PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 752, 30 July 1886, Page 9

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THURSDAY, JULY 22. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS. Various petitions, etc., were presented. PETITION OF ANN ROBERTS. This petition had been referred back to the Public Petitions Committee to report whether the petitioner should be paid certain expenses. The Committee reported that in their opinion there were no special circumstances to warrant such payment. iEAVE OF ABSENCE. Leave of absence for fourteen days was granted to Mr Coster on account of illness. QUESTIONS. . , Captain RUSSELL asked the Minister for Public Works if he will cause a detail survey to be made of the best hue of: co »g end of the Patea road, Hawkes Bay County, through Rangitikei County, to the nearest •onvenient position for a station on the Island Trunk Railway? _ , The MINISTER said the Government

woutd eauae a survey of some sort to be “The NATIVE MINISTER, in answer to Sir George Grey, wid the Government had done what they could to provide medicalassis tance for the Natives at Otaki, but did not consider they were called upon to appoint a doctor to the district. Mr TE AO moved the adjournment of the House in order that he might speak. The person to whom the medicine was sent had no knowledge of medicine. . ..... Dr NEWMAN said the way m which the Natives were dying out in this district was shocking, and he thought the Government might arrange for a doctor to visit the district Sa The C MINISTER said the Government could not provide medical assistance for every Native district, but if the Natives would subscribe an amount the Government W Mr l ROLLESTON suggested that the Go- ' vernment should make the Maoris take the bl Maio b r b ATKINSON asked the Government. Whether they will, during the recess, get such surveys made as will enable an opinion to be formed as to the relative merits of the routes to connect Taranaki . with the main trunk line bv Stratford and Mimi ? The MINISTER said the Engineer-m-Chief had recommended a report being obtained on this matter, and the Government intended to have it done. . The MINISTER of JUSTICE, answering Mr Guinness, said the Government did not intend to put a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for the payment of The PREMIER, m answer to Sir George Grey, said he thought the attention the hon member had called to the poisonous nature of certain match-s would be sufficient, without haying packages or tins of matches labelled P °Sir n GEORGE GREY asked the Premier, If he will take measures for having the inquiry into the purchase by the Government of the Waimate Railway debentures carried further, in the direction suggested by the hon member f °The "pRE MIER did not think, from the evidence, that there was any necessity for further inquiry. It was, of course, a reflection on the Committee to ask for such an inquiry. BILL INTRODUCED. A Bill to amend the Disqualification Act, 1878 was introduced and read a first time. ’ OTAGO HARBOR BRIDGE BILL. This Bill was committed, agreed, to with amendments, and read the third time and P \VAIMATE RACECOURSE TRUSTEES EMPOWERING This Bill was agreed to, reported, and read tlie third time and passed. OAMARU HARBOR BOARD LOAN BILL. The B* i ll was agreed to in committee, ana read the third time and passed. CHRISTCHURCH MUNICIPAL OFFICES BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee ana read the third time and passed. AUCKLAND HARBOR BOARD LOAN BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee and read the third time and passed. PORT CHALMERS FIRE BRIGADE SITE BILL. q'his Bill was read the second time, and the committal set down for Saturday. NELSON FORESHORE BILL. This Bill was read the second time. KBW PLYHOUTH HARBOR BOARD LOAN BILL. The interrupted debate on the committal of this Bill was proceeding when the o.OU aajournment was taken.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. EDUCATIONAL FRANCHISE BILL. This Bill was committed. On clause 3, definition of “ householder,” Major Steward (member in charge of the Bill) moved an amendment to the effect that every person male and female resident m T/'RoUeston six months, shall have a vote. Mr KoUeston objected to this, and in the course of a discussion it came out that Major Steward had arranged, as he thought, a compromise with the Premier (who was in opposition to th~, Bui) t the effect that the cumulative vote should be abolished on such an amendment as that now moved by Major Steward being made, lhe Premier, however, said he had understood that the cumulative vote was to be three—not abolished. Mr Rolleston there upon moved that the Chairman leave tl )e chair. Mr W. O. Walker said the Premier and Mr Rolleston were absolutely afraid to deal with this question fairly - they were afraid something was going to be done to break down the educational svstem. The cumulative vote, he said, was put into the Education Act by people who thought to upset the rule that the majority should govern. At present a minority could govern the whffie edimation administration in any district. Mr Fulton supported the clause, which,, he. would give to women a voice m a matter in whieh they were so much interested. Af some further discussion a motion by tne Premier that the Chairman leave the chair was carried by 30 to 26. _. TTT DOG REGISTRATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was Committed. Various new clauses were carried in respect to actions against persons whose dogs destroyed sheep. Mr McMillan (in charge of the Bill) m °ved *n amendment exempting aboriginal Natives dogs from the increased to. MrO Conor objected to this, and moved that th® Ghan man leave the chair. Mr Te AoP? 1 ”fth that the Maoris thought a great deal of their dogs—as much, in fact, as many hon members thought of their honorarium. Laughter.) Mr O’Conor s motion was lost. Air vv. F. Buckland moved to report progress. This was lost by 3o to 21. After a lengthy discussion Mr McMillan s amendment was agreed to (exempting a dogs). Mr O’Conor thereupon moved that dogs used for house purposes be exempted. Mr Seddon suggested that bulldogs should also be exempted. Mr Leveslam thought the committee was wasting time, because the Bil, if it passed, would be thrown out m another place. Mr Hmsthouse said he could not compliment the Native Minister or the Premier on the compromise they had matJe . v '7 rt : ve Native members, especially as the Native Minister had frequently said on plat* ! forms that there should be one .aw for the two races. He should vote .Presently for abolishing Maori representation m Parliament^ Mr Wi Pere said that would drive the Maoris back to Tawhiao. A long debate ensued, m which Mr O'Conor took the P™««pal part, arguing that, the Native members had not acted fairly m supporting the Bill cause an exemption was given. to h ® . stituents. He pointed out, late m the evening, that a great many people were to extent dependent on degs. (An hon membe . Sausages !) He wanted to know why mpocent little dogs should be persecuted in this irrational wfv Why, if dogs destroyed sheep let “ o EJyl‘ y Commfcio» be .PPgjf to mquire into the matter. (Laughter.) tie aa vised the House to at once pass Bdl for the Introduction of the ec ? lDl f dog.” The hen gentleman spoke f°*“ about half an hour at this stage, s;nd a elusion of his remarks the Chairman urgea

hon members to come back seriousiy to the question, and not to degrade the « OBa P“ , ‘ t te ® “ the eyes of the people by making a burlesque of the matter. Mr W. F. Buckland said he had heard a story tbe other day of a house-dog which almost brought tears into hia eyes. The hon member proceeded tonarratethe history of “an Innocent little dog, which, it appeared, had been destroyed by the pohee, despite the tears and lmplormgs of the owners, because it was not registered This was not a subjeet to be dealt with lightly, he said the lives of many dogs were in the hands of the. House. Mr ft Hirst arose with a book in his hand and asked whether he would be in order in describing the different dogs, called house dogs. He proceeded to read from the book, and was. in the act of alluding to the virtues of the terrier dog under certain circumstances, when he was interrupted and called to order. Mr Hursthouse said he P should proceed to describe to the Committe what a house .dog was He then entered into a description of collies and other dogs, discriminating carefully between the collies which had short tails those which had long tails, and those which had no tads at all. All these, he said, might be called household dogs. Mr H. Hirst took up his. speech, and referred to the terriers, &c., which would be exempt if Mr O’Conor’s amendment was carried. There was the Dundreary dogso called because thev had magnificent moustaches. .He heid up a book wluc contained a picture of this dog. Stem was also the “ Russian borer.” If dogs that slept in the house were to be exempt, every dog the South would escape. The question was put that Mr O’Conor’s amendment be agreed Avar 16 • noes. 27. Amendment lost, Mr O’Conor moved to exempt ladies’net dogs. Mr Fulton said these dogs killed sheep, and related an instance in his own experience. Mr O’Conor asked what sort of dog that was what was his breeding? Mr Hrntjd he'^iinderstood^proposed^io 0 exempt | dog ought to P becomme?norated. Mr UCqAnoris (clause 3) stand part of the Bill. Ayes, 23, noes. 11. Mr Duncan moved that the Bill apply to Canterbury only.. Mr O Conor said he, as leader of the Opposition, accepted the amendment. Mr W- F. Buckland agreed with this, and said if, after Canterbury’s experience, the rest of the Colony pined and hungered for the Bill, they could have it. Mr McMillan made some remarks which were inaudible m the Press gallery, and which were cheered by the Premier. ‘Mr W. F. Buckland said the Premier had “got his back very stiff over this Billand it was a pity the hon gentleman did not keep it stiff in other matters, lhe Premier followed, and said it was a pity that the Parliament was not sitting at Auckland, in which case it would be better for some hon members. He alluded to Mr W. F. Buckland as having agreed to withdraw opposition on certain amendments being made. Mr Hislop said the Premier was too ready to put credence on statement* reflecting on the credit of hon members. He(MrHi3lop) went on to say he was present at the in terview between Mr W. F. Buckland and Mr McMillan, and nothing bad been said to justify a statement to the effect that Mr Buckland had promised not to oppose the BUI. i. ne Premier said he was speaking on what Mr McMillan had told him, and he still believed that gentleman. Mr J. C. Buckland expressed indignation at the manner in which the Premier accused other hon members ot telling untruths. Mr Hislop said the Premier s attitude was not creditable to his position, or to his manliness. Mr Turnbull regretted private conversations being retailed in the House Mr. Duncan’s amendment was lost by 25 to 7. Mi McMillan said he had understood Mr W Jb. Buckland to agree to withdraw all opposition to the Bill. Mr Hislop made a short but sarcastic speech, in which he said one think, to hear the Premier, that the hon gentleman was in the habit of having his statements doubted, whereas everybody knew the candid manner in which the. Premier took the House into his confidence m everything. Mr Hobbs moved that the Bill only apply to the Middle Island. Lost. , The Bill was reported with amendments, and third reading set down for the next day on which private members’ business was considered. The House then (12.40) rose.

FRIDAY, JULY 23. The House met at 2.30. WAIRAU GAS BILL. Mr HISLOP moved the second reading ot tb Mr P opposed the Bill, and moved that it be read the second time that day SI The°PREMIER supported the second reading, fnd said the Bill being a private one, should be opposed on the motion for third 16 ATong discussion ensued. Eventually the wo7d “ now ” (as to the second reading) was struck out by 27 to 26. , , Mr REESE moved that the Bill be read the second time next sitting day. " This was lost by 28 to 26, and the 8,1 l was ordered to be read the second time that day month. sta nding orders.

Mr HAMLIN moved that in order to facilitate private business, standing and 76 of the orders relating to private Bills be SU This d was carried with an addition to the effect that the motion should apply only to unopposed motions. GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. Mr ORMOND presented the report of the Government Insurance Association Committee, and moved that it lie on the table and be printed. ... ATKINSON asked whether any t rfHpr steDS were proposed to be taken ? Mr ORMOND said not at present.; but the question was one whieh would require attenATKINSON suggested that the reP of the HOUSE read the renort which was as follows Your Committee has inquired into and taken evidence at tee leneth on the subjects referred to themf'both as to purchase of building sites and .u H-al working of the Government Insurance Ass the present Board. As regards the purchase of building sites, the Committee finds that properties were purchased at Wellington and Dunedin prior to the coming into office ; that a purchase at r’hrf-tchurch had been under negotiation, and Sas completed by authority of the Board; Sso that a site at Auckland was purchased by the Board. It appears from the evidence fßaf- all these purchases were made with the oHfccfc of securing sites for the erection of buildings, on the ground that such w-ei-e necessary to influence and promote business The Wellington purchase was made from the Government, the price paid being Tift 000 The business of the Association at * s conducted in a portion of

the building, the remainder of the space being let as offices to other Government departments. The results are estimated to yield 6 per cent, on the purchaee. /The Committee learns that it is in contemplation to pull down the present building, and erect in Its place a structure estimated to cost L. 35,000. Plans have been prepared and paid for, and architects are engaged in preparing working plans and specifications with - the view of calling tor tenders. The Dunedin purchase was made in December, 1884. The price paid was L. 35,500, costs and expenses bringing the price up to L 36.029 9s 2d. The premises have not been used by the Association, other offices being rented in another part of Dunedin at L 75 a year. Portions of the premises are subject to leases which have some years to run. Some of the buildings are described as being in a dilapidated state The present rents return L 2007. The evidence shows that to utilise the purchase a large expenditure on new buildings will be required. The Christchurch property was purchased from two different parties, the larger portion from Mr Maling for L 10,250, and an adjoining section from Mr Phillips for LISOO. The Maling property has since been relet to him for 25 years at a rental of LSOO per annum for five years, and L6OO per annum for 20 years. It has been proposed to build offices for the conduct of the Associations business on Mr Phillips’ sectmn,_ At Auckland a property was purchased from Mr Shera, the price paid being L 19.000. The purchase was made on the 31st March, 1880, and the buildings have been unoccupied since the disc October, 1885, although the Association rents other premises as offices. The Committee has to report in respect to these purchases that an outlay of L 84.779 has been incurred; that, with the exception of the Wellington building, the premises are not used for offices by the Association ; that costly buildings were intended to be constructed on the sites; that all the purchases must be regarded as having been made partly for speculative purposes ; and that it was undesirable the. funds of the Association should have been so invested, lhe Committee considers the erection of costly buildings, with the idea of thereby attracting business, quite unnecessary ; and recommends that only such buildings be provided as are requisite for the proper and convenient conduct uf the Association’s business. The Committee considers it extremely advisable that any future purchases of land or buildings, ana all salaries of officers should be submitted for the approval of Parliament. In respect to the general working of the Association under the present Board, in the opinion of your Committee the evidence justifies the following conclusions 'That the disagreements of the Board, and the publicity given to these disagreements, have acted injuriously to-the interests of the Association. That the working expenses of the Association have been conr siderably increased, and that no proportionate advantage has accrued. That the interests of the policyholders require that a portion of the funds should be invested in securities yielding a better return than can be obtained from Goment securities. That canvassing for live ß 18 necessary to the success of the Association, Your Committee has agreed to the following resolutions, which it recommends to the consideration of the House : —That the present Board should be abolished. That the general management of the Association’s business should be entrusted -to an officer of high character and. attainments, possessing experience in the business of insurance, lhat the Act of 1874 be re-enacted, subject to the recommendations of this Committee. lhat not less than one-half of the funds of the Association should be invested m Government securities and in debentures of public bodies in New Zealand secured by rates. That the remainder of the funds shall be invested in advances on policies and on mortgage

of freehold properties in New Zealand ; provided that ho such mortgage shall exceed LIO.OOO, and the money lent shall not exceed one-half the market value of such property. That all moneys lent on mortgage should be invested in the various provincial districts, as nearly as practicable, in the. proportion in which the same have been derived from such districts, provided this can be done without loss to the Association. That applications for loans not exceeding LSOO, secured upon real property should have priority over applications for larger sums. That for dealing with investments a special Board should be appointed ; such Board to consist of the Minister in charge of the department, the General Manager, the Suveyor-General, the Property Tax Commissioner, and the Public Trustee. That no investment by mortgage or loan shou.d be made without the unanimous vote of all the . members of the Board present at the meeting, at which such loan is considered, and that m all cases the assent of not less than three members shall be required. That canvassing for lives should be continued; and that every encouragement be given to the issue of small P °Mr 6 0RMOND asked whether the Government proposed to deal with the .matter this session, and whether an opportunity would be given for discussing it. The PREMIER : The Government do propose to deal with the matter this sessien, and an opportunity will be given for discussion. (Hear hear.) V T»Ar\TT«a TAAWQ TITT.r,-

