HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 850, 15 June 1888, Page 29

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THURSDAY, JUNE 7. The House met at 2.30. THE MIDLAND RAILWAY.

The Premier, in answer to a question from Mr Macarthur, said the Government did not propose to ask the House to discuss what was called the new concession to the Midland Railway Company. There had not been any concession. Neither did the Government propose to give special facilities to a private member to make a motion on tha subject, since opportunities had already been, given for a discussion of tho subject. CUSTOMS AND EXCISE DOTIES BILL. Mr Goldie, resuming the debate on the second reading, '.said lie had come there pledged to drastic retrenchment, and although he gave the Government credit for doing a great deal in this matter, he considered more could have been done. Looking through the Estimates he believed the country could stand a great deal more retrenchment, though it might be objected to in Wellington. £40,000 odd was spent in pensions and allowances last --year, and he failed to see why tbe Government should pay such large compensation when other employes had to depend oa their own savings. After avowing himself in favor of a land and incometax, he went on to say that he recognised that the tariff would, being Protective, assist to prevent people leaving the Colony. Ha disapproved tho tea tax for local subsidies, contending that it would be better to increase publicans’ license fees in aid of subsidies. With respect to education, he was not in favor of raising the school ago until every possible retrenchment had been effected. He objected also to the abolition of the boards, and iu the course of a defence of those bodies pointed out that it cost the Government £7 3s 7d per head to maintain Native schools,' while the boards only received £3 los per head. He pointed out the want o.E reform iu the management of education, so far as the Government were concerned, and suggested a classification of teachers. Mr Tanner was one of those who confes>ed disappointment at the tariff the Government had brought down. Admittiug that more revenue was required, ho thought they should cast about for somo cheaper mode of governing the ..Colony. He thought, too, that the expenditure could be reduced to half a million ; and believed that the solution of the difficulty lay in an extended form of local governmont. It instead of property-tax local government was extended so as to tako in the work of education, that work would bo carried out in a much better and cheaper way. Two systems of rating, he argued, were sufficient, and under his proposal the people requiiing

♦ihfe money woul d raiso it witkont'3epaV ttn’eVital •expense. He should litre to see the revenue Wusedon realand personal property - on capital in every form. That, he beneved, would be a cheaper and better forth than a land and income-tax. With respect to the tariff, it was too heavy ola the necessaries of life and not heavy enough on silks, spirits, and other articles tb&fc were not necessary. Cigars, tobacco, racehorses, and totalisators could all have been Bubjeot to taxation. He held that the property.tax exemption should have been reduced to £240.

Mr Allen gave the Government great orodit for what they had done in reducing expenditure. He agreed with them, too, in charging against consolidated revenue charges which had hitherto been phid Out of > loan. ' But there came in the question whether or not the granting of subsidies to local bodies was a good one, and on that point he would only say that he considered the practice a vioious one, which did harm to the people it was intended to benefit. He ©azn« into the House, however, opposed to all frirther taxation unless it was shown to bo necessary, and he had estimated that at leasb"'£3oo,ooo could be saved. He believed now that more could be saved. He defended his vote for the Loan Bi 1 of last seßßion, and accused the Opposition bf insincerity when they moved to reduce the loan by £500,000 last year. With respect to the Financial Statement, he considered certain parts of it pointed to a worse state of things than was now known. It was stated that at a future date the Treasurer might want to impose a sugar duty ; and He was of opinion that things were so bad that they would soon be asked to impose that tax. Under these circumstances the House should consider whether further reductions could not be made. Such reductions were inevitable, and the sooner they faced tho position the better. The general burden of the new taxation would fall on tho poorer classes, and he asked whether that was right, looking at the depressed condition of the country. He pointed out that mining and agricultural machinery was very largely taxed, and asked whether it was not a farce then to say that the tariff was devised to assist local industries. Dealing with the question of Protection and Freetrade Mr Allen deuied that either the prosperity or the ruin of a country could be affected by,a tariff. After referring to the low wages and misery which prevailed in Victoria, he asked whether the House wanted the same state of things here. He referred to the meeting recently held in Dunedin, ostensibly to discuss the exodus from the country, and said that ho and Messrs Scobie Mackenzie and Barron, who were invited to go there, could not get a hearing, because Mr Fish s myrmidons packed the meeting. In conclusion, Mr Allen urged the importance of ossisting the mining and agricultural Industries- ... , Mr Fish, replying to Mr Allens arguments, said he thought, when that gentleman commenced, that he was going to say, Let us pray ! What party did the hon gentleman belong to ? _ . , Mr Scobie Mackenzie : The Freetrade party. Mr Fish : And 1 hope be will remain there with his illustrious compeers. After the tariff was carried, as it would be (cries of “No,” and cheers)—would they not fiud the hon gentleman following the Government again? Mr Fish want on to • deny that the Opposition were insincere last year when they tried to reduce the loan. He severely censured Mr Scobie Mackenzie and Mr Barron, and said he should see political existence when Mr Mackenzies name was politically dead. (Cheers and laughter.) He wend at great length into the differences between himself and Mr Mackenzie, Mr Barron, and'Mr Allcd, and described humorously what took place at the -..meeting to which Mr Allon had refeirod, &fid many incidents in connection, there with. Mr Mackenzie met him in Dunedin and said “ By George, I’ve a good mind to address a meeting in Dunedin, Fish whereupon Mr Fish (having, he said, a feeling of friendship for the member for Mount Ida) advised him not to. Later on Mr Mackenzie said he would address a - meeting, with tho air of one who felt that with his eloquence he could stem the torrent of their minds—(laughter) —and set them right. Well, the hon gentle man came, and saw, but didn t conquer. Mr Mackenzie would have got a hearing had he not started by calling the audience * my friends.” Mr Fish referred to Mr Allen as a gentleman who had got into Parlianieat through an accident, and “by the scourge of Providence and was the usual adjournment was taken at 5,30.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Mr Fish, resuming, continued hi 3 references to Mr Barron, Mr Mackenzie, and Mr Allen. Leaving that-subject he discus-ed questions of Freetrade and Protection, and a statement to the effect that New Zealand could not for years produce fruit enough tor the jam industry being questioned by Mr Levostam, Mr Fish said the member for Nelson could never riee above that Bmall locality in which he lived, and which he dignified by bis presence. (Laughter.) He approved the Government’s financial proposals generally, but thought amendments could be made in the tariff. He expressed approval of a tea tax for local subsidies, but agreed with the proposal to raise the school age. He _ expressed an oninion that the time had arrived when parties should be formed on the lines of Protection and Freetrade, and said that the Government would not feel one tinge of -egret at the loss of the Barrons, the Mac. kenzies, and the Menteaths, but they would feel the loss of gentlemen like Messrs Fulton Beetham, Bruce, Macarthur, and Wilson! .Referring next to Mr Menteath, Mr Fish amused the House by mimicking the attitude of the member for Te Aro, and accused him of being one of those who could only look at politics from a theoretical nointof view. Mr Fish concluded a speech occupying over two hours in delivery by announcing that he would support the Government’s policy ; and he asserted, on behalf of tho Protectionist members, that their gratitude would go beyond mere. lip salve. (C MrScoßiE Mackenzie said Mr Fish had heaped vials of political vilification on his head, and it was to the hon member a per-

