PARLIAMENT.
IiEGUSLATIVE COUNCIL.
THURSDAY, JULY 29. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. WELLINGTON AND HANAWATU RAILWAY COMPANY'S additional capital bill. This Bill was committed. The preamble was slightly amended, and the Bill was reported with amendments. The Bill was read a third time and passed. local bodies loan bill. The adjourned debate on the question for the appointment of the Couneil’s managers to act on a seeond free conference with managers of the House of Representatives relative to the disagreements by members of the House of Representatives in certain amendments in clause 38 of the Local Bodies Loans Bill was resumed by _ Mr LAHMANN, who expressed the hope that the former managers on the Conference would not consent to act on the second proposed Conference. Mr MENZIES' amendment, that the question be now put, went to a division, resulting as follows : —Ayes, 15 ; noes, 20. GOLD DUTIES REDUCTION ACT BILL. The Gold Duties Reduction Act Bill was received from the House of Representatives. On the motion for the first reading of the Bill, Mr WILSON asked the ruling of the Speaker as to whether a Bill which had been rejected could be again brought up during the same session. Mr BUCKLEY pointed out that the BUI referred to emanated from the House of Representatives, and not from the Legislative Council, and thus it did not interfere with the Standing Orders of the Council. The SPEAKER intimated his intention of giving his ruling on the points raised on the the next day. The Bill was read a first time. DEFENCE BILL. . 4 Some unimportant amendments in the Defence Bill proposed by the Governor were agreed to. COAL MINES BILL. Mr BUCKLEY moved that certain amendments in the Coal Mines Bill made by the Council, and disagreed with by the House of Representatives, be not insisted upon. Carried. MINING COMPANIES BILL. . The Council agreed with a certain amendment in the Mining Bill proposed by the Governor. IN COMMITTEE. The Native Land Administration Bill and the Native Land Court Bill were recommitted with a view to making some amendments. These were agreed to, and the third reading of the Bills were made orders for the following day. SETTLED LAND BILL. The adjourned debate on the motion for the second reading of the Settled Laud Bill was resumed by Mr HOLMES, who objected to the Bill, chiefly on the ground that it was not required, and was only designed to meet the requirements of a special case. Sir F. WHITAKER replied, and the motion for the second reading was agreed to. The Bill was ordered to be committed on Monday next. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill was further considered in Committee. On clause 36, dealing with how funds shall be provided by the Colonial Treasurer, it was proposed that the latter part of the clause should be struck out The question went to a division. Ayes, 17 ; noes, 16. The clause was re- * tained. The Bill as amended was reported, and the third reading was made an order for the following day. The Council took the usual adjournment at 5 o'clock. EVENING SITTING. The Council resumed at 7.30. THE COUNTIES BILL. The Counties Bill was re-committed with a view to consider certain amendments in the Bill. The Bill was reported with amendments, and the third reading was made an order for the next sitting. FIRST OFFENDERS BILL. The First Offenders Probation Bill was further considered in committee, and on the motion of Mr Wilson, the following new clauses' were agreed to : Notwithstanding anything hereinbefore contained, the following provisions shad apply in respect to persons accused of an offence under this Act: —A Court of summary jurisdiction, after hearing the evidence, may discharge such person without sentencing him ; or the Supreme Court, at. any stage of the trial of such person, may direct him to be discharged either before or after verdict; and such discharge shall have all the effect of an acquittal of the accused in. respect of the offence for which he was committed for trial, held to bail, or indicted. Nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to annul, abridge, or alter any authorities or jurisdiction which any Court, or any Judge or Justices thereof, possesses or possess . under any Act other than this Act, or otherwise. The new clauses were agreed to, and the Bill, with amendments, was reported. ■SHEEP ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Sheep Act Amendment Bill was committed, and was reported with amendments. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL. The Civil Service Reform Bill was considered .Discussion ensued on clause 15. Progress being reported on the clause, leave being given to sit again. MORTGAGE DEBENTURES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Mortgage Debentures Act Amendment
Bill, and the Port Chalmers Fire Brigade Site Bill were read a second time. § WAIMATE RACECOURSE TRUSTEES EMPOWERING BILL. The Waimate Racecourse Trustees Empowering Bill was committed, and progress was reported. PRIVATE BTLLS. The Auckland Harbor Board Loan Bill, the City of Christchurch Municipal Offices Bill, and the Oamaru Harbor Board Loan Bill were read a second time. The Council at 11 o’clock adjourned to the following day. FRIDAY, JULY 30. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY laid upon the table a return showing the expenditure out of loans in each of the provincial districts of the Colony from Ist January, 1870, to 31st March, 1886. GOLD DUTY REDUCT.ON BILL. On the Orders of the Day being called on relative to the Gold Duty Reduction Bill, The SPEAKER said the Council had asked his ruling on the previous day as to whether the Bill, which, it was contended, was to all intents and purposes, a Bill under another name, which had been rejected by the Council this session, could be introduced during the same session, although under another name. The Speaker read the following ruling:— The second reading of the Gold Export Duty Abolition Bill was taken on the 20th of June. On the 2nd July the debate was resumed and adjourned. On the 6th July the debate finished, and the Bill was. ordered'to be read a seeond time that day six months ; the division list showed 16 to 15. On the 29th July a Bill was sent to the Council called the Gold Duty Reduction Bill. An order for the second reading was made for to-day, and I was requested to state my opinion when that order should be called on, whether Standing Order No. 131 permitted such a Bill to be introduced. The full title of the Bill rejected by the Council was “ An Act to abolish the export duty ou gold by gradual reduction.” The full title of the Bill now presented for second reading is “An Act to reduce the export duty on gold for a limited period.” Standing Order No. 131 reads as follows When a Bill or motion shall have been rejected by the Council no Bill or motion of the same argument and matter, or to effect the same object, shall be brought forward during the same session.’ The Council, in my opinion, cannot entertain the Bill now called on for second reading without violating Standing Order No. 131. The Bill is accordingly laid aside. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. On the orders of the day to read the Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill a third 4ll Sir F. WHITAKER remarked that the ruling of the Speaker with regard to clause. 36 had created a difficulty, inasmuch as his ruling said that the Bill being a money Bill could not be amended by the Council. By leave of the Council, he moved that the Bill be laid aside. The SPEAKER agreed with the motion of Sir F. Whitaker, that with the leave of the Council lie could direct tliat the Bill be laid aside. This procedure was, he considered, a more simple method than moving a formal resolution. The Speaker directed accordingly. NATIVE BILLS. The Native Land Administration Bill and the Native Court Bill, were read a third time and passed. THIBD READINGS. The third reading of the Counties Bill, and the First Offenders Probation Bill, and the Sheep Act Amendment Bill, were read a third time and passed. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL. The Civil Service Reform Bill was further considered in committee. On clause. 4, refering to the appointment of cadets, discussion ensued, "resulting in progress being reported, leave being given to sit again. MORTGAGE DEBENTURES BILL. The Mortgage Debentures Bill was read a third time and passed. FIRST READINGS. The Public Bodies Leasing Bill and the Administration Act Amendment Bill, were received from the House of Representatives and read a first time. PROGRESS MADE. Progress in committee was made in the following Bill, leave being given in each instance to sit again Port Chalmers Fire Brigade Site Bill, Otago Board Leasing Bill, Auckland Harbor Board Lqan Bill, City of Christchurch Municipal Offices Bill, and the Oamaru Harbor Board Loan Bill. IN COMMITTEE. The Port Chalmers Fire Brigade Site Bill, Otago Harbor Board Leasing Bill, Auckland Harbor Board Loan Bill, City of Christchurch Municipal Offices Bill, and the Oamaru Harbor Board Loan Bill, were further considered in committee, progress being reported in each case. , , _ , The Council, at 5 o’clock, adjourned to Monday next. MONDAY, AUGUST 2. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPER. MR BUCKLEY presented further correspondence relative to immigration to New Zealand. HUTT AND PETONE GAS COMPANY BILL. The Committee appointed to consider the above Bill brought up their report recommending that the Bill should be allowed to proceed, it being a private Bill. This was agreed to. MOTION. Dr POLLEN moved, That a return be laid upon the table of this Council showing the number of cadets in the Civil Service who have been appointed in each year during the three years last past, other than persons skilled in medicine, law. navigation, science, and the management of live stock ; exclusive also of cadets appointed under the Defence Act, loob, the Police Force Act, 1886, and of those appointed to the Postal, Telegraph, and I üblic Works Departments respectively. The motion was agreed to. NEW BILL. Mr TAIAROA moved, for and obtained leave to introduce a Bill intituled an Act to Lessen the Expenses of Litigation in Maori Suits or Actions. The Bill was read a first time. SETTLED LAND BILL. On the motion for the committal of the Settled Land Bill, Mr ROBINSON expressed the hope that the hon gentleman in charge of the Bill would not persist in proceeding with the Bill. He confessed that he failed to understand it, and he thought few other people understood it, So far as he could ascertain the Bill was not a copy of the English Act. , . Sir F. WHITAKER maintained that the proposed measure was almost an exact copy of the English Act. He hoped the Bill would be allowed to proceed. The SPEAKER, before putting the question, mentioned that he had received a message, from the House of Representatives asking for leave for a Committee of the House, to inspeet the Journals of the Council relative to the position of the Government Loans to Local
Bodies Bill which was laid aside on Friday last. Mr REYNOLDS moved that leave be given, the time and place for such inspection to be the Clerk’s room, at noon the following day. The SPEAKER, said he should put the motion by Mr Reynolds, if there was no dissent. Mr MANTELL remarked that he dissented. The SPEAKER said that, as dissent was offered, he must put the question jfor the committal of the Settled Land Bill. The Council went into committee on the Settled Land Bill. Several amendments of no great moment were agreed to, and the Bill as amended was reported, the third reading being made an order for the following day. THE GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. Mr REYNOLDS moved the motion relative to agreeing to the committee appointed by the House of Representatives to inspect the Journals of the Council bearing on the Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill. Motion agreed to. ADMINISTRATION ACT EXTENSION BILL. Mr BUCKLEY moved the second reading of the Administration Act Extension Bill which was agreed to. MESSAGE PROM THE HOUSE. A message was received from the House of Representatives announcing that the House had passed the Cathedral Site (Parnell) Reserves Bill, had agreed to amendments proposed by the Council in the First Offenders Probation Bill, and had passed the Deceased Persons Etates Amendment Bill. . The latter proposed measure was read a first time. OTAGO HARBOR BRIDGE BILL. The Otago Harbor Bridge Bill was committed and reported with amendments. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL. Mr REYNOLDS moved the following new clause instead of clause A. : —All appointments to the Civil Service shall be make by selection in rotation from amongst the permanent residents within the several electoral districts of the Colony, each such electoral district being selected by lot by the Colonial Secretary as the one from which candidates shall be first selected and so on in turn, and in such manner that no candidates from any one electoral district shall be invited a second time until candidates have been invited from all other such districts. "When any cadet or cadets are required for the Civil Service the fact shall be notified in the Gazette, and also in such newsgaper as the Colonial Secretary Bhall appoint aving general circulation within the electoral district from which candidates for appointment are to be then invited, requiring applications to be made for appointment in manner as may from time to time be prescribed. The applications shall be considered by the Minister for whose department the cadet or cadets are required respectively, and such Minister may select those he may think most suitable, but also may reject any or all of such applications. Discussion ensued. Dr GRACE moved as an amendment that cadets be appointed to the Civil Service by competitive examinations. The Council took the usual adjournment at 5 o’clock. EVENING SITTING. The Committee on the Civil Service Reform Bill resumed at 7.30. After discussion, clause 9 was rejected on a division. Ayes, 10; noes, 22. Dr Grape’s amendment, for competitive annual examination of cadets, was carried on the voices. HARBORS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments made by the House of Representatives in the Harbors Act Amendment Bill were considered by the Council, and the debate, after discussion, was reserved till the following day. PORT CHApMERS FIRE BRIGADE SITE BILL. The Port Chalmers Fire Brigade Site Bill was read a third time, and passed. OTAGO HARBOR BOARD LEASING ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Otago Harbor Board Leasing Act Amendment Bill was further considered in committee. On clause 4, Captain Fraser moved that the clause be struck out. Eventually progress was reported, and leave given to sit again. AUCKLAND HARBOR BOARD LOAN BILL. The Auckland Harbor Board Loan Bill was further considered in committee, and was reported with amendments. IN COMMITTEE. The City of Christchurch Municipal Offices Bill and the Oamaru Harbor Loan Bill were further considered, and were agreed to without amendment. The Council at 9.40 adjourned to the following day. TUESDAY, AUGUST 3. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY laid upon the table the following papers Those relative to the school of Forestry and Agriculture, report of the Select Committee of the Legislative Council on goldfields, and the 17th annual report of the Botanic Board of 1885-86. VICE REGAL ASSENT TO BILL, The Governor’s assent was given to a number of Bills. PERSONS HELD FOR TRIAL. Mr PEACOCK moved, that, in the opinion of this Council, the prison regulations should be altered so as to conform with clause 14 of the Prisons Act, 1882, whereby the treatment of persons confined for safe custody, and unconvicted of crime, may be made as little oppressive as possible. Mr Peacock, in bringing forward his resolution, said' that the prisoners held in the prisons of other colonies for trial were treated diffierently than in other colonial prisons. Mr BONAR seconded the motion with great pleasure. Mr BUCKLEY, speaking as the Colonial Secretary of the Colony, said he had no objection to the motion, but he desired to say that the Prison Regulations of the Colony were far easier and less irksome to prisoners awaiting trial than they were in other colonies. Mr BATHGATE feared that his protest would at this late stage of the session have little effect so far as ic referred to prisoners or to the publK He objected entirely to the Department, which was one of pipe-clay and red-tape. The subject was of great importance from a humanitarian point of view. He trusted that next year some hon gentleman would deal with this subject. Captain FRASER supported the motion. Colonel BRETT opposed the motion. As an old army officer he believed that 15 men out of 20 men who were confined a 3 army prisoners were guilty of the crimes attributed to them, and so he believed were the majority of persons held for trial in civil cases. The motion was agreed to. SETTLED LAND BILL. Sir F. WHITAKER moved the third reading of the Settled Land Bill. Colonel BRETT protested that the motion was a wicked emanation of a corrupt legal brain. (Laughter.) The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was passed.
CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Civil Service Reform Bill, Dr GRACE pointed out that the motion was wholly inconsistent, from the face that clause 9 had been substituted by an amendment moved by him on the previous night, and which had been carried. After some remarks by Dr POLLEN, the order for the third reading was discharged, and made an order for the next day. ADMINISTRATION ACT EXTENSION BILL. The Administration Act Extension Bill was committed, and progress was reported. DECEASED PERSONS ESTATES DUTIES. The debate on the question of the second reading of the Deceased Persons Estates Duties Bill was adjourned to the following day. PUBLIC BODIES LEASEHOLDS BILL. The second reading of the Public Bodies Leaseholds Bill was discharged from the Order Paper and made an order of the day for the next day. THE LOAN BILL. The Loan Bill was sent up from the Honse of Representatives and read'a first time. PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The second reading of the Public Trust Office Amendment Bill was agreed to. HARBOR ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Council, as a Committee of the Whole, considered the amendments made by the House of Representatives in the Harbor Act Amendment Blli. Progress was reported, and leave was given to sit again. The Council, at 5 o’clock, adjourned to the following day. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY presented the following papers :—Returns of the Mutual Assurance Society of Victoria, report of Select Committee re petitions in connection with the Destitute Children’s Homes, the Contagious Diseases Ofc HUTT AND PETONE GAS COMPANY BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. MOTIONS. Mr MANTELL moved that the name of the Hon Mr Waterhouse be added to the Library Recess Committee. Agreed to. Mr TAIAROA moved that there be laid on the table of the Council a return of Native lands and reserves, showing the amount of duty paid upon each block by the Government under the Crown and Native Lands Rating Act, with the date of each such payment. The motion was negatived. MAORI SUITS BILL. The order of the day for the second reading of this Bill was discharged, and made an order for the following day. OTAGO HARBOR BOARD LEASING BILL. The Otago Harbor Board Leasing Act Amendment Bill was further considered in committee. Progress was reported, leave being given to sit again, on a division resulting as follows : —Ayes 20, noes 13. PRIVILEGE. Mr ROBINSON rose to a question of priviledge relative to the way he had been reported in Hansard. He had just received a copy of Hansard, and although he seldom complained of the manner in which he was reported, he thought he had a right to complain in the present instance, as he certainly had not said what was attributed to him. Mr BUCKLEY said he had noticed during a portion of the piesent session several inaccuracies in Hansard’s reports of speeches of hon members in the Legislative Council, and but for the lateness of the session he should have called the attention of the Speaker to the fact. Mr McLEAN, Mr HOLMES, and Mr SHRIMSKI spoke to the question, and each hon member testified to the accuracy of the reports of Hansard as a rule. Mr Shrimski said he believed hon members, owing to their imperfect utterances, and not the reporters of Hansard, were to blame. The SPEAKER said he should cause inquiries to be made into the allegations of Mr Robinson and the Colonial Secretary. NEW BILLS. The North Island Main Trunk Railway Loan Bill, the Beer Duty Bill, and the Registration of Deeds Bill were received from the House of Representatives, and read a first time. MINING BILL. The Mining Bill was considered in Committee. A number of amendments were agreed to, and the Committee at 5 o’clock took the usual adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The Council, in committee, resumed at 7.30. Mr Miller occupied the chair as locum tenens of Captain Baillie, the subject being the consideration ofthe Mining Bill. Several clauses were postponed, and some immaterial amendments were agreed to. Progress was reported, leave being given to sit again. Captain Baillie occupied the chair in the absence of the Speaker. THE GOLD DUTY ABOLITION BILL. It was decided that a committee of the House of Representatives should he permitted to inspect the Journals of the Council relative to the Gold Duty Abolition Bill and the Gold Duty Reduction Bill. The inspection, it was resolved, should take place the next day. NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL. Mr REYNOLDS, on the order of the day for the second reading of the New Zealand Loan Bill being called on, moved that the order be discharged and made an order for the following day. Relative to the motion, which was agreed to, Sir F. WHITAKER gave notice of moving the following contingent motion this day (Thursday) : —That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee to ascertain,. (1) Whether the several specified in the schedule have been authorised by special Act, as required by law ; (2) also as to any of the said railways that are not new, the state of the works thereon ; and to report fully thereon to the Council; the Committee to consist of nine members, viz., Messrs Holmes, Johnson, Miller, Pollen, Menzies, Reynolds, Shephard, Wilson, and the mover ; the Committee to have power to send for persons, papers, and records, and to report on or before Monday next, the 9th instant. SECO> D READING. The Deceased Persons Estate Duties Bill was read a second time. PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE BILE. The Public Trust Office Amendment Bill was considered in committee, and reported with amendments. The Council at 9.50 adjourned to next day.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
THURSDAY, JULY 29. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions were presented. QUESTIONS. The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in answer to Mr Smith, said he hoped to be able to arrange for a sitting of the Supreme Court at Napier once every four months. Mr HOBBS asked the Government, Whether it is true that, according. to the last census returns, the area of cultivated land
owned by Maoris north of Auckland. does lioft exceed half an acre per head; also, is it true that the Government intend to allow Maoris to select land in the north under the new special settlement regulations ? The NATIVE MINISTER said, in answer to the first part of the question, it was true ; and as to the second part, he had advised all Natives who had no land to take up some either under the deferred payment .or special settlement system. MOTION. Mr BALLANCE moved, That the petition of Noa-Ta Hianga, reported on by the Native Affairs Committee on the 25th June, 1886, be * referred by this House to the Ovvhaoko and Kaimanawa Lauds Bill Committee for inquiry. QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. Mr BE VAN said he wished to bring a question of privilege before the Speakeivin . connection with something that had hap- «r pened in committee that morning. As Mr Fsrgus, the member implicated, was not present, he would simply state that he would bring the matter up when that gentleman was in attendance.(Mr Fergus arrived a few minutes later.) ■ _ Mr BEVAN brought the question of privi- . lege up. He complained that Mr Fergus had made coarse remarks in committee that morning about the Hokitika-Greymouth line to the effect that it was “a swindle,” etc. He (Mr Bevan) turned around and said, “ It appears to trouble you,” and the hon gentleman answered him with an epithet so offensive that he would not repeat it, though he had it written on a piece of paper. The SPEAKER said the matter should have been brought before the Chairman of Committees at once. He should ask Mr Fergus now to make an explanation, and if it was not satisfactory he should expect a motion to be made. Mr BEVAN handed to the Speaker a piece of paper. Mr FERGUS said when the line in question was before the Committee he had said, in —' answer to a question from Mr W. F. Buckland, N that it was a fraud, or something of that character. The hon member for Hokitika (Mr Bevan) turned round to him, and it was quite possible that he had replied warmly to the hon member. He regretted, however, that Mr Bevan had not spoken to him privately with reference' to it. If he had said anything which offended the hon gentleman, he tendered him now, in the presence of the House, a full apology. (Hear, hear.) The SPEAKER said the hon member for Wakatipu had met the charge as a gentleman should, and it would not now be necessary to proceed further with the matter. Mr BEVAN freely accepted the apology, and said he would have spoken about it privately, but the hon gentleman was in such a state of excitement that he could not approach him. DECEASED PERSONS ESTATES DUTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee. ADMINISTRATION ACT EXTENSION BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee. PUBLIC BODIES LEASEHOLDS BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee. HARBORS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. The usual adjournment was taken at 5.30, •EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. HOSPITALS AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was considered in committee. I Various new clauses were considered. There was a long argument upon clause 2b, providing for representation on District Board to be proportioned to the amount of contribution thereto by the. several contributories. Messrs Walker, McMillan, W. .F. Buckland, and others desired a limit of three representatives for boroughs and five for counties. The Premier said he would agree to a maximum of four for any local body. Dr Newman objected that this was subjecting boroughs, with their large population and contributions, to country districts. Mr Peacock pointed out that if the maximum were fixed at four it did not follow that every local body would be entitled to that number. He and other city representatives denied they had any wish to raise strife between the town and the country, as alleged by some of the speakers. The maximum was eventually fixed at four, and Mr Walker then moved to add “ with exception of boroughs, In ■ which three shall be the maximum.” ThePremier said this would only fairly apply to Canterbury, and was unjust to other districts. Dunedin, for instance, had three time 3 the rateable value or population of any county. Mr W. F. Buckland said round Auckland there were a number of small boroughs, each of which would be represented, and so swamp the county. The Premier said he would agree to group these small boroughs for the purpose of the Act. This compromise was accepted, and Mr Walker’s amendment was withdrawn. Mr Macartbur moved an addition to a clause in the direction of adjusting representation on United Boards on the principle laid down regarding District Boards. Agreed to. Clause 3a, directing Boards to collect contributions on uniform scale, was objected to by Messrs Buchanan, Pearson, and others, who drew the attention of the country members particularly to it. Mr Pearson said he had a clause to move in