francisco service with a subsidy, while now they were opposing any subsidy. Mr Monk resented these reflections on Auckland members. Mr Ward said the edict had gone forth from Auckland that if the Auckland members could not succeed— Mr Monk said that was an insult to him. The Chairman said there was no personal reflection. Mr Ward contended that the opponents of the San Francisco service had, fought fairly but were not met fairly." Mr Hobbs regretted 'the opposition to the fixed service, and parsed the House that there was such a thing’as righteous retribuijio.n—(cheers)—and that they should meet again at Phfilippi. (Laughter.) He protested . against interested persons—shareholders—advocating a oause. Mr Withy, speaking in the discussion which ensued, asked Mr Ward to deny the statements made in the New Zealand Times, to the effect that extraordinary influences were being brought to bear on this question* and insinuating that log-rolling was being carried on, and that the continuance of the San Francisco servioe depended on the incorruptibility or otherwise of the members. Mr Ward considered those statements unfounded. No Auckland member had made any proposals to him of the kind. The question was then put that the words of Mr Ward’s amendment be added to the resolution, namely, “but that the subsidy to the San Franoisoo mail servioe should be discontinued.” Ayes, 45 : Messrs Allan, Ballanoe, Barron, Beetham, Bruce, Buchanan, Buxton, Cowan, Feldwick, Fitchett, Fulton, Grimmond, Guinness, Hall, Hodgkinson, Izard, Jones, Kerr, Lance, Larnach, Levestam, Macarthur, M. J. S. Mackenzie, J, McKenzie,

Moss, Newman, O’Callaghan, O’Conor, Parata, Pyke, R. H. J. Reeves, W. P. Reeves, Rhodes, E. Richardson, Ross, Seddon, W. J. Steward, W. D. Stewart, Tanner, Taylor, Turnbull, Valentine, Walker, Ward, Wilson. Noes, 27. —Messrs Atkinson, Fish, Fraser, Goldie, Grey, Hislop, Hobbs, Jackson, Kelly, Lawry, McGregor, Mills, Moat, Monk, Moss, Ormond, O’Rorke, Peacock, G. F. Richardson, Russell, Samuel, Seymour, Taiwhanga, R. Thompson, T. Thompson, Whyte, Withy. Pairs —For : Messrs Verrall, Fitzherbert, Loughrey, Steward, Hutchison, Perceval, Scobie Mackenzie, Duncan. Against: Messrs Brown, Carroll, Marchaut. Graham, Fergus, Ballance, Mitchelson, Cadman.

The amendment was therefore carried. Mr Samuel moved to add to Mr Ward’s amendment the words, “ together with that of the Direct service,” so that there should be no subsidy at all. Lost by 48 to 24. The resolution as amended was then agreed to as follows:—“1. That, in the opinion of this House, a two-weekly mail service should be continued between New Zealand and Groat Britain, but that che subsidy to the San Francisco mail service should be discontinued.” The Premier suggested that as the House had decided that there should be a fortnightly service, and that the subsidy to the San Francisco service should be discontinued, it would be useless to go further. He understood the decision of the House to mean that the Government should call for tenders for a Direct fortnightly service, and submit them to next session. Well, the Government already had the power to call for tenders at any time, but not to deal with them, and the House did not propose to let them deal with such tenders. Meanwhi’g he was to communioate with C»»*' a^a a ‘n d other colonies. He would t-^ e thafc direc . tion, and moved now f> at the resolut ion be reported He ld in the mea ntime unhi*-- 6 all P oss ikl 0 information on the su for the House. Mr Ward thought they should fix the maximum amount to be paid, and moved that the maximum amount to be paid for the European mall service should be £25,000. At the suggestion of the Premier, who pointed out that the present sorvice would continue for 18 months, Mr Ward withdrew this motion. Mr O’Callaghan complained that he had risen six times to speak, and had not caught the Chairman’s eye. Was it not in accordance with the etiquette of debate that a member who had failed to catch the Chairman’s eye should be called on next time. The Chairman said he generally on such occasions put the member’s name down, and then called on him next. He put the hon member’s name down, but fonnd him absent when he wished to call on him.

Mr O’Callaghan intimated that if it happened again he should get his friends to move that he be heard.

Dr Newman suggested that the Chairman should get a revolving chair. Mr Ward moved hi 3 third resolution, namely, that tenders be called for a fortnightly Direct service on the basis of payment by weight, the aggregate cost not to exceed a year, the time to be4odays from, aud 43 days to Now Zealand, the term of contract not to exceed five years. He moved this, he said* because he thought he should do so in fairness to those who had supported him. The Premier hoped this would not be pressed, as it would give no further results. He suggested that the Committee should divide on the question to report the resolution. After further discussion Mr Ward asked leave to withdraw his motion. The resolution was then reported to the House and agreed to. DISTRICT railways purchasing bill. This Bill was considered in committee and reported. INTERPRETATION BILL. This Bill, having been agreed to in committee, was read a third time and passed. CORONERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee, reported, and read a third time and passed. The House rose at 1.30.