sonal allusions, and not to his arguments on abstract questions of politics, that he now rose to reply. After remarking that it had never been asserted that this Wab a Freetrade country, but that with already large duties they had great depression, Mr Mackenzie proceeded to reply to Mr Fish’s personal allusions to Mr Allen and Mr Barron. The “ accident ” by which Mr Allen get elected for Dunedin East Was this : That on the day of the election Mr Fish announced that “ he was going down on his knees to pray to God that Sir Robert StoUt might be returned add tho natural consequence was that Sir Robert Stout was not returned. ((Cheers and laughter.) Mr Fish rose to an exp’anation. The words were used after the election. Mr Mackenzie remarked that it appeared to him an act of supererogation to pray for the election of a mhn after the election w s over, (LaUghter.) Mr Fish said tho words were that “he wished to God Sir Robert had been returned.”

Mr Mackenzie remarked that the prayers of the righteous availed much no doubt, but there were occasions when things were reversed. (Laughter.) Ho invited the House to look at the hon gentleman as lie sat there looking the model of consistency. Why he contested an eleotion as a Freetrader in 1 SSI; he was a Freetrader then because Freetrade was popular, and when Protection became the cry he was a Protectionist. On the Bible in schools question the hon gentleman was an exclusionist when exclusion was popular ; and when there was an outcry for the Bible in schools he laid a politically polluted hand on the sacred book, and said he was in favor of it. He, with many others of a like kidney, went in the attitude of the serpent of old, fawning and crying—living libels upon political honesty—and Mr Fish had spoken of Mr Alienas a political failure, but had the hon geutleman himself been a political success after years of experience ? At aDyrate no one could ever say of Mr-Allen that he was a moral failure ! However, he would not go further into personal questions; he had started with the idea of touching political pitch, but he thought with Tennyson—

Surely after all The noolest answer unto such Is perfect silence, when they brawl.