LOCAL BODIES LOANS BILL. The TREASURER reported that the conference on this Bill had not arrived at any agreement. QUESTIONS. The NATIVE MINISTER, in answer to Mr W. F. Buckland, said the Government did not propose to grant clerical assistance, to Mr Hannaford, of Auckland, m making working plans of a new lighthouse. The NATIVE MINISTER, m answer to Mr G. F. Richardson, said the Government did not intend to introduce a Half-castes Danas Bill this session. . .... Mr CAD MAN asked the Government if their attention has been directed to the. large amount of baulk kauri timber now being exported to Australia, m order to save the Customs duty imposed m the Australian colonies on our sawn and dressed timber, and if so. will they devise some legislation whereby this colony may reap the benefit of haying our kauri timber manufactured before being ex P The TREASURER replied that it was a question that must be considered with other ta The q MINI3TER of JUSTICE, in answer to Mr Beetham, said, he would consider the advisability of appointing Justiee.s of the Peace in the east coast of the provincial district of Wellington. . T , Mr BEETHAM asked the Government, If they will consider the advisability of meeting to a certain extent the claims for assistance from the Natives of Tarawera and the Whakatane district, by purchasing the. Lake district for the purpose of securing so interesting a locality as a national park ? The NATIVE MINISTER did not think it would be advisable to press the Natives in this matter. Some of the Natives had already been approached, and the negotiations bad not been very successful. The Government would, howeverf try whether the locality of the Terraces could be changed for land m another Pa The f NATIVE^MINISTER, in answer to

Mr Samuel Baid Mr Colenso.s Maori lexicon would not be ready for some time. I£ 9 a, which was a very important one, had nowbeen finished. It was proposed to publishtb The f PREMIER,, in answer to Mr Dodeon, said the Government would communist# : with the Sheep Inspectors as to getting information as to the accommodation provided tor shearers on stations. -rvv " Mr ORMOND asked the Minister aor Public Works, Is he aware that in calling for tenders for the Gorge contract on.the Nap.ier to Palmerston line the specifications are so indefinite and open to misconstruction a» lO bo likely to interfere with advantageous tenders being received, and will he take steps to have the specifications amended ? The MINISTER replied that the specifica- ' tions were similar to those used in Engfmd. Some of the best contractors in the Dolony had told him they were satisfied with the present form of the contracts. , Mr FERGUS (who moved the adjournment of the House) said he did not know where the Minister got his information from, for not a day passed but contractors came to him. and complained of the manner in which specifications in this contract were being drawn up. He read portions of the specifications, and objected to one clause by which the resident en- ~ gineer was to be the sol 6 judge of what class > cuttings belonged to. ' , PRIVATE MEMBERS BILLS. 't The PREMIER moved that the House at its rising adjourn till Monday at 2.30., This was carried. The Premier moved that local - Bills have precedence on Monday, and that business set down for Thursday next be taken on Monday. . ", . A discussion on this was going on when the 5.30 adjournment was taken.

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30.

The PREMIER moved that local Bills and private members Bills take precedence cn Monday up to 5.30, This was carried.

MINING BILL. The amendments to this Bill were agreed to, and the Bill was read the third time and T)&Sfi6u BEER DUTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

The TREASURER moved a new clause (to come into force in a year), prohibiting the manufacture of cordials or aerated waters m a brewery or bottling liquors of any kind in a brewery. Mr Buchanan opposed the clause. He pointed out that the definition of the word *• brewery ” was a very comprehensive one. The clause, upon discussion, was rejected by ■> 36 to 32. The Treasurer said he was sorry to say the Bill would have to be dropped. He ' moved to report progress. This was earned, ;« and progress was reported. MORTGAGE DEBENTURES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was considered in committee, agreed ; to and reported, read the third time and P PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT DISCUSSION. The debate on the second reading of the Loan Bill was resumed. Mr FERGUS said a statement oft repeated came to be looked on as truth, but, despite the fact that the Government were always loudest in their own praise, he denied that the Government were entitled to any praise for their administration. He went on to say that he hailed with satisfaction the advent to the office of Public Works Minister a gentleman of the experience, ability and reputation of iuLr Richardson. He denied, however, that the hon gentleman had carried out tlie reforms he had advocated with no uncertain sound when he joined " this most miserable of all Governments." The hon gentleman said, when he was in Opposition, that he could effect reductions in the cost of the department. But where were the savings ? Where were ..he reforms . Mr Fergus went on to say that if the Minister would take a lesson from the engineering of the Wellington-Manawatu Railway—which cost about half what the Government lines cost —he could save a great deal, lhe Minister had spoken when he was in office of pushing on lines to a paying point. How hacl he dealt with that particular portion of hia avowed policy ? Why it was in as bad a mess as ever. The non gentleman had sat there drawing, a large salary, and holding the office of a. Minister, while his promises melted into the thinnest of thin air. Why, ten per cent, of the money actually spent on railways was lying dormant —waste and useless —at the present time. The time would come when money would have to be borrowed to make this work reproductive, and a great deal of the work now being clone would have to be done again. He twitted the Minister with not daring to bring down the proposals which he had so warmly advocated in 1884 for the establishment of non-p°lUt C£ d boards to manage the • railways. There, he said, the hoa gen tie man still sat on the Government benches, which, if if his speeches were to be considered, he did not adorn. The Minister, he said, had made the whole servioe insecure, and he pointed out that Mr Bach, the Canterbury General Mana- • ger and one of the best officers the service had, left New Zealand, he believed, on this account. The policy of the Minister was sot > weak, and so vacillating that the officers of too, department felt insecure, and a number of the ' best officers applied for the position to which Mr Bach was appointed. He charged the Go- ■ verument with having failed to carry oufcthe poliev it enunciated when it went into office, As to the future policy of the Government, he said he would excuse them a multitude of sms in the past if they promised better m the . future. But they had followed so much of. . the policy of the previous Government— ; of which they had taken and intensified all the worst points—that he had no hope for amendment in future. After allowing for liabilities, the Government had now for their vigorous policy L 1,100 ,000. The Treasurer was simply playing with the House and with the country. He (Mr Fergus; urged the appointment of a commission of capable men to report on the lines of the Colony—a commission whose report should be followed in expending money on lines. He censured the Government for their policy with regud to the Otago Central and North Island mai» trunk railways, and said that money had been frittered away in the case of the latter line. The present system of letting work m the Colony was very unsatisfactory, and he blamed the present Minister for not making an alteration in this way. Colonial lines cost about L 7949 per mile to construct, while the district railways cost 83679. He complained that the work was being badly done. The only conclusion he could arrive at was that tne. Go ver nroent did not mean what they said m 186-* and he could not give the Minister for Public Works credit for the. ability with wh.cn he had been generally credited. Mr MONTGOMERY said the loan was to be raised partly to assist to cover the cost of miscellaneous works, and ho thought the Government should have made the proposal more straightforwardly. He censured the Government for the manner in which they had used monev applied to particular purposes. >V»sn regard North Island trunk line, he asked what the land was that the Government pr posed to buy along the line. He held that the land they ought to purchase was that between

the Mokau range to Te Awamutu, the best land, by far, along the line. With regard to the'Bill, he said it was an important thing to consider what the scheduled lines would cost to finish. That was the knowledge which was necessary and whichthey had notgot. What did they know of the cost of the Blenheim-Topbouse < line ?' ' They were voting money now simply I for'the survey. The policy of the hon member ti -for'Egmont was definite—-it was to a million a year—but it appeared'-to him that they would want now to burrow a great dealmore than that if they were to complete all the i scheduled lines. Major ATKINSON regretted that neither the Public Works Minister nor the Brenner I had replied to the speeches made aga’nst them, I And lie could only conclude that those speeches were unanswerable. He had positively felt for those hon gentlemen, and he concludedjiow . that they wished to get all the Opposition speeches over, so that thfcy could cover everything up with a cloud of words and mystify the country. But he could tell them that whatever they said would be answered, and on them would rest the length of the debate. He wanted to know what amount the Government proposed to spend on Native lands roughly—and what land they proposed to spend.it on? (Mr Ballance: LIOO,OOO thn year.) And how much next year? (Mr Ballamck : We have not decided that yet.) They had it confessed now that the Government did not know what amount they were going to spend in that direction. The Treasurer was very kind the other night, but*he did not succeed in reconciling the . financial and Public Works Statements so clearly as to satisfy the Opposition. He. was not going to lay a general indictment against the Government now. Before the end of this session he should probably catalogue, not all—that would make too large a book—but a few of their sins. That night, however, he was going to refer to the Public Works Statement and the Loan Bill. The Statement in matters of detail was full and business-like except one or two parts of it. Having said that he had said all he could have said, for there was nothing in it in the way of indication of policy ; it was clear, as an hon member had said, that the Minister, if he_ had been loose when he wrote it, would have given them something very different. Here they saw the conflict of the Premier and the Treasurer with regard to the management of the railways. He wanted to know How it was that the Public Works Minister had changed his opinions ? Before the hon gentleman went into office he had, speaking as an expert, given the House to understand that the New Zealand Railways were the most wretchedly managed in the world. When he went into office he said he had done so on the distinct -understanding that, the railways were to be put under non-political boards. But ke said in effect that the House would not accept these boards, and the Government would not agree to it.“ Somebody toldto• flo it.” That was the policy of -the whole. Government. Why, Adam, and JEve was - nothing to it. The Treasurer for instance—hi3 tools denied him, and prosperity—not yet come. Yet there he sat still. “ Somebody told me to do it.” Major Atkinson went on to express astonishment at the action of the Minister for Public Works regarding management by boards. He did think that the hon gentle-,-man ought to tell the House if his views were changed, and if they were not changed, then the hon gentleman was. not doing his duty by sitting on the—Government ‘ benches The great cry of the Government from the.beginin" had been “ we will make railways and not roads.” That was a distinct policy—but why did not the Government. adhere to its views. They said they wanted railways and not roads. (The Treasures : No ! no ! no !) What, another change of front? (Laughter.) Well, the Government was in favor of. roads being made by local bodies, and now they came round, and were almo.Bt declaring for roads, and not railways. They preached, railwaysbecause railways were reproductive. I hat was what they said. But the most .they must epend on “ other works ” (besides railways) was £500,000, L,1500,000 being proposed for railways. The Treasurer said this when he had been round the Colony. If these railways were to be reproductive, was the House not reasonable in asking that the railways for which money was asked should be explained. He asked the Minister for Public Works, if he had recovered from the speeches made against him, or the Premier—who was prepared in another place to speak on either side, on a proper arrangement of fees—to explain these lines that were scheduled. The Colonial Treasurer, in 1885, said there would be three classes of railways —main trunk, district, and forest,. Now, the hon gentleman evidently had ,in his mind then a large scheme of mapping out the country with railways. Where was that was it trewe.? And why were not these lines now proposed classified, and the House told what return was expected from them ! For this was not a Government with a small railway policy. They were “ first com- { lie ting main lines, and then carrying on other ines to paying- points.’’ He asked the House to look at the railway proposals of the Government—it was a great railway Government. And here he might compliment the Minister on the way in which he was asking for his votes in the Statement. The Government asked the House to commit the Colony to liabilities to the extent of L 2,350,000, of which L 1,273,000 was to be spent on railways. He contended therefore that the Government had no right to tell the country they were spending money on reproductive works, when at the same time they were telling hon members they were giving everything wanted in their districts. The hon gentleman went on to object to the sy stein by • which Native land was being purchased. The commission -system, he said, was open to the objection of political influence being-engaged in it. That was-a grave objection against the system. There was no question that large quantities of land would be _ that was utterly worthless. The Native Minister complained that the Natives would not select their reserves, but if he knew anything about it he must know that the Natives always selected their reserves first. There was nothing to be said in favor of this wretched system of commission, and he hoped that the Government would announce before the session was over that they would discontinue it. He would ask how the Treasurer could reconcile his action in asking the House to ear-mark that loan, with the proposal to take LIOO.OOO of the North Island trunk line loan for land purchases. It was all due to the LBOO,OOO of liabilities, no doubt; and if be (Major Atkinson) had not made his explanation of that matter before the Loan Bill came down, the LIOO,OOO clause would not have been in the Bill. Now he came to the question of ways and means. He wished to refer to something the Treasurer had said the other night. The late Government took L 370 000 out of the L 3,000,000 loan for expenditure on open lines. This was explained to the House, as was the Government s intention to recoup it. Then the Government was put out of office. Then the succeeding Treasurer asked for 1,500,000 to recoup that money. But now, the hon gentleman, after getting the money with which to recoup the came down and said that no less than L 670.000

had been misapplied from the 1,3,000,000 loan. That meant that the hon gentleman got the money to recoup the expenditure—under the solemn pledge to the House to restore it—he came to the House now and said there was L 670.000 owing. (The Premier : Entirely incorrect.) Major Atkinson said, well, the amount was under LBOO,OOO, so no doubt the Treasurer would be able to explain it. Reverting to railways, the hon gentleman said there were a number of nsw lines proposed , which ought not to be carried on—the Livingstone line, for instance. The Treasurer now proposed to pay for L 200,000 or L 300,000 for rolling stock on the trunk line. He wanted to know why, also, the Treasurer did not buy up the earthwork, for Ministers, apparently, wanted something to spend. The new loan, in fact, was to relieve the old one to the extent of 1,700,000 and for no reason except that of expediency to the Government. And upon roads, for which the Government were not to spend money, about half the loan really went. These were proper charges (for roads) against the LBOO,OOO which the Treasurer told them was available to be spent in miscellaneous works. The Treasurer said that there was L 202,000 prospective liabilities “ which wemid not be wanted this year ” to be charged. Hut if that amount was not charged this year, it would disappear— they would see no ™°roof it. That came out of the L 1,119,000 left available for railways. Now, out of that amount the Government said they proposed to spend this year L 709.000 and asked the House by the Estimates to vote L 950.000 for two years. So that , there was L 109.000 left for new works, next year, of 'which there’would be liabilities for-defence, Native lands, subsidies to local bodies, &c., to the extent of L 120.000. Roughly, there was L 50.000 left to provide next year for the L 200.000 prospective liabilities, for new works and buildings, &c. He could tell hon members that they would not get a penny spent on works. (Mr Montgomery : New loan?) Major Atkinson said he was coming to that. But the Premier wasn’t going to agree to that. He cautioned hon members that they’were voting now for two years all the money placed at their disposal. Had the House given the Government full swing' they would have asked ’for a L 3,000,000 loan this year. The Premier spoke at Invercargill of “tapering off.” Did he call the expenditure of last year tapering off. He asked the hon gentleman how it was that, having said he would have the expenditure “tapered off?”--he-' proposed to spend L 500.000 more this year than last. He hoped the Premier would instruct the Public Works Minister to taper off. He would suggest to the Government that the House should .adjourn for a day or two in order, to consider this, He said it was quite impossible to carry out the proposals now made without borrowing’Ll,2so,ooo next year. At the end of the year, the Treasurer would have spent Ms money, 'and what- was he, to do? The -hon gentleman knew well that he would have to ask for a loan. The Premier must look into that. Ha hoped that the Estimates would be cut down to an expenditure of a million —for he looked .to the Premier for assistance. Was the Premier going to be true to the House, to the country, tcf his constituents—by assisting to cut the expenditure down. In conclusion. Major Atkinson said they had charged him with making statements about the credit of the Colony. He was a colonitt, and. he was going to express his opinions at all times —and thefreedom he claimed he would extend to others. He did not agree with those who were called “ croakers,” but he respected them, and he did not think they' should be abused.. But if something was to be done for the credit of the’ Colony it could be done in the House—there was no need to go abroad. He believed that if the Colony’s credit was suffering at Home it was not from - what colonists had said, : but the policy of the Government. For if they were to have this, style, of.finance, if they were 1 “ to give the Colony another chance,” then he was afraid —though” he was not one of those who denied the inherent soundness of the Colony—we had a very dangeroue time to pass through. (Cheers.) The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said it was not his intention to speak at length. He did not think he had much to complain of as far as the debate had gone, in .the way of criticism of the Statement. Certainly one or two members had spoken, he might say bitterly, but it was easy to see the reasons that had actuated them. Major Atkinson had said the Government would only have LUO,OOO available for fresh' votes at the commencement of next year. He would leave further details to his colleagues. Oat of the votes as they stood now, L 40,000 would be available for purchase of Native lands next year. No doubt owing to the action of the House some other provision would have to he made for school buildings. There would be over L 2,000,000 available for two years from all sources, and the hon member knew well the expenditure -would not come up to the estimate. It was estimated that there would be about . L 1,300,000 for expenditure next year. The hon gentleman had asked him to classify the railways. He would be glad to give the House, either on the Estimates, or on the schedule of the Bill, such explanations, and say how much would be needed to complete the railways for which votes were asked. The principal votes were for completion of lines that were commented when the Government took office. The Livingstone branch had been referred to by Major Atkinson. Why, in the Public Works Statement of 1883 the Minister said tenders were advertised for the line (or the second tunnel of it), the Engineer-in. Chief s report on work done on it being also mentioned. The contract was let before the Government came in, and he appealed to the House whether any opposition had been offered when he, the other night, stated the Government’s intention to call for further tenders. He did not think the line should stop where it was, having been commenced, and he was given to understand that it ran through a very rick country. The lion gentleman (Major Atkinson) had stated that the land being bought along the Norch Island Trunk line was worthless. (Major Atkinson: No.) _ , j’ he understood the land was very good land. As to the statement that the expenditure was being increased, it was L 1.000,040 last year, and L 709.094 was asked for this year. As to what had been said about his railway management, hon members who referred, to that should not omit that paragraph which stated that the Department this year had worked 130 miles more railway without extra cost. Verv large changes, he submitted, had been effected during the year, and the results would favorably compare with those in other countries. As to the question of non-political board system of management, he might say his opinion was the same now as before. But he found this: that when a Bill for the establishment of Boards was submitted to members of this House they expressed an opinion that the time had not come for such a change j and he might say that had such a Bill been carried a large additional expense would have been needed fer two or three years at any rate. -Some two or three years must elapse, he thought, before the Colony would agree to a system of district Boards. Boards of Advice, he said, would require some timo

