HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 849, 8 June 1888, Page 23

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WEDNESDAY, JUNE G. Tho House met at 2.30. CUSTOMS AND EXCISE DUITES BILL.

The Premier, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it would be unnecessary for him to make a speech ou the occasion. He trusted, however, that hon members would approach the question in a fair spirit; and he might say that the Government, while adhering to their proposals as a whole, wished that every consideration should he given to theta, in order that the taxation should be fairly dealt with ; aud they would be glad to receive any suggestions. Mr COWAN gave the Government every eredit for tho manner in which they had effected retrenchment. He was entirely, opposed to the financial proposals, so far as they concerned Protective duties ; but he recognised that tho Government must have revenue, and would support them so far as taxation for revenue purposes alone was concerned. Believing, as he did, that expediture should be reduced to the lowest possible limit, he regretted that the motions proposed by Mr Ormond on the previous night had not been carried. Referring to education, he said he was in favor of raising the school age and of asking parents to pay something toward the education of their children above the fourth standard. He was of opinion, too, that assistance to higher education should bevery largely curtailed; and had the Minister of Education dealt with his department as be (Mr Cowan) suggested, he believed £IOO,OOO could have teen saved. Regarding subsidies to local bodies, he maintained that' they should not be paid out of loan ; people had been glad to receive the money, and so long as they were notdirec ly called upon to pay it back had not thought of the consequences. He believed, however, that the course now proposed, of paying part of the subsidies out of a tea duty, would have an excellent effect. With rospeot to the primage duty, however, he agreed with the Treasurer, holding that it was time they should discontinue funding deficits. But, looking at the depressed state of the country, he thought it was inopportune to take this step now. With regard to reduction of expenditure, he thought there were departments in which greater reductions f could have been made. He instanced the Volunteer vote and mail servicss (holding that the San Francisco service should be done without). Touching the Bill itse'f, he expressed regret, looking at the great distress among the agricultural population, that the manufactures most needed by them—harvest twine, corn sacks, barbed wire, &c.—should not be relieved from heavy taxation. He urged the Treasurer to take example by Mr Goscben’s action in England recently', and if occasion arose for a conversion of loans to a lower rate of interest to take advantage of it. He thought it was possible to derive much more revenue from Property-tax, say by reducing

the exemption to £2OO, and providing thak every person holding more than £SOO worth of property should have no exemption. There was ample room also for reform in the management of railways. Our charge- foacarrying grain 50 miles was 50 per eenfe higher than in Victoria. That was a veryserious thing for farmers, and he urged the Treasurerto consider whether some alteration! cottld not be made. Finally, he expressed a. hope that the House would insist that the good work of retrenchment which had been begun by the Government should be carried on. (Cheers.) ‘Mr Hobbs said he had been surprised afc the silence of the Opposition, but wbeu he> remembered who it was that kept the kites Govern men Flu* bffioe'during three years of extravagance, he saw why they were so dumb now on the other side of the House. For the hopefulness and the “ leaps' and bounds" of the late. Colonial-Treasurer had passed away like a dream, and now the Government was forced to bring down most" sweeping proposals. Referring to those proposals, Mr Hobbs said it would have been better to abolish the property-tax exemption than to tax tea. He vigorously opposed the abqlition of education boards, and said the proposal to do so Was a deep conspiracy to centralise everything in Wellington. If the Government had been in earnest they could have proposed an income-tax. He should vote for the second reading of the Bill, reserving his right to move amendments in committee with a view to reducing taxation. He believed considerable reduction conld be made in public expenditure.

Mr Smith said the Premier had always been against tea aud sugar taxation while he was out of office, and in favor of it when in office. He complained that the tariff was so arranged as to cause taxation to fail heavily od the working classes. He moved that the Bill be lead a second time that day six months.

Mr Mac ißthur was of opinion that retrenchment could have been effected to a much greater extent than had been done. He accused the Government of deserting their party and throwing themselves into the: arms of the Opposition. He asked whether the Premier had fulfilled his promise last session to bring down a tariff which would satisfy both Proteotionists aud Freetraders. The Premier said what ho had said was, in a lively way, that he would endeavor to bring in a tariff which would please both sides.