He warned the hon member, however, agaiust making personal attacks in future. (Hon members : Withdraw.) Mr Fish : Oh let kirn alone, he’s only showing his character. K Mr Mackenzie, continuing, explained why he had withdrawn his allegiance ,from the previous ' Government. Referring to tho Budget, he said he did not agree with those who said the Freetrade cause was lost; they had got to see the tariff in committee yet. The Protectionists were not a happy family. Wherever two or three of them werd' gathered, there was a spirit—(laughter) —that'did them no good. He expressed an opinion that the introduction of tho tariff was a question of expediency, and held that a more oppressive measure could not have been brought in. They might assume that it was a Protective tariff. After speaking for a little while on the question of Protection and Freetrade, Mr Mackenzie said tho logical outcome of what the Government had now done was that the Cabinet should be reconstructed so that parties might be fairly defined, and proper issues fought. It was forgotten, he said, that we wanted to get foreign produce cheap in the country in times of depression. He should always be a consistent Freetrader, and though they were in a minority now, they cared little for that, believing that they were arguing for. that which was right. (Cheers.) The Minister of Education said Mr Mackenzie was one of those sweet singers who hail sung in vain, and had suDg very nearly every political tune in his time. The party to which tho hou gentleman now belonged were called “ tho wobblers,” after a careful search for a suitable name; and the hon member himself, like tho mania the ballood, was “ not in it.” AllndiDg to Mr Men. teath, Mr Fisher said he had been slipping and sliding about always, and would probably continue to do so until he “ slipped down the slippery slopes of obscurity into the ■darksome ab3 : sa of absolute nothings.’ (Laughter ) He (Mr Fisher) expressed his intention of saving nothing in answer to Mr Menteath until he had the opportunity of submitting it to the arbitration of the citizens of Wellington to judge of his and the hon member’s honesty, and ho would follow him till then. He assured the House that he had ceased to have any respect for Mr Menteath and Mr Mackenzie (laughter), and the former had given him but a poor requital for assisting to get him returned. (Oh!) With respect to educaiio-J, the Minister claimed that the Government had dealt with, it boldly. They were of opinion that no alteration should be made thi3 year, but that the Act should be amended by a comprehensive measure next session. He agreed that the constituencies shonld be consulted on these questions, and that wao one reason why the Government had not brought in a Bill this session. He claimed that the present position was not at all analogous to that of 1885, when the Government brought down an amended tariff. The previous Government increased the cost of government £400,000, but the member for Thorndon had not been fair enough to point that out and acknowledge that the present Government had accomplished an almost herculean task in reducing expenditure. Why, when the late Government said they could reduce expenditure by £IOO,OOO it was considered a remarkable undertaking; yet here were actual reductions, not promises, to the extent of £233,000. No Ministry ever had a more difficult work than the present Government, and he claimed that they had done all that mortal man could do. Ho put it to the Freetraders how it was possible to apply Freetrade to a country which was nearly £40,000,000 in debt, and had to provide £2,000,000 for interest every year ? He believed Freetrade, as applied to civilised countries, did not exist, though it might be possible in New Guinea, Sarawak and the islands of the Arafura Sea. Next he would ask them what they said about the benefits of money being circulated in the country for the era ployment of industry ? He compared the Government’s tariff with that introduced by the late Govemumnt, and claimed that the

present one was not devised aS the other \Va?j bo as to beat heavily on the working classes. Why, oh shirtings, hollands, cottons and other sftoh articles used by working classes, the late Government proposed to put £102,000! Yet Mr Menteath had the temerity to say that he (Vlr Fishet) had changed his principles because he had Opposed that tariff. Mr MteNTEATH : Hear, hear. I Shall say ib again. . The Minister for Education said he would take care tho hon gentleman had opportunity. Mr Menteath : And so will I. The Minister for Education i If the hon gentleman ever dares to present himself before a Wellington audience again, I’ll take care that he has greater opposition than he bas ever had before, iCries of “booh ! ) Mr W. p. Reeves : United Wellington ! (Laughter.) The Minister of Education, continuing, expressed himself hopeful fur the future of the Colony, and said he believed that after the present year the whole condition of things would be changed. If it was possible for a colony like South Australia to rise from such a depressed condition, it was possible for New Zeainud. The Government bad no reason to feel disappointed or disheartened ; they had justified their pledges to the House, and had no fear of the result of the discussion. (Cheers.) Mr Walker commented upon the elegance of Mr Fisher’s expressions, and accused tho Minister of not haviug made such a Clear statement on the subject of education as the House had a right to expect. Mr Walker contended that the agricultural population benefited largely by Protection, and he denied that tho Opposition were acting in insincerity. They could do no more, he argued, than support proposals with which they agreed. He regretted that Protectiou was not adopted when tho late Government proposed it, for it would probably have prevented many people from leaving the Colony. He expressed a hope that the Government would endeavor, if possible, to make the railways more profitable than they were. It was bis opinion that the management of the railways, so far as the officers wore concerned, was all that could be desired, and that the fault was in the fact that they were managed from Wellington. Referring in conclusion to the Premier, he said that gentleman must not forget that he had in his timo been a spondthrift. The Opposition considered he bad sown his wild oats, and that ho would live a virtudus old age. (Cheers.) . ... Mr Scobie Mackenzie, referring to the passage between himself and Mr Fisb, said ho bad taken the opinion of several older members, and found they considered, as be did himself, that he had-gone too far. Anything ho said which was outside the bounds of. .Parliamentary decorum, or for any allusion other than of a distinctly political nature, he withdrew. He had no desire to wound any member of the House, and if he bad wounded Mr Fish except politically, he regretted it. (Hear, hear.) Mr Duncan moved the adjournment of the debate till next day.— Carried. CHINESE IMMIGRANTS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was received from the Council as amended, and consideration of the amendments set down for next day. Tho House rose at midnight.

FRIDAY, JUNE 8. The House met at 2.30. ■ MIDLAND RAILWAY.

