PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 751, 23 July 1886, Page 9

PARLIAMENT.

LEG-ISLATI VB COUNCIL

THURSDAY, JULY 15.

motion. . Dr POLLEN moved, That copies of the report furnished by the Inspectors of the several districts relative to the working of the Employment of Females and Others Act, 1881, in addition to that of the Inspector of Auckland, be laid upon the tabie. Agreed to.

HARBORS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was recommitted, with a view to reconsider clauses 12 and 13. The Bill was reported with amendments. WELLINGTON AND MANAWATU RAILWAY DEBENTURES BILL. This Bill was received from the House of Representatives, and was read a first time, the second reading being made an order for the following day. MESSAGES. Messages were received from the House, of Representatives announcing that the Council’s amendments in the East and West Coast Railway Construction Bill, and also in the Newmarket Reserves Bill, had been agreed to. The Defence Bill wa3 retransmitted from the House of Representatives with amendments for the apDroval of the Council. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary the consideration of these amendments was made an order for the following day. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee, and several amendments of no vital importance having been agreed to, the Bill was reported with amendments, the third reading being made an order for the next sitting. GISBORNE PUBLIC PRISON BILL. This Bill was committed, and reported without amendment, read a third time, and •passed. COUNTIES BILL. The order of the day for the committal of this Bill was discharged, and was made an order for Tuesday next. SHAREBROKERS BILL. On the motion for the committal of this Bill, Mr STEVENS submitted that the Bill was entirely unworkable, and therefore, as an amendment, he moved that the commital of the Bill take place that day six months. Mr BONAR remarked that he had received several communications from Auckland and Wellington sharebrokers, protesting that the Bill was quite unworkable, and therefore he supported the motion for throwing out the Bill. Sir E. WHITAKER counselled the Colonial Secretary to abandon the Bill, with a view to ' remodelling it during the recess. The Council divided on the question that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the Bill, with the following result: —Ayes, 24; noes, 4. The Bill was consequently thrown out. LOCAL BODIES LOAN BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. On Clause 56, Sir F. Whitaker the following amendment: —“Omit lines 25 to 30, inclusive, and insert ‘lt shall be the duty of the auditor of the local district to institute the necessary proceedings against every member . of the local authority liable to pay any such penalty. All costs incurred by the auditor in any such proceedings shall be paid out of the local fund of the district, and all money recovered for penalties and costs shall be deemed to be part of Such local fund, and paid over accordingly.’ ” The amendment was agreed to, and the Bill was reported with amendments, and ordered to be read a third time next day. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. Mr BUCKLEY moved that Mr Millar be appointed Chairman of Committees during the temporary absence of Captain Baillie. Agreed to. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL. This Bill was received from trie House of Representatives and read a first time, the second reading being fixed for the following day. ■ The Council (at 4.20) adjourned to the next day.

FRIDAY, JULY 16. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PETIIIONS.

Mr MENZIEB presented several petitions from certain women of Dunedin against the working of the Contagious Diseases Act.

QUESTION. Mr ROBINSON asked the Colonial Secretary whether the Sheep Department had received any further information from the inspectors, owing to which the promise on the part of the Government made some time since, that the Colony would shortly be proclaimed free from scab, had been delayed ? Mr BUCKLEY said, so far as he was aware, the Colony was free from scab. The proclamation that this was so had only been delayed in order that all the reports of the inspectors might be received. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL.

Mr REYNOLDS moved the second reading of the Civil Service Reform Bill, and in doing so explained that by the provisions of the Bill cadets would be appointed who would take the places of the Civil servants as they left the service or died. The Bill would have the effect of doing away with political patronage, he thought, and would establish an esprit de corps, which perhaps did not exist at present. Provision was also made whereby the service of a cadet entering the service might be dispensed with in the event of his not proving diligent or competent. Another clause made promotion according to ability, and not according to seniority, as heretofore. The second part of the Bill provided that Civil servants should not, on retiring, receive compensation as at present, but the Bill, in this respect, would not be retrospective. Another section of the Bill gave rights to women, _ by which they might enter the Civil Service in other branches, additional to those to which the sex were adpresent admitted, such as gaol warders, hospital nurses, &c. Another section made it compulsory that messengers and policemen should pass the 4th standard before receiving appointments. By section 9, cadets would be elected by members of . the House of Representatives from time to time, and this would, it was thought, distribute patronage over the whole extent of ihe Colony. Speaking for himself he should not like to see a son of his in the Public Service, but everyone, he regretted to say, did not entertain the same views on the subject as himself. The lion gentleman explained that another section in the Bill provided that 5 per cent would be

f deducted from the salaries of Civil servants, -i and would be devoted towards a retiring allowance, or an allowance to the widow of Civil servants in the case of the death of their husbands. This provision would in his opinion induce thrift on the part of Civil servants, whose services might be dispensed with at three months’ notice. Mr Reynolds further explained the provisions oE the Bill, the second reading of which he moved. Dr POLLEN’S opinion of the Bill was that it was the opposite of a good one. Looking at this Bill he could not refrain from summing it up in one word —“ bosh.” Whenever Government funds fell short, or a cry for local expenditure became prevalent, a cry arose “for Civil Service reform,” but it was not so in the present instance. The Bill sought to take away a certain amount of Government patronage, and bestow the same upon hon members of “ another place.’’ The work of the governing of the country was accomplished by the Civil Service, and hon members of the General Assembly would possibly be both surprised and pleased to learn that if both of the big “talking shops” were shut up for two or three years the business of the country would progress and be carried forward most satisfactorily. The political heads of the Government Departments resembled in his opinion very much the “walking gentlemen ” in a draper’s shop. They did little more than make things pleasant for their supporters all round, whilst the other people did the real work of the country. He had been for many years in the Public Service, and from his experience it would, in his opinion, be far better for any young man to apprentice himself as a blacksmith or any other artisan, or to follow the plough rather than he should enter the Public Service. He counselled the Government to put the Bill in the wastepaper-basket. Colonel BRETT objected to the Bill, more especially to that portion of it which gave the members of the House of Representatives the privilege of appointing their sisters, cousins and aunts to Government appointments. The SPEAKER called the hon member to order, and Colonel Brett apologised. Mr MANTELL objected to the appointments in the public service being taken out of the hands of the Government of the day and bestowed upon members of the House of Representatives. He should prefer that such appointments should be by a committee of the other branch of the Legislature. He moved, “ That the Bill be read a second time this day six months.”

Mr BRANDON objected to the Bill on general terms. Mr McLEAN admitted that the question of the reform of the Civil Service was surrounded with great difficulties. That there were a few good men in the Service who outside of it would get double their present salaries he was aware of ; but such men were few, and the incapables were, he regretted to say, many. He should like to see the permanent heads of the Government Departments made responsible for the work of their office, altogether irrespective of political patronage. With regard to the proposed appointment of cadets, ho believed that members of the House would not thank Parliament for the privilege sought to be vouchsafed. The best plan, he thought, would be for the permanent heads of Departments to take lads (cadets) on three months’ probation. He entirely favored the idea of 5 per cent being deducted for retiring allowances.

Sir F. WHITAKER regarding, as he did, the matter of considerable importance, moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday next.

The motion was agreed to. IN COMMITTEE,

The Council went into Committee on the Helrateramea Racecourse Reserves Bill and the Destitute Persons Bill. Progress m the latter-named Bill was reported immediately, and the former-mentioned Bill was reported, with a slight amendment, and ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday next. WELLINGTON HARBOR BOARD LEASING BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. HARBOR ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. DEFENCE BILL. The amendments in this Bill, made by the House of Representatives, were agreed to without discussion. LOCAL BODIES LOANS BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. The Council (at 4.20) adjourned to Tuesday next. TUESDAY, JULY 20. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. CATHEDRAL SITE (PARNELL) LEASING BILL. The consideration of the report of the Committee on this Bill was agreed to. WELLINGTON-MANAWATU RAILWAY COMPANY DEBENTURES VALIDATION BILL. This Bill was read a second time, on the motion of Mr G. R. JOHNSON, without discussion. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Mr SHEPHARD moved that leave of ab sence be granted to Mr Taiaroa for one week, on urgent private affairs. Agreed to. MAORI VOCABULARY. Mr MANTELL moved, That the Government cause to be prepared, laid upon the table, and printed, a vocabulary of such English and legal words and terms, in Maori form, as are now commonly inserted in official translations, with the words and terms which they are intended to represent; such vocabulary to be arranged (a) with the Maori preceding the English, (b) with the English preceding the Maori, and (c) with the Maori neologisms, with the full explanation of their intended meaning in pure Maori. The motion was agreed to on a division, Ayes, 23 ; noes, 10. NEW ZEALAND BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. RABBIT NUISANCE. Mr G. R. JOHNSON moved that the report of the Committee on the Rabbit Nuisance Bill., as well as other matters in connection with the proceedings of the Committee, be printed. Agreed to. JUSTICE OF THE PEACE BILL. The recommendation of an amendment by the Governor in the Justice of Peace Act, which had been agreed to by the House of Representatives, and which had been sent back by that branch of the Legislature for the approval of the Legislative Council, was ordered to be taken to-morrow. FIRST READING. The Salmon and Trout Bill was received from the House of Representatives and read a first time. LOCAL BODIES BILL. A message was received from the House of Representatives announcing that that branch of the Legislature had disagreed with the amendment of the Council in clause oS of the Local Bodies Bill. Mr BUCKBEY moved that the message of the House . of Representatives be taken into consideration to-morrow. MUNICIPAL CORPORiTIONL BILL. The Municipal Corporations Bill was read a third time and passed. DESTIIUTE PERSONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. A number of amendments have been

agreed to, the Bill was reported with amendments, read a third time and passed. NATIVE LAND ADMINISTRATION BILL. This Bill was considered in committee, and a number of amendments were _ agreed to, progress reported, and leave given to sit again on Thursday. NATIVE LAND COURT BILL. Several amendments in this Bill having been agreed to, progress was reported. The Council, at 5 o’clock, adjourned to 7.30. EVENING SITTING. The Council resumed at 7.30. GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES BILL, Mr REYNOLDS, in moving the second reading of the Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill, remarked that the proposed measure sought to assist local bodies with regard to Government loans. The Bill aimed at making municipalities more self-reliant, as instead of going to the Colonial Treasurer they might obtain powers to borrow moneys whereby accidents by flood and fire — (Hon Member: And earthquake.)—yes, and by earthquake, or any other emergency, may be rectified or replaced. The hon member briefly referred to the provisions of the clauses of the Bill.

Mr McLEAN objected to so many of these Municipal Bills being brought down by the Government, He confessed that he felt somewhat fogged at being confronted with these numerous proposed measures. Mr STEVENS took exception to certain clauses of the Bill. He pointed out that as the Colonial Treasurer would be responsible for the principal of any loan he might as well pay the interest.

Mr G. R. JOHNSON, while he did not altogether give his adherence to the Bill considered it might prove acceptable. It was a “machinery Bill,” and regarding it in that light he thought it should be supported. Mr WILSON contended that the Bill was not a “ machinery Bill,” and was not required. Mr MENZIES considered it would be a most unwise thing to give the Colonial Treasurer power to lend Municipalities moneys out of the trust funds, for he contended that it would be out of the trust funds of the Colony that these loans would have to come. He trusted that no such Bill as the present one would be permitted to pass, as it was one which would lead to reckless borrowing on the part of local bodies, whose responsibilities would assuredly be thrown upon the Colony. Mr WILLIAMS gave his support to the Bill, as also did Mr B ATHGATE, who remarked that the proposed measure was a small instalment of anticipated mercies in the direction of local government. The Bill was at any rate a great improvement upon the old Roads and Bridges Construction Act. The motion for the second reading was agreed to. COUNTIES BILL. The Council went into committee on the Counties Bill. A number of clauses were agreed to, several being postponed. Progress was reported, and leave was given to sit again on the next day. NOTICE OF MOTION. Mr REEVES to move yesterday, That the report of the Rabbit Pest Committee be not agreed to so far as it relates to the recommendation to the Government to undertake the introduction into the Colony of the natural enemies of rabbits. The Council, at 10.10, adjourned to the next day. WEDNESDAY, JULY 21. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPERS. Payment of interest out of capital during construction of Public Works, Examination of school teachers, Reports of officers in Native districts, Inspector’s reports under Employment of Females Act, and Balancesheets of Municipal Corporations and County Councils, were laid on the table. OAMARU STATION SITE. The Committee appointed to inquire into the petition of the Mayor and burgesses of Oamaru, who prayed that the esplanade should not be taken for railway purposes, reported that in the opinion of the Committee the prayer of the petition should be considered by the Council. CATHEDRAL SITE (PARNELL) LEASING BILL.. The third reading of the Cathedral Site Leasing Bill was agreed to, and the Bill was passed. MOTIONS. Mr BUCKLEY moved that the second reading of the Companies Branch Register Bill be made an Order of the Day for the next sitting. Agreed to. Sir F. WHITAKER moved that the second reading of the Settled Land Bill be made an Order for the following day. Agreed to. HUTT AND PETONE GAS COMPANY BILL. This Bill was received from the House of Representatives, and read a first time. FIRST OFFENDERS PROBATIONARY BILL. This Bill came up from the House of Representatives, and was read a first time. HAKATERAMEA RACECOURSE RESERVES BILL. The Hakateramea Racecourse Reserves Bill was read a third time and passed. JUSTICES OF THE PEACE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr BUCKLEY moved that a verbal amendment in clause 6, proposed by the Governor be agreed to. The motion was agreed to. LOCAL BODIES LOAN BILL. Mr BUCKLEY moved that the Council do not insist in the Council’s amendments in clause 38 of the Local Bodies Loan Bill, and in support of his motion, pointed out that the Council was itself divided on the question. Dr POLBEN, as an amendment, moved that the Council do insist on their amendments, and appoint a committee, consisting of Messrs Stevens, Holmes, and the mover, to draw up reasons why the Council so insist. The original question went to a division, and was lost—ayes, 10; noes, 26 —the amendment being agreed to. COUNTIES BILL. The Counties Bill was further considered in committee. On clause 157, dealing with special rates, an amendment to the effect that the special rate shall not exceed fd in the pound on the capital value, was carried on a division. The committee took the usual dinner adjournment at 5 o’clock. EVENING SITTING.. The Committee on the Counties Bill resumed at 7.30. On clause 288, dealing with Charitable Aid, it was moved, as an amendment, that the clause be struck out. On a division the clause was retained. On clause 289, providing for the maintenance of Agricultural Schools from the county funds, Mr Shrimski moved that the clause be struck out. The question went to a division, resulting in the clause being excised. Ayes, 10 ; Noes, 26. Clause' 291, providing that Public Libraries may be supported out of county funds, was struok out on a division. The question was that the clause be retaiued. Ayes, 11 ; Noes. 16, Progress was reported, and lea-ve was given to sit again on the next sitting day. The Council, at 9.30 adjourned to the next day,

IF you cannot get Wolfe’s Schnapps in one house, it is much better for you to go fl’aere you can get it.

HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES.

THURSDAY, JULY 15. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. REPRESENTATION ACT, ISS6.. The PREMIER gave notice to introduce the Representation Act, 1566. PETITION OF J. M'RAE AND OTHERS. The Public Petitions Committee reported on the petitions of C. H. Humphreys, J. Bird, and J. Mcßae, sufferers by the volcanic eruptions, to the effect that while they considered the petitioners had no claim on the Colony, yet, seeing that the petitioners would have been able to save a good deal of property in a few days succeeding the eruption had they not devoted their energies to saving life, the Government should take this into consideration in putting a sum on the Estimates for their relief. Sir GEORGE GREY asked the Government to make a statement of their intentions in this matter. The matter was one of great interest, he said, and the loss sustained was one against which there was no insurance. The PREMIER said it was unusual to ask the Government when the report had only just been-read by the clerk, what they intended to do. Personally, be saw great danger in the Government becoming insurers against loss by volcanic eruptions. The Government, he might say, had intended, to put a small sum on the Supplementary Estimates. The‘motion to refer the report to the Government. for consideration was carried.

QUESTIONS. Mr TAYLOR asked the Minister for Public : Works, If the Government will concede the ! same privileges to the em ploy<?s in the locomotive department of the railway service as those granted to the men employed in the traffic department of the same service ? The MINISTER said he could not see his wav to make the concession. The MINIS jER for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to Mr Smith, said he understood that the rolling-stock of the Napier-Woodville line was sufficient, but if more was needed he would have it supplied. Mr GRACE asked the Government, (1) Whether the Government will, as soon as possible, send an officer to ascertain the extent of damage done or loss sustained by settlers in the Bay of Plenty District through the recent volcanic eruption ? (2) Whether the Government will cause a revaluation by the property-tax valuators of all properties in the said district affected by the volcanic deposit, with a view of an equitable adjustment of the property-tax thereon, (3) Whether the Government will forego the property-tax for a period of five years over those properties which may bs found on inspection to be seriously affected by the volcanic eruption ? The MINES MINISTER, in reply said (1) the Government had not considered it necessary to send another officer to the district ; (2) the Government did not consider re-valuation necessary at present; (3) the Government would not be justified in promising to relax taxation. When the inspection was made the Government would consider what assistance should be given. HOURS OF POLLING BILL. The PREMIER, in answer to Mr Barron, said he would see that a Bill was introduced this session to extend the hours of polling, BILL INTRODUCED. A Bill to amend the Rating Act, ISS2, was introduced by Mr O'CALLAGHAN and read a first time. INSPECTION OF MACHINERY. Mr BUCHANAN moved, That a return be laid before this House showing—l. The total amount paid as fees to the department for inspection of machinery during the year ending the 31st March, 18S6, for inspection of land and marine machinery and boilers. 2. The total amount paid as salaries, travelling, and other expenses to the officers of the Department. Carried. GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION COMMITTEE. Ml' ORMOND moved that the Committee have an extension of time, till Monday week to bring up its report. Carried. NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOR LOAN BILL. Mr SAMUEL moved the committal of this Bill. Mr HURSTHOUSE opposed the Bill. He referred to an attack made upon him by a New Plymouth paper because he had opposed the Bill, in which he was called the larrikin of the House. The hon gentleman deprecated these attacks on hon members, and appealed to the Speaker whether he had ever transgressed the rules of the House. He went on to say that he should take advantage of the only constitutional proceeding open to hiimand talk the Bill out. Mr Hursthouse spoke for more than an hour, the bell having frequently to be rung for a quorum during his speech. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND spoke against the Bill. The debate was interrupted at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. NOTE CURRENCY BILL. The SPEAKER said he had to inform Mr J. O. Brown that this Bill could not be called on for second reading. It involved the issue of notes co the extent of L 4,000,000, and he pointed out that the Government’s responsibilities for such an issue gave to the Government the entire control of such matters. Mr BROWN expressed his intention of introducing the matter in some other form. SALMON AND TROUT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. It was agreed to, reported, aud read the third time and passed. POSTPONED. The Abolition of Provinces Act Amendment Bill and the Land Boards Bill were postponed till next week, in the absence of the member in charge (Sir George Grey). The Miners’ Rights Fee Reduction Bill (Mr Guinness) was postponed for a week. GOLD DUTY REDUCTION BILL. This (Mr Browne’s) Bill was struck off the Order Paper on Mr Browne’s application. LIVINGSTONE LINE OF RAILWAY. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS announced that the Government had received satisfactory tenders for the completion of a small piece of line in the Otago district, known as the Livingstone branch. The line had been in hand for some time, and he had thought it advisable to mention the matter in the House, the Government being desirous of accepting tenders. A vote was put on the Supplementary Estimates for the work. _ In answer to a question, the MINISTER said the amount was under L 12,000. HAWKERS AND PEDLARS BILL. . The House went into committee on this Bill. Attention was immediately directed to the absence of a quorum. The hell was rung, and a quorum obtained. Various amendments were made, and tne Bill was reported. , Mr MOSS moved to re-commit the Bill tor the consideration of certain clauses. This was lost. A lengthy discussion ensued as to whether the Bill should be read the third time that night. Eventually the third reading was lost by 26 to 21. EMPLOYERS LIABILITY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr REID moved the second reading of this

! Bill. Under the present Act, he explained, 1 any employ*? who was injured by defective machinery was compelled ti give. notice of injury within six weeks of sustaining it, and the Bill he now introduced gave to the Court the discretion of deciding whether or not there was reasonable cause for notice not being given. The second reading was agreed to. NELSON CROWN TENANTS RELIEF BILL. Mr O’CONOR moved the second reading of this Bill. The Nelson tenants, he said, were at present subjected to very severe.conditions with regard to their payments. This Bill provided for less stringent conditions. Mr ROLLESTON said the Bill would establish a bad precedent, and he hoped it would not be carried. Mr SEDUON accused Mr Rolleston of being inconsistent, inasmuch as the hon gentleman had allowed a company to have a large lease on much easier terras when he was in office. The PREMIER said the Bill must be referred to the Waste Lands Committee, and therefore ho should not oppose the second reading. At the same time he thought it would be a bad precedent to relax conditions in this wav. Mr DARGAYILLE thought the Bill would not give relief. At present the tenants forfeited their leases when they were in arrears six months : but the Bill would allow forfeiture on ninety days’ arrears. Mr HURSTHOUSE said great concessions had been made in other parts of the Colony. The present position of these tenants was that on six months arrears the rents should be doubled. The Bill provided that on 30 days’ arrears ten per cent should be added to the money due; and on 60 days’ arrears they would forfeit.

Mr CONOLLY contended that the present conditions were not at all too heavy.

Mr MENTEATH said the case was a proper one for relief, and he submitted that if relief was needed it was not a question of precedent. Mr O’CONOR, in reply, said this was not a precedent. At present, he said, Nelson was subjected to more stringent conditions than any other parts of the Colony. Irish landlordism, he said, was not worse. The Bill was then.read the second time and referred to the Waste Lands|Committee. UNCLAIMED DEPOSITS BILL. The second reading of this Bill was postponed for a week. LIVES OF CHILDREN PRESERVATION BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this Bill, Mr TURNBULL pointed out that there was not a quorum. The bell was rung, and a quorum obtained. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the second reading of the Bill. To save the lives, of children, he said, was the most meritorious act that could be performed. A considerable number of deaths occurred every year which it was possible to obviate by prohibiting the use of a certain class of matches. The motion for the second reading was lost by 18 to 16. EIGHT HOURS BILL. Mr BRADSHAW moved the reading of this Bill, which, he said, was a very short one. It provided that eight hours should be a day’s work, and that, he submitted, was quite enough. The question dealt with was a moving question all over the world, and there had been demonstrations over it recently in Belgium and in various parts of America. The”Bill, if it became law, would put a stop to strikes. Mr TAYLOR warmly supported to Bill. * Mr TURNBULL supported the second reading, but should move in commiltße that the Bill should not apply to agricultural or pastoral laborers. Mr SEDDON supported the Bill, but would agree to the exemptions suggested by Mr Turnbull. Mr BRUCE said, although he was opposed to the Bill, and believed it would be vicious and intolerable in practice, he gave the mover every credit for philanthropic and laudable motives. He was afraid, howener, that Mr Bradshaw looked at the matter from the city, or rather the factory, point of view. The Bill professed to be liberal, but it was not, because, whereas one of the principal planks of the Liberal platform was self-reliance, the Bill taught men to look to the State for everything—treated them as imbeciles and idiots, instead of as sensible men. He opposed the Bill.

The PREMIER said there were many similar laws on the statute books of other nations. According to the hon member for Rangltikei, the many factory Acts for the protection of men, women, aud children, passed by the English Parliament, were Conservative measures. Sir Robert contended that it was the duty of the House to protect the laboring classes where it was necessary to protect them. It was necessary, then, to lay down what should be a day’s work. In the Colony, he thought we must enforce on the people that the health of the laboring classes should be preserved at all hazards. He supported the Bill, and thought Mr Bradshaw was entitled to credit for the persistency with which he had kept it before the House. Mr STEWART said a great deal of trouble and litigation would arise if the Bill was passed in its present form. If it was applied to "domestic servants, there was not a member of the House who would not break it. The Bill would lead to a great deal of misunderstanding ; every employer of labor would have to carry a bottle of fnk about with him. Mr HURSTHOUSE thought there was no neces.-ity for the Bill, and pointed out that agricultural laborers could not possibly be brought under it, as they had to work according to circumstances. , Mr JOYCE said the only action by which the working classes could benefit was by a reduction in the hours of labor. . It was consfcanly held out to intending emigrants that the eight hours system prevailed here. Mr MENTEATH thought the Bill did no harm, for it was simply an affirmation of a. principle. A-t the same time, however, he did not think it would do good, and he could not understand the warmth of the hon gentleman. introducing the Bill. Mr SUTTER said this Bill was “an old friend come up again, and from the same place.” He quoted reports to show that in other countries it had been agreed that the laborers should fix their own hours of labor. Further, he pointed out that the. Bill was not effective because a man could write himself out of it. It was brought in at the instance of well-paid artisans. The Bill was a slander on, the country, for the working men were well able to look after themselves. Mr LEVESTAM opposed the Bill. It was now the law of the country that eight hours should be a day’s work, and the Bill would consequently have no effect, if passed. He suggested that the hon gentleman should have introduced a Bill making it felony to work more than eight hours. He did not think the working classes would thank the House for passing such a Bill as that now proposed. Mr CADMAN supported the second reading, but did not think it would do much good. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND eaid.the Premier and other members had seen fit, since this Billi-

was first introduced, to jeer at hon members and interject “ The Eight Hours Bill ” when other subjects were being discussed. Mr Buckland objected to these sneers, and said it was evident that there was something behind it. He opposed the Bill last year, and would support it this time on the alternate principle of giving it a chance. Mr DUNCAN opposed the Bill, and pointed out that it would interfere with harvesting -operations. Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE said the Bill was a thoroughly bad and vicious one, which might well he called a Bill to enable a member of the House to obtain spurious popularity. The Bill would do no good, and it was a bad Sractice to place such a Bill on the statute ook. .. , Mr GUINNESS supported the Bill, but would propose amendments in committee to amend it so as to make it more acceptable to the House. The Bill could be amended so as to give it practical and good effect, and he would endeavor so to amend it. The question that the Bill .be read the second time was put, and a division called for, which resulted as follows : Ates, 23. —Messrs Barron, Bevan, Bradshaw, Cadman, Dargaville, Eraser, Grey, Guinness, Hamlin, Ivess, Joyce, «J. McKenzie, Menteath, Moss, Newman, Reese, Seddon. Smith, W. J. Steward, Stout, Taylor, J. W. Thomson, and Tole. Noes, 24.—Messrs Beetham, Bruce, Bryce, Buchanan, J. C. Buckland, W. E. Buckland, Conolly, Duncan, Fergus, Hirst, Hursthouse, Bake, Dance, Macarthur, M. J. S. Mackenzie, McMillan, Moate, Pearson, G. E. Richardson, Rolleston, Sutter, Trimble, Walker, and Wilson. Pairs.— For : Messrs Dodson, Turnbull, O’Connor, J. C. Brown, and Fitzherbert. Against—l Messrs Fulton, Peacock, Garrick, Devestam, and Johnston. Majority against second reading—one. The House then (12.50) rose.