it 3 place providing for differential contributions. He read it, remarking, parenthetically, that he did not quite understand it, as it was drawn by a lawyer. He asked the Premier if the Government intended to take any notice of the resolution he carried the other night ? If the present system ■were continued it would result in the breaking down. The Premier asked country members how they would like it if the borough members got the upper hand and made the country districts pay twice, as much as towns. Mr Pearson said in Canterbury the country had to support the towns. LIB,OOO was spent on the poor of Sydenham, and Christchurch was rapidly becoming pauperised. Mr Taylor denied that such was the case. An attempt was made to strike out of the clause the words which prevented the imposition of differential rates, but it was negatived by 35 to 20. A motion that the Chairman leave the chair was also negatived, after a long discussion, and the clause was carried intact by 33 to 20. Clause 14, election of trustees for separate institutions. —This was amended so as to provide that if voluntary eontribut 'rs contributed one-sixth, and less than one-third, they shall ~- elect three trustees ; one-third and les3 than one-half, five trustees ; and i: more than onehalf and less than total amount, six trustees. The Premier asked hon members who had motions in reference to districts not to make them that night, and he would postpone his clauses dealing with that question. He proposed to report progress, and then ask the House to adjourn. Progress was reported, and the Bills that had been agreed to in Committee in the afternoon were read the third time and passed, excepting the Deceased Persons Estates Duties Bill, the third reading of which was postponed till next day. DOG REGISTRATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The PREMIER then suggested that the
third reading o£ the Dog Registration Dill should be taken. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND objected. He pointed out that a number of hon members had -gone home not thinking this Bill was to be Drought on. The PREMIER withdrew his motion, and the House rose at midnight. FRIDAY, JULY 30. ' •The House met at 2.30. CATHEDRAL SITE (PARNELL) LEASING BILL. This (private) Bill was read the third time, and passed. > PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. PURCHASE OP STARKE’S PROPERTY. Mr MOSS, Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, brought up the report of the Committee ori the purchase of Starke’s property at Auckland for defence purposes. He explained that, as Chairman of the Committee, he had no vote, but had he had one he should have given it with the minority. The Committee reported to the effect that the Government were justified in tho purchase, and they (the Committee) did not consider that j the land could have been obtained for a less amount in the Compensation Court. Major ATKINSON wished to make a personal explanation in this matter. Mr Holmes (who had met with an accident), as a member of the Committee, wished to vote, and he had therefore paired with that gentleman. Mr Holmes took an opposite view of the matter to that which he (Major Atkinson) took, so that if he had not paired ’with that gentleman the decision would have been -•reversed, there being seven on each side, two of the majority being Ministers. Ordered that the report be printed. QUESTION. Dr NEWMAN asked the Government, Whether any, and, if any, how much, land land has been given for the track of the North Island Main Trunk Railway—(l) by Wahanui, (2) by other Maoris ? The NATIVE MINISTER replied in the negative. Mr MOSS asked the Minister of Justice, What provision is made for special regulations for unconvicted prisoners, in accorance with section 14 of the Prisons Act, 1S83? The MINISTER replied that provision was made, and would be found in the Gazette of April, 1883. PAYMENT OP LABOR. Mr GUINNESS gave notice to ask the_Government whether it is true that the Minister for Public Works had issued a circular to the different officers of the Government directing them to give only 6s a day to all laborers employed by the Government in future? The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said he had heard a great deal of this, and he thought it only fair that he should be allowed to make an explanation. Mr GUINNESS said in that case he would ask the question at once. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said it had been brought under his notice by various officers of the Government that men were offering in large numbers to go to work for 5s a day, and he had given instructions that any men employed in future should not be paid more than 6s. . Mr WILSON asked whether the circular. > contained no more than that. Was there nothing about unskilled labor ? The MINISTER said the circular applied to unskilled labor. Mr WILSON said the circular spoke of skilled labor. Mr GUINNESS suggested that perhaps it would be as well for them to give notice of the question. (Laughter.) Mr WILSON : Will you lay the circular on The PREMIER : I don’t see why we should do that. HOSPITALS AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. The Premier said the only amendments lie would agree to respecting districts were those constituting the North of Auckland and Waikato Hospital Districts. He could not agree to the amendments constituting the Buller, Nelson, and Inangahua districts. He moved an amendment constituting the first two districts. This was agreed to, and an amendment by Mr Levestam to constitute the other districts was lost. Mr Davgaville moved to add the Whangarei, Hobson, and Otahuhu Counties to the North of Auckland district. Carried by 45 to 13. Mr J. B. Whyte move 1 to exempt Piako County from the Thames district. Lost by 34 to 33. The Premier suggested that other amendments should now be dropped. Mr W. C. Buchanan moved as an amendment to separate the Wairarapa from the Wellington and Horowhenua Districts. Before the Act was passed, he said, they had in the Wairarapa two benevolent institutions, 50 per cent, of the cost of which was contributed in the district. Last year, when the Act was before the House, separation was granted in the way of hospitals, but not otherwise. The district had now had a year under the United District Board. The Board levied a differential rate, against which the Wellington district appealed, and the action of the Board was upheld" The Premier told them tne United Board was wrong in levying this rate, and that the commissioners who decided on it were wrong in upholding that rate. He was not going to bandy law with the Premier, but he wished to say that the Wairarapa had always taken a pride in maintaining its own poor. A few days ago the United Board sent a deputation to ask the Premier for separation. The Premier demurred, using arguments that lie (Mr Buchanan) did not think applied to the Wairarapa. The Premier hoped the clause would not be carried. The Wairarapa representatives on the United -Board, hlr Bunny (chairman) and Mr Buchanan “bossed”, the whole affair, and the members for the Hutt, who waited on him the other day, showed that they did not understand the resolution in regard to the differential rate. Mr Buchanan, in answer to the Premier, Bunny was elected chairman by the Wellington members of the .Board ; and further, the Wellington members had publicly thanked the Wairarapa representative for the fairness with whichthev acted. The Premierrepeatedthatthe 'Wairarapa members had put on the rate to levy themselves. ’• he poor of the country, he added, always gravitated to the towns. Mr Pearson sympathised with Mr Buchanan, and would help him as much as possible. Dr Newman said one of the Wairarapa representatives charged very heavy fees—L29 for four visits —and the expenses were heavy. Then the Wellington people found that they were outvoted, and that, was why they petitioned for separation. But the House had now decreed there should be no differential rating, and that the towns should have a better representation ; and, therefore, he hoped that The Committee would not agree to this separation. M.r Beetham pointed out- that tire gentleman who charged the expenses referred to was the Chairman of the Board, and always obliged to attend. He pointed out. further, __that the nearest point, of the Wairarapa district was 35 miles from Wellington. J hey had no endowments—and Wellington had a Large one—and and they wanted dimply to maintain their own . poor. The clause then went to a division
lon the question that it be read a second time. Ayes, 29; noes 31. Clause struck out. An amendment by Mr Walker to separate Ashburton from Christchurch was lost by 36 to 23. An amendment by Major Steward 6o separate Waimate from South Canterbury was lost by 36 to 10. The Bill was then reported, and consideration of amendments set down for next sitting day. MONDAY SITTING. The PREMIER moved that the House at its rising adjourn till Monday at 2.30. He added that he thought the session could be concluded by the end of next week. _ BEER DUTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed, and reported with amendments. The TREASURER moved to recommit it. The usual adjournment was taken at 5.30. EVENING SI i TING. The nouse resumed at 7.30. The question of the recommittal of the Beer Duty Bill was discussed, several gentlemen objecting on the ground that the object of the recommittal was to reintroduce the provision rejected the other evening, that no aerated water or cordial manufacture, or bottling of any kind, should be carried on in a brewery, under certain penalties. On the other hand, it was argued that the Bill would benefit even small brewers. The TRE ASURER said he did not propose to take the committal that night, having consented to put the matter off till next week. He would simply ask the House to carry the motion for committal that evening. The motion for committal was carried, one or two slight amendments being made. The Bill was then reported, and further consideration set down for Monday next. GOVERNMENT LOANS TQ LOCAL BODIES BILL. The TREASURER made a formal motion to the effect that a committee be appointed to inspect the Journals of the House, and ascertain. the proceedings in the Council in respect to that Bill. Carried. COUNTIES BILL, Consideration of amendments made in this Bill by the Legislative Council was set down for Monday next. NATIVE LAND COURTS BILL. The Legislative Council’s amendments to this Bill were also set down for consideration on Monday. JOINT LIBRARY COMMITTEE. The PREMIER brought up the report of the Committee on the management of the Library during the recess. Ordered that the report lie on the table. DECEASED PERSONS ESTATES DUTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was re-committed. A new clause was added, preventing the imposition of duties being retrospective. The Bill .was then read the third time and passed. LOAN BILL. A message was received from His Excellency the Governor recommending that L 175.000 should be added to the schedule of the Loan Bill -for expenditure on Middle Island rail- • ways. This Bill was further considered in Committee.