Mr Macarthur moved the adjournment of the House in order that consideration might be given to the new concessions proposed to be given to the Midland Railway Company. Ho pointed out that tho Company proposed, by adopting tho Abt system of making railways over hills instead of by tunnels, to save lrom £250,000 to £400,000, and claimed that tho Colony should get the benefit of that saving by reduction of the. land grant. Concession after concession bad. been granted to the Government, and there was ground for doubt whether tho Company did not wish toget out of the contract altogether by eventually putting the Government into a fix. [f he (Mr Macarthur) did not obtain an expression of opinion from the Government he should, in replying, give notice to move for a committee to inquire into the matter. Sir George Grey seconded the motion. Mr Allen complained that alterations were being made in the contract which the House was not asked to consider. Dr Hodgkinson, as a member of the Committee which sat on this question last session considered that all the concessions that should be given were given, then. I-Ie thought tho Company were “trying it on ” now, and that the time had come when the Ministry should put its foot, down. - . .. Mr Seymour thought the question was. purely an engineering one, which should bedecided by experts. __ . Mr Wilson remarked that Mr Napier Dell, had recommended to the Royal Commission which reported on this railway, that meana should bo adopted of taking the line over instead of through the hill in question. The Premier said tho matter was very plain. The Company alleged that late discoveries would enable them to take the railway over the hill at less cost, and asked for provision in the contract that, if they comd satisfy the Government that this could be done, the Government shonld consider it. That was all ; there were no further concessions asked or given. Ho submitted that it would bo a dog in the manger policy for the Government to refuse the Company permission to make the line more cheaply if posA discussion ensued, and Mr Macarthur, replying, gave notice to move.foi a committee on Wednesday-. At the evening sitting the 1 remier said he was afraid there would be difficulties if they waited till Wednesday to set up the Committee, and he would therefore ask leave to move that a committee be appointed to consider the proposed proviso to the contract, to coEsist of Messrs Allen, Fulton, Sevmour, Walker, . Ballance, E. Richardson, Samuel, Seddon, and the mover. Inis was agreed to. after a short discussion. CUSTOMS AND 2-XCIS32 BILL. * Mr Duncan, resuming the debate on the second reading, considered that the taxation

proposed would have &n injurious effect on the people. He denied that all possible retrenchment bad been effected, and said the proposed tariff would injure people in country districts. He contended that the Colony could, meet its engagements without a tariff of this kind, which would, be hoped, be rejected oh its second reading. Mr JoNfiS Supported the financial proposals generally, but Would endeavor to get the tariff amended in committee. Major Jackson gave the Government Oredit for re-establishing the credit of the Colony, but thought that in the matter of taxation they had begun at the end ; it would have been better to first make all possible reductions. In education, (tit instanee, ho thought that reductions could have been effected, and that all over primary education should bo paid for. Mr Kerr held that the only source from which they could obtain mopey was the Customs, unless they put it on land, which would be very inadvisable in the preseut depressed condition of the farmers. He considered however, that thire was a good deal of room for improvement in the details of the tariff proposed. t _ ... Tile usual adjournment was taken at b.oU.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Mr Kerr, continuing his remarks on the Customs Duties Bill, maintained that higher education should be paid for, and questioned the value of such education in respect to its effect on the young people of the Colony. He strongly protested against the expenditure on trunk roads. Mr Withy said that as one who had been for years concerned in manufactures in England, he failed to see how a young country wanted Protection any more than an old one. With respect to the Government’s financial policy, he agreed that the deficit should be met out of taxation instead out of loan, and he agreed also on the retrenchment to be effected by the abolition of certain departments of the public service. He liked the tea duty because he thought it was one that the people would want to get removed as soon as possible; and he liked the primage duty as only of a temporary, nature. Generally speaking, he agreed with the tariff so far as it was used for revenueraising purposes only. He disapproved the abolition of Education Boards, unless some efficient method of local control was substituted ; and he thought; free education should be given later and end earlier. He could not see that the Premier bad endeavored to please the Freetraders, as ho had promised he would endeavor . to please both parties last session. Thereforehe had been left by-the Government —he hadnotleftthem; but he was in this dilemma, that he had nothing to propose which would be better. (The Premier : Hear, hear.) He did not think himself that either Freetrade or Protection would restore prosperity; he did not think it was a case for extremes. Going on to speak of Protection, Mr Withy said it had never been considered that most of the people who were leaving the Colony were not of a class who would be kept here by a Protective tariff. Already this country was largely protected, and yet people left it. He argued that the country must be dealt with as a large business would be ; they must take care that they did not shackle industry or discourage- thrift. They must make it easy to be thrifty ; encourage technical schools ; and be willing to exchange their productions with those of other countries and not make our ports co3lly. (Cheers.) Mr Dow.nie Stewart thought Mr Withy was to be congratulated on the dispassionate manner in which he had argued tho question lrom his point oE view. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the Bill, Mr Stewart supported it, but regretted that the Government had not brought down a more thoroughly Protec. tioniat tariff. He criticised Mr Withy’s speech at some length, and then went bn to say that the Statement had a great deal of the old ring about it—an apology for the past and promise of hope for the future. (Hear, hear.) Ho expressed gratification at the stoppage of borrowed money; and remarked that borrowed money had in the past generally been spent on unreproductive works. A more disgracefully governed Colony never existed ; we had everything in abundance, and only man was vile. (Laughter.) He dwelt upon the hardship infliotod upon men who were discharged from the public service with a view to retrenchment, and contended that large salaries were not reduced as much as.they should have been. He iutimated his intention of supporting the second readiug of the Bill. Mr T. Mackenzie considered the Govern, ment were entitled to great credit for the manner in which they had carried out retrenchment, but thought there were many services on which further reductions could be made. He considered that increased taxation to the extent; of about £IOO,OOO, should be granted to the Government, who had, however, asked too much, he thought. Therefore he should voto against the second reading of the Bill. He took exception to the action of Mr Fisher m “slanging ” those gentlemen who differed from him, and. oalling them “ wobblers.” (The Premier interjected that the remark was only applied to Mr Menteath and Mr Scobie Mackenzie, and several other members maintained that the remark was generally applied.) Mr Mackenzie went,on to say that in any case such language was highly improper from a Minister of the Crown. . m . Mr Peacock thought the Treasurer was to be congratulated on his clever Statement, and he regretted that the country could not be equally congratulated on the condition of its finances. He thought it was a pity the House had not given the Government greater power in effecting retrenchment, by raising the school age. He agreed with the proposal to fund the deficit, and was not prepared to say that no further retrenchment was necessary. He thought free education might stop at the fourth standard, and that beyond that a small fee should be paid. With respect to the tariff, though he was of opinion that this country, blessed as it was with magnificent harbors, should become an important commercial Colony under Freetrade, yet he recognised that in all young countries industries needed a little en. couragement, and revenue must also be raised. At the same time he did not think they were justified in going 60 far into Pro-