Mr Macarthur said he had not heard before that it was said in a “lively way.” (Laughter.) At any rate it had not satisfied both parties. The Premier : Yes it has ; the best Freetraders in the country approve it.

Mr Macakthur doubled that. Mr W. P. Reeves: There’s no satisfying Freetraders.

Mr Macarthur, continuing, questioned whether the Government were right in leaving the House to decide whether < ertain services should be retained ; it was the duty of the Government, he maintained, to lead the House. The Premier would have been the first to object to such a course when in opposition, and had, he thought, once taken exception to it. He justified his stand as a Freetrader by objecting to any taxation for Protect! n purposes, and said that the piesent tariff would create political influence through many industries. He admitted that the Freetraders were in a minority, and said no Government was ever in a bettfyr position to carry reforms than were the present Government. The Premier, having thrown himself into the hands of the Protectionists (who welcomed him in much the same spirit as the grizzly bear did the unwilling traveller), must continue now ou that downward path. What the Government should have done was to dangle the bunch of carrots before the Opposition a little longer until they bad got their other measures through. (Oh !) He deprecated voting money for useless railways, and said that although there was a railway in his distriot which he believed to be one of the most justifiable in the Colony, he would vote against expenditure on it, though it cost him his election, if he thought that doing so would be for the good of the Colony. When the Bill was in committee he should move to strike out several items in <he tariff, especially that of duty ou machinery now on its way to the Colony. -He knew of cases in which that duty would cause exceptional hardship, and instanced one case in which a company which had ordered £22,000 worth of machinery would have to pay £4OOO or £SOOO ou it—which would have the effect of Killing the company concerned. That was not encouraging local industry. In conclusion, Mr Macarthur said that a Protective tariff would fall with uudue heaviness on country sett'ers. He could not understand how the Ministry had agreed on the tariff, since four of them were avowed Freetraders. He was inclined to think they had been hoodwinked by older and astuter members iuto believing that it was a Freetrade tariff. (Laughter.) He should vote against the motiou for second reading. (Cheers.) Dr Newman wished to enter his protest against what he conceived to be an unwise financial policy: He thought the tariff was a bad one, and the remedy unutterably bad. He pointed out that only three years ago the Government of the day brought in a Protective tariff which was rejected maiDly on account of the opposition of the present members of the Government. He charged the Premier with a breach of faith by bringing a Bill down to give large grants of land to companies, and to tax and borrow money—all against the pledges of the members of the present Government. Thotgh unfortunate Civil, servants bad had their wages very largely reduced, there were st.ll extravagances going on ; for instance, in the financial administration of the Colony. The Government were paying six per' cent for money, without trying to get it for less by following the examplo of other colonies and asking tenders for it in the Colony. He condemned the Treasurer’s proposal for dealing with the deficit. He doubted whether the hon gentleman could make both ends meet as he proposed, since the depressed condition of the people would probably prevent his expectations being realised, and there was the Supplementary Estimates to be provided ior. He ; stiougly opposed the tea , tax, as pressing with great

heaviness on the poorest classes, who used tiha cheapest tea. All the way through ho onnsidored the tariff monstrously unjust. Yet although these burdens were to be oast on the poorest classes—although there was such depression throughout the country —absentees and property wore not tohbhect. Surely a tax on the totolisator would obviate the necessity of this heavy taxation. He objected to the primage duty* remarking that he believed the Treasurer would tax the sunlight and the wind if he could get a port of entry forifc. Moreover thoprimage duty would create a bad precedent. Thh’lightheartedness with which this matter had been approached was to be deprecated, he thought; it was not as though only industries had been taxed instead of the necessaries of life. Ho believed the tariff would cause gloom and misery throughout the Colony ; and as one who had opposed the Stout-Vogel Government’s tariff, he felt it his duty to oppose this, which was worse than anything that Government ever brought down.