to make themselves acquainted with the railways, especially the question of goods traffic, and they would be of little use for a long time to the Minister. He pointed out, in this connection, that a great deal of local pressure would be brought to bear. He had been reproached for failing to fulfil the pledges he made before he took office. He would point out the large reductions in expense now going on. Classification had been going on, and works had been revised. . He should say no more on that head, except this, that so long as thfe pressure continued for new accommodation, a Minister or a General Manager who declined any unnecessary accommodation or reduction of rates deserved, he thought, encouragement. With regard to the expenditure on open lines, application had been made during the year for about L 48.000 in this way, and it was one of the most difficult tasks of the Minister to deal with these line 3. Major Atkinson appeared to have misunderstood the Estimates, for he brought out the most astonndiag results as to the liabilities upon next year. Referring: to the remarks of-the hon member for Napier, the Minister Baid that gentleman had blamed the Goverment for not carrying on trunk lines, and took as his example . the Otago Central, and Nnpier-Woodville lines. With regard to the latter he was informed.in 1884 that the previous Government had intended to make Tahoraite the terminus, and had gone to a large expenditure with that view. The present Government, however, took a different view of the line. It would have been impossible, he said, to complete the line in 1885* seeing that the survey through the Gorge had not been completed. The hon member surely knew that - 'the vote for-that line was taken off the Estimates, and no liability could be incurred on account of it. The hon member should have acquainted himself with the facts of the case before making statements, and if he had done that he would have read the last Public Works Statement, and found there that the line could not be proceeded with until a viaduct was built. The Government, he would know, were not goiDg to leave the line at a place where it was no nse, but were going to take it on to a proper point. He pointed out that many contracts could not be let, and many surveys were stopped on -account of .the reduction in the Estimates last' year. It was amusing, he said, to hear the arguments of hon ■members in reference to the North Island trunk line. One said, Why dont you goon? and another said, You.have not got enough land. were made.: as to the purchase .of Native land, but if the Government had not purchased any. land they would have been impeached almost, No one would have thought, he said, two years ago that the Natives would now be asking the Government to go on with the line, _ as they were. He expressed his sorrow at having heard Captain Russell say that the Public Works policy had broken down, and the Colony would some day be unable to pay its interest. He did not believe Hie Colony would ever attempt to repudiate. Mr Macarthur had stated that" very large sums had beon spent on works on the Wanganui River. The works that had been made there were made as necessary works to the trunk line, and a vote had been made of LBOOO for the purpose. If the line went on very considerable sums would have to be spent there. Referring to Mr Fergus’ speech, the Minister said if that gentleman had been a novice in these matters he might have been excused for comparing the district railways with the Government lines as regarded cost. But the hon gentleman knew that the district railways were the very lightest, and that"it -was unfair to compare their cost with. that of long lines where bridges,and tunnels had-to be made. Mr Fergus had stated that the cost of engineering was 6 per cent. A return showed the cost of supervising the whole system, however, at 54 per cent. The hon member, too, had nobhaa the common honesty l ;, to explain, what he kriew—that the officers employed in engineering had to attend to harbors, bridges, &c.j a 150.... These, the Minister said, were the only two points of Mr Fergus’ speech he would touch on, as showing the value of hon members’ arguments. It had been stated in the course of the debate that the Greymouth-Hokitika line was being taken by Kumara. No such statement had beon made : the Government had a report being prepared of the cost of connecting Kumara, on account of petitions from the inhabitants of the district. He denied that the Government had decided to make a railway inland from Gisborne. Nothing had been done except that reports had been received. In conclusion, he expressed a hope that there would be no curtailment of the Government's proposals, because if there was the result wouid be a considerable waste of money. (The hon gentleman did not speak any louder than usual, and was consequently almost inaudible, sit down amidst cheers ) Mr J. O. BUCKLAND said it was satisfactory to find that a large deficit had been converted into a surplus. If the Government did not curtail their expenditure, they should give way to men who would. The hon member went on to criticise the proposals of the Statement. Mr KE HR.thought Major Atkinsori.did : not; understand either the Financial or Public Works Statements. The late Government had left a number of railways In an unsatisfactory state, and the present Government had not had time to put them right. ” - ’• > • • • Mr HOBBS complained of the action of the Government in regard to the North Island trunk line, and denied that the North of Auckland line was new work. Mr J. McKENZIE moved the adjournment of the debate at half-past 1, and a division was taken. Ayes, 30; noes, 13. Motion carried. The debate was then adjourned till Monday.—The House then rose.

MONDAY, JULY 26. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. PORT CHALMER3 FIRE BRIGADE SITE BIEL. This Bill was committed. It was agreed to, reported, and read a third time and passed. NELSON FORESHORE BILL. Mr LEVESTA M moved that the committal of this Bill be postponed till Thursday next. ■ i ~ Mr BRYCE said this was a peculiar course to take at this stage of the session unless it was intended to drop the Bill altogether. He cautioned the hon member that he was probably shelving his Bill. # ’> ». After some further-discussion, the motion was carried. NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOR LOANS BILL. The adjourned debate on the committal of this Bill was resumed. Colonel TRIMBLE commenced speaking at about 3 o’clock, and continued till half past 5. During that time the House was counted out seventeen times. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. COAL MINES BILL. Amendments made by the Legislative Council to clause 55 of this Bill were disagreed with, and a committee appointed to draw up reasons. PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT DEBATE. The debate on the Loan Bill was resumed.

Mr J. McKENZIE likened the debate so far to a no-confidence debate without a motion to give effect to it. He thought the principal complaint of members of the Opposition was that they were riot on the Treasury benches. It had been said that the Government had stolen the policy of the Opposition, but he wanted to know what right the Opposition had to the policy. Were there not gentlemen on the. Government side of the House quite intelligent enough to know what would suit the requirements of the Colony? The principal objection from the other side was against borrowing; but all the hon members who said that wound up by saying that they would support the second reading of the Bill. The hon member for Mount Ida had evidently been reading the papers extensively during the recess, and had found out’that the Government had not been consistent. He found faulty with them more because they were united in policy. But had the hon gentleman (Mr Scobie Mackenzie) been consistent ? Why, when he was before his constituents; he said-he-was-coming' up to support Sir Julius Vogel. He did not blame the hon gentleman for changing his views—wise men always did that—but he should allow others the same liberty. The policy of the hon member was about this — that the Colony should borrow half a million for the Otago Central Railway, and nothing for anything else. What had the borrowing policy of the hon member for Egmonfc (Major Atkinson) been? Why in four _ years and two months he passed Loan Bills to the extent of L 9,250,000. (No.) Well, the Grey Government proposed the Ls,ooo,Qooloan, but the Atkinson Government had- the raising and spending it. Excluding the North Island trunk line Loan, the hon member’s Government spent L 8.250 009. Was the hon member for Mount Ida prepared to put that Government back in office. As to the speech of the hon member for Wakatipu (Mr Fergus), it was clear that if Major Atkinson ever found another Ministry, that hon member was the : only practical man in the Colony for the Public Works portfolio. Mr McKenzie went on to defend the administration of the affairs of the Colony as a fair one. 1 He pointed out that notwithstanding the depression, they had made the revenue meet the expenditure. What was wanted in the Colony was progress with moderation, and the loan of L 1,500,000 now proposed was part of such a policy. Mr G. F. RICHARDSON said the proposals in the Financial Statement as to new* works had not been followed in the Loanßill, and the allocations had been altered. While on the Statement he might say the best point of It appeared to be the statement that the loan was to last for two years. That was strictly in accordance with the Premier’s speech at Invercargill. It was stated in the Financial Statement, that the increase in expenditure would be compensated for by increased revenue. This increase of revenue, according to the Public Works Statement, was to come from extension of railways. Now it was his experience that lines of railway were not carried on quickly, and it was therefore rather too much to expect increase of revenue from extension of lines, to be constructed, as the Statement said; “in a few weeks.” He expressed an opinion that the use of Captain Russell’s amendmentreducing the estimates last session, was an ingenious one. As a member of a local body he had seen many letters commencing : “ In consequence of Captain Russell's amendment,” the Government could not do this or that. - Who was responsible for Captain Russell’s amendment ? Why the Government; because they had not accepted it. Touching North Island .works, Mr .Richardson said he wa3 still of opinion that the Government should go on acquiring land along the route of the trunk line. He thought the best two other lines in the North Island to go on with were the flelensville North and Palmerston-Wood-tville.” He thought the latter was an especially important one, for which there was not enough money set apart. He would point out that this line connected the East and West Coasts. He riiight also say that he thought the schedule of the Bill could be altered with advantage. As to the South Island, there was the East and West Coast line, on which he had expressed his opinion. He was glad to see that the Government had decided to alter the grades on that line. The Greymouth-Hokitika line, for which a vote appeared in the schedule, was within the limits of the land that might be taken by the company constructing the East and West Coast line, and he was of opinion that the Colony should not spend money in those limits until the company had made its selection of the land to be granted to it. The hon gentleman went on to deal with the other South Island lines for wh ; ch votes were proposed in the Bill. The most objectionable feature of the schedule of the. Bill was the proposal to make new. lines which did not run through agricultural land, or to run from anywhere to anywhere in particular. They were asked, for instance, to vote L 175.000 for the Blenheim-Tophouse and Westport-Inangahua lines. There could not be a shadow of argument in favor of constructing these lines until the. East and West Coast line was' completed. ' Further, to complete them would cost L 700.000, according to the official estimate. He held it extremely bad policy m the present position of the Colony to start such lines as this. They had not the money to complete' lines already commenced; and these lines now proposed would not open up settlement. Why, the peop’e of Blenheim themselves were petitioning against the Blenheim-Tophouse route. This line was to be constructed on the understanding that the East and West Coast line would terminate at Tophouse ; whereas permission had been given to the Company to take that line another route if they chose to do so. Whether or not, the two new lines he had mentioned would only be feeders. It seemed to him that the policy was to make railways for the benefit of the Midland Railway Company. And how did Blenheim stand at present for railways ? Why, it had an unfinished railway—the Awatere Valley line —at present incomplete. (The Premier: That’s provided for.) Mr Richardson said the Premier would find it wa3 not properly provided for. In conclusion, he moved the following amendinent to give expression’ to his views:— That this House will agree to read the Bill a second time, so soon as the schedule has been amended, so as to provide for completing or carrying to a working point unfinished railways before-new-lines are commenced ; that, therefore, the items “ Blenheim-Tophouse, L 68.000,” and “ Westport-Inangahua, L 63,000” be struck out, and the item “ permanent way, sleepers, and rolling stock, L 370,000 ’’ be reduced by L 44.000, being the proportionate amount proposed to be expended out of the item on the aforesaid lines, and that the sum of L 175,000 so saved be allocated in the following proportions :—To the main trunk line, Helensville North, be given L 35,000; to the Napier-Palmerston line, 145,000 ; to the Blen-heim-Awatere line, L 25.000; to the OtagoCentral, L 60.000 additional ; and to the Seaward Bush line LIO.OOO additional. The SPEAKER ruled the amendment in PREMIER said it would mean that the second reading could come up again next day,, The SPEAKER said it would.

Mr DA.BSAVILLE said although "he seconded the. amendment pro forma, he ■*» could not .disguise from himself the fact that the object of it was to enable members who had already spoken to speak again. With reference to Mr Bryce's speech as "to the, policy of the Government being broken down, he would ask the. hon gentleman whether be thought the policy of the Native Minister had broken down. He pointed ;Out that MV Bryce’s policy was one of coercion, while Mr Ballance’s was one of forbearance and moderation. He would like to know which policy was most successful. There was no doubt that the policy of the present Native Minister was by far the most successful. He held that if the construction of the North Island railway was dependent on Mr Bryce’s method of obtaining land along -that line the youngest member of the House would have become an octogenarian before ifr was completed. He contended that neither in Native matters nor in the acquisition of land for settlement had Mr Bryce’s chargee against the Native Minister been sustained?. He pointed out that Mr Bryce had recently gained great popularity, but it was not in connection with his public character, and his former colleagues had evidently used him. as a stalking horse in order to restore their lost. prestige. He referred to Major Atkinson as a gentleman who was well able to bewilder his audience with figures, as he had done in his speech in this debate. He charged the hon gentleman’s Government with having spent a very large ■ amount in public works, the p-rineipal product > of which, he said, was the support given to the Government. The hon member had alluded to the “ change of front the Government had shown, but the changes of front of the previous Government were so sudden, so extraordinary, that they were like a phantasmagoria before the eyes of the people. Where was the great compulsory national insurance scheme—the Bill to charge lands benefited by new railways with the expenses of those railways—the denominational education scheme—the Civil Service retrenchment proposals—the Bill to authorise the issue of a quarter of a million of debentures in the Colony? Where were all these? Gone—vanished ! The hon gentleman ought - ’ to be the last to twit anybody with a change of front. He went on to show that Major Atkinson now sat side by side with Mr Wakefield who had written such scathing articles against him ; with Mr Rolleston, who had so strongly opposed the abolition of provinces of which Major Atkinson was the apostle ; and with Mr Bryce, who was “ expelled” from the Government some years ago because he insisted on marching 500 or 600 armed men into Parihaka. This to show the inconsistency of Major Atkinson. He (Mr Dargaville) did not entirely approve of the Governments proposals. He disapproved of LIOO.OOO being taken out of the Trunk Line loan. He held that school buildings should be made out of public money, and, he hoped that the Government would make a proposal in that direction. He gave the Government credit for being the first to propose to do something in connection with the North of Auckland line. He hoped they would prosecute this matter further, for he held that this and the Otago Central were the two lines that had the greatest claim on the Colony. He was sorry to hear the Premier say that he did intend to borrow next year, because he believed that the circumstances of the Colony would demand a loan next year of about L 1,250,000. In times of prosperity it would be well enough to cease borrowing; but a time like this, when there were so'many people suffering for want of work, was not the time to “ taper offand he hoped to hear the Premier say, before the session was over, that he would reconsider the promise—hastily given, he understood —to the the leader of the Opposition.