tection aB was now proposed. Moreover, it; would go further than web suggested. For this reason he could not support the tariff. Mr M 'Gregor moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday. Mr SeddoN protested against these continued adjournments. V' - The Premier said Ministers began their work at 9 in the morning, and had so much work on their hands that they hardly bad time to go to lunch ; and he himself was not going to make a practice of going into the small hours of the morning, seeing that the House had refused to alter the procedure. Mr Levestam supported the adjournment on the ground that this was a debate that could not be finished this week, and that it was advisable that every opportunity should be given for full discussion. Mr Boss suggested that they would waste less time if members did nob indulge in so much recrimination. The motion WftS carried, and the House rose at 11.35.

TUESDAY, JUNE 12. The House met at 2.30. MIDLAND RAILWAY CONTRACT. Mr Samoel brought up the report of the Committee on the proposed proviso to the Midland Railway contract, and moved that it lie on the table. [The report recommended that the proviso be adopted, with an alteration to the effect that before tho incline line is allowed the Government shall be satisfied that the line when made will be suitable for mineral arid other heavy traffic.] Sir George Grey moved that the debate be adjourned until it was decided Whether the Committee bad been lawfully appointed (he having given ' no” ice to move that the Speaker had exceeded bis powers in allowing the debate on ; the Customs Duties Bill to be interrupted on Friday evening for a motion appointing the committee to be moved, such debate not haviug been adjourned, or the Standing Orders suspended. He moved the adjournment of the debate till Friday. ; . : The Premier strongly' opposed delay till Friday in such an important matter, but expressed his willingness to let Sir George Grey’s motion of censure on the Speaker come on at once. (Hear, hear.) Dr Hodgkinson supported the motiori for adjournment, remarking that the Govern, ment appeared willing to grant any concessions asked for.

Sir George Grey replied that there had been undue haste on the part of the Committee. He refused to take an adjournment till that evening, holding that members should have due notice of his motion. Mr Allen said this decision waa arrived at by the Committee by the casting vote of the Chairman. (Han members ; Deliberative vote.) Mr-Allen said it was the casting vote. He maintained that if the Company were to save £400,000 by this concession the Colony should make a proportionate saving in the land grant. Moreover, the question of the increasedycost of traffic over the hill was to be considered. . V- r , ■ Mr Fulton said that if , the Committee’s report was adopted the House would be virtually giving fresh concessions by allowing the Agent-General to grant this concession. The engineering question was the only one that remained to be decided.

Mr Samuel said the motion before the House was only that the report lie on the table. (Mr Fulton explained that he had thought the motion waa that the report be adopted.) Mr Samuel pointed out that the chairman of a committee only had one vote. The question was, he said, whether the Colony should take up Ihe position of the dog in the manger by refusing to allow the Company to make its railway economically. It would appear that the cost of the railway was to be over £2,500,000, and it did not seem fair to him to reduce the land grant, which was only given in respect of that amount. The Minister for Public Works moved theadjournment of the debate till 7.30 that evening. Mr Macarthur asked how it was that the Chairman had not moved the adoption of the report as directed by the Committee. Mr Samuel held that.he was only authorised to bring the report up. The word “ Friday” was, after some dis. cussion, struck out on the voices. Mr Moss moved that the-works “ row ” be inserted instead of, 7-30 that evening. The debate was adjourned till. 7.30 that evening. leave of absence. Leave was given to Mr Graham for one week on urgent private.business. customs duties and, excise rill. Mr Beetham asked whether the Premier would lay before tho House a more detailed statement of the amounts expected to bo re. ceived from the new tariff. The Premier said it would be difficult to do that, for there was always a large amount of uncertainty. He wouid refer the hon gentleman, however, to th© import and export returns. The adjourned debate on the second rending ot the Bill was then called on, and a division taken at once. Ayes, 53.—Messrs Atkinson, Ballance, Blake, Buxton, Cadman, Dodson, .Feldwick, ' Fergus, Fisher, Fisb, Fitchett, Fitzherbert, Fraser, Goldie, Grey, Guinness, Hislop, Hobbs, Hodgkinson, Hutchison, Jackson, Jones, Kerr, Lance, Larnach, Lawry, Levestarn, Lougmey, McGregor, Mitcbelson, Moat, Monk, Moss, O’Callaghan, O’Conor, Perceval, Pyke, R. H. J. Reeves, W. P. Reeves, E. Richardson, G. F. Richardson, Samuel, Seddon,' Seymour, W. J. Steward, W, D. Stewart, Tanner, Taylor, R. Thompson, T. Thompson, Turnbull, Walker, Ward.