Schedule.—Mr Rolleston suggested that this should be reported. Major Atkinson moved to report progress, in order that he might make a motion that the debate be reported. Sir Julius Vogel pointed out that the discussion would have no end. In the discussion the other night, the hon member spoke about thirty times. If the discussion was reported, it was impossible to say how long it would last. Mr Wakefield supported the proposal to report the discussion. He accused the Government of trying to burke discussion. The Premier asked where reporting would stop ? This was not a taxation proposal. (Laughter.) He would point out that it was not a question of raising money. The expenditure would have to be discussed in Supply. In the course of a discussion which ensued Mr Turnbull remarked that Hansard would not be published for at least a fortnight. He added that the way in which the proceedings were reported in the local papers was quite a credit to them. Major Atkinson’s motion to report progress was lost by 37 to 33. The question was put that these words be added to the second schedule of the Bill, “Tobe appropriated for railways injthe Middle Island, £175,(100*' (moved by the Government). Major Atkinson twitted the_ Premier with the contrariness of his aotio.n in allowing the proposal to be made, The Premier, he said, had broken his word—he had lost his good name, which it would take him years to recover. Could they believe in the sincerity or the eloquence of the Premier? He asked the Government to say what lines they proposed to spend the money on ? Sir Robert Stout said the non gentleman’s anger was all put on. He ought to be thankful that the Government had not appropriated the money. The hon gentleman would not have objected if the expenditure was proposed for Native land purchases along the North Island trunk line. If the Government had the money in the chest in 1888 that would be all the better, and it might prevent borrowing as soon as would otherwise be necessary. He declined to say what the Government proposed to appropriate the money for. Major Atkinson said he was astonished at the Premier. Was he borrowing to keep money in the chest till 1888 ? The Premier had declared that “ he would be no party to borrowing for other than reproductive works—and that he would gradually taper off.” Now, it was apparent that another consideration than that of reproductive works was being taken into account. This was one of the most painful scenes he had ever seen in the House. (Mr Turnbull : You’re getting' very tender-hearted all at once.) Major Atkinson said he was jealous of any man’s honor. Going on, he said they must come to the conclusion that the money was not wanted for any works in the South Island—it was to be kept over. He would have agreed to the money being voted for Native land purchase if the Premier had recommended it. If the Government, on the other hand, said they could profitably spend it on lines in the South Island, he would agree to it. What he did want was that they should know what the money was being voted for, and that money should not be borrowed to put in the chest. .The Premier said the hon member surely would not say that there were not lines in the South Island that could not be profitably carried on. The position the Government took up was in the interest of economy—that was in not specifying the lines on which the money was to be spent. It was against the interest of economy to allot the money. He would point out, too, that it would be better to borrow in round numbers. Mr Sutter hoped that the amendment would be struck out. Mr Montgomery said they were going to borrow, and they did not know what for. That L 175,000 was “carrots.” (Laughter.) Think of the power it would give the Government. Mr Dargaville would like to propose that it be spent as follows : —LIOO.OOO for the purchase of Native lands, L50,0C0 for school buildings, and L 25,000 for the extension of the North of Auckland trunk line. A long discussion ensued. Mr Hursthouse said
it had been understood that the amount of the reduced schedule would be the amount of the loan. The Premier, by the action he had now taken, had lowered himself in the estimation of the country. Mr Moss quoted statistics to show that large loans had been floated in odd numbers. Mr Lake objected to the familiar cry of. North v. South Island being raised, and said he would support votes for reproductive works whether they were in North or South Island. Mr Samuel deprecated the party spirit infused into the discussion by Major Atkinson. He did not think there was any necessity to allocate the South Island alone. He did not think, however, that money should be borrowed beyond what the House specifically devoted to works. Mr Bryce said if anything occurred to shake the faith of the House in the pledge of Ministers, that would be a much greater calamity than the borrowing of L 175,000. The Treasurer quoted from the report in the New Zealand Times and that sent by. the Press Association to show that he had said that the amount of the schedule would be the amount of the loan. Colonel Trimble said all the papers in the Colony might agree, but that would not alter the facts of the case. Mr Kerr accused the North Island members of wanting to get the money for their districts. Mr Reid intended to vote against the insertion of this amount in the schedule. There had been a misapprehension as to the Treasurer’s statement, and that misapprehension was between two parties—the House on one side, and the Treasurer on the other. He (Mr Reid) was the member who put the question to the Treasurer which elicited the reply that the amount of th 6 schedule would be the amount of the loan (that is of clause 3, authorising the loan). The Treasurer was, however, going to nullify the action of the Committee in striking certain items out. He (Me Reid) would vote with the Government if they stated how they proposed to allocate the money, and if he thought the works were reproductive. Mr Ormond said the Treasurer qualified his statement by saying that the Government would bring down a proposal to make the amount to the million and a half. The Premier subsequently reiterated the statement without the qualification. Mr Ormond went on to say he disagreed with the action of the Government. He did not think they were justified in voting money which the Government would not allocate. Mr Fulton asked what was the use of a schedule at all if the loans were not to be ear-marked. He regretted that the debate had not been reported, in which case all the recrimination that had taken place would have been avoided. Sir Julius Vogel thought it was his duty to windup the debate (“ Oh ! ” and laughter). It had been clearly shown that there was no breach of faith, though the gentlemen who spoke of it had not had the good sense to apologise. The House the other night knocked out two items which were not intended to be expended this year—two items which did justice to two provinces that would otherwise not have been noticed. The Government proposed that the money should b 8 allocated to the Middle Island because that was the Island in which the money was proposed to be spent. Hon members now had the matter in their own hands. As to what work the Government would have to knock off he could not say. He pointed out that no colony kept so little loan money in hand as New Zealand. Those who wished to see borrowing discontinued they could now have a trial, though he feared the effect would be bad. He could not say what effect it might have. If hon members chose to take the responsibility on themselves in respect to the money, by refusing to allow the Government the opportunity of negotiating the loan and allocating it, the Government ■' could accept the fiat of the House, and alter the schedule and dispose of the Bill. Major Atkinson refused to accept any responsibility. If the Government wanted this money now they must have wanted it originally ; why, then, did they not say so at first. Sir Julius Vogel said you could not deal with public works fund and leave it bare. Mr J. B. Whyte said he did not think Major Atkinson should be surprised at the Government wanting to throw the responsibility on the committee, because, he explained, the Government would want something to act as Captain Russell s motion had acted—something that could be trotted out on every occasion where an explanation was necessary. Major Atkinson said the Treasurers’s argument went to show that the hon gentleman had calculated to get the whole loan as a balance. If the Government would say what they required for a working balance, and the amount was reasonable, he would support them in getting it. Dr Newman suggested that the question on what railways in the Sou’h Island the money should be spent should be referred to a Committee of North Island members. After some further discussion the question was put that the addition be made to the schedule. Ayes, 32 ; noes, 34. Motion lost. The schedule as amended (id est, with L 175,000 struck off the LI,503,000) was then agreed to. The Bill was reported with amendments. The TREASURER moved to recommit it for the purpose of reconsidering clause 3. Major ATKINSON asked whether the Government proposed to finish the Bill. The PREMIER : Yes.
Major ATKINSON thought it would be as well to leave the third reading till Monday.
The Bill was recommitted, and the amount in clause 3, authorising the loan, was altered from L 1,500,000 to L 1,325,000. The Bill having been reported, Sir JULIUS VOGEL said, on the motion that amendments in Committee be agreed to, tnat he would simply say that the reduction in the Bill would have a very disastrous effect on finance of the year. Major ATKINSON asked whether that was all the hon gentleman had to say. Had he no reasons to give ? Sir JULIUS VOGEL said the reduction would contract the expenditure, unless a loan was asked for next year or the North Island trunk line loan was used. The question would naturally arise what should be taken off next year. Major ATKINSON said they bad been told all along by the Premier that this money was not intended tor expenditure at all. Then, according to the Governor’s message, the money was not to be expended at all, but kept in the chest as a working balance till March, 1888. If the hon gentleman said he wanted a working balance, let him say so, and the Opposition would assist him in getting it. The hon member really told them now that he never meant a great deal of the expenditure that was asked in the schedule, but wanted it for a working balance. Major Atkinson went on to twit the Government with the changes they made, and said they would very soon have to doubt anything in connection with finance they told them. He protested against the North Island trunk line loan being used for other purposes, and would take care when the Bill was in committee to prevent the Government from doing anything of the kind wirh it. He contended that a clause in the Bill allowed the Treasurer to apply the whole money to general purposes under the loan schedule. He asked the Government to postpone the third reading o£ the
Bill, in order that this might be taken into cansideration by the law officers of the Crown. Mr J. B. WHYTE said it was stated that the Government conld have defeated Captain Russell’s motion last year had they been so disposed, and now history repeated itself, and as. the Government had been carrying everything by large majorities perhaps they jould also have carried the motion to-night had thev been so disposed. The Government wanted something to trot out as an excuse when they were asked for works. A more humiliating thing could not be imagined—Ministers pleading their own weakness. The Treasurer had called Major Atkinson a baby in finance. Well if the egregious blunder made by the Treasurer the other day was a sign of maturity or manhood, then he preferred the babies. (Laughter.)
Mr TURNBULL thought the Government were quite right in what they had done that night. He censured the action of the Opposition, and especially Major Atkinson, whose ruling passion, he said, was love of office, and who in 1879 had inflicted an enormous amount of harm on the Colony by the speech he made.
Mr HATCH said he must say a large number of North Island members had told him that they would not object to the money being voted if it was properly allocated. (Laughter.) Well, hon members might laugh, but he believed that. He pointed out that the Government could have allocated the money much better, and got it voted, too. The money could have been voted to the Otago Central, the Sumner line, Seaward Bush line, Catlin’s River line, Ocean Beach (Dunedin) line, and the Duntroon-Hakateramea line. It went against his conscience to vote with the Government in the last division, but as the money was voted for the South Island he did not care to oppose it. Mr MENTEATH said no one knew better than the leader of the Opposition that the Government could not allocate this particular portion of the loan, which had previously been territorially allocated, without losing a large section of their supporters. (Oh, oh ! and laughter.)
Mr MOSS said the hon member for Inangahua (Mr Menteath) had laid down a peculiar and new doctrine. He (Mr Moss) thought that to tell the Opposition that the Government would make to-night’s vote an excuse for their inability to do any works, was to treat hon members like children. Dr NEWMAN said it was a mis-statement of facts for the Treasurer to say his whole finances had been disarranged. If the Government chose to come down with a proper allocation of the amount they knew it would be agreed to. Mr REID was astonished at the action the Government had taken. He pointed out that the Government had brought in a Bill to ear-mark loans, and immediately made a proposal in another direction. The PREMIER thought it was a strange position to take up, to say that this L 175,000 should be allocated, while in former years millions had been voted without allocation. He thought those who had opposed the Government that night had put their feet into it—especially the member for Bruce (Mr Reid). After some further discussion the amendments were agreed to, and the House rose at a quarter past 2, the third reading b.-ing set down for Monday. MONDAY, AUGUST 2. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC, Various petitions, etc., were presented. MAGISTRATES COURTS BILL. Mr GARRICK asked the Minister of Justice, without notice, whether he intended to proceed with the Magistrates Courts Bill this session. The MINISTER said it had not been decided yet, but he was afraid that the Bill would have to be dropped. NATIVE LANDS ADMINISTRATION BILL. The NATIVE MINISTER said the amendments made in this Bill by the Legislative Council were large in number. Most of these were verbal amendments, which would make the Bill more workable. He would call the attention of the House to some of the amendments. Greater facility was given for obtaining signatures ; an assent to a sale or lease once given by the Committee could not be revoked ; the date up to wnicli shares in land could be acquired was extended to July; provision was made that where a person was in actual beneficial occupation of land, one third of the lease of which expired in July, 18S6, could claim a renewal for the whole or part of the land for not more than fourteen years. Various other amendments were explained by the hon gentleman. He moved that the amendments be agreed to. After some discussion the motion was agreed to. NATIVE LAND COURTS BILL. The NATIVE MINISTER moved that amendments made in the Legislative Council to this Bill be agreed to. A long discussion ensued. Mr J. W. THOMSON moved to exempt from the amendments agreed to clause 64, which had been so amended as to provide that lawyers may practice in Native land courts. The amendment of Mr Thomson was lost by 35 to 28, and the amendments made to the Bill were agreed to. DEEDS AND INSTRUMENTS REGISTRATION BILL. The TREASURER moved the second reading of this Bill, which was intended, he said, to provide facilities for registration of deeds and instruments in districts where at present difficulties were encountered. Mr SAMUEL pointed out that the registration of a deed was not at all a mechanical work, and that difficulties. might arise from it being entrusted to inexperienced persons. He was sorry that the Bill had been introduced. Mr STEWART opposed the Bill, which, he said, he looked on as a very mischievous one; Mr REID also objected to the Bill. Mr GUINNESS supported the Bill, and hoped that it would be applied to his district if not to any other. He would be prepared to make the Bill optional. The debate was interrupted at 5.39. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30, when the debate on the Deeds and Instruments Registration Bill was continued. Mr SUTTER spoke in support of the Bill. There would be no difficulty, he said, in carrying it out at Timaru, where such a law was wanted. It simply allowed agents to bo appointed by the Government who would act as a registrar. Mr TURNBULL said there was, he knew, a strong desire for such a Bill in Timaru, where the lawyers were in favor of it. The TREASURER, in reply, said the question embodied in this Bill had been brought before him. He referred it to the Registrar-General, who replied that the only clause which the Bill would conflict with was one which could be repealed. A division was taken on the question that the Bill be read a second time. Ayes, 49; noes, 10. RUB LIC TRUST OFFICE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The TREASURER moved the (second