FRIDAY, JUDY 16, The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. THE DISTRICT RAILWAY SCANDAi. Sir GEORGE GREY asked the Minister of Justice : Upon whose recommendation was Mr E. Slee appointed a Justice of the Peace, and what was the date of his appointment ? The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in reply, said he thought the hon gentleman would see that it was particularly inexpedient, and not right that the information which the Government received, or representations made to the Government respecting appointments to the Bench, should be given to the House. He was not aware that there was any precedent for the question ; and, therefore, it was his duty t® decline to give any further information on the subject, even though it might be proclaimed on the housetops. He might say that local representations had been made in this matter since 1874, and Mr Slee was appointod on fcli© Bfcli Juno, 1885, before the last session of Parliament. The Government, of course, was responsible for the appointment, and under the circumstances there was, he conceived, "no necessity for giving any further information. Mr TURNBULL moved the adjournment of the House, considering the answer most unsatisfactory. The House should be given the information asked for. There was a great feeling throughout the Colony, against the nominated system, and he did not wonder at it, when the Government took this course. The PREMIER said if the Government gave the name of the person who recommended the appointment they might as well have evidence as to the Cabinet’s proceedings m the matter. He was opposed to the nominated system, but he did not think the Government • should be asked to give these particulars. Sir GEORGE GREY said he would refer to Mr Slee’s letter. The PREMIER suggested that the next question bore uDon that letter. Sir GEORGE GREY said the Government could not get rid of the question of adjournment in that manner. (It would not be competent to move the adjournment on the next question.) Sir George proceeded to quote from the letter written by Mr Slee, which was produced in connection with the District Railways Committee. The letter (written to Major Steward) stated that the Waimate Railway Company would recognise “your’s and ’s valuable services ” [in negotiating the sale of debentures to the Government]. That blank, he believed, ought to be filled by the name of the Colonial Treasurer. He went on to refer to Major Steward’s evidence before the Committee. He contended that Mr Slee should have been reprimanded for the offer he made to Major Steward and .blank. The Colonial Treasurer should have been warned that he was entering into a business transaction with a Person who had used such language. (Hon Member : He was not.) Sir George said that was the point he wished to elicit. He contended that the Act had not been intended to allow tne purchase of debentures in the way they had been purchased. There was illegality m making the purchase before the law was made ; and because the proper steps had not been made afterwards. He was delighted to hear that the Treasurer had not been aware of the manner in which Mr Slee had approached an hon member, and no doubt the hon gentleman would tell the House that had he known he would not have entered into the negotiations. Sir JLJLITJS VOGEL explained that he had not spoken when the report was discussed, because he had believed that the motion made by the Premier would be traversed by the original question of the report of the CommitMr J. W. THOMSON interrupted to ask whether he would have an opportunity of bers, however, must not discuss the resolution already carried on the subject. The TREASURER, continuing, said he was surprised when the debate ended so suddenly. He failed to see why the Committee had mentioned him, and he considered, the commencement of the paragraph referring to him was most unwarrantable. The hon gentleman went on to say he agreed that Mr Slee’s - letter was an insult to the gentleman to whom it was written, and should have been a cause of indignation to him. He (Sir Julius Vogel) attended the Committee, and gave evidence as he was asked. He thought the House must be struck by the want of consistency between the order of reference and the report. He eulogised as a man and a gentleman Mr J. C. Buckland, who, he said, frankly acknowledged that he had made a mistake. But that was iu marked contrast to the action of the Committee. The Committee was to inquire whether a member had been guilty of a barbarous outrage on Parliament :ry institutions, and, having found the charge to be untrue, a full apology should have been mads to the hon member. He referred to the energy always shown by Major Steward in the measures brought up by that gentleman. Dealing with the evidence, he said tha gist of the correspondence was to the effect that Major Steward had no idea that the Government would buy the debentures

when he wrote to the Hon Mr Campbell. It wa3 a question whether the hon member should have retired when he found the Government was willing to buy the debentures. That, he believed, was the whole point of the matter. It did not follow, because many hon members said they would have thrown the business up at that juncture, that the hon member was to blame for continuing with it. It did not appear that the hon member urged the Government to give a high price for the debentures, and it was not shown that the Government could have purchased them at a cheaper price. The Government had made up its mind, it appeared, what price they would pay. When he heard his colleague say that Mr Peacock was implicated, he expected to find that that gentleman was committed, but when he read the evidence, however, he found it most inconsistent with the report. It appeared from it that the directors of the Rotorua Company did not know Major Steward was a member of Parliament until they had entered into negotiations with him. Mr Peacock gave his evidence most straightforwardly on that point, when be (Sir Julius Vogel) was called before the Committee, he sent to the Treasury and got the papers, upon which he gave his evidence to the best of ability. Since then he had come across a memorandum which he had written on the matter shortly after last session, which would more fully explain his views on the matter. It was in his mind to prevent the debentures being hawked at Home by different companies by the Government buying them. He then read the memorandum, directing special attention to portions of it suggesting that the Public Works Minister should submit the proposals for purchase of debentures to the companies, without pressure; and he (the Treasurer) reserved the right to purchase the debentures out of such fund as he thought best. Attached was a memorandum from the Secretary to the Treasury, dated 3rd October, 1885, stating that it had. been submitted to the Controller-General. A little later Major Steward came to him, and stated that authorised to act for companies. The Treasurer explained that he had not purchased the Rotorua debentures until he found the Dun-troon-Hakateremea Company would not sell. He went on to say that no one imagined when the Bill was passed that he would have, as he had, LBOOO to the credit of the fund. He had acted with Major Steward in the matter as he would with any agent, and the House must recognise it was easier to do this. than to act through correspondence. It was impossible to expect the Government to act as dry-nurse for hen members. He was asked day after day to make different purchases, and he would simply insult hon members if he asked them, every time whether they received pecuniary benefit by these transactions. He complained that the Committee had commented on his evidence, and had gone beyond their functions. Their deliberations bore evidence of hatred, malice and uncharitableness. He believed he had as lofty a conception of the purity of Parliament as any one, but he did not think it was possible to effect that purity by Acts of Parliament, or, in a little country like this, to conduct negotiations with the Government independent of the asssistance of hon members. _ Hon members, for instance, were interested in almost everything that came before the House. The House of Commons, in the Manchester Canal Bill case, had ruled again, this time by an enormous majority, that Directors of companies could vote on questions concerning the companies. It was satisfactory to find so strong a desire to uphold the purity of Parliament, and he, for one, had never done anything to derogate from that purity. He believed there was not anywhere a more pure Begislature than that of New Zealand, _ now, or as it had been for years past. Referring to Mr Slee’s letter, Sir Julius said he did not thank the Commitee for leaving those blanks in it—(Hear, hear) —for it had placed him in a false position. He was amazed to hear it suggested that he was the person mentioned, for he did not know the writer. He considered his name had been used most unwarrantably, and he agreed that the letter was an insult to Parliament. It was_a wrong thing for an hon member to allow himself to be influenced by pecuniary considerations ; but it was worse for a Cabinet Minister to prostitute his position to such influences. (Hear, hear.) He understood, in regard to the next question, that the Premier would suggest a conference between himself, the speaker, and the leader of the Opposition as to. what steps should be taken against the . writer of the letter. In conclusion, he said that he had been subjected to newspaper comments on the matter, and with reference to two newspapers in this city, he might say that he had instructed his solicitor to commence actions against them, and they would, he thought, be taught useful lessons. (Cheers.) Mr DANCE, who followed, said that he had on the previous evening gone to see Sir Julius Vogel, and happened to mention that the Treasurer’s was the name meant in the letter. Sir Julius was very much. surprised, and expressed his intention of assisting to bring Mr Slee to book for the letter lie had written. „ , _ Mr THOMSON (Chairman of the Committee), said he spoke with some reluctance. It had been his intention in the original debate to rise and defend the Committee and its report if they were assailed. But there was nothing to reply to. Major Steward made a personal explanation ; but the hon gentleman was placed in a peculiar position, and he did not think it necessary to reply to him. Then the Premier made a mild speech, and moved a motion which endorsed the report —it said, “ You have done nothing wrong —don’t do it again.” The Colonial Treasurer now found fault with the Committee for not inserting the name in the letter. He, as chairman of the Committee, had not informed any human being whose name it was in the letter. The reason why it was left out was that the Committee thought it right to leave the name blank, just as in a letter produced in court of justice a piece of paper was pasted over a name. The Treasurer had attributed malicious motives to the movers for the Committee. He (Mr Thomson) expressed an opinion in the lobbies .that the matter should be inquired into by a committee, and hon members had asked bim to move for a committee. After consideration, he did so, first showing the proposed motion to Major Steward, who made one alteration. That Committee, he contended, was a thoroughly fair one, composed of men independent of party considerations. It had been said that he should have moved the adoption of the report. He did not think it was his duty V do that, he had not been asked by the Committee to do it. His duty ended when he laid the report 90 the table of the House. He had no feeling in the matter—his only feeling was to do justice in the matter. If he had moved the adoption of the report it would have appeared that he was anxious to sheer the matter home to Major Steward. He had been asked by several members to do what he did. (The Premier : Who asked you ?) Several members. (1 he Premier : Name them.) The Committee had done good work. It had brought to light transactions very discreditable to all concerned. And the House had agreed that that was so. _ Mr GARRICK, as a member of the Com-

mittee, wished to make a few remarks. He expressed regret at the tone of the Treasurer’s references to the Committee. The question the Committee had to consider was whether the action of Major Steward had not been such as to impeach the integrity of a member of the House and whether the Colonial Treasurer should’not have restrained the hon member when he found in what position he was acting Mr Garrick sketched, the history of legislation in regard to the district railways, and said that when the Act was before the House last year it seemed that the purchase of the Waimate debentures was not a savory question in the nostrils of members of the House. This purchase was thrown out, and subsequently re-in-serted on the motion of Major Steward, He read the letter of Mr Slee, inserting the name “Vogel” in the blank. He submitted that the Committee bad only shown proper delicacy in leaving out the name of the Treasurer before he had had time to see and consider it. The matter was one, he considered, which warranted inquiry, and it was one of great public notoriety. Major Steward had admitted in evidence that he was glad an inquiry had been made. He (Mr Garrick) held that Mr Buckland had not at all cleared up the statement he originally made as to commission to be paid to Major Steward. With regard to the Committee’s report, he said there had been no breach of the Disqualification Act, because under that Act a member had to receive 850 in Government money. Major Steward, he said, ought not to have been sui prised at receiving commission. Major Steward lobbied for the District Rail ways Act with an assiduity bordering upon impudence. He could never leave it alone in the lobbies. He lobbied for it by every means, fair and foul. ' In conclusion, Mr Garrick submitted that it was proved that the Treasurer was one of the persons with whom Major Steward sai t he had influence, whoever the other was. While on the one hand there was notechnical breach of the Disqualification . Act, on the other the Committee were right in saying that his position must have been ever present to the mind of the hon member for W aimate (Major Steward) in the whole of his subsequent conduct, and one must say that it must be a curious order of mind that was not struck by the indecency of the position in endeavoring to maintain his integrity as a member of Parliament even when he walked off with a thousand guineas in his pocket as the result of his efforts. Major Steward acted as only a rogue or a fool would have acted. The hon member proceeding, exonerated Mr Peacock, and said the hon member for Waimate must admit that the white flower of a blameless . life of which he had spoken had got a little soiled in this transaction. He deprecated the stand taken by the Treasurer and the Premier, and said it was extremely hard to say where, the mind of the Government was. He again defended the Committee from the attack of the Colonial Treasurer. (Cheers.) . Major STEWARD said the House had just heard a very able speech from a gentleman who was accustomed to make such speeches. The hon gentleman had gathered the point's together, and treated them as an advocate would. Major Steward, (went on to. explain that Mr Garrick had made a mistake in saying that the Act was passed at 2 o’clock in the morning. With regard to Mr Slee’s letter, he said he had no idea that it was meant that he (Major Steward) was to share any commission with Sir Julius Vogel, who was referred to. he understood, simply as the person who had. introduced, and been instrumental in passing, the Act. Seeing when before the Committee that the name of a gentleman in no way connected with the transaction appeared in t.he letter, he suggested to the Committee that the name should not be mentioned. But he submitted that the Committee should simply have published that part of the letter which referred to him. In conclusion, he said he had no doubt he deserved to be censured, but he again -repeated that there had been no corrupt intention on his part. He had not the ghost of an idea when lie entered into the transaction that the Government would buy. He did not think that anything he had done would reflect on the honor or integrity of the House. Mr WIPERE said this was a question that had to be faced. The hon member had received over DI,OOO for this transaction, and on Tuesday he (Mr Wi Pere) would bring a resolution up that that amount be refunded — (laughter)—ter the benefit of sufferers by the Tarawera eruptions. It was too great a piece of luck for one man to have. Mr W. E. BUCKLAND said the hon member for St. Alban’s was quite right in saying that the District Railways Purchasing Bill was re-committed at half-past two in the morning. Major Steward had asked him to stay late, so that they might take the House by surprise, and get the Waimate railway put in the Bill. Mr BARRON objected to the Treasurer’s remarks 011 the Committee, and said that, looking back now, he believed that the report was a perfectly fair one, and one which he should repeat under the circumstances. Major STEWARD quoted the journals of the House to show that the Waimate line was inserted in the schedule in the daytime. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND said the hon member defeated the final stage of the Bill, and had it recommitted at a quarter past 2. Mr J. C. BUCKLAND explained that the circumstances under which he had written to Major Steward’s constituents was that, just after the Act was passed he congratulated Major Steward on getting the Waimate railway into the Bill. The hon gentleman then asked him to write to his (Major Steward’s) constituents and tell them of the services which he had done for them. He did this, and some time after got a letter from a gentleman in Major Steward’s constituency asking him, as he read it, to contribute, as one .of those benefited by the railway, to something to be given to Major Steward. He found, however, now, that that was a wrong impression.. But he did not in any way endorse the action of Major Steward. They must disabuse themselves of the idea of looking about for “ pickings,” and he strongly condemned Major Steward. Mr BRUCE felt that by the speech of the Colonial Treasurer every member of the Committee had been placed on his defence. He denied that he had been influenced by hatred, malice, or uncharitableness in his action. He denied that the Committee had been biassed or had sdtin the position of prosecutor. Mr SUTTER objected to the statement that the Act had passed easily, and pointed out that he had spoken so strongly upon it that he was called to order and made to sit down. Mr FULTON, as a member of the Committee, said he had been on the most friendly relations with Major Steward for years. He said there was no evidence to show that the Committee was actuated by malice or spite. Sir Julius Vogel’s name was left out of the letter at Major Steward’s suggestion. He had been asked by many hon members in the lobbies who the “blank” was? But he had persistently refused to reply, He had the statement of one hon gentleman that the hon member for Waimate himself had told him what the name was. He held that the Committee was perfectly right in the conclusion it came to. The Treasurer should have given warning to the hon member when he. found what his position was. He did not think the

hon member was corrupt, but he thought he had been indiscreet —almost indecent —in the way in which he went into the matter, knowing what influence his position would give him. The usual adjournment was taken at 5.30.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. The PREMIER moved that the orders of the day set down for the afternoon be postponed till the debate on the question of adjournment had been decided. With regard to the letter written by Mr Slee, he had intended to make a statement to the House that night. As far as he could see at present there was.no ground for criminal or civil proceedings against Mr Slee, and the question whether he had committed a breach of privilege was very doubtful. He would express his opinion as to a breach of privilege on Monday, after looking up the authorities. At present he did not think there was auy breach. The motion was agreed to, and the debate was proceeded with. Mr FULTON denied that the Committee had left the name in the letter blank, with a view of making pointed allusion to the Treasurer.