Noes, 29. —Messrs Allen, Anderson, Bar* ron, Beetham, Bruce, Buchanan, Carroll, Cowan, Duncan, Fulton, Grimmond, Hamlin, Izard, Macarthur, M. J. S. Mackenzie, T. Mackenzie, Merchant, Millß, Newman, Ormond, Parata, Peacock, Rhodes, Ross, Smith, Taipua, Taiwhanga, M’ilsoD, Withy. Pairs.—For: Hall and Barron. Against: Whyte and Menteath. Majority in favor of second reading, 24. The Premier moved that the Bill be committed forthwith.

Mr Beetham objected, and said he had intended to move an amendment to the motion for committal, That, in the present position of the Colony, it was inadvisable to

go into committee on the Bill until tlio Government bud had an opportunity of considering whether further reductions could iifft tits made in public expenditure. Me <?aa; horFever; drfitef Unprepared, seeing that IMf b6efi fotheo So MrJPfi^dbcKintimated thath'esfiouMoffer AV factious opposition seeing that the SoCso had: af&rinedT the , principle of the Bill by passing.the second reading.. t lifr Ltbv.estam .remarked tbap he was surSrisod, and had intended „ fP^ a £i daughter.). Well, members, might laugh, bnt he had, the best of the laugh,, for he should,,deliver his speech row. lhe hon gentlemaq.jvas .proceeding to do this when he was ruled out of prder, : . Mr Mills sympathised witjh Mr Levestam, and said he himself should take an opportunity of giving expression to hlOpiniona. . in Colonel Fraser remarked thai. ho tended to apeak) bnt refrained Wdon ha flaw the division imminent, considering that a division Would be better for the country than his speech would bo, or than by tho lot of twaddle being talked on the Bill, , lutVAkb said Mi- McGregbt (who hid tke flgA df te3urriiug the debate) liad ‘ ptit Him on by telling hini that “lie iidfe going to make a long sp'eeoh.’ , (Ladglitefi) Mr Samuel pointed out that it was not vpry complimentary df membort to .stay out e | thb, (jKamtjer. oecausp, they understood Mr McGregor was going , to.apetvk.• (daughter.) Mr MacartHUß commented cri thefagt that not. a singlo member of the Govorfimens had stood up to defend its policy (cheers) —a Ministry put into office by the Freetraders. (The Premier ! Oh 1) Mr Maoarthur, continuing, said if it had not been for the Freetrader’s support' the Premier would not have gone into office—could not have formed a Cabinet. The hon mem* ber was at this juncture ruled out of order. Mr Buchanan opposed the committal of the Bill forthwith. .Mr BiiAKE remarked that Wheif he met Mr McGregor iu the Idbby and askfid him what lie Was going to do; and as that'gentleman thttt One eye and pointed over his shoulder with his thumb, he gathered that some one Was going to be sold. (Laughter.) Mr Bruce thought the Premier should have had some consideration for the Freefctadb BectiOn, who, though they had now left hith, had followed him for years through good ahd bvil rephte. He. added, that Mr McGregOr had toid hirii he did not intend tb speak. Mr Scobie Mackenzie raised a point of order, that two stages of a Bill could not be taken in one day. - 1 The Speaker said it was allowable when the’ Premier stated that it was an urgent measure.

Mr Mackenzie asked whether they Were ttt take the Premieres decision., He protested agaihat this being regarded as a matter of Urgency When the Premier was willing to interrupt the debate that hight for the Midland Railway discussion. Mr Rv Reeves-, Mr Turhbull> Mr Fish, Und others Urged the Government td commit the Bill with all possible expedition. Mr Obmond-, Bpeaking in the debate which ensued, said he saw no reason for delay, though he was opposed' to the Bill and Bhould do his best to amend it in committee. • . .. Mr Scobie Mackenzie mdved that the Bill be committed on Friday, biit subsequently withdrew his amendment. The Premier, in answer to Mr Seddon, said the Government would propose to exempt machinery on the way to the Colony from taxation.

The motion for immediate committal of the Bill was carried on the voices.