Mr Menteath commented on the spectacle of a Government who had [been. put into office by a party now making proposals which, were directly against that party’s opinions. He likened the Premier’s action to that of Sir Robert Peel, and warned the boa gentleman to beware of that; statesman's fate politically. He trusted it would he the last time that the Premier would have the opportunity of playing such a game. (The Premier ; Hear, hear.) “We have a right to say we have been betrayed ’’ said Mr Menteath. The Premier : Who are we ? Mr Menteath : I will tell the Premier who “we’’ are at my own time —not his. (Hear, hear.) Ho quoted from Mr Fisher’s eleotion speeches where that gentleman expressed resentment agaist the Stout - Vogel Government for proposing to tax the necessaries of the worltingclnssea, and asking the working classes to pay part only part—of the deficiency. The lion gentleman made merry over the pro poaals to tax cottons and other articles, while silks aud other articles went free ; and the people believed him their friend. And when he got into office what did he do ? Assisted to bring down a tariff in which tea, cottons, brown hollands, and many other articles which the working classes used were to be taxed to the utmost. (Hear, hear.) Leaving this subject, after expressing regret that members laughed at suoh a negleot of election pledges, Mr Menteath said he quite recognised the sincerity of Mr Ballanca in this matter. He had, be said, always had his doubts about the present Government ; he feared the Premier had been too long a pupil of the late Colonial Treasurer to depart from his teachings, that his only resourse was that curse of the Colony—borrowed money. We had been governed for the last 15 years by corruption, and now a new weapon of corruption had been forged the weapon of Protection, by which political influence could be obtained. And the time would come wheu the people would recognise this corruption, and see that it was as bad as the older means of roads and bridges, and they would hurl the present Government from offioe with anathemas as deep and loud as those with which they had deposed the last Government. He admitted that for the next year or two the Protection boom would resemble in a smaller degree the Public Works boom, but when those few years had passed they wouM have left a few puny industries in which capital had been spent, and the Colony would be in a worse plight than ever. He protested, too, against the moral effect of this policy, holding that we could buildup industries that would stand by themselves. However, he was not going into a dissertation on Freetrade and Protection. He should resist the Bill, and divine the House on every duty in it except a few ; and he should oppose the Bill always on these grounds, namely, that it was born of a Dolitical fraud, and that tho revenue was not needed, no such reason having been given. He objected to the suggestion of the Government that the House should'express its opinion on certain services ; it was for the Government to lead the House, and to stand or fall by it. Members who were with him were not going to be trapped into sayiDg what their policy was, though he had no doubt there , were gentlemen in the House who could bring down a policy which would he acceptable to the Colony. (Laughter.) Mr Menteath said Ministers laughed on those benches for tho last time, (Cheers). Finally, lie protested that the tariff taxed labor everywhere, and was a device for saving property from taxation. He charged those who were supporting the tariff, and who claimed to be the friends of labor, with supporting that which would inflict crushing taxation on labor in order that property might escape. He taunted the Government with having among their members several doomed Freetraders, aDd with throwing out ootopus-like arms to catch support, and he warned the Opposition to take to heart the advice given to Deßdemona by her father—“ Look to her, Moor ; she has betrayed.her father, and may betray thee.” Let the Opposition look to it that the Premier, having betrayed his party, did not betray them. vCheers.) The usual adjournment vva3 taken at 5.30.

EVENING SITTING. Tho House resurasd at 7.30. CP-TOMS duties and excise bill. Mr Taylor, resuming the debate, provoked the laughter of members by announcing that since dinner he had been ruminating. He charged Mr Mentoath with “ turning inside up and inside down,” and said he was neither the embodiment of knowledge nor consistency. Mr Taylor denied that the working classes were going to be specialty taxed, and urged the Premier to “ shake off these old-fashioned gentlomen." If the Premier was a Chrißtchurch man, he said, there would be none of this shuffling and “messing about.” With respect to property-tax be said that in towns, if the exemption was removed, what with :bnt and tho ordinary mU.s, it would he the same as confiscating a man's property. Dr Ho no kin son thought the House was making a false start. They had been invited to ro ulate the amount of money to be iaisied by H, nx down subsidies; but they were** by t? >siil raising the money lirst. Ha-was of pinion that considerable reductions inigbiibe mado—in public services, in education, and subsidies to local bodies for instance. He regretted that the Government had