Dr NEWMAN said the hon member whohad just sat down had accused Major Atkinson of “ phantasm.agqrical changes ”■; but as a matter of fact no one had made more “ phantasmagorical changes ” than the hon member himself. Major Atkinson had been consistently in opposition for two years ; but the hon member (Mr Dargaville) had not, and no one could say where he would be next year, or the year after. Dr Newman went on to say that he was glad that the amendment had been proposed, and he hoped the Government would accept it. One sentence in the Public Works Statement, he though, was for his especial benefit, and it justified him in opposing contracts being given to Natives because it stated that the prices the Natives asked were too high. He went further, and objected to giving the Natives 8s a day, when the unemployed were asking for work at a little more than half that. Regarding working railways ho thought the Government were doing as well as they could ; but he thought the Minister for Public Works was to blame for the reproaches made upon him, because he had, before he was in office, represented to the . people that he could cure all the existing evils. He (Dr. Newman) pointed out the difficulties which had arisen in consequence of the Treasurer omitting in his Financial Statement to take his liabilities into consideration. He objected to the proposal to take part of the North Island trunk line loan for other purposes, and said he should move to amend the North Island Railway Loan Application Bill by altering the title of the Bill to “ North Island Railway Loan Abstraction Bill.” Ho , contended that the Government would have toraise a loan next year. He hoped the Government would do something to the NapierWoodville line, and would accept the amendment. He did not think any other body of men than the Government would have proposed such a schedule as that attached to this Bill, and he could not understand on what basis it had been drawn up. He expressed his belief in the soundness and future prosperity of the Colony, and his idea of borrowing was that they.must not be too squeamish about it in hard times. He asked the Premier to recognise and fill his position. In conclusion, Dr Newman said he shouid support the second reading of the Bill and the amendment. The PREMIER said he should not have spoken had the amendment not been moved. He had listened to many debates, but this was certainly the most peculiar one he had ever heard. Instead of the leader of the Opposition, the hon member for Waitotara had addressed the House, dealine with certain Acts of maladministration by the Government. They had Mr Ormond, and then the leader of the Opposition also intimated that if the members of the Government did speak he would find means to reply ? Was all this by accident ? Why they knew that in a room not far away there had been frequent meetings to consider whether the schedule could not be altered. The hon member for Mataura had been decided on as the mover, and in order to please him the Seaward Bush line was put in. (Laughter.) This amendment was one the Government; could not accept. They would not allowthe Opposition to dictate to them as to the terms of the schedule of theirBill, and if the amendment was carried other Ministers would have te sit on the Government benches. The Premier went on, to explain that his colleague (the Colonial Treasurer) baing unwell, it had been decided that he (the Premier) should reply. He expressed surprise that the Himutangi block question had been \ brought up again—he thought it was decided

ast session. He quoted the action of the Legislative Council in 1883 and 1885 ln eupporting the claim, which was paid, and the ewortof the Native Affairs Committee (agreed ♦o when no member of the Government was present) in favor of the claims. Touching ppon the speech of Mr Ormond, he said that was a most peculiar one. The non gentleman said there was no policy m the Public Works Statement. What policy was there in a Public Works Statement . Ihe hon gentleman said the Statement did not grapple with the question in a statesmanlike manner; but he (the Premier) had waited in vain to hear the hon member grapple with it in such a way. He was surprised to hear the hon member wind up with “a sort of whine that his district had not got enough. As to roads he (the Premier) still thought the Government was spending too much on roads. It might be necessary to assist the work ot colonisation, but they must not get the local bodies into a habit of looking to the consolidated fund for assistance. If the present system of local government was not sufficient, then the blame rested with Mr Ormondand tho.-e who acted with him. The Colonial Treasurer was to blame to a certain extent, but he was absent from the Colony when the Abolition of Pro* vinces Bill was carried. As to immigration, he believed in inducing people to come here, but not in borrowing mpney for the purpose. * Be 5 accused the hon member for Napier and ' others of supporting everything that shifted • burdens from property and land on to the consolidated fund. He warned the hon member and other large property owners that if this ■ was done to such an extent the ultimate result would be that the burdens on the land would be increased, He should not refer to the speech of Mr Moss, because he was unable to understand it. Mr Macarthur seemed to be troubled about expenditure on the Wanganui River. The hon member for Waikato made one of his usual humorous commentaries on the Statement. The hon mem-, her for Mount Ida’s (Mr Scobie Mackenzie) speech was a rehash of the speech he made to his constituents, which advocated economy, the abolition of the gold duty and the Otago .... Central. The hon member for Hawkes Bay (Captain Russell) followed the lead of other hon members by asking for money for his own district (Captain. Russell : Incorrect.) Tha Premier reiterated his statement. (Captain Russell said he had deprecated all borrowing, but since the Premier would have it, thought some of it should be spent in his district.) The Premier said the hon gentleman, then, was opposed to borrowing, but had not the self-abnegation to stand out. Sir Robert next dealt with Mr Fergus’ * speech. He pointed out, in doing so, that the cheapest line yet constructed in this Colony was made by the Government. The ‘ 1 Government could have retained Mr Allison Smith by giving him another LIOO a year. (Mr Fergus: What about Mr Back?) He could not say about Mr Back. He . would point out that officers in other colonies got higher salaries than in New Zealand. He wanted to know what was meant by those who persistently asked for reform in railway management. Would hon members do with les3 trains, less officers, less accommodation ? The Government was in this difficulty, that it had certain cast-iron rates of freight to observe'all over the Colony. It could not make arrangements and give concessions as a private i person or business firm could do. He saw great dancer in handing over the railways to non-political and irresponsible Boards. It would mean that Democracy would be a failure. If Parliament could not control the railways—if the railways had to be handed over to Boards—then Democracy failed.. As to the schedules of the Bill, the Government had attempted to carry out as far as possible what they laid down in 1884, viz., to bring the railways to paying points. They had been guided in this by their experts. The Seaward Bush line was at a paying point. If they did not spend money on Switzers line, money would be lying waste. Money to be spent on the Otago Central would take it on, though not to a very well paying point. As to the Napier - Palmerston line, it was absurd to talk of carrying it to a paying point till the Gorge line was completed. Why did the Napier people not ask for the Gorge line ? Because they knew that it would take away their traffic. He could see that the sudden completion of the Gorge line was simply giving a premium to those who would, he was sure, attempt to force the Governmenf to buy the Wellington-Manawatu line at a large price. The object of the amendment, he said, was to play into the hands of the large landholders in the Blenheim-Awatere line locality. He knew the pressure that had been brought to bear on the Government in connection with this line. As to the BlenheimTophouse, the Government was only asking this year for surveys. With reference to the North Island trunk line loan, it was entirely wrong to say the money had been frittered away on roads and river works. They had L 109.300 in railway work proper, and the amount spent on roads, stations, &c., was very much less. It was objected that the LIOO,OOO for purchase of Native lands should not come out ot the loan. Where then was it to come from ? Under the Native Land Administration Bill there would be less need to borrow for Native land purchases than there had been in the past. Coming to the question of general borrowing, he believed the Colony could not go on borrowing for all kinds of works. He believed that out of its consolidated fund public buildings should be made, and that roads should be largely made by local bodies. He could not agree that roads were more important than railways, and pointed out that in India the railways had been such an aid to i produce as to enable producers there to go into the markets of ‘ the world. And it would be impossible for this Colony to compete under favorable cir-i cumstances unless they had railways. —by which alone cheap carriage could be obtained. He denied that his views on borrowing had changed. He said now as he said before that those who wished to make this a prosperous colony must be careful in borrowing. In a few years the Colony must stop borrowing, and he asked the House to face that. . He had asked them in reference to school buildings, and did they support him ? He said that the time was coming when they must stop borrowing, and meet their expenditure by direct and indirect taxation. But hon members would not face that. They would have no burdens put on the people—land must not be touched. In the Civil Service Bill how had he been met when he. proposed economy ? The House was not sincere in its economy. What was being dene now, by this amendment ? Why did not the hon gentleman propose to strike out at once the amount they said was unnecessary in the schedule? The very fact of the hon member for Mataura moving the amendment showed that the Opposition were not sincere in their economy. He assured them that he understood how the matter had been arranged—how the probable feelings of the Marlborough, - Wellington, and Auckland members had been considered. The only hope of stopping borrowing was by beginning to cast what they could on localities and the consolidated fund — that was how they must “ edge off ’ * He looked forward to the time when the Colony would only need to borrow about half instead of a million. Next

year the Government would throw off of loan about LIOO,OOO for defence and a large amount for roads —about L 38.000 in one vote; and he expected, having gone deeply into the question, that Public Works Estimates would be half next year what they were this. He . expressed an opinion that if members of the House would meet the Government instead of making so many demands upon them they would have more economy. ' But the Government were doing their test to induce economy, having in view, first, that the people should not be overburdened with taxation ; secondly, that the Colony should not be overburdened by debt; and also to prepare for the time, which was not far distant, when the Colony would not have to go on to the London market to borrow. In conclusion, Sir Robert asked the House not to pass the amendment. If the schedule could be amended it could be amended in committee. If the votes ■•< could, be struck out then let the money be saved ; but he asked the House to meet the Government in a fair and generous spirit, and to show that hon members were consistent in their wishes for the future benefit of the Colony and the prosperity of the Colony. (The hon gentleman concluded amidst a perfect volley of cheers.) Major ATKINSON said it gave him pleasure to listen to the powerful and eloquent speech of the Premier, because it showed that the hon gentleman had taken a different action to that which .he had hitherto taken. It showed that the hon gentleman had at last risen to his position. He hoped the hon gentleman would retain his position, because he was, no doubt, the best man they could get for the position. But on this condition—that the hon gentleman asserted and stood to the speech he had that night made. Had the hon gentleman ever made a stand in accordance with the speech he had made ? In the first place under what conditions had he joined the Colonial Treasury? The Treasurer not go into office on a policy of “ tapering off.” The Premier told them they must avoid borrowing if they were not to get into great difficulties. How had he 1 , proposed to effect economy? Not by that wretched Civil Service Bill,, which proposed to regulate the service by the price of potatoes ? The hon gentleman came into office pledged to give . a better system of local government. ‘ In this he was to be assisted by Mr Ormond ; but it was only ignorance that made the Premier take that step. So soon as he had been through the Colony he found that “a revolution would not benefit the Colony,” and a new system must be built up by stages. Since then they had seen this wonderful system built up. The economy the hon gentleman had led the House to was that of putting charges on local rates from the Consolidated. Fund. The Treasurer had had the pleasure of coming down and telling the House that he could reduce the property tax one-sixteenth of a penny. That was indeed a climax; and the country, must be glad to see such an economical administration. The hon member for Napier (Mr Ormond) had left the Government because he thought they had become apostate. But he (Major Atkinson) congratulated the Government, on having at last found out what had been known bn the other side of the House for many years. The Premier said that . was meant by. railway reform. Must he refer him to his colleague the Minister for Public Works ? The Minister for Public Works, after all this experience, had now to admit that he had found out that he must make weekly alterations in the tariff. (The Minister for Public Works : That’s done on every railway in the world.) Major Atkinson said that would be a clincher if the Premier had not just told them that the rates were fixed. Well, they were to have Boards of Management for the railways. That was in the Governor's Speech, for which, of course, the Premier was responsible. But now the Premier spoke in another strain. In fact he had taken the trouble to took into a matter of which he knew nothing when he allowed it to be mentioned in the Governor’s Speech. They were getting quite used to the members contradicting each other. He knew the time when such a speech as the Premier’s, after the Minister for Public Works, would have caused the latter retire, but with this Government it was different, and mattered nothing, though they differed in the most fundamental matters of policy. However, he was glad to see that they were to have no more of the boards, despite the predeliction of the Public. Works Minister, and no doubt the next Public Works Statement would contain a statement that the Premier was opposed to them. With reference to the amendment, Major Atkinson said the statement was quite new to the House to postpone the construction of . the NapierPalmerston line till the Woodville gap was completed, and when it was completed the traffic would be by the other line. It was always understood that the WellingtonManawatu line was to connect there. The E resent Minister for Public Works, had een aware of that. He (Major Atkinson) said it was right that the gap should be completed. That, the Government would have to buy the Manawatu line he had' no doubt, for he held that the railways must be owned by the Government, and it was only on account of the pressure brought to bear on the Government that the line was allowed to be privately constructed. He ventured to say that the Company would not allow the connecting links between Wellington and Napier, and Wellington and New Plymouth to. remain unopened. With regard to the Blenheim-Top-house line, the Premier said he was only asking for surveys, but he did not say that, he was going to ask for L 109,000 for .this line, which he would earmark, and which consequently could be used for no other purpose. As to the Awatere line, the Premier was going to carry it on, although he asked whether the House was going to “ benefit ths large landowners ” by carrying on.the line, was now proposing to carry it on himself. The Premier never thought of defending the Tophouse line. (An Hon Member : Yes.) Well, he was sorry tor him then, because he did not see there were any arguments to be made in favor of it. He understood the Premier was willing to assist the House in reducing the loan by means of votes of new works. Well, the Opposition would be glad to assist him to do that. The member for Mataura’s amendment was only made to keep the money in, because other lines were not being carried to paying points. It might be as well, however, looking at former loans, to spend the money they were raising in this way. The Premier asked where he was to get the LIOO,OOO for Native land purchase if he could not get it out of the trunk line loan. Where, indeed ? There was nowhere to get it from, because the LBOO.OOO had been . dispelled long ago. And the Premier might now well be asked, Where are you going to get it? The Premier complained that the House did not “rise to the occasion ” when he wanted to charge school buildings locally. But did the hon gentleman tell them what he was proposing to do ? No, he brought in a few clauses which would enable him next year to astonish the House by saying, Did you not agree to these clauses ? The proposal was not made openly, but in a sly, sneaking way. He ventured to say that the House wanted economy, and to reduce the loans. He would ask the Premier

if he was sincere. If he was let him take up his stand that night and say he would effect economy. • Let . him say that he would make reductions in certain directions, and he would guarantee that he would receive hearty support.. With regard to the loan, “ taper off” said the hon gentleman, “ If the items are not wanted strike them off.” Let the hon gentleman assist to strike them off. That schedule would have to be amended considerably. Let the hon gentleman rise to his position and the House would follow him. The hon gentleman laughed, but if he did this the responsibility would be off his shoulders. For roads and other purposes, large votes would be required next year, and next year the Government would ' have to ask' large votes. Then he begged the Premier, as the Premier had begged of the House to be sincere. (Cheers.) The COLONIAL TREASURKR said the House had" heard the ■ great speech of the Premier, and the little speech of ihe'leader of the Opposition. He deprecated the patronising way in which the hon gentleman spoke of the Premier. He denied that he had come back to the House pledged to a large borrowing policy. Sir Julius went on to deal with a number of questions which had been raised during the debate. Major Atkinson, he said, did not move the amendment because he knew .there was no chance of it. He (the Treasurer) had yet to learn that there was any general desire for economy. As to the amendment, it was too obvious an attempt at getting support from members of this district and that district. He submitted that the amendment, although strictly correct, was contrary to the spirit of the constitution ; and further, the amendment proposed was one that could not be put by the Chairman of Committees because it increased a vote. The Treasurer proceeded to criticise the speeches of hon members who had spoken during the debate, accusing Major Atkinson of trying to draw him out as to his future borrowing policy when he well knew that any statement in that direction would strongly affect the negotiation of future loans. He considered Mr Montgomery ungrateful, and asked why that hon gentleman joined him in .1884.. He did not propose to borrow for the purpose of employing labor. He submitted that the Government was carrying out a policy of decentralisation, cultivating relations with the Natives, and promoting settlement. These were the broad features of the Government policy, and if hon members would deal with the broad features of the policy, instead of attacking the minor points, it would be much better.