The Premier expressed astonishment at the action of certain members in wishing to gut off the committal, 1 seeing that they ad been saturated with the question for the past few days. If he saw any advantage to be gained by delay he would agree to it, but ho Baw none. Ho urged the House to go into committee at onoe, and there properly consider the tariff; and he pointed out that it was no use at all to talk upon abstract questions. There was absolute necessity for revenue, and the Freetraders should, if they objected to the tariff, say how they would raise the money. Moreover, the House had refused, by rejecting Mr Ormond’s -j re * solutions, to reduce the cost of services. He WOald, in committee, be glad to receive Uny suggestion, and to have the tariff fairly considered ; but the Government would not allow the tariff to be torn to pieces,either by one sido or the other. He moved that the Speaker leave the chair, in order that the House might go into committee, Mr J. B. Whyte said Mr Ormond’s resolutions had not been put before the House in a proper way, for they were offered as a ■whole. He complained that thePrernior had not given the Honse an exhaustive speech, as they had a right to expect. Mr Levestam delivered the speech he had intended to make on the motion for second reading, and was still speaking when the 5.30 adjournment was taken.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. MIDLAND RAILWAY CONTRACT.

Thin debate was resumed, and the question whather Sir George Grey’s motion of censure should come on was discussed. After a short debate the motion that the report of the Committee lie on the table was carried.

CUSTOMS DUTIES AND EXCISE BILL. Mr Levebtasi, resuming the debate on the motion that the Speaker leavo the chair, referred to Mr Scobie Mackenzie as one who claimed to be able to sway the masses. A meeting in favor of Protection was held in VN ellington about t wq'" years ago, at wlnen the hon member w?s present and took copious noies. He did nos speak, however, though he afterward boasted that if he had spoken lie could have ebang'-d the opi ions of the meeting. Mr Levestam went on to speak in favor of Protection. He maintained tbat the Freetraders had not made out a case, and said he should support the tariff as a whole, though he wished to see the atra-jy. hatting industry protected. "Mr Ward expressed gratification with the tariff and other financial proposals of the Government. He disagreed with those who advocated an extension of tho property-tax, and maintained that that tax had done more harm to the Colony than anything else. He believed the day was not far dia • fant when it would be done away with. lie

contended that frhiiro wivr mb'other way of making up the amount Tfe'c/uirod GVafi'through the Customs, and deniod that tne tariff would have a bad effect on farmers. He approved the proposal to repeal the Crown and Native Lands Rating Aot. (“ Oh ! and hear, hear.) With respeot to education, He said tliefe were numbers of people in the Colony w hd sent fchoir children to tho high Schools in the first place, Instead of the primary s'ohOols In! such cirOomatanoca he thought it Would be ah well to irnlKd a-ohargo for hi'gh’er odn'cafliqn; TiVuchihg the ttfa duty He paid that tea was, finder ordinary circu'ihstances, id be ffehV this year, and with a tax it would of p'ctlrsa b'e heavier? and he thought , the. duty should do nirt ad valorem one. He strongly advocated the abolition of mail subsidies, holding that New Zealand's position was now suoh ChciS her mail servioes need not be subsi. dised : no lih'S of steamers could afford to overlook her. pfe considered, also, that we Yiaf'ug too much for sea'fib.-Wd mails. Ho Sifoaeated that a g°°d deal could be CifihCf S tKay oireti'enchment by doing away with Official Assignee offices, and: castmg frheif duties on to Registrar of the Supreme Cotirt, He objected to the reduction iu the Volunteer voiri Bo thought it would hfisted thti taking oW of the vffau3 °, cotiafiy hofps; which wchild be « Very good thing' HefloggCsted mt Volunteers were over-officered, and fuftflCced the district of Taranaki. Speakfiig Kptin railway matters, he expressed ah oteaion. that tho rates might be reducea sii'H fl View . .to assisting persons engaged in agricultural pursuits with much advantage to the Colony. In con£msion, Mr Ward expressed a hope that the measures now before the House would have the effect of assisting the Colony out of the present depression. (Cheers-) Mr Bruce oommeuted upon the present position of parties, and cited It as a satire on government by party. Ho gave the Government Credit for the policy of retrenchment aifd edtjnomy whioh they had initiated a policy, hb tiaidj which would have to be folldwed oiit .by liny Ministry which was in office. Explaining his position,'Mr Bruce pointed out that the Premier took office with a promise of support until he could bring down his policy. That policy having , been brought down, it was not acceptable to many member! who had hitherto supported the Government, and there the matter ended. He doiild ntit see that there had been any breach of agreeifieiili on Slthef Side) nor was there any need of recrimination. (Hear, hear.) He was opposed to subsidies to local bodies, holding that it was better for districts to tax themselves for works, as was done in Rangitikel under the Government Loans to Local Bodies Act. With teferenbe to education, he was in favor of raising th§ Sdhdol ago to si* years. An hon member had spoken of the property-td* £ts a tax upon industry; biit what ofi biirth iVas any tax levied upon biit oa industry; The abolition of the property-tax and the substitution of a land and income-tax he considered would Be i most injurious thing, and a graduated ptopetty-taX fie regarded as infamous and calculated to keep capital away from the Colony, and perhaps lead to confiscation. He strongly condemned the defence expenditure, which had been spent, he said, in insuring against a risk whioh was very remote. He ridiculed the idea that Russia would Send vessels out here,- and said that if she was wise in her generation she wdffld keep all her ships under the shadow of her forts, for there only would they be safe. If there was any need for defence preparations at all, it was in the way of a coastal reserve. Going on to deal with the financial proposals, Mr Bruce warned the House that in a few years they would be called upon to increase these duties. The cause of depression was, he maintained, that we had borrowed largely and squandered and misappropriated most of the money, and in addition the prices of our produce had gone down. Unemployed had arisen in large numbers, and now it was proposed to reduce the unemployed by still further taxing the producer. (“No, 1 ’ and hear, hear.) And hdw, he asked, - was Protection to benefit the working man? He denied that it would, or that it would raise their wages. Protection he condemned as an impoverishing policy, which would have a very bad effect on tho poorer classes. He instanoed the proposed coal duty, which, he said, wonld only benefit the manufacturers—the proprietors of the collieries, who would have a monopoly. For would anyone argue that these gentlemen wouid divide the profits with their employes? He replied at length to the arguments of Protectionist speakers, remarking, with reference to an insinuation that Mr Withy’s was an autobiographical speech, that the House ought to ho proud of a gentleman who could deliver such a speech—a speech that would be creditable to any Legislature. (Hear, hear.) He expressed astonishment at the members of the Government cheering when Mr W. P. Reoves suggested that the Freetraders wore disgusted because they were not in office. He denied that he had ever intrigued in any way for office, and said it was unfair of tee Government to cheer a statement of that kind. (Hear, hear.) He assured tho House that the Freetrade party was not to be sneered out of existence ; they would continue te grow, he hoped, till at length a Freetrade Government would be seen on the Treasury benches. (Mr Fish: You won’t live to see it.) At this epoch in the history of the coun. try he warned the Proteotiouists that tae'.rs would ba the blame if an impoverishing policy was adopted. Finally, Mr Bruce said ho parted from the Miuistry rather m sorrow than in anger, and though he regretted that he was now forced to leave them, yet hs could never be a party to hanging round this young colony the millstone ' oi Protection. iChetrs.) , c Dr Fi'J'ouett replied to tne arguments of Mr Bruce. He contended that the i** e " traders had not said anything which should prevent tho tariff becoming the law of the Mr Beetham moved the adjournment of tho debate, but after a short discussion (in the course of which the Premier, replying to Mr Seddon, said he could not say then what facilities’ would be givep to private members Bills) fie withdrew it. Mi’ Beetham then proceeded to make hi? speech. no denied that he was a rabid Freetrader, but contended that tfio Government had