reading of the Public Trust Office Act 1872 Amendment Bill. Its object was to add the Minister for Native Affairs and the SurveyorGeneral to the Board. He had received a memorandum from the Comptroller-General asking that. he should be removed from the Board. This request he had acceded to. Mr SAMUEL suggested that the Government should consider during the recess the advisability of changing the management of the office by which better local control could be obtained. The motion was agreed to. The ■ Bill was agreed to in Committee and read a third time and passed. BILLS IN THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. On the motion ot the TREASURER the names of Sir R. Stout and Mr Macarthur were removed from the committee appointed to search the Journals of the Legislative Council with respect to . the Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill, and - the names of Mr Ballance and Mr Conoily submitted. In answer Mr Seddon the MINES MINISTER said he would make a statement next day as to what would be done regarding the Gold Duty Reduction Bill. LOAN BILL. The TREASURER mo.ved the third reading of the Loan Bill. Major ATKINSON asked whether the Government would go on with the Bill in the absence of the Premier ? The TRE ASURER: Certainly. Major ATKINSON would have preferred the Premier being present, because he proposed to make some remarks about that. He (Major Atkinson) went on to say that the policy of this. Government had always been one of borrowing for railways and reproductive works. He referred to the large borrowing scheme which the Government talked of in the recess, and said it was not till the Opposition had spoken plainly that those schemes were abandoned. 'lhe Government told them that the loan was to be ear-marked and secured, as the North fsland trunk line was also to be secured. The LBOO,OOO was to be applied to land purchases and general purposes. The Government, however, had found that the LSOO,OQO would not go as far as they thought, and the proposals were made to buy rails and rolling-stock and Native land out of the North Island line loan. A.nd for next year there was no money asked for land purchases. The present loan (the million and a half), was to be used for railway purposes, but now they found that about £600,000 of it was given to works clearly chargeable on the £BOO,OOO. This was due to the Treasurer’s blunder regarding the liabilities, which the Government did not attempt to defend now. No definite information was given whether the lines for which votes were asked would pay. Then was the Premier fulfilling his pledges of economy, and tapering off ? The Opposition, looking at the lines proposed. found that with regard to two of them, even Government supporters might be indueed to vote against them. When that motion came down which the Government defeated, by making it a no-confidence motion. During the debate on it the Premier asked the House how it was, if they were sincere, that they had not reduced the vote, instead of applying money from one vote to another. But when the House proceeded to do that he said it was against the interests of the Colony. Thu Government wanted the money so as to have it in hand in March, 1838. The Treasurer took a different line, and said “The Government must have this money or the finances of the Colony would be disarranged. If it was refused he would throw the responsibility on. the House.” Then he said “If you strike this amount out I shall have to do one of three things—l shall have to ask for a fresh loan next year, or use part of the North Island trunk line loan, or contract expenditure.” The hon gentleman wanted. a stalking horse like Captain Russell’s motion last year ; but althou.-h he said the action of the House would be fatal, there he sat, quite content. He (Major Atkinson) wanted to knowhow the striking out of the L 175.000 could disarrange the finances. It would have been impossible to use this money for general works, because it was specially provided in the Bill that the votes must be applied to the purposes for which they were voted. Then what bad effect had the elimination of the vote on the general finances? It could not, and the House could only look on it as a threat held out for some unfathomable reason. If they had got into the position that the non-expenditure of L 90.000 a year had such a bad effect, it was time it was known in London. Why, such a statement made in London would harm the Colony ranch more than the statements the Treasurer often complained of. In conclusion, Major Atkinson said it was clear the Premier did not know what was going on with the finances. He thought the Treasurer should tell the House what the Government proposed to do for works next year. A loan would -be necessary next year, the Treasurer said, but the Premier would not have it, and had laughed when he (Major Atkinson) said a loan would be necessary. Mr WAKEFIELD said he held different views on this question to those held by many. He had opposed every loan that had been proposed since he had been in the House, and he intended to vote against this Bill. He considered that most of the difficulties they now had to encounter arose from the Public Works policy of 1870. The consequence of that scheme was that ten years after its enunciation the Colony was plunged into the most serious depression it had ever known. The Colony was in such a position that it had to go on borrowing. By the Bill now before the House they would add L 60,000 a year to the permanent charges of the Colony, while they were told that the consolidated revenue would be LIOO.OOO deficient this year. Where was there provision made for this extra charge ? Yet the Treasurer told them in his statement that he had more revenue than he knew what to do with, and asked them to reduce taxation. He (Mr Wakefield) denied that it would be disastrous to stop borrowing. He did not agree that it would be disastrous to reduce public works. If to-morrow public works we?e stopped the people would apply themselves to other pursuits, and. consequently more money and more labor would be applied to reproductive wocksi With regard to the Government, Mr Wakefield expressed admiration of-the patriotic-sentiments expressed by the Premi-r, but said he did not act up to them. The Government, he said, had. simply pursued the old, bad policy of bribing localities with public works.. He blamed other Governments for the- same thing, but thought this Government had had an especially good chance of avoiding this policy. He asked whether there were more than one- oitwo of the lines in the schedule that were necessary or would pay. There was the Hamilton-Grahamstown line. Fifty thousand pounds had been spent on it, and. not a locomotive was running on it. He deplored the passage of the Bill in its present shape. Borrowing had been the curse of the Colony, and had had a most demoralising effect. There were properties in this Colony to the of over 1/209,000 held by loan companies. Furl her, borrowing had led to a . loss of independence and thrift, and had raised , a higher standard of living than people cov-ld [ afford. He moved that the BRI be read a, ihi?d time that day aix montbsu
Sir GEORGE GREY made a personal explanation. It had been stated that he had laid he hoped the time would never come when the Colony would cease borrowing. What he meant was borrowing in the Colony, Mr JOYCE likened Mr Wakefield to a Cassandra in trousers, which characrer, he said, the hon gentleman was always successful in. He (Mr J oyce) combatted the argument that the Colony would be in a better position now had it not been for the public works scheme. When borrowing ceased taxation would be increased. Mr W. E. BUCKLAND said Cassandra prophesied what was true, but was never believed. The bon member for Selwyn was in the same position. „ Mr HUR6THOUSE said the House was making a new departure not warranted in ns rail way policy. Many of the railwayswoula not be reproductive for a long time. He had heard many say that borrowing must be continued, but be had not heard any good reason for that. He thought everyone must acknowledge that the position now_ was not what the present Treasurer prophesied in IU/U. J.ne railway policy had gone beyond the Coior.y s demand, and this present departure meant incurring a liability of six or eight millions. He had held for years that railways should be made in their order of merit. Fragmentary construction of railways had been the Colony s misfortune; and while he had every confidence in the future of the Colony, he was apprehensive of the consequences of such a system. Mr PEACOCK said he had expressed the opinion on a former occasion, that a considerable portion of this loan should be set aside for general works. He accused the Government of vacillation regarding loans. He believed the Treasurer would have to ask for a loan next year for general purposes, ami he thought the hon gentleman should at once face the position. He would support the third reading of the Bill, but disapproved of the arrangement of the schedule. Mr MOSS said he could hardly help asking himself 41 Is Saul, too, among th© prophets?’ when he heard Mr Hursthouae- express such sentiments as he did just before. He {Mr Moss) was disposed to be very cheerful now, for he had seldom heard a debate more calculated to inspire hope. He ascribed the E resent position to the system of bribery which ad gone on since 1876, when the people were bribed to surrendi r their liberty of Self-Govern-ment. Until they found a Government bold enough to face the position they would have to go on as the present Government .was doing. Ho sympathised with the views of Mr Wakefield, but did not think there was any hope of stopping borrowing under the present circumstances. Unless local bodies were strengthened and enabled to do the work which the Government was going to do no longer, it was no use talking about borrowing for railways only. Mr O'CONOR would have liked to see this loan borrowed for the purpose of purchasing land along the line of our railways. That, he believed, was the way to make railways reproductive. He, at least, disbelieved in spending money on reproductive works. Dr NEWMAN said the real position was this —that they would always have to borrow, but the question was whether they should borrow for reproductive or unreproductive works. The Government’s policy of trunk and paying lines when they came into office was a good one, but it had been emphatically ignored in all subsequent Public Works Statements. The Wellington and Hawkes Bay railway was an instance of that. This was a line against which no member had spoken; it was a line that paid well, but it would not be completed for two years at least. He thought the Colony was going too far ahead id the matter of railways. England had 52 mile 3 of railway to every 100,000 ot the population, the greater part of Europe 63 miles, the United States 210 miles, and New Zealand 281 miles. Mr HOBBS complained of the action of the Government regarding the North of Auckland line. He thought the Government, instead of putting little branch lines up all over the Colony, should come down with a definite scheme for the construction of main trunk lines. Mr MONTGOMERY expressed an opinion that it was in the mind of the Government to borrow L 1,000,000 next year. They need not go on to the market for it next year, because they could anticipate it. He hoped that the Treasurer, in replying, would say what the intention of the Government was. He (Mr Montgomery) was in favor of completing main lines rather than spending money on a little piece here and a little piece there. He referred to the falling off in the railway revenue, and said it was pertinent to the subject before the House, seeing that they were about to vote money for small lines. He disapproved of the schedule of the Bill, and said that while it would b 9 unwise to cease borrowing all at once, they might “ taper off ” —which they were not doing now. However, he hoped that the Public Works Estimates would be considerably reduced. He agreed with the policy the Premier spoke of—the policy of “ tapering off” —but thought they might commence at once. The Government were not doing that; and he believed they would come down next year and say either we can stop works or have a loan of a million. Mr BRYCE replied to the arguments of the members of the Government who had replied to him when the second reading of the Bill was before the House. With regard to the Treasurer’s remarks as to him {Mr Bryce) going into Parihaka on horseback, he severely censured the hon rentleman for the sneer he had made. He accused the Government . of showing a desire to prevent the debate being reported. They had, he said, paraded their own humility during the recess by quoting Captain Russell’s motion, which they nad accepted, and after the passing of which they still held their seats. If they quoted the reduction in this Loan Bill in a similar way, then they would be again parading their humility, because they retained office now. He considered the Government had led the House astray by leading hon members to believe that they would reduce the loan,- as the schedule was reduced. Mr Bryce went on to deal with the question of borrowing. He expressed an opinion that the increasing burden of interest would involve increased taxation. He was going to support such a policy of economy as that laid down by the Premier the other night if the hon gentleman would only stick to his principles. In conclusion, the hon gentleman said he could no; support the amendment because that would lead to disaster. He would support the Bill because he thought it was impossible to suddenly stop borrowing ; but if a modified proposal were made he would support it. Colonel TRIMBLE criticised the action of the Government in connection with the loans at some length, Mr G. F. RICHARDSON said a misapprehension had arisen regarding his amendment. His reason for making the amendment was because the moneys could not be re-allo-cated in committee. The object of the amendment was to prevent the construction of political railways, and he considered he had done more damage to the Government than if they had accepted it. He denied that he had been
“put up” by Major Atkinson to move the amendment, which, he thought, showed the authorship from top to bottom. He had carried almost the same motion at a meeting of Otago members early in the session. The question was then put that the Bill be “ now ” read a third time.
AYes, 55. —Allwright, Ballance, Beetham, Bevan, Bradshaigb-Bradshaw, Brown Bruce, Buchanan, Conolly, Cowan, Dodson, Duncan, Fraser, Garrick, Grace, Guinness, Hakuene, Harper Hatch, Hislop, Hobbs, Ivess, Johnston, Joyce, Lake, Lance, Larnacb, Locke, Macarthur, J. McKenzie, McMillan, Moss, Newman, O’Callaghan, Ormond, Peacock, Pearson, Pere, Pratt, Reese, Reid, E. Richardson, Russell, Samuel, Seddon, Smith, W. J. Steward, W. D. Stewart, Taylor, T. Thompson, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel, Walker, Wilson. Noes, 7. —Hamlin, H. Hir3fc, Hursthouse, Kerr (teller), Levestam, O’Conor, Wakefield. On the question that the Bill pass. The TREASURER said that in view of the desire that the session should not be prolonged he would not reply to the speeches which had been made. He would simply say with regard to the North Island Trunk Line Loan that at the proper time an explanation would be made, which would satisfy hon members interested.