Sir JULIUS VOGEL said he was not charging the whole of the Coramitte. One member of the Committee had divulged the name, and had expressed his regret that “he was not able to make it hotter for Yosel.” Mr FULTON, continuing, contended that the Treasurer should have warned the member for Waimate that he was at least entering into a transaction which was questionable. He denied that the Committee had been vindictive. There was some curious evidence given before then as to a claim for “ services rendered.” Mr J. C. Buckland, asked what this was, said he had originally been under the impression that it was for services in passing the Act.; but since then the hon gentleman had satisfied himself, at any rate, that that was riot so. He would have been better satisfied if the Treasurer and Major Steward had admitted that they had been engaged in a transaction which was not right, instead of trying, as they had tried, to justify themselves. Ho would ask whether it was politic to sail so close to the wind in these matters. He pointed out that the whole House was concerned in this matter, and hoped that the manner in which it. had been treated would tend to prevent a repetition of such a transaction. Mr O'CONOR approached the question with an impartial mind, and he. regretted that.the matter had been treated in a party spirit. (No !) Me said it had. He contended that the hon member for Waimate had. not done any more with regard to the Waipaate Railway than a member would do in the interests of his constituents. The agency which the hon gentleman took up did not appear to be particularly with the Government. It was a question whether he should not have withdrawn when the Government offered to purchase, but would he not have had his commission all the same ? There was a great deal of mockery about a discussion of this sort. The Committee had not kept within the order of reference, and their report was a re-hash and misrepresentation of the evidence. With regard to the Colonial Treasurer, he failed to understand the Committee s report. Mr W. D. STEWART said he found on analysing the report that there was really very little in it, although it appeared at first sight to be very condemnatory, and he admired the ingenuity of those who drew it up. He did not think there was anything in the evidence to cast a reflection on the Treasurer. .It apoeared to him that there was .nothing to' prevent an hon member acting as agent in transactions with the Government. As to Major Steward, he did not.think the hon member had any wrong interest in the passage of the Act; but he believed he. “ had a lively expectation of getting something out of it ” afterwards. He was of opinion that whatever opinions might be held in regard to the abstract question, this could not be doubted — that there had been considerable business ability on either side, and a transaction had been closed, which might have lasted for some time. The question as a whole was one on which differences of opinion might exist, but he, said that, taking a just.view of the matter, no member had been guilty of misconduct. He hoped that hon members would not haggle over a matter which admitted of two interpretations. Mr DUNCAN said this was made a party question. To show that there was bias in the Committee, he said there was one member who wanted, when they were summing up their report, to bring it in that Mr Steward had known he was to get the commission when the Act was being passed. Mr THOMSON said he had no recollection of that. ~ ~ ~ , Mr DUNCAN said he would assist the hon gentleman’s recollection. He explained that at the committee meeting Mr Barron, Mr Fulton, Mr Garrick, and Mr Ormond submitted resolutions, but had agreed to modications he suggested He complained of the bitterness shown by Mr ana denied that there was anything in the evidence which accused Major Steward. He thought the Treasurer was to blame for having made an injudicious speech which had provoked this debate. , . , , , Mr BRYCE said the speech just made had done more to convince him that the Committee was unbiassed, free from malice, hate, or uncharitableness, than anything that had been said, because they accepted the resolutions of the hon gentleman himself. Speaking of the defence Mr Stewart had made, surely it was a strange defence when the hon gentlemen making it said Major Steward had a lively expectation, when a Bill was before the House, of getting something out of it. If this were a party question, then there were on one side members who supported the action of Major Steward, and the other opposed it, and he preferred to be with the latter. The House only the other day passed a resolution to the effect that it was unwise for any member of the House to enter into negotiations in which the Government was either buyer or seller. The Treasurer should be the last to infringe it. .The Treasurer knew Major Steward was in the transaction, and assisted him in it. Then the blame of the House was on the Treasurer, if the House s feeling was embodied in that resolution. He would go further than the spirit of that resolution and say that, putting the Government out of the question, a member of the House who promoted the passage of a Bill “ in the lively expectation of getting something out of it ” did wrong, altogether independent of whether or not the Government bought or sold. (Hear, hear.) He would a3k the hon gentleman whether the idea did not occur to him that the debentures would come into his hands after the Bill had passed in a better form than before. (Major Steward said he was quite prepared to say that it did not. His idea was that the debentures would be as good as cash, and would be handed to the Bank.) He deprecated the accusations made by the Colonial Treasurer against the Committee, and said if such language was tolerated it would impair the usefulness of Committees. He contended for his part that the Committee had not been uncharitable or committed any outrage, but that, on the contrary, it had done goad service to the House and to the country.

? Mr KERR said the harm had been done byMajor Steward himself in producing privateletters which he had no right to produce. Mr LEVESTAM considered the Committee were biassed in their report, which, he said, was contrary to the evidence. It was clearly shown, he contended, that Major Steward had no expectation when the Bill was passed or getting anything out of it. He . agreed that Major Steward should not have brought private letters up in the way he did, or at any rate he should have seen that the name was not obliterated. Mr BEVAN said he had come to the conclusion that the Committee’s report was not in accordance with the evidence. He explained that when the Act was before the House, the hon member asked him to support the introduction into the Bill of the Waimate line, saying, when he was asked why he took so great an interest in the matter that “ every other hon member interested had got his railway through, and how was he (Major Steward.) to face his constituents, seeing that he had failed to get his railway in.” He (Mr Bevan) asked the House to look at the better side of human nature. He held, too, that the hon member fer Waimate had already been acquitted by the House and the country —for outside the House there was not a breath of suspicion against the hon gentleman. With regard to the Colonial Treasurer, he defended that hon gentleman as one whose name would live when others were forgotten. He saw absolutely nothing wrong in Major Steward’s action. Major ATKINSON felt himself bound to offer a few remarks on the question. He thought it was to be regretted that the Colonial Treasurer had given such a turn as he had to the debate by using the language he had in attacking the Committee—language, it seemed to him, which was most unjustifiable. The Committee was composed of ten as impartial men as could be found in the House. The House had only to look at the Committee’s report in a general way—-and a gentleman who took Major Steward’s side in the Committee told them that the Committee at once accepted his suggestions, and thus Mr Duncan, by stating this, bad condemned the language of the Treasurer. He (Major. Atkinson) believed the Committee had done its duty in a fair and impartial manner, and there were no grounds whatever for the attack made upon it. He had known Major Steward for many years, and the hon gentleman had been opposed to him in politics. He had always found the hon gentleman as good as or better than his word ; and until he saw this report he never believed there was any just complaint against him. The hon gentleman came to him when the report was presented, and asked him, as an old member of the House, to read the evidence carefully. He did so, and he was bound to say that he arose from its perusal with very painful feelings ; for it seemed to him that the Committee were not only justified in their report, but, further, that if the hon gentleman wished to stand high in the estimation of his fellow® he would demand a further inquiry. For it seemed to him that the Committee did not go far enough—there was something wanting. With regard to the hon member’s interest in the Bill, he had seen him as active in the interests of other Bills. While the Bill was still before the House, and before it became law, Major. Steward got a letter from the Secretary to thq Waimate Railway Company. That letter was’so gross an insult that the hon gentleman ought not to have received it. He should have at once shown it to the Colonial Treasurer, and then brought it before the House. Yet the hon gentlemen does not do this ; and he produces the letter to the Committee without apparently cansidering that there was anything wrong in it. He accepted the hon gentleman’s statement that he did not know at the time that the Government would buy—he was bound to accept it —but he did not think the outside public would accept, it. The letter referred to a conversation the writer had had with Major Steward, and he would ask whether that letter alone was such an authority as would be given to a gentleman to conduct such a transaction as this. Well, the hon gentleman goes t® the bank, and wires to the Company. The Company immediately say, “We don’t want you to go to the bank ; we want you to go to the Government Insurance Association.” The hon gentleman accepts those instructions, .but before the Treasurer has received instructions from the Insurance Association, he intimates that he is willing to buy the debentures himself. That was a peculiar circumstance —the Treasurer and the Government Insurance Association in competition. He would ask whether the Treasurer could not have dealt as well with the companies as through Major Steward. In this way he considered the Treasurer’s explanation very unsatisfactory. He (Major Atkinson) could come to no other conclusion than this than that the LIO3O paid to the hon gentleman came out of the public chest, and if the hon gentleman wished to clear his character he would pay every penny back to that source. Hon members ought to be careful in dealing with matters like this, for discredit on one member was discredit on all ; and even supposing that the hon gentleman had been perfectly guileless in the matter —that he had acted in innocence—then if he did not pay back what he had made by that act he would receive a harsher name than was now applied to him. So long as the hon member had the money in his pocket he would be looked upon with suspicion. When the public came to see the hon gentleman’s aetion —his interest in the Bill—the effect would be that the hon gentleman would see that he (Major Atkinson) was right, And the hon gentleman had himself said he had made a mistake. He (Major Atkinson) was very much pained by the action of the Treasurer, who justified Major Steward's action. For Major Steward went out of his business to make this enormous profit. With regard to the evidence of Mr J.. O. Buckland, he regretted that the Committee had not probed that matter to the bottom. It appeared that a letter had been written to Mr Buckland to the effect that Major Steward had made a claim for L3OO or L4OO. The hon member was indignant and burned the letter ; but subsequently found or believed he found—that he was wrong in his idea of the letter. The explanation of that matter was not satisfactory, and the outside public would not believe it, and it was to be regretted that the letter could not have been produced. The hon gentleman (Mr Buckland) said that he was subsequently informed that what he was applied to for was in connection with the sale of the debentures ; but it must be remembered in the first place that Mr Buckland was not at all interested in the sale of debentures, and, further, that he was not applied to till som® months after the sale actually took place. Major Atkinson went on to say that he was surprised when the Premier moved his resolution, and he thought had it been delayed a little, the House would have been more likely to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. In conclusion he said he protested against the doctrine of the Treasurer, that hon members could undertake these transactions; in that protest, he was glad to say, he was backed up by the Premier and the House. He hoped

that the hon member implicated would not lot the matter end here—for there was still a public scandal attached to it—but that he would refund the money, and insist on a further inquiry. . , t Mr ROLLBSTON said that the manner in which the Colonial Treasurer and Major Steward had impugned the Committee, made it necessary, he thought, for him to express an opinion as to the conduct of the Committee. He deprecated the language of the Treasurer, and said if that gentleman intended to bring the matter into the law courts the public would have an opportunity of. judging upon the matter. He did not believe, however, that the public would reverse the decision. .He thought the member for Waimate had failed to perceive the line between right and wrong ; and he thought it was the duty of the Colonial Treasurer to point that line out. He belie ved that the report of the Committee would be endorsed as fair and judicious. Mr TURNBULL said he had made the motion for adjournment because he knew that this fire was smouldering. He was sure, he said, that every one who knew Major Steward was sorry that he had unwittingly and unconsciously gone into a transaction which reflected upon himself, and tarnished the honor of the House. He was quite sure the hon member had gone into the matter, first with the view of benefiting his constituents, and then afterwards— accidentally—circumstances had cropped up which altogether changed the aspect of the matter. The motion for adjournment was then put and lost, and the matter dropped. GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. The PREMIER, in answer to an application by Mr Ormond, said it was not possible to put the dace of the Government Insurance poll further back. REPRESENTATION ACT, 1000. The PREMIER moved for leave to introduce this Bill. ~ , Major ATKINSON asked whether the hon ge The™REMfEß d said the Bill would be cirCU Mtrjor^ATKLNSON would have preferred to have the explanation. The PREMIER said he would explain it on the motion for second reading. The Bill was then introduced and read a first time. The Becond reading was set down for Monday night. BILLS INTRODUCED. Bills were introduced and read a first time, as follows :—Sir J. Vogel, a Bill to amend the Mortgage Debentures Act, 1885 : Mr Pole, the Deceased Persons Estates Duties Act, 1881, Amendment Bill; the Administration Act Extension Bill. WORKMEN’S WAGES BILL. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS moved the committal of this Bill. Mr GUINNESS moved that the committal of the Bill be postponed till Tuesday. This was carried. 'J3TBST OFFENDERS PROB VTION BILL. This Bill was committed, agreed to with amendments, and reported. MINING BILL. This Bill was considered in committee. Progress was reported at 1.40, and the House rose. MONDAY, JULY 19. The House met at 7.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented, personal explanation. Mr LEVESTAM made a personal explanation. He quoted the Press Association report of Friday’s proceedings in the House, in which he was misreported. He contradicted this mistake. THE LATE MR. FITZGERALD.