not been bolder in this matter. As to the tariff, ho thought there had'been a good deal of useless controversy as to whether it was to be Protection or Freetrade ; for that was a question, he considered, that necessity would settle. For his part he did not think the tariff proposed was unfairly Protective. As to the tea duty he did not disapprove that so much as he did tho object for which it was raised. It would have been better to either pay subsidies out of propertytax or abolish them. Ho was under tho impression, howover, that the tariff could have been framed so as to make it Icbs oppressive. With regard to the property-tax, he considered the exemption should be abolished. Mr Pi’KE ventured to say that there was more taxation in the tariff on articles we could not produce than on what wo could produce ; wherefore he failed to see how it could be called aljProteotive tariff. He held that the State had no right to tax people to give free education over the three R.’s ; beyond tho fourth standard education should bo paid for. He thought also that the secondary education should be cut down. In the adjacent colonies there was no free secondary education. He wao in favor of scholarships by winch children of talent could rise from one school to the other. Ho asserted that the school ag3 should bo raised, and that many children were sent to school too young and tortured with mysteries of education—tortured to an extent which exceeded the torture of the Inquisition. (Laughter.) He thought subsidies to local bodies should be stopped. With regard to Protection, he was a Freetrader, and. was going to support the Bill. He did not sympathise with the extreme Freetraders at all in this matter, for as he had. said he found that many artioles were taxed which could not bo produoed 'in the Colony. At the same time ho saw many anomalies, which he would endeavor to get put right. For instance, he saw that dried apples were to be charged Id and dried fruit 2d. He wanted to know what dried apples were but dried fruit? He remarked that if there wao one industry that required protection it Was fruit-growing, whioh really was a native industry. Boot and shoo making was n it-—it was an imported industry, and the Natives did not use such things. (Laughter.)' He pointed out that machinery which could not be made in tne Colony was heavily taxed, and objected to it, on the ground that this machinery was very largely used in local industries. It seemed, he said, a very hard thing that enormous duties should have to be paid on machinery now on its way to the Colony. Having criticised tho tariff at length, Mr Pyke said he should support the second reading of the Bill, on the understanding that every consideration would be given to it in committee with a view to modifications.

Mr Hutchison impressed it upon the House that the Opposition were only supporting the Government now because they approved the tariff. He commented upon the “melancholy spectacle’’ of the fate that had overtaken “united Wellington,” and remarked that the gentlemen who had broken up that combination, which was originally a Freatrade one, had proved themselves political acrobats, and would probably settle on the other side of the House, or in the middle. Proceeding to discuss the tariff, Mr Hutchison referred to the primage proposal as a somewhat weak one. He spoke at some length on the defence vote, and urged the House that if tho defences were to be efficient the vote should be increased.

The Minister for Defence, replying to Mr Hutchison, said no one had been a greater political gambler than that hon gentleman, who had in his time bitterly attacked Mr Ballance (whom he now supported) and would do so again. The hon gentlemen had, iudeed, been asking some very nice questions lately, as he be* lioved, with the idea of attacking Mr Ballance, and the motion now on the Order Paper in his name for a committee of defence would show, if it showed anything at all, tbe utter incompeteucy of the late Minister of Defence (Mr Ballance). Why, the Naval Defence Bill which Mr Hutchison frequently opposed was actually agreed to by the previous Government. He was informed that the hon gentleman had been contributing, articles on defence to one of the papers in his distriot. He had not seen any of those articles, and he did not think he should miss anything if the articles were no better than his speeches. With respect to a suggestion made earlier in the day, that the country Volunteer corps should be abolished, Mr Fergus said the! liabilities would have to be taken over in that case; and he found that to save £3OOO or £4OOO by doing this, £30,000 or £40,000 would have to be taken over in liabilities ; and. he regretted that a little more could not be given to garrison corps to increase t.beir efficiency; but looking at the condition of tho Colony, all the Government could do was what they were doing. Now a few words about the him member for To Aro. He liked that gentleman’s manner in lecturing the House on consistency—a gentleman who had sat on a rail ever since he had come into the House ; who assisted in the attempt to pass the Meiggs scheme, and voted for that iniquity. Mr Menteath said he never voted for that proposal. The Minister for Defence said he found in Hansard that Mr Menteath argued strongly for that scheme. Mr Menteath said the hon gentleman would again pardon him. He did not argue either strongly or weakly for that scheme. Tho Minister of Defence, continuing, said that Mr Menteath had left the then Government before, but he joined them when the Midland Railway came on, and was with them till he was elected for Te Aro, on the other side. Late in the session tho hon geutleman made a speech which astonished both sides ot die House, and now he said he hail left the Government. Why, the Government never owned, him ; they “ would Bpew him out of tho mouth.” (Laughter.) Mr Fergus went on to say that Mr Menteath and the few gentlemen who were with him had no bond of union at all, except that they were opposed to tho tariff. They would not declare for an increase of the property-tax, or for anything else. He maintained that the taiid Vi.% Gq.-.sed for revenue purposes alone ■ .md .... r ■; . ,/m tho Government being used as. a u.■. -iy the Protectionism he said that the H-.jUoo would find that the Government had in this matter risen above