The Bill was then finally passed. The House rose at 12.40. TUESDAY, AUGUST 3. The House met at 2 30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc. were presented. ROYAL ASSENT. A message was received announcing that the Governor’s assent had been given to certain Acts. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. The report of the committee appointed to search the Journals of the Legislative Council with regard to the proceedings in regard to this Bill, was read. The TREASURER intimated that he would bring down the Bill ty message next day, and he hoped the House would pass it through its stages. GOLD DOTY REDUCTION BILL. The MINES MINISTER gave notice to move fora committee to inspect the Journals of the Legislative Council wilh regard to this Bill. JOINT LIBRARY COMMITTEE. The MINISTER of LANDS moved that the report of this Committee be agreed to. Mr MaCANDREW suggested that the Library should be open to all members of the House during the recess. Major ATKINSON quite sympathised with the hon gentleman, and thought the books should be made of some use to the present generation. He saw no reason why members should not have the opportunity of taking books out of the library during the recess. He moved to refer the report back to the Committee in order that this matter might be considered. Mr MACANDREW moved that it be a recommendation to the committee to frame regulations for lending books to members of the Legislature during the recess. Mr BEETHAM suggested that something should be done with a view of giving greater facilities to residents of Wellington for using these books. Colonel TRIMBLE objected to the amendment, and pointed out that a number of books had already been lost. Dr NEWMAN, as a member of the Recess Committee, thought a system could be arranged by which books could be more widely lent than they were at present. Mr Macandrew’s amendment was carried on the voices. QUESTIONS. The MINES MINISTER, in answer to Mr Macandrew, said the Government had considered the advisability of establishing a monthly steam service to the West Coast of Otago, and if it could be done for anything like a reasonable cost the Government would consider the matter during the recess. The DEFENCE MINISTER, in answer to Mr T. Thompson, said the Government were not prepared to place a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for capitation allowance to honorary Volunteer corps. The MINISTER of LANDS, in answer to Mr Taylor, said the Government had set aside large areas of land in Canterbury for village Battlement. The PUBLIC WORKS MINISTER, in answer to Mr Guinness, said he had given instructions to his department that skilled labor was to be paid for at ordinary current rates, but that as regards unskilled labor 6s a day was to be given to all men subsequently employed. 'Mhe MINISTER of JUSTICE, in answer to Mr Beetham, said the Government would consider the advisability of providing funds for payment of defendants and witnesses in criminal cases before the Supreme Court. He thought concessions might be made where the Cise was one of special hardship. The TREASURER, in answer te Mr Beetham, said he thought the question of providing a portrait gallery in the Parliamentary buildings was one for the consideration of the Speakers in the first place. He agreed that it would be desirable to have the portraits, for he had remarked only recently, that it would be difficult to find anywhere a hundred gentlemen amongst whom there was so many strikingly handsome. (Laughter.) Mr REID a«ked the Minister, for Public Works, Whether, prior to the division on the motion to add to the schedule of the Loan Bill L 175,000 for railway works in the South Island he promised, or led any member of the House to believe that, in the event of the motion being carried, the said sum of L 175.000 would be expended in part construction of the Midland Railway, if the English Company failed to "o on with tne contract ? The MINISTER of PUBLIC WORKS, in reply, said if he had heard the statement made he should have contradicted it at once. There was no truth in it. Mr J. C. BUCKLAND asked the Government, If they have entered into any correspondence or negotiation with any member of this House for the issue of debentures under section 25 of the District Railways Purchasing Act, 1885 ; and if so, with whom? The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS soid he believed theie were two members of the House who had made such negotiatl°Mr J. C. BUCKLAND asked the Govern ment. If their attention has been directed to the extravagant travelling expenses allowed to certain members’ wives and niembers in connection with attending Parliament during the sessions of 18S4-85 ; and will they, in future, take steps to prevent similar occurrences ? The THEASURER : I have asked my colleagues. They know nothing about it. Nor do I " Mr asked the Speaker, If it is true that an honorable member has made a charge of about L4O for travelling expenses in connection with his attendance in Parliament in the session of 1885 ; and, if so, does the Speaker mean to give a certificate for payment of the same ? ... Mr SPEAKER said it was not true that L4O had been charged. A charge of L 39 had been made for conveyance of two members
from Springfield to Hokitika. It was disallowed, and a charge of L 7 10s each allowed. With regard to the previous question he might say that he had never noticed any extravagant items being charged for travelling expenses. Mr BUCKLAND quoted one or two items, Mr SPEAKER said he would be glad if the hon member would privately direct his attention to the items. Mr O’CALLAGHAN asked the Government, Whether they intended in future to continue the system hitherto adopted, by which the northern portions of the. Colony have been entitled to obtain the consideration of the House for proposed votes in the Public Works expenditure before the other parts of MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said the suggestion was a very valuable one, which he had not thought of befo-e, and he would consider it. GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION BILL.’ This Bill was received by message from the Governor, with a recommendation to make provision for it. .... , , The TREASURER said this’Bill superseded the one now on the Order Paper, and he moved that the latter be discharged. The message was considered in committee of the whole, and the Bill was read the first time in the House. LOCAL BODIES FINANCE AND POWERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was also received by message, and read the first time. MOTION. Mr MOSS moved that the correspondence between the local authorities in Auckland and the Government, and the Chairman of a meeting of the unemployed in Auckland and the Government, with any other information the Government may have as to the nature and extent of the distress in Auckland, be laid before this House. Carried. FISHERIES CONSERVATION BILL. The MARINE MINISTER moved the committal of this Bill. After some discussion it was decided, on the motion of Major Atkinson, to adjourn the debate till Thursday. NORTH ISLAND MAIN TRUNK RAILWAY LOAN APPLICATION BILL. This Bill was committed. Clause 3—Loan to be carried to separate account. Mr Peacock asked whether this would mean that the loan would be kept exclusively for the purpose for which it was voted. Ihe Colonial Treasurer said no one had taken more pains to preserve this loan for the purpose for which it was voted than he had. When the attention of the Government was turned to the loan after last session, they made great sacrifices in not using It. The Government would take care that the loan should be devoted to the railway alone. As regarded the clause dealing with the land grant, that would rest with the discretion of the House. He had only to say this, that if the clause was knocked out it would reduce the amount available for general purposes —that was to say, the amount, instead of being charged to this loan, would have to be charged to general purposes, and would make the amount available for this year so much less. Were he a North Island member, he should say no Government ever offered such a boon to the North Island as this endowment of land. They might laugh ; but five years hence, if they threw out the clause (relating to devoting LIOO.OOO for land purchase), they would look very foolish. The land would be worth a million of money. They were going to open up a large tract of land, which would one day have members in the House, who would look very foolish if they were reminded of the endowments they might have had. The Government, he pointed out, placed the endowment freely for the purpose of the railway, and did not even charge interest on it. Hon members who in some years hence would ask for roads, &c. in that district, would feel very foolish if , they were reminded that they could have had such an endowment. He believed it was desirable that this land should be set apart for the benefit of the line, and the Government, in taking their present action were doing what seemed to have been done with other lines. If the Committte chose to repeat the proposal they could do so ; but he again repeated that the Government proposed to reserve the money especially for the purpose proposed. Major Atkinson failed to understand the hon gentleman’s speech, or what right the Government had to offer an endowment to a particular locality. He complained that the Government would not give them a definite scheme on any question. If the North Island trunk line was to be endowed, why not the Otago Central and other lines? It was clear that the Government had not quite considered the question—the Treasurer had even forgot to make provision for buying this land. He could see no good in the proposal, and should oppose it. He moved to report progress, in order that the debate might be reported in committee. Mr Macarthur said he was willing to accept the responsibility of voting against the proposal, The Colonial Treasurer said there was nothing to be gained by reporting the discussion. Mr Dargaville said he would vote with Major Atkinson on this question. The Treasurer said he would accept the motion, and make a short statement at 7.30, when the Committee resumed after dinner. The 5.30 adjournment was then taken.
EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Progress having been reported on the North Island Main Trunk Railway Loan Application Bill, ___ . . ~ Sir JULIUS VOGEL, in moving the recommittal of the Bill, the statement he had made in committee in the afternoon. He pointed out the advantages which would accrue to the district if the £IOO,OOO for purchase of land was agreed to, and said if the House refused to authorise it, then the responsibility would rest upon hon members. In that case the Government would accept the vote, and would have to find the money out of the general Public Works fund. He repudiated the assertion that the Government was not sincere in wishing to devote the loan to the purpose for which it was raised. Major ATKINSON again said that the Treasurer had not represented the true state of the finances when he referred to the question of the LIOO.OOO. As to his taking credit for not having used this loan for other purposes, he (Major Atkinson) could not give him any credit for that, but he thought rather it should he only in case of dire necessity that he should have used it. There could have been no object whatever in using this loan, and it would be in direct opposition to the wishes of the House. There could also be no excuse for raising the loan at the time stated by the Treasurer, as the money was not required at that time. He contended that the House should demand from the Treasurer as to what he intended to do for the two years. All he had asked for was to give him sufficient for the present year. He deprecated the manner in which the Treasurer had appealed to the selfishness of the North Island members by holding out the bait he had done, that this land would be a great boon to them. If he (Major Atkinson) were convinced that by obtaining this land it would assist in the •olonisation of the country he should have
heartily supported it. The House should not consent to provide any sum for purchase of Native lands this year except they had some decided statement from the Treasurer. He said the Treasurer had not shown sufficient reason for this request, and the House should pause before agreeing to this special appropriation. They should also be told how the Treasurer was going to settle that country. There was no provision at all for making roads, and to say that the land was sufficient to provide for such purposes as this was simply to deceive the House. Mr PEACOCK reminded the House that Sir Julius Vogel had recently stared that if LIOO 000 for purchase of Native lands was not agreed to he would abandon the Bill, but they were now told that if the LIOO.OOO were refused he should have to take it from the Public Works fund. He (Mr Peacock was glad to hear that statement. His principal objection to this proposal was that this money having been granted for one purpose, should not be devoted to another. If they took LIOO.OOO there was no reason why they should not take a million. Dr NEWMAN said the figures of the Treasurer were utterly absurd. He had talked of a magnificent endowment to be purchased with this LIOO.OOO, whereas a clause in the Bill said that all that was to be set apart should be percent., or a magnificent sum of L 2500 for an endowment. Mr TAYLOR said the last speaker could not have read the clause. He thought it was pure waste of time for members to speak on what they did not understand. Mr BRUCE said those who knew the country knew the endowment would not serve the purposes which the Treasurer had stated it would, and he should oppose the clause. Mr MONTGOMERY also thought the endowment would not come up to the expectation of the Treasurer. He contended they should not take a single shilling from the million that had been voted for making this railway. If they wanted to purchase the land, they should do it by other means, and if roads were required, let them borrow money to construct them. He should vote against the proposal to take this LIOO.OOO, and he hoped if the Treasurer could show that LBOO,OOO was.in hand for general purposes (which Major Atkinson said did not exist) he would do so, or if he had not sufficient to go on with the amount required, should be borrowed in a straightforward manner. Mr MACARTHUR pointed out that the Bill did not tie up the loan for a special purpose as was stated by the Treasurer. There were several other purposes referred to in the Bill for which the loan could be spent, namely, survey, rolling stock, and purchase of Native lands. It was well-known that a great deal of the land that was being negotiated for was of a very inferior character, and would be of no use as an endowment. He should oppose diverting this money from the purpose for which it was specially intended. Mr SUTTER hoped the discussion would be allowed to close, and that the Bill would go into committee.