«rossed the Rubicon, and gone too far. He said this with the more regret because he bad foil twelve years consistently followed the Premies 1 ) and 1 had always found him a worthy IhadsV.- He considered, however, that many economies tfotafl'di bo effected } in education, for instance, by raising' the sohool ago. In moving the amendment Vfith 1 which 1 he should conclude, he did not refer to retrehofimoMi by dismissing Civil servants, except in the Railway Department, where he thought £40,000 could bo saved by judioious pruning. Referring fro the remarks of the Minister of Education, Mf BSetbam expressed regret at the htateriveuts made by the Minister with reference to the Wellington Education Board. As a member of the Board he could bear testimony to its good administration. However, fie Wofild have' Other opportunities for discussing this question. lie might say he was not in favor of abolishing Eduoation Boards, He was in favor Of Ceasing tho San Francisco mail service artbSidy, and believed at least £20,000 a yqar could be saved iu that way. Revcirtfifg fro railway matters, he said that ho thought th’ey otrould cease trying to get people from Homo to the railways. He believod that if a board of directors, consisting of Messrs Maxwell, O’Connor, and Hauuay, was formed, they could manage the railways with tho greatest success. . He moved aB an amendment, That it is desirable to delay the committal of tho Customs Duties Bill, 80 as to enable the Government to Sflother opportunity of considering whetfief fiOcessiticJ > for a Potion of the' tdi-lafidn Wottld tj@ 9P ated by further ffitrenfifimsfil- M& era* claimed any . other motives ftirtri ifeosef of eodfi'bffiy influencing him in moving told amendment. Before Bitting down, ho tools exception to Mr Merit&th'f? staifreirferit'that tho Premier had carried out tihS . pfilicy of legislation by roads and bridges initiated by Sir Julius Yogel. Having followed tnol remier for many years, he considered it his duty to deny such a statement. (Cheers.) Mr Barßo'n Seconded the amendment. Mr Rhodes moved the adjournment of the debate till 2.30 next day.Mr Fish asked what the Govern merit odti to say about Mr Beetbam's ameudmoDt.(Hon members ; He said he Would take it as a no-confidence motion.)

Mr R. Reeves urged the Gcri'erntrselifr to' go to a division at once. The Premier said he was quite willing to do that. (Cheers.) Mr Seddon asked Mr Beetham to state that ba hsqi not arranged this amendment with the Bremiet; with a view to proving that it was not the desire of frfio Government to make Opposition votes safe for the session. The motion for the adjournment of the debate was carried, and the House rose at 12.35.