Mr MONTGOMERY said he joined the Government of the present Premier he would not have joined a Government led by Sir Julius Vogel. Why was he now in opposition to the Premier? He proceeded to explain that he had been forced into opposition by the failure of the Government to carry out their pledge in regard to the repeal of the property tax, the establishment of a sound finance, etc. He pointed out that the Colony if it had agreed to the proposals of the Treasurer—that magnificent financier—they would have authorised the construction of the East and West Coast Railway at a very much greater cost than the present contract would entail. He made this statement in order that it might not go forth that he had joined Sir Julius Vogels Government. Sir JULICJS VOGEL said the Government was formed by him, and Mi Montgomery knew it. Mr ROLLESTON expressed a hope that the Government would not press the matter at that hour (it being then past two o’clock). Mr OONOLLY moved the adjournment of the debate.

Major ATKINSON spoke in favor of the adjournment. Mr TURNBULL pointed out that the question was one of the existence of the Government now.

After some further discussion, The PREMIER offered to adjourn if the amendment was put and carred. The motion for adjournment was lost by 33 to 26.

Mr ROLLESTON then took up the debate, commencing by expressing an opinion that the Government would have done a graceful and prudent act by adjourning the debate. He alluded to the dissensions apparent in the Government, and to the disposition of the Treasurer to browbeat hon members. He asked whether the Treasurer did not now, in his cooler moments, feel ashamed of what he had saiffi He referred to the manner in which the Treasurer had used his position as an agent of the Colony at Home —how he had on one occasion said he could have permanently injured the credit of agents of the Colony if he had chosen to do so—how he had come to the Colony leaving a newspaper train behind him—and now appeared on the scene—a patriot, forsooth. Mr Rolleston defended the administration of the previous Government, and referring to the Treasurer’s assertion that his name would live after Mr Montgomery’s, reminded the hon gentleman that “ the evil men do lives after them.” He proceeded to discuss the Public Works Statement at some length. The debate proceeded till 5.15 a.m., at which hour it was adjourned till 2.30 p.m. TUESDAY, JULY 27. The House met-at 2.30. CATHEDRAL SITE (PARNELL) LEASING BILL. Mr PEACOCK moved the second reading of this Bill, which was agreed to. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. questions. The PREMIER suggested that the questions should be postponed, as the Government had not been able to prepare answers to all of them. This was agreed to. BILLS INTRODUCED. Bills were introduced, and read the first time, as follows : —Sir R. Stout, the Property Assessment Act Amendment Bill (in committee) ; Mr Tole, the Rabbit Act, 1882, Amendment Bill; Sir J. Vogel, the Public Revenues Bill. THE UNEMPLOYED. Sir GEORGE GREY suggested that the Government should allow Mr Moss’ question, as to what steps the Government proposed to take to aEsist the unemployed, to come on. 'lhe PREMIER hoped that the hon member would wait until next day, when the Government would Btate what had been done. He might state that the matter had not been lost sight of by the Government, who had done what they could. Mr MOSS said the complaint made to him was that the Government had not done anything to assist the unemployed (and he read telegrams to that effect). He understood that the Government had offered to spend LSOO among these people, and also that the Government had offered 4s a day to the men, while they were paying Natives, who were not badly off, but had land, 6s a day. Mr HATCH thought the people of Auckland should attempt to do something for the assistance of the unemployed. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said the Government was taking and had taken steps to provide for the sudden demand for employment in Auckland. At the same time the Government, as far as could be learned, found that the local authorities did

appear to have done what had been done in other parts of the Colony—to assist. At the present time any unemployed disposed to work could obtain employment on the gum fields. The great difficulty was that the men would not leave the towns under any consideration whatever. No doubt the Government would be able to ask for works on the Supplementary Estimates which would give employment to these men ; but he again expressed regret.that the local authorities had not done more to meet the difficulty. In answer to Sir George Grey, the MINISTER explained that the Government officials had been instructed to supply free passes to men who went to work on the gum fields. Mr WI PERE regretted that the question as to treatment of Native prisoners had not been able to come on, and he asked whether the Minister could not answer the question. The NATIVE MINISTER said the Native prisoners were being treated exactly the same as European prisoners. Mr HOBBS ridiculed the suggestion that the unemployed should go to the gumfields. Mr MOSS, replying, pointed out that the unemployed were under different conditions now to those of former times. He denied, in reference to the matter of the prisoners, that he was asking the question on behalf of the Native prisoners. He tabled the question on behalf of all prisoners.. .-f ' •

PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT DEBATE. The adjourned debate on the second reading of the Loan Bill was resumed. Mr COWAN said there had been so much said on this debate that he was afraid there was very little he could say th it was new. He likened the debate to a no-confidence debate, the blank in which was supplied by the amendment of Mr G. F. Richardson. He hoped the amendment would not be carried, although he was by no means satisfied with the schedule of the Bill. Neither did he approve of new lines being opened until the present ones were extended to paying points. Regarding railway management he said the only way to popularise the railways was by reducing the charges. He was in favor of such reductions, and would support them. It appeared to him, too, that the staff employed might be reduced. At the same time it was evident from the Public Works Statement that the management was good. The question of railway boards was one requiring a great deal of consideration, and he hoped the Government would put their matured opinions on this matter into the shape of a Bill. At any rate he did not think the South Island railways, could be well managed from Wellington. It was like the London lines being managed by a person in France. He considered the Public Works policy, and not the Government, was to blame for the present absence of party lines ( . and so long as the Government had the distribution of borrowed money, so long they would be dependent for their position upon giving an equitable share to each district of the Colony of the money borrowed. Mr SUTTER, who characterised the finance of the Government as “ finance with a vengeance,” said they were asked to borrow, not a million and a half, but two millions; He combatted the arguments of the Premier as regarded the economy of the Government, and the proposal that had been made as to school buildings. Mr T. THOMPSON said he was not a supporter of the Government, and he was opposed to excessive borrowing. He thought the borrowing proposals had been brought down as far as they could. He did not object to the amount, but to the manner in which it was proposed to spend it. He considered the proper time to alter the schedule was in committee. He was in the same position over this as he was in connection with Captain Russell’s amendment last session. He considered there was no real economy in that proposal. The state of the labor market indicated to him the desirability of passing the Public Works Estimates as soon as possible, in order to provide employment for labor. That was another reason why he should support the second reading of the Bill. He objected to the Government keeping back the vote for the Auckland Customhouse at Auckland, and said there was no real economy in such an action. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND said the argument of Mr Cowan went to show that so long as the Government would agree to purchase the Waimea Plains railway, so long Mr Cowan would support them. (i’he hon member was called on to withdraw this, and did so.) Mr Buckland went on to speak at some length, opposing borrowing. Mr LAKE could not see what the Government objected to in the amendment. For if the Premier was sincere in his protestations of economy, then Mr G. F. Richardson had met him half way. Referring to Mr Dargaville’s speech, he said that gentleman should be the last to speak of Major Atkinscn’s change of front, for it was not so long since they saw the hon member parading about as the leader of a non-existent party. Nor was it long since, as the leader of that “ party,” the hon member, wrote to Major Atkinson saying he was prepared to treat. Proceeding, Mr Juake disapproved of the manner in which the Government proposed to deal with the North Island trunk line loan. He complained that the money spent for this line had not been accounted for. He asked where was the evidence of the expenditure of LI3OO on the Wanganui River ? Mr W. C. BUCHANAN said the speech of Mr Fergus had been described by the Premier as full of sound and fury ; but it appeared to him that the House, having had time to consider the speech of the Premier, must conclude that that also was full of sound and fury, The Premier had accused the members of the Opposition of localism, but he (Mr Buchanan) charged the Government with having been actuated with localism of the worst kind in many (instances —in the district railways proposal, and the Charitable Aid Act, for instance. He would ask whether he had not given the Government a fair support in that Act. What about the Government’s localism regarding Justices of the Peace ? Mr Beetham, because he was not a Government supporter, could not get Justices in one part of his district ; and he had the same cause of complaint, because in one populous centre of his district there was only one Justice, in spite of frequent representations of the necessity for further appointments. He denied that the Government had saved money to producers in the North Island by reducing railway freight charges. He contended that the amendment of Mr G. F. Richardson met the Premier’s remarks by proposing to carry on uncompleted works. He asked where the Premier had ever proposed to “taper off ” borrowing? The Premier told them that his views had never changed in regard to borrowing ; yet he had associated himself from the first with the Treasurer, who might be called the very incarnation of borrowing. Since these two gentlemen had been, associated, the drift of public opinion had decided which way the tail of the dog should be wagged. He had the greatest respect for the .Premier, and regretted that he would not insist on his position. But at present the hon gentleman always “ tapered off ” in the wrong direction, and no doubt it would always be the same while the Treasurer was in office. After touching on various matters of Government policy, Mr Buchanan said he failed to see where the re-

forms of administration had been effected By the Government. He was interrupted by the 5.3(T adjournment.

EVENING SITTING^

The House resumed at 7.30. ' - / Mr BUCHANAN, continuing his remarks, denied that Captain Russell’s, motion had haa the effect of reducing the price of labor. In conclusion, he hoped the Premier would .do more to put his speech of the previous evening into operation than he had done in the past. • Mr TAYLOR said he had listened to the “sugar and vitriol” speeches of members of the Opposition. The sugar had been given to the Premier, and the vitriol had been rubbed into the Treasurer. He deprecated the manner in which hon members were continually accusing the Treasurer of saying things which he denied. He would ask the Opposition whether they were prepared to act like their prototype .of old—Judas Iscariot —(laughter)—and sell the country for a few pieces of silver just because they wanted to sit on the Government; benches. These gentlemen were well - known placehunters. (This expression was withdrawn.) He pointed out that there were a number of gentlemen in the Honse who had missions. Some would be Colonial Treasurer’s —others Ministers for Public Works ; and it was a fact that these gentlemen when they got on the Treasury benches were *? off their chumps.” There was the member fer Wakatipu (Mr Fergus) who was admitted by his friends to be “a shingle short ” when he talked about Public Works. (Laughter.) It had been said that the Government were wearing the Opposition clothes ; but was: it not a fact that the late Government never had any clothes to wear—(laughter)—except a suit which they “ prigged ” from the Grey Governmenfc, &nd which “ didn’t fit.” In fact when, they left office, if Mr Bryce had not reserved a Native mat in case of emergency, the late Government would have gone off the benches with less on than it was said Adam and Eve wore. (Laughter and cheers.) He . thought he might treat the subject in this way. This was was variety, if it was nothing else. (Laughter.) Having congratulated the Speaker on possessing the patience —which was a virtue of long-suffering —to listen to the dreary platitudes that had been uttered, Mr Taylor sat down amidst cheers. Mr LOCKE said he should vote for the second reading of the hill, objecting to amendments of this character being brought down by private members. Sir GEORGE GREY said he had heard a great deal about “ giving New Zealand another chance,” which was to be done by extensive borrowing. He would point, however, that there might be abundance of money and yet no prosperity in the nation. England was an instance of that. For this Colony to get more than it knew what to do with might: be anything but a blessing. He did not say that we should have no more borrowed money. At present they were paying interest out of borrowed money ; and if borrowing was suddenly stopped, the Colony would have to send out a million and a half to England, which would entail very disastrous consequences. Therefore, they must go on borrowing for a time. But they must do something to avert the perils with which they were threatened, He complained that the Land for Setttement Bill, which had died stillborn —which had been sacrificed to a ball —would have assisted in averting these perils. He contended that the State should own the railroads, and that Great Britain should offer facilities to people to come to the colonies and settle. He attributed to the system of railway management In this Colony the existence of the unemployed. The appearance of so many unemployed in the cities was becoming a very alarming spectacle, He knew there were many hard working families who were plunged in great distress at present, and those people should not La kept out of employment, as it was a great loss indirectly to the whole community. He contended also, although it was an unpopular sentiment, that those men should receive a fair day’s wages. He hoped, then, that in raising the new loan the Government would consider this question, and endeavor to act with fairness to tlioso people. It would be asked what could be given to the unemployed. He would say let them open up roads to Crown lands, and he felt sure employment could be found for them. With regard to the proposed expenditure, he objected to the purchase of Native lands, as giving undue power to the Government. Great powers had recently been given to the Government that ought not to nave been given. The purchase of buildings for the Government Insurance Association, for instance. Those purchases ought to have been brought specifically before Parliament. The same thing took place with regard to defence purchases, He believed,too, that a great deal could be saved in the way of general expenditure. If the population was increased by men able to work their own farms, and spending money on them, great reductions could be made. One other subject he • must deal with was that the plan he proposed by the Bill which he had alluded to would have had. the effect of breaking up large estates ; and if those large estates were not broken up, it was certain that within a few years there would be a population here as miserable, as destitute, and as badly off as the present miserable population of England. The other night Captain Russell had spoken of the men who encouraged the great borrowing policy and then left the Colony, leaving to others to bear the consequences. And when he (Sir George Grey) saw men being honored at Home as the representatives of the Colony, ■ and knew that many of these were the men alluded to —who had repudiated their debts—he said to himself, Who are the true colonists ? He hoped, in conclusion, that the House would insist on the reduction of expenditure. (Cheers.) Mr BEVAN protested against the tone the debate"had taken. He objected to the gloomy speech of Mr Bryce, and quoted from a speech made by that gentleman when he was chairman of a banquet given to Sir Julius Vogel some years ago, when he had “ looked with doubts into the future, but felt sure that all would be well with Sir Julius Vogel at the wheel.” Mr Bevan went on to criticise previous speeches, r eraarking that many hon gentlemen thought that they were lexicons, and like lexicons, were bound in calf. He spoke of Mr Rolleston as one whose name was a byword and a reproach, and likened the Opposition to the political Agnews of the Treasury benches. He objected to Mr Montgomery saying that he would not sit in Sir Julius Vogel’s cabinet. No man was too good to sit on a Government with the Treasurer. He thought too much deference was paid to Sir George Grey. The orator, indeed ! The man who would shift those gifted minds off the Government benches. Mr HATCH spoke at some length on the necessity of effecting reform in the manner in which the railways were worked, and he ex- ! pressed an opinion that a great deal could be saved in connection with the working of stations, &c. The department seemed to want to grab all they could . He blamed the Government for not finishing on Saturday morning, the consequence of which was that hon members had to stay until 5 o'clock on Monday morning, vomiting out mud on the ,Tarawera principle. With regard to the_>