Mr KERR thought as all the Opposition members were taking part in the debate it was time some of the Government supporters spoke. He combatted Major Atkinson’s remarks on the Bill, and referred to his care for Taranaki district. He thought Mr Montgomery would not care if twenty millions were borrowed so long as he were Colonial Treasurer. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND said there was nothing in the present Bill to tie up tho loan for the North Island line. There was nothinsr whatever in the Bill to prevent them from amending it next year in the same manner as the Act of 1882 had been amended. He contended that the Bill was really one for taking L3OO, TOO from the North Island trunk line and spending it for other purposes. That was the Treasurer's way of ear-marking the loan.
Sir J. VOGEL twitted Me Montgomery with having come down with a great borrowing policy, as he had just advocated borrowing for roads and surveys, and he thought he would shortly come to borrowing for railways. As for the remarks of the hon member for Egmont about this endowment, that hon gentleman had not always been so sensitive on this point. Had he refused, for instance, 25 per cent of the Land Fund for the New Plymouth Harbor. He referred to the arguments of the various speakers, and said the hon member for Egmont never got up without insulting the Goverement; yet when he (Sir J. Vogel) retaliated it was at once said that he treated his opponents too badly. As for himself, the way he had stood the attacks made upon him by Major Atkinson and other members during the session had astonished himself. He wished to say he did not claim any particular virtue for not having used the North Island loan, and Major Atkinson’s remarks showed either great ignorance of the whole subject or else he was wilfully deceiving the House. He could only say that if the princely endowment contemplated by this Bill were rejected by the House they would only regret it once, and that would be always. The question was then put that the House go into committee on the Bill presently, which was agreed to. Major ATKINSON moved that the proceedings in committee on this Bill be reported in Hansard. He said this practice was followed in committee of supply, and he should like to see the rule established that all questions relating to money matters should he reported in committee, as those questions were of great public interest. Sir J. VOGEL raised a point of order as to whether after the question was put for going into committee a motion of this kind could be made. He pointed out also that Hansard was under the control of the House, and that this order could not be made without notice. The SPEAKER said there was no particular point of order which he had to decide. The proceedings in committee would have been reported in the ordinary course had it not been for what appeared to him was the weakness of the hon member for Egmont in moving the motion he had, and thus putting it in the power of the House to decide the matter. Sir JULIUS VOGEL thought there was no necessity whatever for the proceedings being reported. The question wa3 then put that the proceedings be reported in Hansard, and the House divided. Ayes, 33 ; noes, 41. Motion lost.
The House went into committee on the Bill. A lengthy discussion ensued on clause 4, relating to surveys and rolling stock. Mr Sutter moved that subsection 5 of the clause (referring to LIOO.OOO being set apart ifor the purchase of Native lands) be struck out. The amendment was lost by 34 to 30, and the subsection retained.
The question was put that the subsection stand part of the Bill. AYES, 34. —Messrs Ballance, Bsvan, Brad-shaigh-Bradshaw, Brown, Cadman, Cowan, Duncan, Garrick, Gore, Guinness, Hakuene, Harper, Hatch, Ivess, Joyce, Kerr, Larnacb, Levestam, Macandrew, J. McKenzie, McMillan, Menteath, O’Conor, Pere, Pratt, Reid, E. Richardson, Smith, W. D. Stewart, Taylor, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel. Noes, 30. —Atkinson, Barron, Beetham, Bruce, Bryce, Buchanan, W. F. Buckland, Conolly, Dodson, Grey, Johnston, Lake,
Locke, Macarthur, Mitch slson, Moat, Mont* gomery. Moss, Newman, Ormond, Peacock, G. F. Richardson, Ross. Russell, Sutter, Te Ao, T. Thompson, Trimble, Wakefield, Whyte. Pairs. —For : Sir R. Stout, Messrs Lance, Holmes, Scobie Mackenzie, Reese, - W. J. Steward, Pearson, and Seddon. Against : Messrs Rolleston, Fulton, Hirst. Dargaville, Wilson, Hobbs, Fergus, and J. W. Thomson. Clause 5, providing how land reserved for the railway may be dealt with. Major Atkinson moved that the clause be struck out. He characterised it as a preposterous proposal, and he hoped the House would reject it by a large majority. Sir Julius Vogel said Major Atkinson was guilty of a breach of faith by making this motion. He pointed out that that kind. of endowment wa3 frequently given to private institutions, and he saw no reason why it should not be given in this case. Mr Wakefield said there was a great difference. between private institutions and this railway. The railway was provided for by law, and did not require such au endowment, whereas private institutions were in a very different position. He could not see what sense there was in making an endowment for a railway that the Treasurer said wa-s amply provided for by other means. Mr Barron sa dit was the Treasurer who was guilty of a breach of faith. He said this laud belonged to the Colony in the ordinary way, and it should not he set aside in this manner. Mr Moss hoped the Treasurer would not insist on this clause. He moved, as an amendment, that those blocks of land be set apart from time to time as. the General Assembly might dii'ect. Mr Fulton asked whether the Treasurer would be willing to extend this concession to other railways ? There were other lines—the Otago Central, for instance—to which the proposal for setting apart a million of acre 3 as an endowment would be very beneficial. Mr Kerr spoke in favor of the clause. After some further discussion the clause was agreed to by 2S to 20. The Bill having been reported, was read the third time and passed. REGULATION OF DEEDS. AND INSTRUMENTS BILL. This Bill was committed. A short discussion took place upon it, in the course of which Mr Conolly said it was useless to attempt to deal with the Bill, for the Treasurer, though he himself commenced libel actions all over the country, always ascribed some dirty motive to anyone who attempted 'to amend the Bill. The Treasurer protested that he had not ascribed such motives. The Bill was agreed to without amendment, reported, and read the third time and passed. BEER DUTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. A new clause was introduced by Sir J. Vogel, preventing any. person from carrying on in a brewery the business of aerated water or cordial manufacturing,. or bottling of any kindi The clause to come into force in a year after the passing of the Act. Mr Buchanan opposed the clause, and called for a division on the question that it be read tlie second time, Ayes, 25 ; noes, 10. The clause was agreed to, and the Bill, having been reported, was read the third time and passed. The House rose at 12.55.
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. QUESTIONS. Mr FULTON asked the Government, When the Taieri County. Treasurer may expect to receive the subsidies due, it being alleged that there has been paid only 75 per cent, on the amount of rates cn the outlying districts, and nothing whatever on the rates of the Road Board districts ? The TREASURER said the matter was a departmental one, and he would like the hon member to write him a letter upon it. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to Mr O’Callaghan, said he would arrange for the unemployed to be paid weekly instead of fortnightly if it would not iuvolveadditional expense. Mr MOSS asked the Minis'er of NativeAffairs, Whether, before leasing reserves administered by Government for the Natives,, it has been customary to consult the Natives interested, in order to ascertain whether they wished to lease such reserves, or to keep them, or any of them, for their own use ? The MINISTER said that as regarded the West Coast reserves it had been the practice for tome time to obtain the consent of the Natives interested. There were large areas of land yet to be let there. The consent of, at any rate, the leading chiefs was always obtained before leasing. The TREASURER, in answer to Mr Seddon, said the Government v/ould inquire whether an additional supply of copies of the Education Statement could be obtained for distribution amongst School Committees and Education Boards. BILLS INTRODUCED. The Special Powers and Contracts Bill was introduced and read the first time, and the second reading set down for next day. The Settled Land Bill (passed by the Legislative Council) was also introduced and read the first time. GOLD DUTV REDUCTION BILL. A Committee was appointed to inspect the Journals of the Legislative Council regarding the proceedings on this Bill, and to report to the House. STRUCK OFF. The TREASURER moved to strike off the following orders of the day : Resident Magistrates Court Bill, Adjourned deba-te on amendment of the Standing Orders, Alienation of Land Bill, Stock Driving Bill, Codim Moth Act Amendment Bill, and Workmen’3 Wages Act Extension Bill. Carried. Mr O’CALLAGHAN moved that the Walmate Village Settlement Bill (Major Steward’s) be discharged from the Order Paper. He explained that. he. intended to brim* forward a motion on going into Supply, to effect the object of the Bill. In the course of a discussion which ensued, Mr SUTTER expressed surprise that Major Steward had brought forward this Bill, which affected Mr Studholme, a gentleman concerned in the Waimate railway. Mr Studholme guaranteed Major Steward's overdraft at the hank, and there was no doubt a commission sticking out. Mr FULTON pointed out that several hon members would adopt the same course as that now adopted, if they were able to do so. The TREASURER said, the Government were in no way connected with or supporting the motion. , . , . Mr O’CALLAGHAN replying, denied thair he was moving particularly in regard to this block, hut in the interest of village settlements generally. The motion to discharge the order was lost. RABBIT ACT AMMENDMENT BILL. The MINISTER of JUSTICE moved the second reading of this Bill which, he said, .gave effect to the report of the Rabbit Committee, recently presented. Mr COWAN said the Bill was a machinery Bill. He referred to the magnitude of the rabbit pest, and quoted figures in that connection. , .. Mr W. C. BUCHANAN supported the Bjll.
Mr LAKE thought the section levying a rate on stock was an unfair on. He as teed whether it was the intention to still allow absentee owners’ land to act as breeding places for rabbits, and not be taxed. The TREASURER said he could-not help thinking the committee had failed to deal with the question of eradicating the pest. . .With regard to the suggestion thAt the natural enemies of rabbits should be introduced, he thought that would entail a greater evil than at present existed, and .lie pointed --out that .from a scientific point of view the natural enemy of the rabbit was the fox. He thought tho best course would be to get some capable person to go into the question scientifically with a view to ascertaining whether rabbits could not be better destroyed by disease than c by poison There was a gentleman now in Auckland skilled in investigating cause. 3 of disease. He (Sir Julius Vogel) was not opposing the Rill, but was making remarks with a view to encouraging some such in- - veatigation as he had alluded to. Mr LANCE, as a member of the Committee, said the Committee agreed with what the Treasurer said. He suggested that stoats and weasels should not be imported at present, but that ferrets should be used, because they were known to be injurious to nothing. Mr J. McKENZIE did not think the Bill carried out the rec .mmendations of the Committee, and should oppose it in Committee if it was not altered. Mr G. F. RICHARDSON took a similar view of the Bill, and suggested that counties and County Councils should be substituted for rabbit districts and rabbit trustees. At present, (lie said, the Colony was a perfoc Paradise for returning office's.