The PREMIER laid on the table the last volume of the Early New Zealand Hansard, comoiled by the late Mr Maurice Fitz Gerald. In doing so Sir Robert Stout said—With -regard to this last volume compiled by the late Mr Maurice Fitz Gerald, T may say, regarding him, that when he undertook the work he was suffering from the illness which has latterly cost him his life. I do not know if it is fitting for me to-epeak much regarding him, but I may sav that not only did he perforin his work ably and well but he was, in fact, one of our young colonials who took an intense interest in the earlv history Of the Colony, and he was exceedingly pleased to undertake the work, and to know that in this way he was connecting himself with the history of the Colony. He knew, when he was performing his work, that he had not long to live, and he felt that all through his work. Bug all his desire was to show the people of the Colony in his last illness that he, a .young colonist, took an interest in the Colony, and was able to leave a name behind him in this way. He was a young man of great parts, .a fine intellect, and, 1 need hardly say. fine moral character, and I think the Colony has lost in him one of its most Pr Sir GE'URGE GREY asked whether he had ■understood the Premier to say that Mr FitzGerald was dead;? The PREMIER said yes. Sir GEORGE GREY suggested then, that the Government should have a tombstone erected to his memory, with an inscription showing that this was the last work of his K£ The PREMIER thanked the hon member for the suggestion, which, he said, he would consider. „. THE DISTURBANCES AT HAWERA. Major ATKINSON asked the Defence Minister (without notice) whether he would state to the House what had really 'taken place -on the West Coast, and what steps the Government had taken, or proposed to take, in order to render the law supreme m that disDEFENCE MINISTER said the .hon member would have seen from th f , ne . v f s Pf what had taken place with regard to the arrest number of 'Natives, and the forcible emry of ,the Natives on to the land of the settlers. Major ATKINSON asked whether what bad appeared in the newspapers was tolerably MINISTER said not altogether, hut it gave a very fair report. He Lad received last night from Inspector Psrdy^ ly IS Hon. J. Sallance, Wellington, litokowaru, with about 200 followers, went on to Hastie’s land, near here, and commenced building whare. Sergant Anderson with three .constables, by my instructions, arrested the leaders, but the Natives blocked the gate and prevented them being taken away. .On receiving wire fro Pungarehu to that effect I started f *r Opunake, obtaining a body of constables from Comnel Roberts, but on arrival met Sergeant Anderon coming off the ground with a number of prisoners, arrested with the assistance ot settlers, Titokowaru amongst them. X am sending them on to Opunake, so as to leave tne police at liberty for further action if necessary. A large body of Maoris are congregated at Opunake and Oakura with the intention ot ploughing to-morrow. After arranging matters here and at Opunake I intend to travel all night, so as to reach Oakura early in the morning t and there take what action may be necessary.—Wm. Paedy, Inspector.” The Minister went on to say that with the assistance of

the settlers, who had behaved remarkably well, and with great determination, courage and forbearance, the ringleaders in the affair were taken prisoners by the police, and sent on to Manaia, and thence to Opunake. Nine Natives had been arrested, seven of whom were at Opunake, while two were on their way there. That evening he had received the following telegram from Pungarehu “ Hon. Mr Baliance, Wellington. Everything quiet along the coast. No sign of ploughing _ anywhere. No excitement here. The Maoris are very affable in their manner, and ip no way sullen. I arrived at Oakura at daylight, saw Te Whiti, he told me that no ploughing should be done there. If Te Whiti had a grievance, let him write to the Native Minister and get it removed. Prisoners are quite safe. I forgot to mention in my telegram yesterday that Hastie, with the assistance of other settlers, impounded all the Maori horses and bullocks on his land, pound is being guarded to prevent a rescue. Wm. Pardy, Inspector. He might state that he had been advised that the criminal law was sufficient to deal with the whole difficulty, and the force at the disposal of the Government was ample to cope with any difficulty that might arise on the coast. He had been told that the Natives had violated the law, and there was no doubt as to the adequacy of the law to punish them. With regard to Te "Whiti, he had received positive information that it was on his advice the Natives had acted, anel on Saturday Te Whiti was warned that on his head the responsibility of any disturbance would rest. With regard to the measures to be taken by the Government in this matter, the hon member would excuse him from saying anything at present. In answer to a further question by Major Atkinson, the Minister said the resources at the disposal of the Government were sufficient to cope with the difficulty. Ihe Government had sent, in consequence of the prisoners having to be guarded at Opunake, a force of Permanent Militia (Constabulary) to take the place of those guarding the prisoners. The number of that force was 20. He did not think there would be any further trouble.

ORDER of business. The PREMIER made a statement regarding the order in which the Government propose to take public business. The only supply they should ask for that night was an Imprest Supply Bill, and they hoped also to take a few clauses of the Charitable Aid Amendment Bill. Next day they proposed to take the second reading of the Loan Bill, so that the discussion might be taken on the Public Works Statement. If that discussion ended on that day, the second reading of the Representation Bill would be moved on Wednesday. He might say that the Government thought if the House assisted them to push on the business, they ought to get the work done in about a fortnight. In answer to a question, the Premier said the Government would be willing to take Thursday, and sit on Saturday for private members’ business. THE DISTRICT RAILWAYS SCANDAL. The PREMIER made a statement in regard to the letter written by Mr Slee to. Major Steward. He had promised to consider the matter and see whether it could be.brought into a breach of privilege, and, having carefully looked into authorities on Parliamentary procedure, he could not see that Slee could, be charged in any way with a breach of privilege. He made a further explanation, stating that, when he moved the motion on Major Steward’s matter last week, 'he expected that his colleague the Treasurer would speak, but the hon gentleman was prevented by the debate not going on. He would not say any more upon the matter, as. his colleague was taking proceedings in this matter for libel. Sir GEORGE GREY asked whether the 'Government intended to allow this matter, to be inquired into further, in accordance with the suggestion of Major Atdinson. The PREMIER said that question had never been submitted to him. He had only been asked to consider the question of privilege. . Sir GEORGE GREY said he was aware of that, but there had "been potent reasons urged for the matter being cleared up by an inquiry. The PREMIER preferred that notice should be given of the question. Sir GEORGE GREY thought it could be answered at once. . . _ The PREMIER said if the opinion of the Government was wanted, notice must be given of the question. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the adjournment of the House. He thought this was a, very important matter which should be cleared up. A great deal had been said as to Major Steward having produced the letter from Mr Slee, but it appeared that he was entitled to no praise for that, because the letter was produced under unavoidable circumstances, Sir George expressed his intention of proceeding further in the matter. The House, he said, appeared to be divided into two parties, one of which thought there was no harm in what had been done, while the other held a different idea. He hoped the House would unite in compelling the Government to express a decided opinion on this, which ho alluaed to as a Qisgraceful transaction.” He hoped a.party would be formed for this purpose, andhehimself would lend all the assistance in his power to such an end. Such a party would, he was sure, shake the Government on the benches, and force them to nphold the purity of the House. The motion for adjournment was not seconded, and lapsed.

IMPREST SUPPLY BILL. An Imprest Supply Bill (L220,QQ0) was passed through all its stages.

LOCAL BODIES LOAN BILL. The PREMIER moved that the amendments made by the Legislative Couneil in the L-cal Bodies Loan Bill, in clause 38, be not agreed to. The amendment was, that instead of three-fifths of the total number of vetes being polled by raising a loan, it should be majority of ratepayers. He would ask the House to disagree with that amendment, and moved for a committee to draw up reasons for the disagreement, which was agreed to. The other amendments made by the Couneil were agreed to. FIRST OFFENDERS PROBATION BILL. Mr TOLE moved the recommittal of the First Offenders Probation Bill for consideration of certain clauses. The Bill was reported with amenaments, read a third time, and passed. HQSF3TALS AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS ACT

AMENDMENT BILL. The House went into committee on the Hospitals and Charit&bl© Institutions Act Amendment Bill. Progress was reported on clause 3, and leave obtained to sit again to-morrow.

■GOLD DUTY REDUCTION BILL. The MINES MINISTER moved the second reading of the Gold Duty Reduction Bill, the object of which was, he said, to afford relief to the miners by the reduction of the gold duty of one shilling, for the next two years, namely, sixpence per ounce for the remaining period of the financial year, ending 3lst March, ISB7, and a further reduction of sixpence per ounce for the year ending 31st March, 1888. Some discussion arose as to the propriety of introducing this Bill, on the ground that similar Bills had been rejected this session by the Legislative Council, , The MINISTER pointed out that the Bill

differed from the former one, in the manner of making the reduction of the gold duty. Major ATKINSON asked the Speaker’s ruling in the matter as a point of order. The SPEAKER said the House having assumed on a former occasion that the Gold Duty Abolition Bill had been thrown out by the Upper House, it was not necessary now to search the records to ascertain what had been done in the Council. The Bill might proceed, but his ruling was not to be taken as a precedent. The second reading was then agreed to, and the Bill was referred to the Goldfields Committee. MINING BILL. This Bill was committed. It was reported with amendments. BEER DUTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The PREMIER moved the third reading of this Bill. Agreed to. MORTGAGES DEBENTURES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The PREMIER moved the second reading of this Bill. Agreed to. DECEASED PERSONS ESTATES DUTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The MINISTER of JUSTICE moved the second reading of this Bill. Agreed to. ADMINISTRATION ACT EXTENSION BILL. The MINISTER of JUSTICE moved the second reading of this Bill. Agreed to. PUBLIC BODIES LEASEHOLDS BILL. The PREMIER moved the second reading of this Bill. Agreed to. CODLIN MOTH ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. On clause 2, Governor may proclaim infected districts, Mr W. F. Buckland moved that the Chairman leave the chair. This was lost by 26 to 16. A little later Mr Hursthouse moved to report progress. This was lost by 16 to 15. Mr W. F. Buckiand moved that the Chairman leave the chair. Lost by 18 to 11. The Minister in charge (Mr Tole) then moved to report progress. Progress was reported, and the House rose at 1 o’clock. TUESDAY, JULY 20. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS, ETC. Various petitions, etc., were presented. HCTT AND PETONE GAS COMPANY’S BILL. Mr JOHNSTON moved the adoption of the report on this Bill. This was agreed to, and the Bill was read the third time and passed. WAIRAU GAS BILL. The report of the Standing Orders Committee on this Bill was agreed to. QUESTIONS. The NATIVE MINISTER, in answer to Mr Allwright, said the amount of money now expended in compilation of Maori history was L 1775. The work was far from being completed, and it was estimated by Mr White that he would finish it in 1890. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL, answering Mr Beetham, said provision would be made tor carrying the telephonic line on to Mauriceville from Masterton, and thence to Dreverton. , , _ , . . m Mr SEDDON asked the Colonial Treasurer, Whether the Government will place counties on goldfields on a fair footing with similar local bodies in settled districts, by making provision on the supplementary estimates for this financial year, and for renewing the vote of LSOOO for last year, payable to counties on goldfields who rate above fd in the pound, exclusive of rates under the Crown and Native Lands Rating Acts 1882 and 1883 ? The TREASURER, in reply, said the Government would, he thought, renew the vote ° £ The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, answering Mr Dargaville, said the question of modifying conditions attached to Government contracts was still under consideration, with a view of making further modifications. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND moved the adjournment of the House, in order that he might state that Mr Dargaville had never shown any interest in this matter until he had “ jumped somebody else’s claim ” by bringing this question up. , . _ . ~ Mr GORE hoped the Government would take steps to modify the conditions of contract. Mr DOWNIE STEWART said the effect of the conditions was to deter men of capital and enterprise from competing. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS made some remarks which were inaudible in the Press gallery. . , , . Mr FERGUS said the conditions had driven men out of the Colony. The principal contractors now in Australia were men who had gone over there from New Zealand. Mr lioekie, of Wellington, had pointed out to him recently that by a clause in the Manawatu Gorge contract works were to be done to the satisfaction of the superintending engineer, who thus had the power of putting contractors to any expense, which they could not recover. He eould ’say from experience that in none of the colonies were the conditions so arbitrary, so unfair, and so unjust as in New Zealand. The PREMIER said he did not believe that contractors had had to leave this Colony because of the conditions of contract. The matter dropped after some further discussion. . The MINISTER of JUSTICE, m answer to Mr Bradshaw, said no further steps would be taken to investigate the charges of alleged neglect against Dr Neill, Medical Superintendent of the Seacliffe Lunatic Asylum. Mr JOHNSTON asked the PostmasterGeneral, (1) Why the annual cost for maintenance, repairs, and working expenses of the telephone exchange system has not been stated in the report of the Post Office and Telegraph Department lately laid before the House ? (2) What is the amount of the said expenditure for the past year ? Sir JULIUS VOGEL replied that the information was not ready at the time, but it would be presented in a few days. The MINISTER for IMMIGRATION, m answer to Air Joyce, said he did not think there was any probability of reducing the proportion of passage money paid by friends of nominated emigrants. . The MINISTER of MARINE, in answer to Mr Joyce, said it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the Seals Fisheries Bill this session. The PREMIER, in answer to Captain Sutter, said the Provincial Auditor’s report on the Lake County Council’s accounts showed a most disgraceful state of things, and he had no doubt the ratepayers of that district would be public spirited enough to take any necessary legal steps. The NATIVE MINISTER, in answer to Dr Newman, said he could not give a positive answer as to when the Government would acquire the whole of the Waimarino Block. The process of purchase was going on very satisfactorily, but in this block, he pointed out, there were over 1000 owners. bills introduced. The TREASURER introduced the Deeds and Instruments Registration Bill, which was read the first time. THE WEST COAST DISTURBANCE. The NATIVE MINISTER read telegrams from the West Coast stating that the coast was quiet, and that Te Whiti had been arrested for inciting Natives to a breach of the peace. (Hear, hear.) Te Whiti was now at Opunake under guard. There was no likeli-