amendment, he thought it was “toothin’’to the House to upset the business of the ..country on this account. „ _ Mr DOD3ON said he had no confidence at all in the Government, although he had every respect for several members of it. The speech of the Premier wa3 a credit to himself and the Colony, but he could not say the same for the Treasurer’s. There was a most distinct dif- . ference between the two speeches, the one i being in favor of borrowing, and the other in favor of no borrowing. With regard to the Blenheim-Tnphouse Line, it was not necessary until the Midland Railway was completed, and he was quite willing, therefore, that the money should rather be spent onthe BlenheimAwatere line. He approved of the Native Minister’s policy, but thought it would have been of no use if it had not been for the vigorous policy of Mr Bryce. He expressed satisfaction at the action of the Premier in putting his foot down. He deprecated the argument of the Treasurer that hon members should not discuss the question of future loans, and hoped that the hon gentleman would now get a lesson, and himself abstain from talking so much about future borrowing. He (Mr Dodson) supported the amendment. ■ Mr DUNCAN criticised the speech of Mr Rolleston, and deprecated that gentlemans attacks on Sir Julius Vogel. He thought the hon gentleman had lost his head. -the hon gentleman had said there were two classes in £ the Government —one represented by the Premier, and the other by the Treasurer—but the hon gentleman himself could only be classed with the Treasurer. « With regard to Mr Buchanan, Mr Duncan pointed out that the hon gentleman wanted to get the Opposition b&cl£ into office, in order that he might get *.or his district what he and the other Wairarapa member got under the Roada and Bridges Construction Act. He, Mr Duncan, supported the amendment. -• Mr BRUCE said the position of the House was a proof that it is the unexpected that happens. There they were in the throes of a noconfidence debate, and it was impossible to say what would happen in the next day or two. He did not look on this as a no-confidence debate. If it were, he should either vote with the Government or not vote at all, for he considered that a no-confidence motion should be brought down by a leader of the party. _ He denied that the Opposition were anxious to get into office ; and he maintained that the policy of the Government was really the policy of the previous Government. Referring to the Premier’s remark about,.the Manawatu. line, Mr Bruce argued that it was necessary to complete the Government line to Palmerston. He was in favor of economy, but he was not prepared to say that the borrowing policy had been a failure. He considered, however, that It had had a most demoralising effect on the country, and for that reason he desired to “taper off.” He would support a Goi vorhment that would propose a borrowing policy of L 1,000,000 a year and upend it on reproductive works. He expressed • admiration of the Native policy of Mr Bryce. He asked the Premier to nail his colors to the mast and carry out the speech be made the night before. He supported the amendment because it appeared to him to travel in the right direction. . Mr GORE thought the proper time to bring the amendment forward was in committee on the Bill, and he opposed it. o Mr BEETHAM tUid he should support the extension of the railway to Eketahuna. He thought the Gorge line, if completed, would materially assist the revenue from the lines to the north of it; and the Wellington-Manawatu line would also assist the traffic on tn© Taranaki and Napier lines. He was not in favor of a railway policy as against roads, and he was convinced that the money to be spent on taking the railway up to Woodville would have been mnch more beneficial if spent in roads. Roads in i bu3h country were more important than railways. He remarked that L2BO would be all the money Wairarapa would get for theyear for opening up Grown lands, although Wai- , ravapa East would have a claim for damages on account of railway extension. With regard to Mr Duncan’s reference to the amount the Wairarapa counties received under the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, he thanked the hon member and others who had brought it up, because it showed that the Wairarapa members had understood the Act, and had looked after the interests of their constituents. (Mr Duncan : I am not blaming you ; I commend you for it.) Mr Beetham went on to say that he did not consider the Native land purchased by the Government was good .land. Some of it he had himself been over,and he would urge that money should be carefully spent in thi3 direction. With reference to the moneyspent on snagging, etc., on the Wanganui river, he went up the river in a steamer a little while ago, with certain legal luminaries of Wanganui. They went about 14 miles up. Then the steamer stuck on a rock, and the legal luminaries had to get out and pull for about an hour and a halflie did not think the Government wouldget A fair return for expenditure in this direction, and thought it was to a great extent useless to go on with snagging. He did not think that the Public Works Department exercised proper care in letting contracts, and instanced one or two occurrences in his own district as proving this. He thought contracts should not be let to men who did not understand the work. In conclusion, he expressed his intention of supporting the amendment. Mr BARRON, criticising the Premier’s speech, said the hon gentleman’s special training had evidently come to his assistance. If it was ever his misfortune to get into trouble he would ask no better advocate than the Premier. He submitted, however, that the whole effect of the Premier’s speech was that the hon gentleman was forced to submit to a policy which he had himself condemned. Mr Barron referred to the schemes of the Treasurer, and pointed out that while that gentleman complained of his self-sacrificing efforts to serve the Colony, he was actually engaged, while he was in the receipt of a large emolument from the Colony, in promoting his own interests in various joint stock companies, etc. He (tur Barron) submitted that there were lines in the schedule -which were not necessary. The cost of completing these lines would be very large, and thev had been put in because hon members from all parts of the Colony had to be consulted as to what public works they would like put in. The Government had appealed to the districts from which they expected to get that solid support which all Governments appreciated, this one better than any other he had met with. He disapproved of this borrowing for unreproduc .ive works as an adjunct to Paliamentary Government. He supported the amendment, remarking in conclusion that the members of the Government had shown in this debate that they were not like those foolish people who, in times gone past, went to the stake for the sake said the members of the Government though they spoke of the “ lie down and wait ” policy of the Opposition themselves, followed by a “ lie down and be kicked ” policy. He was glad that they had at last found out from the Premier what the policy of the Government really was to be, though he thought the Premier and the Treasurer might have been more united, .He

supported the amendment, and would like to see the amount of the loan reduced; and he hoped that in a few year 3 that the Premier’s prediction as to stopping borrowing would be fulfilled. ; . , , Mr LEVESTAM maintained that the Blenheim-Tophouse line wa3 a part of the South Island trunk scheme, and consequently a proposal to give a vote for it now was in accordance with the Financial Statement, where it indicated that lines should be pushed on to a completion. This concluded the debate. AMENDMENT NEGATIVED BY THIRTEEN. The division wa.s then taken on the question that the words. “The New_ Zealand Loan will now he read a second time ” stand part of the question (as against the amendment). Ayes, 30: —Messrs Bevan, Cadman, Duncan, Fitzherbert, Fraser, Gore, Guinness, Hatch, Holmes, Ivess, Lance, Larnach, Levestam, J. McKenzie. McMillan, O’Callaghan, Reese, Reid. G. Richardson, Ross, Samuel, Seddon, Smith, Stout, Taylor, T. Thompson, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel, Walker. _ Noes, 17.—Messrs Atkinson, Bruce, Buchanan, W. F. Buckland, Conolly, Fulton, Hamlin, H. Hirst, Hobbs, Lake, Macarthur, Montgomery, Newman, Gr. F. Richardson, Rolleston, Trimble, and Wilson. Pairs. —For : Macandrew,. O Conor, Ballance, Joyce, Harper, Locke, _Menteath, W. D Stewart, Major Steward, Pratt, Cowan, Brown, Garrick, Allwright, Hursthouse, Pere, Bradshaw, Grace, Dargaville, Pearson, Kerr, Coster. Against: Johnston, Moss, Peacock, Pyke, Russell, Gray, Barron, Wakefield, Moat, Scobie Mackenzie, Ormond, Hislop, J. W. Thomson, Fisher. Bryce, J. C. Buckland, Mitchelson, J. B. Whyte, Dodson, Fergus, Beetham, W. J. Hurst, Majority in favor of second reading—l 3. ■ The Bill was read a second time, and the committal set down for next sitting day. The House then (five minutes to 2) rose. WEDNESDAY, JULY 28. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. WAIfrIEA RAILWAY PURCHASE. Mr MOSS presented the report of the Public Accounts Committee on this purchase, and moved that the report and evidence be printed. The report was read by the Clerk, and the motion was carried.

SOUTHERN CROWN TENANTS. The Waste Lands Committee reported on the petition of Thomas Dryden and others, that it would be injudicious for the Colony to make concessions to one class unless general concessions were made. _ , The report was ordered to lie on the table and be referred to the Government for consideration. ORDER OP BUSINESS. The PREMIER moved that Government business have precedence on Thursdays. In answer to Mr Macandrew, the PREMIER said no doubt the Government would give a day to private members if the business went on qU Sir George GREY objected to the motion and divided the House on it. Ayes, 46; noes, 19. Motion agreed to. QUESTION. Sir GEORGE GREY asked the Government, Whether they will place a sum on the Supplementary Estimates to provide for the commencement daring the recess of an institution for the care and instruction of the blind in New Zealand ? ... The PREMIER said the matter had been considered -by the Government,- and'-he did not think the time had yet come tor such an institution as that referred to. The MINISTER of LANDS, in answer to Mr Hobb3j said the Government would consider the question of dealing with the gumfields during the recess. ■ Mr TAYLOR asked the Government, (1) If they will, during this session, amend the Stamp Act, .in the direction of. increasing the stamp composition paid by , the banks doing business , in the Colony for the . privilege of issuing bank-notes, from 2 per cent, to 4 per cent ? . (2) If no amendment can be made during this session, will the Government consider the question during the recess, with the object of introducing an amending Bill next session ? . . ■ - The TREASURER said the question would receive attention during the recess. The COLONIAL TREASURER, in answer to Mr Moat, said he would ascertain during the recess, whether any . telegraph offices could be closed at night with advantage. Mr HOBBS asked the Government,Whether they will, during the recess, take into considerathe low scale of pay, and long hours ruling, of the engine-drivers and firemen on the New Zealand Railways, as compared with the other colonies ? „ _ The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said the men had been classified, and wages had been increased t0,13s a day. He could not promise that anything further would be done. The MINISTER’for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to Mr Moss, said, regarding the unemployed at Auckland, that there were no Natives employed at 6s a day; they were working piece-work. The Government was in communication with the. local government officers with a view of giving employment. The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in answer to Mr Mos 3, said the practice of allowing tobacco in the prisons of the Colony had been absolutely extinguished. He did not consider tobacco a necessity, and thought it was unwise to change the present rule. The MINISTER of LANDS said there was no record in the Department of authority being given to Mr Pearson, to value land for the New Zealand Agiicultnral Company. He was not aware that the land was valued by that gentleman. Sir GEORGE GREY said it was so stated in the Company’s report. BILLS INTBODUCED. Bills were introduced and read a first time as follows : —Sir J. Vogel, the Public Trust Act Amendment Bill; the Government Life Insurance Bill; and the Property Tax Bill. TOBACCO IN PRISONS. Mr MOSS moved the adjournment of the House in order that he might speakon this question. He vigorously protested against the policy pursued by the Government in this matter. Mr TE AO reminded hon members that they might be placed in the same position as Te Whiti and the other prisoners. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the laws of the country would always be carried out, but he would point out that tobacco was absolutely necessary, because he had a difficulty in breathing. In the course of a discussion which ensued, Major ATKINSON pointed out that the circumstances of the Native prisoners were entirely changed when they went into the prison. At the same time, he did not at all agree with the general use of tobacco. The MINISTER of JUSTICE said the present regulations were those of the previous Minister of Justice. This was not a rule peculiar to New Zealand. _ With regard to this particular question, he visited the gaol on Sunday. He was hardly able to get in, there were so many members of the House there. He was sorry to see that, because it increased

the sense of martyrdom which Te Whiti and others had. Well, Te Whiti represented that he had a bad cheat, and needed tobacco. Te Whiti wa3 examined by a doctor next day, who reported that he had sounded him, and said he had never seen a sounder chest than Te Whiti s. (Laughter). He (the Minister) had visited most of the large prisons of the Colony, and had never heard any of these complaints. The PREMIER regretted that hon members had gone out of their way to bring the matter up. He thought the House wou’d da better if it had attempted to discourage smoking amongst the youth of the Colony, who were, he believed, degenerating from this cause. Mr MAO ARTHUR said he heard a great deal of talk about the poor man and the rich man. Now, this was a case in which the poor man suffered, because he was unable to get bail as the rich man was. He (Mr Macarthur) had the fullest sympathy with the member for Parnell in this matter. The debate was interrupted at 5.30 by the dinner adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. MINING COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was received from his Excellency with.an amendment, which was agreed to. GOLD DUTY BEDUCTION BILL. This Bill was committed. It was agreed to and reported, and read the third time and passed. BEER DUTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The TREASURER moved that this Bill be restored to tne Order Paper. This was agreed to. NORTH ISLAND MAIN TRUNK BAILWAY LOAN APPLICATION BILL. The TREASURER moved the second reading of this Bill. He pointed out that under the law as it at psesent stood the loan for the line could be applied to any public works. He took it that no one would oppose the purport of the Bill. The money was proposed by this Bill to be applied to objects all strictly part of the line, excepting the amount proposed for Native lands. He believed the Wellington, Auckland, and Taranaki members would make a mistake if they opposed that clause. The Government were proposing indeed to purchase what would be a magnificent and specific endowment for the purposes of the country connected with the line. The Government would propose to set this land apart for that purpose. A hundred thousand more or less would not prevent the Colony , from completing the line ; and therefore it could not be urged that this proposal stood in the way of the line. On the other hand he would point out that the endowment would expedite settlement m that district. Such an expenditure would not be refused in connection with any other line. If, as he understood, the Auckland members objected to it, it would be hard to have to say to them that the Government would apply the money to another loan. Major ATKINSON would have great pleasure in supporting the second reading of the Bill, but would consider it his duty to move to strike out the LIOO,OOO clause in committee. With regard to the endowment, he said the people of the North Island did not want any Buch side endowment as that; if there was any money to be made out of the land, let it go into the consolidated fund. If the Treasurer wanted funds, he could get them out of the Loan Bill by striking out of the schedule works which the Opposition and, he believed, the Premier, did not consider necessary, instead of taking money out of special loans like this. He (Major .Atkinson) objected to this special allocation as proposed by the Treasurer In this Bill.- . • _ „ „ Mr MONTGOMERY thought the LIOO.OOO should be devoted to no other purpose than the railway. He hoped that money tied up for a purpose would be strictly tied up, Mr PEACOCK submitted that the Treasurer had shown no reason for this departure in the way of devoting a loan raised for a special purpose to other purposes. That was never contemplated when , the loan was authorised, and he should, oppose it m c immitfcee. Mr D ARG 4.VIL LE_ would also support the proposal to strike out the Lloo t ooo for Native land purchases. Mr BRUCE and Mr T. THOMPSON spoke in a si "Tiilar strain. • The TREASURER, in replying, said the Government would be quite willing to strike out clause 5 (bow land reserved for the railway may be dealt with), but not strike out subsection 5 of the previous clause (as to LIOO,OOO being expended on - Native lands). It would not b® worth while proceeding with the Bill if the latter was eliminated. ■ The second reading of the Bill was agreed to, and the committal set down for next day. . LOAN BILL. On the motion for committal of this Bill, Major ATKINSON asked whether the discussion in committee would be reported. Mr DARGAVILLE thought the discussion had already been reported ad nauseam.^ The voices, being, taken, were against the discusion being reported. . The House went into committee on the Bill. Clause 3, loan authorised.—Mr Bryce asked the Treasurer to say whether or not the Government would propose a loan next year. The Premier, hs understood,, had expressed his opinion against it, while the Treasurer had hinted that a loan would be desired.. Sir Julius Vogel said he had not said so. He was of opinion that there would-be no necessity for asking for a loan with & view of using it. What necessity might arise at the end of the year he could not say. Mr Bryce said that did not, then, prevent the loan being . anticipated by debentures. He went on to speak in favor of reducing the amount of the loan, and said he would move to reduce it if someone else did not. He would prefer, however, that the Government should propose such an amendment. Mr J. B. Whyte moved that,the clause be postponed till tlja schedule had been considered. The Chairman pointed out that the Committee would have to take a postponed clause before the schedule was taken. Mr Dargaville moved an amendment to tne effect that portion of the loan might be spent on Native land purchase. Mr Downie Stewart moved an amendment that ths figures “ L 1,500,000 ” be struck out, and substituted, “ the amount to be fixed in the schedule.” The Chairman ruled Mr Dargayille's amendment out of order, as it provided for an extra appropriation. The Treasurer, in answer to Mr Bryce, said the Government proposed a loan of L 1,500,000, and j were prepared to take less. A long discussion took place. He had written the Agent-General that that was the amount the Government would propose. Mr Reid said if the Treasurer said nothing less than a million and a half would satisfy him, then he (Mr Reid) and others would vote, even if it were made a noconfidence question, with those who proposed a diminished revenue. Many other members who voted with him on the second reading would take the same course. Sir Julius Vogel said they were to belie ve that the Premier had been so idiotic as to make a speech against the policy of the Government, and in favpr of the Opposition, and that, too, when speaking on a Bill on which he had staked the existence of the Government. Sir Julius remarked that if votes were struck out of the schedule it