small considerations. Hon gentlemen talked glibly of further reductions in the Civil Service, but he assured them that they would not do so if they knew the Service as Well as he did, and knew how much had had to be done already in the way of retrenchment.

Mr W. P. Reeves likened Mr Fergus iu his attack on Mr Menteath to Satan reproving sin, and remarked that the hon gentleman was a member of the Cabinet which supported the Midland Railway, whioh he had condemned as an iniquity.' Alluding to the position of the Opposition, Mr Reeves maintained that this was an occasion when old associations might be diaruptured, either permanently or temporarily., for the benefit of tho country. He congratulated Mr Menteath on having at last found something to which be could stick, and hoped he would find it more congenial than the Midland railway was. He contended that the tariff would not injure the farmers, but would on the contrary assist to find markets for them. After freely reviewing the speeches of the debate, Mr Reeves defended the Premier from the charges of disloyalty. At tho last election did anyone of these gentlemen who now accused him of disloyalty stand by him ? No, they did not. (Mr Macarthur : Yes they did.) Only one gentloman stood up for Major Atkinson, as ho was then, at the elections, and was taken for a lunatic. (Laughter.) The hon gentleman had led them through everything, and when the Stout Government wore to be ousted he was the person they called upoo. At the elections, however, they said nothing about him, and some of them wished he would not come back again. tie having “driven Vogel out” was given “a fair show,” and formed a Cabinet ; aud many of bis party had been talking ever since of the severe strain he put upon them when he didn’t take them into hi 3 Cabinet. (Cheers.) What, then, was tho value of tho charges of disloyalty levelled at the Premier? In conclusion, Mr Reeves said the Opposition voted aye or no on tho question before them, leaving the future.to take care of itself; and for his part he voted for this policy because it suited him. Ho contended that the tariff now proposed would have moat beneficial effects on the laboring classes. He, on behalf of his people, thanked the Premier for his tariff, as he thankod him for his courageous and statesmanlike action in bringing his policy before the House. To the question “ Under whioh king, Bezonian - speak or die?” be replied “ King Harry !” (Laughter and cheers ) Major Steward said the Government were following largely iu the steps of their predecessors in the matter of the tariff. Speaking upon other questions, he avowed himself in favor of an income tax and a reduction of education expenditure. Ho disapproved the tea duty, and suggested that a carriage tax would fall upon tho proper shoulders, namely, those of the wealthy. He should support the financial proposals as a whole, considering them worthy of support. ;-• \ Mr Grimmond opposed tho Bill, on the ground that the money required could be raised in other ways. At thie junoture the question that the word “now” stand part of the question (the question being that the Bill be now read a second time) wa3 put and lost on the voices, and the Speaker declared tho amendment lost.

Air Buchanan regretted that he was now compelled to vote against the Premier. He was of opinion that further reductions could be made in expenditure, that money could be saved by putting charitable aid on a better footing ; and that it would lead to a much better state of affairs _if each district were dependent on its own local rates. He believed the San Francisco mail service should be stopped, and no further subsidies paid to the Direct Service. (The Premier : That could not take effect for two years.) Mr Buchanan thought it oould at anyrate have been foreshadowed. He also held that the change in the management of railways and the rearrangements of departments should be made as speedily as possible. Coming to the tariff itself, he' said the Premier’s constituents would not thank him for the way in which he had dealt with farmers’ industries, and he specially condemned the duty on salt as having a prejudicial effect on those industries. Whether the tariff was meant to be protective or revenue raising, it was, in the face of this circumstance, difficult to say. Ho should vote against the Bill, holding that the Protective policy of Government, so far as it went, would cripple the best intere.ts of tho Colony. Air Allen moved the adjournment of the debate till next day, which was carried by 62 to 18. The House adjourned at 11.35.