After some further discussion, The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in reply, said he would revise the Bill before it was committed, and he would be glad to receive suggestions. The motion for second reading was carried. DISTRICT RAILWAYS PURCHASING- ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in moving the second reading-of this Bill, said papers had been laid on the table showing what correspondence has taken place regarding the purchase by the Government of the Waimea Plains Railway. The matter had this session been referred to the Public Accounts Committee, which reported in favor of the purchase. The line was constructed by a private company to open up a large block of land well fitted for cultivation. The line, he said, had cost the company altogether about BIOS,OOO. The hon gentleman’s explanation of expenditure, &c,, was inaudible. _ He went on to say that the purchase of the line would relieve a large number of people. Mr MONTGOMERY reviewed the evidence taken before the Public Accounts Committee on this line, by which, he said, it was shown that the commercial value of the line to the country was L 97.000, and the total amount to be given by the Colony for it LIIO,OOO. The object of the Bill was to relieve the ratepayers. from whom only one-half the rates were to be collected, the Government paying the other half. L3OOO was paid to relieve the ratepayers. Whether the Government should do that was a question for the House to consider. But lie believed that pressure-would be brought to bear which would prevent the Government from getting the rates. Tho usnal adjournment was taken at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Mr COWAN resumed the debate on the second reading of the District Railways Purchasing Act Amendment Bill. The cash price of the railway, he said, was not to be LllO,ooo as Mr Montgomery had appeared to convey. The question of whether or not the House should relieve the ratepayers, he said that had already been fixed by Act of the Legislature. • Adding the amount of rates due to the Company to Mr O’Conor’s (the Under-Secretary) valuation of construction, they had a sum of Xi 112,000. Mr Cowan went on to quote fromthe evidence of Mr Maxwell and Mr O’Conor, \by which, lie said, it was shown that the line would be worth LIOOO a year to the Government, and that the total value of the line was over L 120,000. In answer to the suggestion that renewals would cost a great deal, he remarked that the sum of L 2459 was spent for maintenance during the last year. It was a most unfortunate thing that the New Zealand Agricultural Company was one of the largest debtors. He hoped the House would look at this matter from a fair point of view, and do the people of this district the justice which had been done to others. Mr MONTGOMERY remarked that Mr O’Oonors estimate of the value of the line was based upon the supposition that the Government could collect the L15.C00 outstanding rates.
Mr PEACOCK said. Mr O'Conor said that the commercial value of the line was L 97,000, but adding LSOOO to represent a liability which the Government at present had on the line, the line would be worth L 102,000. The Government proposed to give for the line LIIO,OOO, which really meant LSOOO more when the liabilities which tho Government had to incur were considered. Mr SUTTER asked whether the House was going to relieve the Agricultural Company of the money it owed. The Government, he said, was asked to give L 124 000 for th 9 railway. He should move in committee to strike out clause 7, relating to payments in cash for the line. Colonel TRIMBLE said they were really paying L 128.000 for the line, which would not yield more than L2OOO a year at 1-J per cent. He looked on it as a most extravagant proposal. , . Dr NEWMAN said the Directors of the Company owning the rail way had been playing “ bluff.” He was prepared to support the purchase of the line, but did not approve of the terms of the Bill. The Directors, he thought, would have taken L 102,009 if it had being put to them as against non-purchase ; and anything over L 102.000 was. a godsend and a windfall to them. He disapproved, however, of giving a premium on insurance debentures to the Company, which was equivalent to an extra LSOOO.
Mr WILSON would be quite willing that the Government should give 1,110,000 for the line. . He considered, however, that the price offered in the Bill was too large. Mr BEETS AM opposed the purchase, holding that when money was so badly wanted in other parts of the Cob my, the Government ought not to purchase these district railways unless good financial reasons were shown.
Sir GEORGE GREY opposed the purchase. Large sums of money had been spent, he said, in buying these railways, the consequence of which would be that heavy charges would fall on the people— charges which would be felt for many years. He did not think: this Government should be the one to cause such charges on the country. It was shown that the New Zealand Agricultural Company was being largely relieved in this matter. What service had the Company done to the Colony that it should be thus relieved ? He sketched the history of this Company, which, he said (quoting from the prospectus), was formed, amongst other things, to provide religious,
sanitary, and educational welfare of the people who took up the land ; to provide churches, washhouses —(laughter)—parks, &c., and to provide money. He went on to recount the circumstances in connection with the formation of the Company, and said one of the original promoters — Mr Driver—had recently been appointed to on important position under the Government. If the Government persisted in pushing the Bill through, the House should to allow the Company to have the great sum which it would escape from paying. He asked hon members to stand by him in resisting -that. The MINISTER of LANDS said there was no question of giving money to the Agricultural Company. The hon gentleman (Sir George Grey) could not speak on the question without importing foreign matter. Sir George Grey, when Premier, gave his consent to Sir Julius Vogel (then Agent-General) being connected with the Agricultural Company. Sir GEORGE GREY denied that statement, and said hon gentlemen on the other side of the House knew that he opposed Sir Julius Vogel’s connection with the Company. The MINISTER of LANDS repeated his assertion, and said that was also the recollection of other gentlemen. Sir GEORGE GREY again denied it. The SPEAKER said the assertion had been denied, and must be withdrawn. The MINISTER said it was not an assertion, but a question of memory. The SPEAKER said that was not so. The statement must be withdrawn. Sir GEORGE GREY said he would ask the Government to lay on the table the telegrams which he sent as soon as he knew of the AgentGeneral’s connection with the Company. The MINISTER of LANDS proceeding, referred to the large estates which were being acquired when the company was formed. It was understood that Sir Julius Vogel was to be allowed to attend to his own business when he was in London. With regard to the Bill Mr Ballance said the line to be purchased was progressing, and in a few years the ratepayers would be freed from the burdens now cast upon them in the way of rates —the line would pay its own expenses. Sir GEORGE GREY repeated his request that correspondence in connection with the Agent-General (Sir J. Vogel) and the company should be laid on the table of the House. The MINISTER said if notice was given no doubt the correspondence would be produced. Mr BRUCE said he had supported the purchase of the district railways, but he would not agree to more than L 102.000 being given for this line. Therefore he should not support the second reading of the Bill. Mr ROLLESTON said the history of the Agricultural Company had very little to do with this Bill. He thought L 102.000 would have been quite enough to pay for this line. With regard to the Company, he might say that the recollection of the hon member for Auckland East was borne out by the records of what took place in regard to Ministers and the Agricultural Company. He (Mr Rolleston) could not support the Bill, and thought that the Minister .of Public Works—probably un-intentionally-had been brought to propose a transaction that would not be desirable in the interest of the Colony. The n MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, replying, said he was net at all surprised to find Mr Beetham opposing the Bill, because he had always objected to these purchases. (The Minister’s further remarks were inaudible.) The motion for the second reading of the Bill was then put and agreed to by 28 to 21. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. This Bill, which was laid aside by the Legislative Council, was re-introduced by message, and passed through all its stages. GOVERNMENT LIFE INSURANCE BILL. The TREASURER moved the second reading of this Bill. Its object, he said, was to give effect to the recommendation of the House’s Committee and of the shareholders. It was proposed that the Bill should come into force 30 days after passing. He proposed to bring down proposals for appropriation of expenditure this session. . The hon gentleman then went through the Bill, and explained its provisions at some length. He did not think it necessary, he said, to go into other matters, as they had already been explained by the Select Committee. The second reading was agreed to without discussion. The TREASURER suggested that the Bill be committed that night. On the motion for committal, Mr MONTGOMERY said the report of the Select Committee was generally concurred in. The evidence showed that before the Board commenced its operations after the Bill was passed large purchases were made. He referred to the purchases, and said they had, together with the appointment of Mr Driver, had a prejudicial effect on the business of the Association, and other companies of course took advantage of that. He agreed with the Committee that some of the purchases were not necessary. The Committee was well able to give an opinion on this question, and the Bill embodied its report. He could not agree with the proposal for the new board, considering that the board should be free from political control. He thought that this matter ought not to be gone on with until. the Premier was able to express an opinion on it. Eor this was a question on which the Premier held very decided opinions. He quoted from the evidence of the Premier, where that gentleman said the business “ should be free from Ministerial control unless a special Minister was appointed. He thought it would be well to remove the „ Association from the control of the Government of the day.” He (Mr Montgomery) thought it was unwise to place public men in positions to which insuspicion would attach, as it would, in a matter like this, where the investment of public moneys was concerned. He wished to see a Board of Advice if they were to invest money, and he should move in committee to try and get the Association as free from political influences a 3 the Trust Office was. He thought the Board, as he had said, should be a Board of Advice to assist a statutory officer,.who should be a man firm of character, with a thorough knowledge of his business, and a capacity for it. The salary paid to him would not be a great question—L4oo.or LSOO a year was nothing in a matter like this. Mr W. D. STEWART said he, as a member of the Select Committee, had been surprised at the manner in which the board conducted its business. He did not think it was necessary to have palatial buildings in which to carry on the business—the Government guarantee was the best advertisement they could have. But the way in which the purchases were conducted astonished him ; for had they been conducted by business men, LIO.OOO could have been saved. The Christchurch purchase was an extraordinary one, and he did not think the provisions of the lease, by which the Association was to take back a portion of the buildings, could be carried out. In the case of the Auckland purchase, Mr Moss stated in his evidence that he could have bought the property for LISOO less. Altogether, a more complete muddle he never saw. The Select Committee came to the conclusion that this management, would not inspire confidence. His own opinion was that what was wanted was economical manage-
ment without undue pretentiousness, and the best means of advancing, the business were by large bonuses and inspiring confidence on policyholders. He did not think a statutory officer would he necessary, since a Board was to be appointed. He agreed that there was a great deal to be said against political management. He hoped that under new. management ”the Association would be a greater success than it had been. Mr ORMOND thought the evidence would convince everyone of the justification for. asking for the appointment of the Committee. Dissatisfaction existed as to the dissensions on the Board and at the large investments being made in offices. For these reasons the Select Committee was asked for. He thought it would be agreed that the Committee could have expressed much stronger opinions. He himself was not desirous of handing the Association back to the Government, but favored the appointment of a responsible statutory officer, and moved a resolution to that effect, which was not agreed to. He had heard Major Atkinson speak of the extent to which the business had grown, and in addition to this he (Mr Ormond) wished to remove the Association from Government control. He saw nothing in the Bill to prevent the same state of things existing again as had existed under the Board. Speaking on the general question, Mr Ormond said he had moved a motion—which he considered the evidence warranted—to the effect that the Committee considers it extremely undesirable that any member of the Government should.be placed in the position of initiating and dealing with the purchases of this nature, and recommended that this be provided against in future. An amendment was carried to the effect.that the sanction of Parliament should be obtained to purchases, but the Bill did not give effect to it. A most objectionable feature of the purchases was that they were all initiated by the Minister in charge of the department. He hoped the result of the Committee’s investigations would be to induce the House to take steps to prevent similar occurrences in the future. He thought that if they did not appoint a statutory officer they would have to face the question very shortly of appointing a Minister to devote his time to the management of the department. Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE defended the appointment of Mr Driver, and did not consider excessive prices had been paid for buildings. He thought the facts and figures as to the business of the year showed an increase rather than a falling off. The evidence of Mr H. D. Bell went to show that there had been a steady increase in the business. After some further discussion The TREASURER, replying, said he had no doubt the accusations against a Treasurer of using the Association for political purposes referred to something that a previous Minister had done. (Mr Montgomery : Yes three years ago.) He went on to defend the purchases as good investments. A purchase in Auckland was necessary. As to him initiating purchases, he had made recommendations to the Board. Evidence.was given before the Select Committee that he had not attempted to [exercise influence, which,, in the opinion of one Director, he might have exercised. The intention of the Legislature was that the Government should have influence on the board; hut it was amply shown that he had never attempted to exercise any influence. Attempts had been made to show that there was a difference of opinion in the Cabinet as to the management of the institution. The Premier, it was true, had expressed himself in favor of a manager, giving his evidence on the spur of the moment. How far the hon gentleman adhered, to the opinion he could not say ; but the Bill was agreed to in Cabinet by all the members of the Government. He (the Treasurer) thought it would be unwise to appoint a statutory manager on good behaviour to an office like this. The House then went into committee on the Bill. Progress was reported when clause 3 was reached, and the House rose at a quarter-past one.
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New Zealand Mail, Issue 753, 6 August 1886, Page 9
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20,061PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Mail, Issue 753, 6 August 1886, Page 9
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