would be open for the Government to make a fresh proposal for making np the amount of the Bill. He would undertake to say that clause 3 should not proprse to borrow more than the amount of the schedule. Major Atkinson said the Premier was wanted now (Sir Robert Stout having been absent all the evening) to explain what he meant when he said the amount of the loan could be reduced when the schedule was in committee. For his (Major Atkinson’s) part, he did not see how the Government could do with less than L 1,500,000. It was ludicrous, however, for the Treasurer to suggest to the House that it was committed because he had written to the Agent-General. (Here the Premier entered the chamber, and was received with cheers from the Government party.) Major Atkinson said they had now got the horse to the water. Whether they could make him drink was another matter. He went on to say that his idea of the Premier’s speech was that cut of the fullness of the heart the mouth had spoken. He would ask whether it would not be better to find out what they wanted for general works next year. Then they could reduce this loan and come down with another small loan. He would again ask whether the Premier was going toassist the Committee. The Premier said what he said was that If Mr G. F. Richardson was sincere in his economy he would have simply moved for a reduction, and not for the allocation of the money saved to other purpoa ?s. He had said also that he saw no reason why the schedule should not be discussed as freely as the schedule of the Bill of 1882. It should be remembered that with regard t > two lines the Government stated in the Public Works Statement that surveys only were asked for in two lines. Mr Stewart withdrew his amendment, and the clause was agreed to. Schedule. —Mr J. C. Buckland moved that the item Hamilton to Grahamstown, L 55.000, be struck out. The Minister for Public Works said a considerable amount had already been spent on the line, Colonel Fraser said Mr Buckland had not been in the district for seven years, and could not now form an opinion as to whether the line was a desirable one. This was a railway which would pay at once if any would. Mr Buckland said he knew the country well. Major Atkinson asked whether it was possible to get the debate on this schedule, reported. The Premier did not see the need of asking the reporters to work on this debate. He denied that he had been instrumental in getting the Hansard reporters to cease reporting on Tuesday morning, he had nothing whatever to do with it. Major At kinson said the Hansard reporters were here to report the proceeding, and ne thought the country should be informed of the reasons which actuated hon members. Mr Rolleston, speaking on the question of the vote, said he did 'not see where the line was to go. Mr Whyte supported the vote. Mr Cadman said the. district of Te Aroha had practically been created since 1882. Colonel 1) raser said there were 15,500 people along the line of the railway. "Mr Fergus a-ked whether £53,000 would finish the line. The Minister : “ No.” Mr Fergus asked how much it would take. The Minister said L 75.000 more. Mr Reid said they had had it from the Treasury benches that the credit of the Colony would not be good long, and chat they must therefore ‘‘hedge off.” Therefore they must, he thought, attend first, to the completion of main lines. Mir Mitchelson said he should vote against the line, because he could not conceive that it would ever pay.. That was an opinion he had always held. In division the vote was retained by 47 to 2S. Mr Hursthouse moved to strike out the item, Helensville northwards, L 50,000. Lost by 64 to 13. Mr Sutter moved to strike out the item, Greymouth-Hokitika, L 76.000. Upon discussion, the item was retained.by 40 to 34.. Mr Allwright moved, to strike _out the item Westport-Inangahua, L 63.000, remarking that it wakevidently proposed.to spend more money on the West Coast than the West Coast was worth. Mr J. C. Buckland would like to hear the Minister for Public Works say something in favor of this line. Mr Levestam spoke in favor of the line. Mr Scobie Mackenzie said they could see now where the insincerity lay. They were laying a pretty foundation for future borrowing. Mr O'Conor pointed out that the line connected the interior with the port, which, . he believed, was a great consideration. _ Mr Macarthur said this line would cost L 335.000 to finish. The vote was struck out by 41 to 32. Mr D. Reid moved to strike out the item Blenheim-Tophouso L 68.000. Upon discussion the item was struck out by 50 to 22. The Treasurer said he did not propose .to carry the schedule through that night, (cries of “Go on.”) The discussion was then proceeded with. Mr VV. F. Buckland raised a question about the Ashburton branch. Mr Holmes said that LBOOO was all that was proposed for Canterbury, and he would not be surprised if that was struck out. Mr Allwright said it was amusing to hear the last speaker. He (Mr Allright) had been voting for reductions all night to get the money spent .in Canterbury. (Laughter.) The hon gentleman, however, had voted against all reductions. Mr Kerr thought L 40,000 was enough for the Otago Central, and moved that the item of L 140,000 for that line be reduced by LIOO.OOO. The Treasurer said he was not surprised at the remarks of Mr Holmes, for appeared evident that Canterbury, Westland, and Nelson ware left out .of this loan. However, the Government, had accepted the -decision of the Committee, and would consequently have to reduce the item in a permanent way by L 44.000, the equivalent. He would not propose to finish the schedule that night, but would state on a future occasion what couise the Government intended to take with regard to completing the schedule. Mr Bryce objected to this. but subsequently withdrew his objection on the Treasurer stating that he did not propose to take the whole schedule, and he would not say what the Government would propose until, they had had an opportunity of considering the matter. Mr O’Callaghan moved to report progress, and suggested that in future the North Island votes should not be put altogether fir3t. .Mr Holmes asked the Government to state plainly their intentions with regard to the schedule. The Treasurer said to the best of his knowledge the Government would propose to leave the amount of the schedule at a million and a half, and that the proportion of the amount reduced that night should be left subject to appropriation at a future time. Mr Kerr altered his motion to reduce the Otago Central by L 40.000. The Treasurer hoped the hon member would not press this amendment. To attempt reprisals would not be wise. Mr Gore said he would support the amendment for the line had. been so systematically neglected that it was time a climax was reached, and the members for the district made a stand. Mr Kerr withdrew his amendment, and then moved to strike out the item Edendale - Fortrose, L 28.000. Mr O’Callaghan obtained leave to withdraw the motion to report progress. Mr Holmes moved that the Chairman leave the chair, but subsequently withdrew it. In the course of a discussion which ensued, Mr Holmes said money had, under previous Go-

vernments, been spent in making roads to theproperties of the VYairarapa membera which ought to have gone to the South Island. Mr Buchanan gave this a flat denial. V Mr Pearson moved to strike out the item Riversdale to Switzers, L 20.000. The vote was retained by 33 to 25. Mr Kerr’s amendment to strike out the Edendale-Fortrose vote was lost bv 38 to 19. The Treasurer said if the proportionate amount of L 44.000 was struck off the per-manent-way item the Government would state what course, they proposed to pursue. Mr Xerr complained that there wa3 nothing in the schedule for Nelson. .Mr Levestam agreed with this, and said the Government had not treated the province fairly. Previous Governments had taken the votes, and misappropriated the money, but this Government was more bareface I—they did not even propose anything. Mr O'Callaghan hoped the Government’s experience that night would teach them in future to lay down this rule —that they would support those who would support them. Mr W. F. Buckland wished to give the Government credit, for having always done what they could for him, though he was an Opposition member. Additions to open lines, L 150,000. Mr Kerr moved that this amount be reduced by L 50.000. This was withdrawn. The item permanent way, L370.0D0, was reduced by L 44.000 on the motion of the Treasurer. Progress was then reported. Mr BRYCE remarked that he and others would consider it a breach of faith if the amount of the schedule was raised to L 1,500,000. • . . Sir JULIUS VOGEL said it would be time to hear those opinions when he stated the intention of the Government. The House then (3.45) rose.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. THURSDAY, JULY 22. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PETITION. Mr MENZIES presented a petition from certain residents in Otago, praying that the Contagious Diseases Act may be expunged from the Statute Book. LOCAL BODIES LOANS BILL. Dr POLLE N brought up the report of the Committee appointed to prepare the reasons of the Council for disagreeing with the amendments of the House of Representatives in this Bill. The amendments were agreed to, and a message embodying them were transmitted to the House. THE BABBIT PEST. Mr REEVES moved, That, in the opinion of this Council, it is highly inexpedient that the Government should take steps to provide a large and constant supply of the destructive vermin known as stoats and weasels, as recommended in the report of the Joint Rabbit Nuisance and Sheep Act Amendment Committee. In moving the motion standing.in his name, he remarked that he had no desire to cripple or obstruct the Committee in their action to do away with the rabbit pest, but he felt sure that the cure would prove worse than the disease, It was, in his opinion, a great pity that in the early days of the Colony more discrimination had not been displayed in importing rabbits, sparrows, larks, and watercrease, which bad proved so to agriculturalists in the Colony, and he trusted, therefore, the Government would not still further increase the imported pests such as stoats and weasels, as . recommended by the Joint Committee. The recommendation would, he believed, be fraught with most disastrous results to - 'agriculturalists and sheep farmers. Mr BATHGATE seconded the motion and expressed the hope the Council would refrain from endorsing the report of the Joint Committee, and wouldf not recommend that those beasts of prey—stoats and weasels, —should be permitted to" be imported. Mr G. R. JOHNSON defended the recommendation of the Joint Committee, whieh had taken a great deal of evidence on the subject, and in addition had received communications from a great number of large and small farmers throughout the Colony, the majority of them expressed. the opinion that any method by which rabbits could be exterminated would prove acceptable. In many portions of the Colony, it was impossible to take poisoned grain over a large portion of the Colony, owing to the inacessability of the ranges, and for this reason the Committtee had adopted the almost unanimous voice of the settlers, who were in favor of introducing the natural enemy of rabbits. Mr ROBINSON supported the recommendation of the Joint Committee, as also did Mr HOLMES, Mr ACKLAND, and other hon members. After further discussion the debate on the motion of Captain Baillie was adjourned to the next day. MONDAY SITTING. Mr BUCKLEY gave notice that on the following day he would move, That during the remainder of the session the Council sit on Mondays. PROTECTION. Mr CHAMBERLIN, in view of the near termination of the session, withdrew his motion relative to a protective tariff. He added that he intended to bring np the motion early next session. TABAWERA RELIEF FOND. The SPEAKER explained that a scheme originating from His Excellency the Governor, having for it 3 effect the relief of the sufferers by the late volcanic eruptions, had been propounded. The Speakers of both Houses had been asked by His Excellency to co-operate with him, and it was sought to. obtain the use of the Parliamentary Buildings for a public entertainment to take place on Saturday week next. As Speaker of the Council, he desired to ascertain the desire of the Council on the subject. , Mr WALKER objected to the buildings being thrown open. Mr MoLEAN would like, to learn the reasons of hon gentlemen objecting to the buildings being thrown open to the public. He had heard that objection to the scheme was raised on account of certain rumors of a scandalous character, which it was alleged had, taken place at the late ball held in the buildmga. He, for hi 3 part, did not. believe in these rumors, and even if half which was stated was true, doubtless the. affair amounted only to youthful indiscretions,, of which most hon members must plead guilty. Mr SHRIMSKI gave a deaf ear to the scandalous slanders relating to the alleged proceedings at the late ball. But, irrespective of this, he opposed the Council being turned into a bazaar or show-place. He sympathised with the object sought to be attained, and would be willing to contribute towards the object proposed. After discussion, the question that the building be permitted to be used for the purpose indicated, went to a division, resulting as follows Ayes, 19; noe3, 17. The motion wa3 carried. LOCAL BODIES LOAN BILL. A message was received from the House of Representatives on the subject of the issue between the Council and the House relative to amendments in the Local Bodies Loan Bill. Dr POLLEN moved that Mj Stevens, Ms

Holmes, and the mover be appointed managers [ •of the Council to meet an equal number of managers of the House of Representatives, to • confer on the question. The motion was agreed to. - employment op females act. . ' On the motion for going into committee on (‘the Employment of Females Act, Dr POLLEN, while not opposing the motion, • expressed the hope that the Bill would be amended. ~ The Bill was committed, and progress was i immediately reported, but, as the motion did not contain the proviso to sit again, the Bill was virtually shelved. GOVERNMENT HOARS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill \ Was committed. •• The Committee, at 5 o’clock, adjourned to • - 7i30.

EVENING SI I TING. The Committee on the Government Loan ( to Local Bodies Bill resumed at 7.30. Some r trifling amendments were made, and progress • was reported on clause 36, leave being given to eit again to-morrow. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL. Sir F. WHITAKER resumed the debate on i the second reading of the Civil Service Reform Bill to which an amendment had been pro- ■ posed that the Bill be committed “this day •■■ six months.” He objected entirely to the proposal that cadets should be nominated by the House, of Representatives, and he also objected to the proposed amendment on the part of the Government that cadets should be nominated on the system of representation of districts. He also objected to the ■ clause whereby Civil servants might be dismissed at three months’ notice, just as domestic servants were discharged. This clause, in his ■ opinion, savoured too much, of the American . system of public servants being dismissed on a change of Ministry occurring. Both of the objections he had mentioned were sufficient to ' warrant him in opposing the Bill. Mr HART expressed his intention of opposi ing the Bill, as also did Captain Fraser. •Mr SHRIMSKI pointed out that the Bill sought to effect a retrenchment, and and for this reason alone the. Bill should be • supported. He would give bis voice in favor • of the second reading. Mr BUCKLEY moved the adjournment of • the debate to the next day. The motion was agreed to. COMPANIES BRANCH REGISTER BILL. ’Mr BUCKLEY moved the second reading • of the Companies Branch Register Bill. The motion was agreed to. NATIVE LAND ADMINISTRATION BILL. The Native Land Administration Bill was i further considered in committee.. Progress was reported, and leave given to sit again. ■ NATIVE LAND COURT BILL. • This Bill was further considered in committee. Several .amendments were agreed to, and the Bill was reported with amendments. The Council a,djourned at 9.50 to the next ‘ day. FRIDAY, JULY 23. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY presented papers relative to the Census, 3886. The Speaker laid upon the i table index of appendices to the Journals of the Legislative Council. LOCAL BODIES LOAN BILL. Dr POLLEN brought up the report of the ► managers appointed by either House of the Legislature. The report stated that the managers had been unable to arrive at any • decision on the questions at issue between the > two branches ef the Legislature on the Local Bodies Loan Bill. RELIEF TO THE UNEMPLOYED. Mr MENZIES asked the Colonial Secre- ! tary, Whether the Government will take into consideration the propriety of organising some mode of giving outdoor relief, in the shape of food or otherwise, and with or without the condition of a labor ,test, to persons who are unable to obtain employment or otherwise, and to their families ? Mr BUCKLEY, in reply, said that the Government had had the matter referred to.under tlieir serious consideration, and the. Minister of Public Works was making inquiries with a view to affording relief to the unemployed of Auckland and Dunedin, where the distress existed. MONDAY SITTINGS. Mr BUCKLEY moved that for the remainder of the session the Council sit on Mondays. Mr MENTEITH pointed out that the Chamber would be occupied on Saturday, 31st inst., till midnight, on which occasion an entertainment would be given in aid of sufferers by the late volcanic eruptions. Colonel BRETT remarked that the hon gentleman need not be apprehensive on that score, as the Council Chamber would not be required for the proposed eutertainment. ' The motion was agreed to. THE RABBIT PEST. . . . The adjourned debate on the question that the Council consider it inexpedient to import stoats and weasels for the purpose of exterminating rabbits, was resumed by ' Captain BAILLIE, ' who supported Mr Reeves’ motion. Sir F, WHITKAKER, as an amendment, moved that the importation of the animals mentioned be recommended. The Council divided on the question that the word “ inexpedient ” be retained in the motion. Ayes, 14; noes, 22. The amendment was carried. FIRST OFFENDERS PROBATION BILL. The order for the second reading of the First ■Offenders Probation Bill was discharged, and made an order for Monday next. ' . FIRST READINGS. ' The following Bills were received from the House of Representatives and read a first ■time : Otago Bridge Construction Bill, Auckland Harbor Board Loan Bill, Oamaru Harbor Board Loan Bill, City of Christchurch Municipal Loan Bill, Waimate Racecourse Loan Bill, and Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill. „ The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill was further considered in committee. On clause 36, Sir F. Whitaker moved an amendment, to the effect that the House of Representatives had no right to pa3S loans for an indefinite period. The Chairman ruled that as the Bill was a money Bill he could not accept the amendment. The question was referred to the Speaker for his ruling. The Speaker was appealed to, and ruled that the Bill was decidedly a money Bill, and, as such, could not be amended. Upon the Council again going into committee, Ur Pollen said that in the face of the ruling of the Speaker no other course was left the Council than to move that progress he reported. After protests on the part of Mr Buckley and Mr Reynolds, progress was reported, leave being given to sit again. COMPANIES BRANCH REGISTERS BILL. The Companies Branch Registers Bill was committed, and reported with trifling amendments. COAL MINES BILL. The Coal Mines Bill was committed, and reported with some unimportant amendments. The usual dinner hour was taken at 5 o’clock.