hood, he was informed, of further trouble on the coast. harbors act amendment bill. The MINISTER of MARINE moved the second reading of this Bill, the object of which, he said, was to enable Harbor Boards to keep tugs, etc. It also provided for the manner of keeping accounts, for expenditure of money on breakwaters, etc. The Minister read a snort statement with respect to the operations and condition of Harbor Boards in the Colony. The second reading was agreed to. LOAN BILL-PUBLIC WORKS DISCUSSION. Sir JULIUS VOGEL moved the second reading of the New Zealand Loan Bill. He thought it advisable, perhaps, to make an explanation at that stage of the Bill. The Bill was in accordance with the Financial Statement, and proposed to authorise a loan of L 1,500,000 for railway purposes. With regard to the question of what would be available for other purposes than railways, he would be very frank with the House—(hear, hear) and he should not be surprised to see headings m the “ penny dreadfuls ” of the colony some such heading as, “Cabinet secrets —remarkable revelations.” He went on to explain that LIOO,OOO, cost of purchasing land along the North Island trunk line, would be a charge on that line. Out of the new loan it was proposed to purchase the rails, etc., from the old fund at a cost of about L 200.000 or L 300.000. This was explained in the Public Works Statement, and he might say that that Statement was made without any ad vice from him —he did not write a line of it. The LBOO.OOO available for miscellaneous purposes, had therefore been increased by the LIOO,OOO, and the L 200.000 or L 300.000 he had alluded to. That was a summary of what he had said. He should like to say a few words on the amount of the loan. So many false statements had been made with regard to the intention of the Government, he might say that he had never proposed to borrow a large amount. He had simply suggested that the railways should be carried on in a reasonable manner as circumtancespermitted. He quoted former despatches sent by him to show that he had, when at Waiwera, said that the Government would ask this year for a loan of L 1,500.000, including the North Island trunk line. In March last the Government received from the AgentGeneral a telegram stating that a letter in the Times said the Government proposed to borrow L 10,000,000, and asking permission to contradict it. He (Sir Julius) had accordingly wired to the Agent-General explaining the policy of the Government. . He quoted freely from correspondence on this question. . Statements had been published about that time in many papers, to the effect that the Government intended to ask for large loans. Th.e proposals of the Government at that time really were similar to those of the late Government when the three-million loan was authorised. These reports became frequent and the Government had therefore decided to deal with two years. The proposals of the Government was to obtain authority for borrowing a sum, to extend over some years, as was done in other colonies, but the Government had now adopted another course. He deprecated the attacks made upon the credit of the Colony. Whatever hard times the Colony had had to pass through, they were nothing compared to what had been experienced in other colonies. The private losses in New Zealand were a mere bagatelle in comparison with those suffered in other Colonies. With regard to private borrowing, he would point out that these matters were subject to adjustment in many ways. Private borrowing was simply a convenient means for the employment of capital owned at a distance. The Kimberley rush would probably affect the Colony for a time, but if the rush was a large one New Zealand would profit by the extra population in Western Australia —there would be a greater demand for our supply. He quoted figures to show that the increase in the value of property under the property tax valuation was L 4,769,000 in boroughs, and of county property LI, 880,000—that was in three years. In conclusion the hon. gentleman (who was very imperfectly heard in the gallery) repeated his assurances of the satisfactory position of the Colony. The debate was adjourned till evening on the motion of Mr BRYCE.

BEER DUTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was being considered in committee when the 5.30 adjournment was taken.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Progress was reported on the Beer Duty Bill. LOAN BILL. Mr BRYCE resumed the discussion on this Bill. The Treasurer, he said, had commenced in that dramatic manner which was so dear to his soul. He commenced by talking abqut “Cabinet secrets,” but he (Mr Bryce) had waited in vain for those secrets. As to the loan, and the change in the Government’s proposals, a change of the Government front was nothing new. What question of policy had they not changed front on? The Treasurer appeared to think that it was a great sin to allow railway votes to be applied to other purposes, yet in the same breath he went on to say that the Government proposed to devote part of the North Island Trunk Line loan to purchase of Native lands. The Treasurer had made the mistake of undervaluing his hearers —he actually laughed at the House. Mr Bryce blamed the Treasurer for denouncing, as he had denounced, those people who held different views from his own as to the borrowing policy of the Colony. Ho contended that the Treasurer had not abandoned his idea of a large borrowing policy—that he was even now carrying out such a policy. This question of extensive borrowing was a very serious one. He was of opinion it. was clear that we must go on borrowing for a time, if only for this reason, that a sudden stoppage of borrowing would mean danger in the way of payment of interest. But the Government’s one idea of inducing the prosperity of the Colony was to borrow, borrow, borrow. If next year the liabilities were the same as this year, there would be nothing left for expenditure, and another loan would have to be asked for to meet expenditure. He submitted that this meant that we were going too fast. A matter at which one might be surprised, if it were possible to be surprised at any change of the Government front was one. in the Public Works Statement. Some time ago the Minister expressed himself in favor of nonpolitical Railway Boards, but the Government had apparently given up the idea. The Treasurer was proposing to earmark the North Island Trunk Line loan, but it was a curious way of earmarking a loan to ask at the same time for LIOO,OOO to be expended in the purchase of Native land. The Government had got too small a vote, for this purpose on the Estimates, and had, in consequence, to depend on the trunk line loan to smother up payments that would have to be made on account of other lands. The Premier was disposed to curtail the expenditure of borrowed money on roads ; but he (Mr Bryce) did not agree altogether with that; for he believed it was folly in many instances to expect railways to do the principal work of opening up the country. He had a word or two to say with regard to open lines. Expenditure in that direction wanted a great deal of watching.

This, after all, was only a small country, and we did not need railways of such an excellence as were needed in other countries, and he would not, if he were the Minister, sanction further expenditure on any line which met public requirements to improve it. He ob<* • jected to the proposal to vote money to be paid on account of rents on the Himutangi Block—and thereby hung a tale. That money was really to be paid to Dr Bailer, and committees of this and the Upper Househad frequently reported against the claim. Now, at one time the fate of the Government was doubtful—they were saved by the votes of the Maori members; and while the matter remained at issue. Dr Buller stuck to the Maori members like a Government whip, and was much more effective. The consequence now was that the Government put the vote on the Supplementary Estimates without asking the Native Affairs Committee to vote it. With reference to the Ngaire swamp, that was a matter in which the Government had bought the lease from a private person, who ought to be congratulated on his bargain. With reference to recent purchase on the West Coast of this island, he said the Minister could have saved half the purchase money if he had pleased to conduct the purchase without givingcommission to an agent. This land was bought from a. European, and yet the vote for it appeared in the Native Land Purchase vote. The fact was that they were reverting to the system of prarchase of land by commission which was discontinued by Act some years ago, and of the evils of which so much had been said. Tnat system was then discontinued. Was there a man iu the House who would not object to that . systembeing revived? Yet it was being revived—as he thought, unlawfully. He went into particulars of the terms upon which the Commissioners were engaged, and said that under that system the Government was sure to get bad land, because , the commission agent would be sure to make things as pleasant for the sellers as possible in order to induce further transactions. Speaking generally, he said the Government had. abandoned its policy and broken down in its administration of the matters to which he had alluded. With regard to the loan he thought the amount was too large, and he apprehended there would be no difficulty in reducing, the expenditure. It was not for him to indicate where the reductions should be made, but he thought the Government could contract its expenditure. (Cheers). The NATIVE MINISTER said, ho had never heard a speech with so much distortion, coloring, and misrepresentation in it as the one the hon gentleman had just delivered. With regard to the liabilities the Minister said over a million was left for next year by the Public Works Statement—Ls66,ooo over .the amount of this year’s liabilities. He denied that the Colonial Treasurer had . “ denounced ” antiborrowers —he had criticised them. As to borrowing, the hon gentleman wa3 apparently in accordance with him on that matter, since he was in favor of borrowing only for necessary works ; but the question of what were necessary works was one on which jjmany different opinions were held. With regard to the question of Native lands he was prepared to admit that looked, at in one light they were going against the spirit of the Act, but looked at in another light they were not. The case was this, that the Government wanted the land immediately, in order that the North Island trunk line could be carried on. He denied that Mr Bryce had correctly described the purchases of the Government. The work of purchase was conducted under a system, and by officers thoroughly capable and to be trusted. He had no wish, and the Government had no wish to enter into the work of Native land purchase. It was a distasteful work, but it was a necessary one ; and if ever there was a question forced on the Government it was this of purchasing land along the North Island trunkline. Major Atkinson and other members of the House has expressed the opinion time after time that a certain amount of land should be purchased, and the Government’s dealings in purchasing would bear any scrutiny. With reference to the land on the West Coast of this island alluded to by Mr Bryce, its purchase was recommended by the Commissioner; and as to its value, it was estimated by competent valuers that it had been purchased at a fair price. The purchase of the Ngaire Swamp was perfectly regular. With regard to Dr. } Buller and the Himutangi block, the hon. gentleman was forced to go back, apparently to last session, for matter. Now he would leave it to the House and to the Native members to say whether Dr. Buller had received the money ; why Dr. Buller, he believed, was working rather against than for the Government. A Committee of the Legislative Council had recommended last year that the money be paid, and he had agreed with that recommendation. The vote was put on the Estimates in the ordinary way, and discussed in the House afterwards. Why, he was told there was not a member of the House that was not lobbied on that occasion. But the matter was not smuggled into the House. It was brought in in the ordinary way and discussed. The Minister defended the landpurchasing policy at some length, denying that the Government had used the North Island trunk line to smother land purchases. If the Public Works Statement wa3 to receive no more criticism than the hon gentleman, had given ft, it would be a most extraordinary matter, for the hon gentlemen had not made any impression on the Statement. . The hon gentlemen had never raised his voice against borrowing when he was in office. In conclusion, the Minister said he felt certain that the administration of the Government had not suffered at all by the speech the hon gentleman had delivered. (Cheers.) . Mr ORMOND said he did not question the borrowing policy as shown in the BilL The amount was not excessive, and he was prepared to admit that the policy of borrowing to that extent for railways was a correct one. He pointed out that while the Government proposed to earmark the loans there was L 583,000 remaining open for other purposes. That was all he had to say about the Bill. In reference to the Public Works Statement they had a right to expect at such a time that this would be framed with a view to meeting the probable requirements of the Colony. He considered the Statement a most empty and unstatesmanlike one, altogether failing to meet the requirements of the Colony. It did not appear to have struck the Government that more advantageous public works than those dealt with could have been undertaken. The present Government, when it first went into office, charged their predecessors with frittering away money in unproductive works, but in this Statement money was voted extensively for new works, and not for reproductive works. Therefore the Government had not carried out the policy it professed. Take the Otago Central. An amount was to be spent on it which would not take it to a reproductive point. That was one of the Drincipal works for which money was asked. Then there was the line from Napier to Woodville—a’most the best paying line in the Colony. That line had gone on at a snail pace for some years—in five years it had progressed about eleven miles. Since the Government took office, what was the position of the line? Two years ago he was a supporter of the Govern-

ment, and when he waited on the Minister for Public Works, he found that gentleman prepared to admit all he said in favor of that line. He said that it should be pushed on at once and finished by the end of that year. Before the end of the session, however, he went with Captain Russell to see. the Minister, and urged him to push the line on. The Minister repeated his assurance that the line should be pushed on, and, while they were there, gave instructions to the officer in charge of the department to that effect. He (Mr Ormond) went home, but found nothing was done. Last session no vote was asked for the line, and nothing had been done to it since. The proposal now was to take this line into the Manawatu Gorge, and leave it there at an improductive point. Was that good administration—was it cairying out the policy the Government had professed ? The Government had absolutely failed in their railway policy—failed to make lines that wereproductive, or to join lines at points which would open up settlement. He hoped that in committee on the Bill the House would amend the Bill so that the money should be spent on reproductive works. Then as to the Government road policy. They said when they went into office that they were against expenditure on roads out of borrowed money. But that was not given effect to. If the Government had been true to its programme the roads would probably have been attended to by local districts, but it was impossible, as the country was at present divided, to cast responsibility upon local bodies. The Colony would therefore—unless it was to stand still—have to spend money on opening up roads in large tracts of sparsely settled country. "What was the policy of the Government with regard to railway management? When the Government took office the Public Works Minister told them he had an opinion in favor of non-political boards—that was to be the policy of the Government. But nothing had been heard of it since. This, he said, was another instance of the inability of the Government to deal with these questions of administration in a statesmanlike manner. Referring to public buildings, Mr Ormond said he hoped they should have from the Government before the session was over a statement as to what they proposed to do in regard to education buildings. The Government had trWl to cast this expenditure on to local bodies, but the House had refused to allow that. Tire L2>,000 proposed by the Government for this purpose was, he considered, quite insufficient, and the House must—if not this year, in the future—settle the question of making proper provision for the expenditure in this direction. As to the land purchase*, lie did not blame the Government for taking such measures as were open to them for acquiring land along the trunk line ; but he was informed that the land they were purchasing was not such as would assist the line.. From what he had heard he believed there was a great deal that was unsatisfactory going on in bind purchasing that the evils of the old system were being returned to. He strongly objected to the proposal of the Government to take money out of a loan they said they were earmarking, for land purchases. He did not think the two things should go together, and it seemed to him that this arrangement appeared to indicate that the Government did not expect to do anything of consequence in purchasing land to carry the line on. That afternoon he had heard tlie Minister of Lands say that the Government could not give better terms to nominated emigrants because the House would not agree. Was that the position the Government should take up ? It was the place of the Government to lead the House, surely. He believed betier terms could be offered : and he did not think they could do better than to take advantage now of the opportunity offered to the Colony of getting out here a number—not the miserable driblets of one or two now coming—of the very class we wanted. An opportunity had recently been lost by the Government, who had turned a deaf ear to the proposals of Mr Rees, who, he believed, would have been a thoroughly good agent. He had not been politically in accord with that gentleman in the past; but accredited as he was, and possessed of such abilities, Mr Rees would, ho repeated, have been a thoroughly good agent. He.urged this question on the House as a most important one, for if no more people were brought into the Colony the present population would be unduly burdened. He blamed the Minister of Lands for not attaching importance to this question. Reverting again to the question of administration, the hon member said the cause of the present position was the utterly demoralised condition of the House, for which the Government was responsible. For the Government had not carried out its policy. Where was the local government policy—where the Land Act, they had promised? Where was the reduction in the expenditure which they had said was unnecessary ? . The Government had obliterated party lines ; and there they sat, wearing the Opposition clothes —clothed in the propertytax and in centralism. He thought the House, if it did its duty, would pass a Bill to come before them shortly (the Representation Act), and then endeavor to get the House so constituted that party lines would be defined ; for it was hopeless to expect to get them defined at present. They would come here next session and draw their honorarium —but would they do anything? He concluded by J again expressing condemnation of the adminis- j trative policy of the Government. (Cheers )

Mr SUTTivR said the Government had driven energy off the goldfields by doing wliat the people could have done for themselves. He complained that the Government gave too much assistance to goldfields districts. He deprecated extensive borrowing, and quoted figures to show that the condition of the Colony was such as to prohibit borrowing.