EVENING SITTING. I The Council resumed at 7.30. THIRD BEADING. THE COMPANIES BRANCH REGISTERS BILL. The Companies Branch Registers Bill was read a third time and passed. SETTLED LAND BILL. Sir F. WHITAKER moved that the order of the day for the second reading of Settled Land Bill be discharged, and made an order for Monday next. Agreed to. OTAGO HABBOR BOARD LEASING BILL. The Otago Harbor Board Leasing Bill was read a second time. COUNTIES BILL, The Counties Bill was further considered in committee, when the postponed clauses were taken, and several amendments of no great importance were agreed to. Mr Bamicoat moved the following new clause :—The Council may, out of the funds of the county, from time to time make such annual or other allowance to the Chairman, so long as he shall continue Chairman, by way of salary as they may think fit. Provided always that in no case shall such salary exceed the sum of one' hundred pounds in any one year. The Committee divided, with the following result:— Ayes, 10; noes, 15. Bill reported with amendments, and the third reading of the Bill was made an order for Tuesday next. The Council, at 10.30, adjourned to Monday next. MONDAY, JULY 26. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY laid on the table the following papers : Statement of Australian Mutual Provident Society, and Reports of Inspectors under the Employment of Females and others Act. PRIVATE BILLS. The second reading of the Waimate Racecourse Bill, and the Auckland Harbor Board Loan Bill, were made orders for Wednesday next; and the Municipal Offices Bill for the next day. The report of the Committee on the Wellington and Manawatu Railway Additional Capital Debentures Bill was brought up, and which stated that the allegations were correct. The Bill, was referred to Committee D. • HUTT AND PETONE GAS .BILL. • The Hutt and Petone Gas Companies Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the following day. COAL MINES BILL. The Coal Mines Bill was read a third time and passed. CIVIL SERVICE BEFOBM BILL. Dr GRACE resumed the debate, on the Civil Service Reform. The question was “that the Bill be now read a second time,” to which an amendment had been proposed that the Bill “be read this day six months.” Dr Grace remarked that he did not think the Bilk dealt with the great question of Civil Service reform. He felt' assured that the Service required a radical' reform, hut he did not think the Bill was in the direction needed. For instance, not sufficient provision had been made for dispensing with the services of gentlemen who were found to he incompetent, neither had a provision been made for making heads of departments responsible for their subordinates. For the reasons he had stated he should vote for the amendment.

Dr POLLEN objected to the Bill. as it iVas too much on the lines of the American Civil Service, the officers of which left office on the election of a President of the United States. The Bill, he considered, gave spoils to members of the House of Representatives. Mr BUCKLEY defended the aspersions made by Dr Pollen. On the first occasion the debate on the second reading took place on the heads of departments, to the effect that those gentlemen had little else to do hut make things look pleasant like the walkers in a draper’s shop. Speaking for himself, he desired to say that the gentleman who was the permanent head of the Colonial Secretary’s Department had rendered great assistance to him (the Colonial Secretary). He believed that the Bill was an instalment on Civil Service reform, and he, for this reason, trusted the Council would agree to the second reading, if not on the grounds of public economy. Mr WILSON supported the Bill. Colonel BRETT pointed out that during the last seven years two Royal Commissions on the subject of Civil Service reform had been appointed, and before the Council agreed to the second reading he thought the reports of these Royal Commissions should be laid before the Council. Mr PEACOCK expressed his intention of supporting the second reading of- the Bill. Mr STEVENS remarked that it appeared to him that the public men of the Colony, when things were slack, invariably adopted the practice of attempting reform of the Civil -Service, and also the reform of the Legislative Council. The Colonial Secretary had uttery failed to show the Council that any economy would be effected by the Bill. The fact was that Civil servants had no assurance that they would have permanent appointments. He should oppose the second reading of the Bill. Mr BONAR objected to the Bill for several reasons, the chief one being that cadets would be appointed by a branch of the Legislature, which he considered a most pernicious system. He also took exception to the clause providing for the retention by the Government of 5 per cent of officers’ salaries for assurance purposes. . Captain KENNY, although he did not believe *in the Bill as a whole, yet intended to vote for the«econd reading, as he regarded it as an instalment of Civil Service reform. He did not desire that Civil servants should be harshly dealt with, and, therefore, when, the Bill was in committee, he trusted provision would be made whereby the Bill should not be retrospective. He did not view the appointment of cadets altogether with favor, as such appointments might affect injuriously the discipline of the service. . Mr REYNOLDS replied, and in so doing remarked that it was exceedingly unlikely that the Government desired to get rid of. a good man, but when a person was not suitable for his position, it was only right that he should be got rid of. He did not regard the Bill as a perfect measure, but rather as an earnest of something more to. come. The fact was that in the face of a falling revenue a reform of the Civil Service was absolutely requisite. When the Bill was in committee he would be quite willing to agree to any reasonable amendment, and, therefore, he hoped the second reading would he agreed to. He might remark that the Government had arranged in another place for certain retrenchment, and unless tne Bill was agreed to this promise to the House of Representatives could not be carried out. _ , , Mr BRANDON asserted. that the Bill did not contain a single provision, whereby retrenchment in the Civil Service could be The Council divided on the question that the words proposed to he omitted stand part of the Bill, with the following result Ayes, 21.—Messrs Acland, Baillie, Barnicoat, Bathgate, Brett, . Buckley, Dignan, Kenny, Lahman.n, Peacock, Peter, Reeves, Reynolds. Shephard, Shrimski, Swanson, Taiaroa, Walker, Wigley, Wilson.

Noes, 13. —Messrs Bonar, Brandon, Chamberlin, Grace, Hart, G. R. Johnson, J. Johnston, Mantell, Pollen, Stevens, Williams, Whitaker, Williamson. The Bill was read the second time, and was ordered to be committed on the following day. FIRST OFFENDERS PROBATION BILL. Mr BUCKLEY moved the second readimg of the First Offenders Probation Bill, which provided that the Court on the first conviction might be empowered to grant a convicted person his liberty on certain conditions,either by his giving sureties for good behaviour or otherwise. Such a liberated person would have to report himself to a probation officer at stated periods. The Colonial Secretary read extracts from American penal authorities, who had proved by experience the efficacy of a BUI such as he had the pleasure of introducing on the present occasion. Speaking as a barrister who had had a great deal of experience in defending criminals, he desired to say that he believed the BiU would have the effect..of tempering justice with mercy, and would tone down the asperities of our penal laws. Mr WILSON supported the Bill but intimated his intention of introducing a clause in committee, giving a Judge" power to release a first offender should he deem such a course advisable. The second reading was agreed to on the voices. GOVBBNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL.. The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill was further considered in committee. Some slight amendments were agreed to, and progress was reported, leave being given to sit again. '. The Council, at 5 o’clock, adjourned till the following day. = - TUESDAY, JULY 27. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. WELLINGTON-MANAWATU RAILWAY ADDITIONAL DEBENTURES BILL. The report on this Bill recommended that the Bill should be allowed to proceed. The report was agreed to. PARLIAMENTARY BUILDINGS.

•Mr SHRIMSKI moved, That, in the opinion of this Council, the Parliament Buildings ought not to be used for other than legislative purposes during the session of Parliament. . Colonel BRETT deprecated private members interfering with the prerogative of the Speakers of both Houses of the Legislature. If the mover did not withdraw the motion, he (Col. Brett) should consider it as a censure upon the Speakers, and should move the previous Question# Sir F. WHITAKER, although he did not desire to see the Parliamentary Buildings used as a place of entertainment, still he considered that the motion was not required. Mr SHRIMSKI desired to say that he did not by his motion intend to infer that the Council should usurp the authority of the Speakers of either House. - Mr WALKER remarked that he had been reported to have said in the Press that he had voted against the Parliamentary Buildings being (granted for an entertainment in aid of funds for the relief of the sufferers by the late volcanid eruption. This was incorrect. Mr SHRIMSKI withdrew the motion. FIRST READINGS. The Mortgage Amendment Bill and the Port Chalmers Fire Brigade Bill were received from the House of Representatives, and were read a first time. THE CRISIS. Mr_BUCKLEY, in view of the debate on the motion of wAnt-of-confidence, which was proceeding in another place, moved the adjournment of the Council to the following day. NOTICE OF MOTION, ETC. Mr WILSON to move on Thursday, That a second free conference be requested with the House of Representatives upon the Local Bodies Loan 1 Bill with - regard to the amendments in clause 38, with which the House of Representatives have disagreed., and that the Hons Mr Bonar and Mr Miller, and the mover be the managers of such conference on behalf of thi3 Council, and that the conference meet on Thursday the 29th. The Council,, at 3 o’clock, adjourned to the next day. WEDNESDAY, JULY 28. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPEBBi Mr BUCKLEY laid the following papers on the table :—Further reports of the Female and Others Employment Act, Annual Sheep Returns and schedule of allowances to Civil Servants. WELLINGTON AND MANAWATU ‘ ADDITIONAL CAPITAL BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Bill, Mr WILSON moved that the Bill be recommitted, with a view to amend the preamble. Captain BAILLIE suggested that the Bill be referred to a committee of the whole Council. The suggestion was accepted, and Mr WILSON withdrew his amendment in favor of Captain Baillie, which latter amendment was carried. The Bill was ordered to be considered by the committee on the following day.

LIGHTING RAILWAY CARRIAGES. . Mr MENZIES asked the Hon the Colonial Secretary, If the Government will take into consideration the propriety of lighting railway trains which run at night over considerable distances with the electric light, in substitution of the present unsatisfactory mode, of lighting railway carriages, and in conformity with the practice on some English railways 1 Mr BUCKLEY replied that. the matter was at present engaging the attention of the railway authorities. He feared, however, that the expense would preclude the object sought to be obtained. LOCAL BODIES LOAN BILL Mr WILSON moved, That a second free conference be requested with the House of Representatives upon the Local Bodies Loans Bill with regard to the amendment of this Council in clause 38, with which the House of Representatives have disagreed, and tnat the Hon Mr Bonar, 1 the Hon Mr Miller, and the Hon Mr Wilson be the managers of such conference on behalf of this Council, and that the conference meet on Thursday, the 29th day of July, at 12 o’clock noon, in the Joint Committee room. Mr MILLER moved as an amendment that the former managers of the Council, Dr Pollen, Mr Holme3, and Mr Stevens, be appointed instead of the hon members who were mentioned in the motion. He took this step, as it appeared to him that a reflection would be cast upon the former managers of the Council. Mr BUCKLEY assured the Council that no disrespect was intended in naming new managers. Sir F. WHITAKER maintained that it was a very unusual thing to alter the names of the Council’s managers. The other Chamber had not. he remarked, asked for a fresh Conference. The SPEAKER remarked there was nothing derogatory in the Council appointing new managers on the Conference. It was as well that the Council should endeavor to arrive at a friendly compromise with the House of Reoresentatives. . * . v . . .. Mr MENZIES moved the previous question.

After discussion, the question was put, that the names proposed to be omitted in the motion stand part of the question. Ayes, 15 ; noes, 21. The effect of the division was that the former managers were appointed. Mr MENZIES’ motion, that the question be now put, was debated till the clock struck 4, when the Council proceeded to the orders of the day. The motion thus lapsed. SECOND BEADING. The Waimate Racecourse Trustees Empowering Bill was read a second time. FIRST OFFENDERS PROBATION BIEL. The First Offenders Probation Bill was considered in Committee. Progress was reported, leave to sit again being given. The Council took the usual adjournment at 5 o’clock. EVENING SITTING. The Council resumed at 7.30. SALMON AND TROUT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr HOLMES moved the second reading of the Salmon and Trout Amendment Bill. Mr MENZIES opposed the Bill, and at great length explained that his opposition arose through the Bill seeking to legalise stake nets. After a lengthy discussion, a motion for the adjournment of the debate was negatived. Ayes, ;15; noes, 17. The motion for the second reading was negatived on the voices. COAL MINES BILL. A message was received from the House of Representatives announcing that the House disagreed with the Council’s amendments in the Coal Mines Bill. _ The matter at issue was ordered to be considered on the following day. SHEEP ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr BUCKLEY moved the second reading of the Sheep Act Amendment Bill, which was agreed to. MINING BILL. Mr BUCKLEY, in moving the second reading of the Mining Bill, explained that the proposed measure was simply a Consolidation Bill. Should the motion be agreed to, he intended referring the Bill to the Coldfields Committee.

This Bill was read a second time, SETTLED LAND BILL.

Sir F. W HIT AKER moved the _ second reading of the Settled Land Bill, and in doing so he explained that the Bill provided that land left by will should not be tied up, but should be sold, and the proceeds shquld be devoted towards the benefit of those interested. Dr GRACE, while not oppossng the Bill, pointed out some features which to a layman’s mind presented themselves, and which might prove to be obstructive. As a whole he was inclined to supp >rt the Bill. Mr ROBINSON asked the Council to pause ere they passed the Bill In a thin house he trusted the second reading of the Bill would not be pressed that night. Mr MILLER trusted that as an Act similar to the proposed measure had for the last few years worked eminently satisfactorily in the United Kingdom, the motion would be agreed to. He would vote for the second reading. Mr REEVES acknowledged that not having a legal mind he approached the subject with great diffidence. Notwithstanding this, however, he could not help saying that the Bill would not have his sympathy or his support. Dr POLLEN expressed his intention of voting for the second reading. ■Mr STEVENS, from a lengthy experience in dealings in land, considered this Bill would prove acceptable to the country, although he frankly acknowledged that the Bill of 1881 more highly commended itself in some respects to his support. He thought the Bill might be amended in committee. Mr AC LAND expressed his intention of supporting the Bill. Mr HOLMES moved the adjournment of the debate, .which was agreed to. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill was further considered in committee. On clause 41, dealing with the personal liability of the Treasurer, considerable discussion ensued. Eventually progress was reported, leave being given to sit again. The Council, at 10.40, adjourned to the next day.