‘Mr DUNCAN said Mr Ormond bad urged the Government to complete the Napier, Woodville, and Otago Central lines, which would cost L 2,000,000. Then, in justice to the Colony, if these two lines were carried on, it would be necessary to extend further lines, so that the hon member s proposals would involve an expenditure of about L 3,000,000.

Mr W. F. BUCKLAND said 'h‘e_ had always been an opponent of the Public Works, He had been taught to oppose it from his eatliest infancy. (Laughter.) Therefore he was not now condemning anything which he had formerly supported. He maintained that the Colony had not profited as it should have done by the expenditure of 1,31,000,000. The indebtedness of the Colony now from all sources he said, was L 50,000,000. Up to the time the Public Works scheme was begun, the Colony’s exports exceeded its imports, but after 1572 the imports were more than the exports. The House had to consider, he said, what they should do for the future. They might, at any time be brought face to face with a difficult position. He was of opinion that the Public Works scheme had failed because the immigratiou part of it had been forsaken. He believed that if at the present time L 2,000,000 was spent in bringing the right class of people out to the Colony, and giving them land when they got here, the Colony would make an enormous stride in advance. He warned hon members that they would sit in this fool’s paradise until they

would be surprised like Belshazzar and his guests, Mr MOSS said it was not those who were called scurrilous by the Treasurer who were attacked from the Treasury benches —that were afraid to face the position, it was those who disregarded past promises and professions who regarded only their own interests. (Hear, hear.) A great deal was said about the proud position New Zealand occupied in the Home market, but be quoted from the Economist of May last to show that our credit was not so high at the Stock Exchange as it was said to be. He had always expressed the keenest detestation of what was known as the public works policy, which he looked upon as rash, presumptuous and unsound, and he was glad to hear hon members taking the same view now. With regard to the question of Native land purchases, he said he did not dispute the necessity for getting land along the trunk line route ; but what he and the other Auckland members said was that the Government was not going the right way about it —were not purchasing lanrt fit for settlement. He would ask how much of the land obtained was suitable for settlemsnt or had been settled ? Referring to borrowing, he said unless some means were taken to remove the C lony’s difficulties they would not be able to pay their interest on loans. He regretted that some people spoke lightly of such a contingency, for he sincerely hoped the day would never come when the Colony would repudiate its engagements. Mr MITCHELSO.V moved the adjournment of the debate till the next day. The PREMIER thought it was early to adjourn the debate (it being then a qnavfcerpast 12). Major ATKINSON pointed out that hon members had to attend committees eaidy next morning, and it was rather hard upon them. Mr MONTGOMERY thought that the debate on an important matter like this might well be adjourned. The motion for adjournment was agreed to. HOSPITALS AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. On clause 1, Mr Macarthur moved that progress be reported. The Premier explained that he did not propose to take any important new clauses. The motion to report progress was lost on the voices. Mr W. E. Buckiand asked the Premier whether he was going to take any notice of Mr Pearson’s motion carried the other night. The Premier : No, lam not. I have said I consider it impracticable and unworkable. Mr Buckiand remarked that that was defying the House. In the course of a discussion on one of the clauses, Major Atkison said he was informed that members of these hodies were in the habit of charging travelling expenses for several meetings they attended hi one day. He was also informed that gentlemen who had free railway passes charged railway fare ; and he suggested that the Premier should introduce a clause prohibiting this.

Various clauses were struck out with a view of inserting others, and eventually progress was rejiorted at 1.35, and the House rose.

WEDNESDAY, JULY 21,

The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS.

Various petitions, &c., were presented. In connection with the petition of Ann Roberts, of Ohinemutu, Sir GEORGE GREY moved that the report be referred back to the Committee to consider whether Mrs Roberts should not be paid expenses in coming to Wellington to prosecute her suit. The PREMIER said this would establish a bad precedent. After some further discussion Sir George Grey’s amendment was carried. QUESTIONS. The DEFENCE MINISTER, in answer to Mr Stewart, said long-service medals would be presented shortly. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to Mr Taylor, said the matter of letting contracts in Canterbury on which the present unemployed could be employed was under the consideration of the Government. Mr DARGAVILLE asked the Premier, Whether he will consider the expediency of providing by legislative enactment during the present session for the application of a portion of the unused surplus of the Kaitangata relief fund towards relieving the distress caused by the recent volcanic eruption ? He was informed, he said, that every charge on the fund had been made, and there was a large surplus, to deal with which legislative enactment would be necessary.

The PREMIER did not see his. way to introduce legislation. He did not think it right, except by private member’s Bill, or by consent of subscribers, to deal with a fund raised for a special purpose. He pointed out that the present law would enable the fund to be applied to other purposes if it was agreed to do so. The TREASURER, in answer to Mr Hatch, said he could not say what number of transactions had taken place under the Mortgages Debentures Act of 1885. The TREASURER, in answer to Mr Macandrew, said it was not the custom of other colonies to frank Hansard outside the country, and it would be conceit for New Zealand, therefore, to frank its Hansard outside the Colony. He was not prepared to propose that Hansard should be sent at the same postage as newspapers. If the hon member chose to go further with the matter, and the House approved, he would, however, have no objection. Mr MACANDREW said he should not take the matter any further ; but he did not see why Hansard could not be posted at the same rate as newspapers. Mr J. G. BUCKLAND asked the Government, Whether they have entered into any neotiations with respect to debentures authorised to be issued by the Kaihu Valley Railway Company owners, under section 25 of the Railways Purchasing Act, 1885; and, if so, with whom ?

The MINISTER said the negotiations had been going on, and the matter was now in the hands of the Crown Law Officers. So soon as those officers reported that the Company had carried out its obligations, he would authorise the Colonial Treasurer to make the purchases.

The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in answer to Mr Guinness said it was not the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill this session to abolish grand juries. Sir GEORGE GREY asked the Minister of Justice, If the Government will allow members of the House to inspect the papers at the public offices containing the names of the several Justices of the Peace of the Colony, tlie dates of their appointments, and the names of the persons upon whose recommendation they were so appointed ? The Premier, he added, had said that hon members could, if they chose, see the papers in connection wph the appointment of Justices of the Peace.

The MINISTER of JUSTICE said he did not lemember the Premier giving such. an assurance. With reference to the question, he could not accede to the request made in it. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the adjournment of the House. Mr MACARTHUR said the Premier did

make the statement, and he (Mr Macarthur) had availed himself of that privilege by seeing papers in connection with an appointment. Now, however, that a certain appointment was involved, the Government refused to adhere to their pledges. Mr BRUCE thought it was the Minister of Justice who made the statement. The PREMIER said he could not remember having made the statement. The Government only objected to private information in connection with appointments being given. Mr BRYCE did not blame the Government for their present position, but he thought they went too far on the former occasion.’

The MINISTER of JUSTICE said Mr Macarthur never had authority from him to see papers. THE CONVERSAZIONE. Mr LA.RNA.CH said the Committee of membersappointed to devisemeans of affording relief to the sufferers by the volcanic eruptions, had come to the conclusion that a conversazione would be the best mode, and he had been requested to ask the permission of the Speaker to hold a conversazione in those buildings on Saturday night week. The SPE AKER said he had considered it advisable to bring the matter before the House. He pointed out that in addition to the loss of the Terraces, it was stated that over a hundred persons had either been burned to death or buried alive by the eruptions, and he had no doubt hon members would unite with those who were attempting to afford assistance to the sufferers by the disaster. Mr LAKE understood that the feeling of the meeting at Government House was against an entertainment. He thought there were modes in which the relief could have been given in a more dignified manner. (Hear, hear ) If non members had subscribed to the list, and co-operated with members of public bodies, the matter would have been better dealt with.

Mr MACANDREW alluded to the_ impropriety of holding such entertainments in those buildings, but the question was not one which he should oopose. Mr J, C. 'BUCKLAND would agree to the motion if the balance now in hand was put at the head of a subscription list. The PREMIER regretted that a discussion had arisen on this matter.

Major ATKINSO N should not oppose . this motion, since it dealt with an exceptional question. Mr DARGAVILLE said the managing Committee of the last ball were, he believed, hi favor of handing the surplus over for the purpose mentioned by Mr Buckiand. Mr TE AO supported the motion. Mr SAMUEL said the circumstances of this case were exceptional, but he disapproved of the buildings being used for purposes for which hon members appeared to think they were fitted.

Mr W. E. BUCKLAND said the hon members who had spoken in favor of the motion had not heard, perhaps, of the scandal in connection with the last bail held in the buildings. Mr O’CONOR said the buildings were not suited for such a purpose. The SPEAKER said the Mayor of Wellington had been communicated with, and that gentleman, with the other members of local bodies, considered the Drillshed would not be as suitable as these buildings. The question was then put and agreed to. STAMP DUTIES. Mr HOLMES asked a question as to whether a statement in a recent return that ' stamp duties in the Wellington Provincial District were twice as large as in any other district, was correct. The PREMIER explained that bankers and private persons were in the habit of purchasing their stamps at Wellington, all of which were included in the Wellington district returns. PUBLIC WORKS DISCUSSION. The discussion on the Loan Bill was resumed. Mr MACARTHUR said he had heard the Colonial Treasurer imperfectly : but he should like to know whether the hon gentleman had not admitted that the Government had forgotten to take liabilities of over a million into consideration in the Financial Statement. (A voice: He said nothing of the sort.) Well, he understood, then, that the Government did take it into account. Referring to the LBOO,OOO claimed by the Government as a surplus that would be available for public works, he said that the Government had never disproved the statements made about that which was,, in fact, a “cooked account.” The North Island trunk line, it appeared, was made a beast of burden for charges in other parts of the Colony. The Government had expended a lot of money in making roads, landing places, etc., along the Wanganui River, ostensibly as part of tlie line. Pie agreed that these works might be justifiable if the Government was pushing the line on as they said in ISS4 they should, when it was to be “completed in five years, at the outside. But, at the present rate of progress—by which the line would not be completed in ten or in twenty years —those works, he contender!, were local works, and should not be charged on the line. He pointed out that there was a curious discrepency in the statemente of two members of the Government as to the amount available for public works, Mr Ballance having said that it would be L 565,030 after paying liabilities, while Mr Richardson made it LBO,OOO less. With regard to the Otago Central, he -said it was unfair to couple this with the Napier-Woodville line, and say the two would cost L 2,000,000, He was in favor of the Otago Central being carried to a paying point; and) he was surprised to hear the Premier, on the previous night, cheer that statement, in the face of what he had formerly said in favor of the line, simply because the statement was made against a formidable opponent —Mr Ormond. (The Premier : Very formidable. Major Atkinson : Unanswerable.) He referred to a speech made by the Premier at Dunedin, in which he said that something would be done for the Otago people notwithstanding Captain Russell’s motion. That seemed to mean that the reduction in the Otago Central would not be so large as. the that was carried by the House. That was the impression it seemed to convey.

Air MENTEATH said the Public "Works policy of the Government had been subjected to a criticism that was certainly hostile. He was of opinion that the Government’s policy, though it was not the policy they had originally enunciated, was that which found favor with the public. The Government had found that the magnificent policy it at first brought in, was not the correct one, and had, very properly, he considered, altered it so as to keep pace with public opinion. The hon member for Napier had. alluded to the absence of parties in the House ; but what sort of Opposition was there before the present Government came into force ? Why, they had had to get a gentleman who had not hitherto occupied an important position to move a noconfidence vote. The question had always keen, Who was to administer the loan? He contended that the proposals of the Government for the year were in the direction of economy. With regard to the question of roads and railways, he pointed out that roads must be made and superintended locally. The Government recognised this when they first

came into office, and made an endeavor to deal with the question by reforming the system of local government ; but they found that conservatism prevented the people from agreeing to a change in this direction. In this direction, he thought, public opinion needed educating. Another change the Government attempted to make was in the direction of giving local bodies an assured finance. There again, however, they were opposed, this time by the rich districts. The Government showed its adaptability in this matter and remodelled its proposals (which were embodied in the Local Bodies Finance and Powers Bill) in a way which gave all to rich districts, and left little or nothing to small districts. But this was an instance of the adaptability of the Government. They found acting on the theory of opportuness that the Government should represent the views of the majority, that the rich colonists were not prepared to assist the poor, and they re-modelled their proposals accordingly. The policy of the Government, he said in conclusion, was that which any other Government would adopt at this time.

Mr J. W. THOMSON said he had always been of opinion that the Government should lead the House, and not be powerless. As to the Government’s policy being that approved of by the Colony, he believed that was because the Colony had been led to expect a very different policy from them. Ministers had been going throughout the length and breadth of the land, and the Treasurer, though he had not proposed a large loan, had inferred as much. At Tuapeka he had spoken of resuming the public works policy. The Treasurer also spoke at Tuapeka of turning the Molyneaux River in order that the gold in the bed of the river might be obtained. That, however, was to be done by private enterprise. A forecast of the Government policy was published some time ago, and the Treasurer had never denied it till yesterday, though he had spoken in various places in the meanwhile. He quoted the remarks of the Treasurer at Auckland, and said the hon gentleman was not justified in sa3»ing what he had said about the probable policy of the Government. The debate was interrupted at 5.30.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Mr J. W. THOMSON, continuing his speech, said there was a portion of the Public Works Statement which the Treasurer got credit for writing, and that part of it which referred to the liabilities. The Minister for Public Works was not in the habit of ingeniously arranging figures—he generally put things in a plain, business-like way. Mr Thomson pointed out that there were discrepancies between the Public Works and Financial Statements, one of which was that the Treasurer told them that this LBOO.OOO would be adequate for miscellaneous works for two years, while the Public Works Statement proposed to assist that amount. He submitted that the Government had given ample cause for the assertion that they intended to borrow extensively. The expenditure proposed for this year was double the sum that was expended in 18S2, and that was too much, considering the Colony’s ability to pay it. The Premier had said at Invercargill that we were expending too much—that we should “hedge off.” Yet now the expenditure was increased to the extent he had stated. With regard to railways, he thought they should spend money only in reproductive works, and in pushing on open lines to points which would be reproductive. He thought the Government should give the House particulars of the lines on which it was proposed to spend money. Regarding the loan, he would have liked to see the Government come down with a proposal to borrow a million at the outside—which, he said, was quite enough. Looking at the circumstances of the country it behoved the House to be very cautious. At the same time, he did not deny that the people were not opposed to the proposal for a million and a half ; and tlie reason, he would repeat, was this—that the people, having expected a large borrowing policy, were astonished at the moderation of the Government, and were almost glad to agree to a million and a half being borrowed. He expressed an opinion, in conclusion, that the Government would have to ask for a loan next year, and said the Government should tell the House what its intentions were in this direction.

Mr W. C. SMITH said the Opposition found themselves fighting an uphill fight because they had been led to believe that the Government would propose a ten or twenty million loan. He doubted the correctness of Mr Ormond’s statement that the Government, two years ago, had promised to finish the Woodville-Napier lino shortly. He blamed that hon member for not pushing on the line when he was Public Works Minister. Mr J. B. WHYTE said the member for Waipawa never got up except to attack Mr Ormond, and he would suggest to that hon gentlemen that the House was getting rather tired of this, and would prefer his views on general questions. With regard to the system of land purchase, Mr Whyte objected to the commission system. As to the trunk line and the exhibition at Auckland in 1890 in celebration of its completion, he thought it was absurd to speak of the -line being completad by 1890, seeing the amount that was voted for it. Reviewing the so-called “ vigorous policy ” of the Government, he was inclined to agree with the Treasurer —though he arrived at it by a different process that many generations would elapse before the colonies under tlie Southern Cross reached the culminating point of their greatness. Mr IVESS said hon members would have to meet their constituents shortly and give an account of their stewardship; and now, therefore was the time to tell the hon member in charge of the Public Works Department that he had not effected those reforms which had been expected of him. He (Mr Ivess) failed to see where tlie large reductions in the tariff had been made which were spoken of by the General Manager in his report. He compared the railway freight charges of this Colony with those of other colonies to show that in New Zealand, where there was a larger population in the interior than New South Wales, and a larger area under crop, the rates were much higher. The time had now come when reductions should be made. Agriculturists in New Zealand had to compete with India and other producing countries, and should have facilities which would enable them to enter the market at no disadvantage. Further, on. the increase of production and the development of the country’s resources to a very great extent depended the welfare of the Colony. Year after year production was increasing, and all that was wanted was that steps should be taken to allow producers to use with advantage the lines of railway which had cost so much. The Atkinson-Whitaker Government had been turned out of office, almost solely because they had refused to lower the railway tariff. When the present Government went in, the people of tCanterbury did expect that something would be done for them—this was a question at elections. But they had been mistaken ; two years had gone by and nothing had been done. He thought it his duty to say this, though he was not renouncing his allegi-

ance to the present Minister for Public Works Two years ago, when in Opposition, alluding to the railway management of the thenGovernment, he said that to travel from_ Chnstchurch to Timaru under the arrangements then existing was “ a curious and agonising torture.’ But the.curious anH agonising torture still existed. Again, as to the Southbridge line, the hon gentleman had pointed out that the arrangements entailed a.los* of time. The same arrangements, however, had existed ever since. (Opposition cheers.) The time had now arrived wnen something should be done to put the railways on a better footing. The Minister should not be subservient to any general manager ; for at present the Minister was second in command. He regretted that the Minister had not carried out his promises to establish boards of management. He considered that some system was wanted by which the wants of different provincial districts should be considered. Be supported the Bill, holding that a million and a half was as little as the Colony could be asked to borrow. Mr WI PERE said Mr Bryce should have given his authority for saying that Dr Buller asked the Native members to support the Government last year. He supported the Government because he was dissatisfied with the policy of former Governments, and with Mr Bryce in particular. Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE argued that it was evident from the Treasurer’s speeches during the recess that the hon gentleman proposed to recall prosperity to the Colony bv a large loan, to the floating of which he expected some opposition from hon members. Even tlie newspapers that supported the Government had' taken up the idea that the Government was going to propose some large policy. Of course there was nodirect explicit language used—the object was to strike the public mind, and at the same time not to commit tlie Treasurer. Soon after the speeches of the Treasurer he (Mr Mackenzie) addressed his constitutents, and he had never addressed them with so much anxiety. For he found that they were so imbued with the idea that prosperity was to be returned, that he had to put it to them in this way, that if L 9,500,090 had produced so much depression in the past, what would another L 10,000.000 cause in the future. He deprecated the manner in which the Treasurer had urged borrowing as a remedy for the depression, and it was a curious fact, he said, that while the Treasurer in his speeches, during the recess, was sinking deeper each time into borrowing, the Premier all the time was urging economy on the people. The further the Treasurer sank, until he got to his lowest depth at Tuapeka, the further the Premier went in the other direction, until he reached his height at Invercargill. No one could ever have believed the speeches were made by members of the same Government. They might rather have imagined that the Treasurer’s speech was the speech of the leader of the Opposition. The Premier was not rising like men who rose

“On stepping stones “ Of their deadselves to higher things.”

He was rather being dragged upstairs by the force of public opinion. The Premier sat there the picture of thrift—economy on a monument. But it was certain that only a few months ago he held the same views as the Treasurer. Under the Treasurer it was evident that a crop of new public works was arising. Anyone who lookpd at the schedules of works could see that tlie Colony was being encircled by a web of liabilities which they could not get rid of as the Government got rid of their liabilities the other day. There were plenty of new railway lines, and one that was not mentioned, but was being surveyed, was the Lawreiice-Roxburgh line. Lines that were necessary were set aside for these new ones. Look at the Otago Central. (Ironical laughter.) He did not think hon members would laugh when they heard the facts of the case. That line had- been in course of construction for eight years ; L 570,800 had been voted for it, and L138,41S spent on it. It was not fair, therefore, that this line should be allowed to drag on at the rate of a mile a year, while other new lines were pushed on. He looked on the Government as a sort of government by debentures ; and he pointed out that one of the district lines was to have a large sum spent on it. The Otago Central ought to be brought to a paying point—he did not care where that point was. . He believed the time would, come when the Colony would have to pay for its carelessness now- The public was being corrupted by the borrowing policy, and was losing all habits of selfreliance. The doctrine of borrowing would have most disastrous effects ; and he hoped that the House would take the matter into its hands next session—that a change would be made in tlie personnel of the Government—and that new ideas would be infused into it. (Cheers.) )

Mr PEACOCK said there could be but little doubt that the speeches of members of the Government during the recess indicated their intention to propose extensive borrowing, and it was only the evidence that public opinion was against this that led to the present modifications. He was of opinion that while the number of those in favor of stopping borrowing for public works was small, the number of those in favor of moderate borrowing for reproductive works was very large, and he thought the number of the latter had led to the moderation of the Government proposals. He did not object to the amount of the loan, but he did object to the manner in which it was to be spent, holding that there were many lines mentioned for expenditure which were not necessary. He did notthink the Government had followed out in its railway.policy the lines the Treasurer laid down in 1881, when he said the works must be carried on with regard to obtaining early returns. At Auckland the Treasurer pointed out that if money was spent in reproductive works the returns from those works wonld assist the revenue. He (Mr Peac ick) mentioned these 'points to show that the Government had not followed up the policy it had laid down. With regard to the North Island trunk line, he approved of the proposal to purcha e land along the route, but could not speak in too strong terms against the money for those purchases being taken from the loan for the line. But tuey knew how this came about. They knew that if the Treasurer had not made a mistake about that LSGO,OGO they should never have heard of the proposal, for the Colonial, Treasurer had to make shifts to remedy the deficiency which he had not at first seen. He thought it would have been better, however, for the Government to curtail the expenditure on ■small lines in the South. He should oppose the proposal to divert part of the loan to the purchase of land. Mr BRUCE said the “cabinet secrets” which the Treasurer had given the House were to this effect —that he had made a mistake in regard to the LBOO.OOO, which he had lost, and which Major Atkinson had discovered for him. Referring to the Government policy during the recess, Mr Bruce said the policy of the Treasurer had been a loan of L 10,000,000, with protection. (Mr Hatch : A good line, too,} W hy, if he had to mention two things to sink the ship of State, those were the two things he should name. The Treasurer went far to denounce people who did not believe in

“borrowing. He (Mr Brace) was not one of those, but he said that those who did hold that opinion were entitled to the credit ef every thinking man in the Colony, for they were ■sincere in their views, and not afraid to proclaim them. He believed the Treasurer as sincere in his wish to benefit the Colony -as he could he. He defended Mr Bryce from the assertions of Mr Ballance, that he had been guilty of misrepresentation and distortion. The Native Minister said he was acquiring land along the Trunk Line, and he would therefore ask the Minister for Public Works why he was not doing his share of the work and pushing on the line. That gentleman had not treated him fairly, but he hoped that in future their relations would be more amicable. Referring to the question of the policy of the Government, Mr _ Bruce ■ said the Government had no policy, he believed; or if they had, it was the policy of he Opposition. He believed a Government should come down with a pronounced policy, and stand or fall by it. He could have made a better defence of the Government than Mr Menteath. He could have pointed to the exceptional circumstances of the matter. He thought that the Government had done right in keeping office, because it was the wish of the country that they should do so. The people did not want a return to the former Government; and he could see nothing but chaos if an alteration was made. He condemned the railway policy of the Colony for .some years past. He thought the Government was entitled to credit for the things they had attempted. Their local government _ scheme was one, he believed, in the right direction, 'but he regretted that they had not taken definite action with regard to school buildings. He should vote for the second reading of the Bill, holding that they must push on their Public Works policy. He was sure.the Government would use the money in the interests •of the Colony—at any rate, that they would use it to the satisfaction of their supporters. (Laughter.) He only pretended to be a very humble member of the House, but he would furnish the Government with a policy, and that policv was similar to the advice that Hercules "gave to the waggoner—to advise the people not to trust too much to the House for assistance, or to a heroic policy, but to attempt to extricate themselves by their own industry and economy. Mr LEVEciTAM said he had never heard more contradiction in such a space thlm there was in the speech just delivered. .The hon member said there were no party lines—yet he was always found voting with one party. He said the Government ought not to have a policy—and then offered them one. With regard to the Government and the Oppositiun, he said the previous Government had never had a policy. Dealing with Mr McKenzie’s speech, he said the judicious expenditure of money was always attended with beneficial effect. Objection had been made that education was being neglected, but was it • not a fact that this Colony spent more proportionally in education than other colonies did ? The hon member . (Mr Mackenzie) showed what he was complaining *. of when he came to mention the Otago Central line. That line, he said, was to be carried on because money had been voted for it. But had not money been voted for other lines also ? The Otago Central was a line which a Royal Commission had reported should never be proceeded with. Captain RUSSELL said there was scarcely any topic on which he could speak in the debate which had not already been touched. The policy of Mr Menteath was evidently that the Government thould wait to see how the cat jumped. He (Captain Russell) thought the schedule of the Bill was badly drawn, and included lines that were not likely to be beneficial to the Colony. He corroborated Mr Ormond with respect to the Government promising to push the Napier-Woodville line on; and with regard to that line he said he certainly never intended when he moved his motion last year for the reduction of the Public Works Estimates that a line paying L 4 19s 6d should be left unfinished. He pointed out the advantages which would arise from that line by the East and West Coasts being connected. The hon gentleman spoke at some length on this question. He contended that there must be also an ample supply of roads, or the railways would be of no use in many cases. He condemned extensive borrowing, and said he was afraid the time would come when the Colony would be unable to. pay its interest. There was ample proof, he said, that the public works policy had broken down. Mr PULTON moved the adjournment of the debate. This was agreed to. The debate was adjourned till Priday, and the House rose at 12.45.