PARLIAMENT.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. THURSDAY, JUNE 3. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PETITIONS. Mr SHEPH tCRD presented a petition from 650 inhabitants of Christchurch, praying for an alteration in the law so as to afford greater protection to girls and young women. PAPERS. The COLONIAL SECRETARY laid on the table several papers presented to both branches of the Legislature. COLONEL BRETT, without notice, moved that a message be transmited to the House of Representatives asking that the Hon Mr Tole may be permitted to give evidence before the Public Petition Committee relative to the reception of Cardinal Moran, The motion was agreed to. Mr BUCKLEY, on the business being called on, said that hon members would no doubt be aware that a vote of want of confidence motion was pending in another place, and therefore, in accordance with the custom of the Council in similar cases, and until the question had been decided he desired to move that the Council do adjourn. The motion was agreed to. .
FRIDAY, JUNE 4. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. CHARITABLE EXTENSION BILE. Mr BUCKLEY, in moving the second reading of the Charitable Extension Bill, briefly explained that the Bill was designed to enable trustees of property devised to charitable purposes to acquire the same in an easy and inexpensive manner. Sir F. WHITAKER would not oppo these motion, but he intended, when the Bill was in committee, to move an amendment whereby, in the case of property being left for comfort of patients of charitable institutions, it should not be diverted to the public revenue or public funds. He should support the motion for the second reading. Mr BRANDON objected to certain clauses of the Bill. Mr HOLMES designated the Bill as being an unjust one. He moved, with a view that hon members might have an opportunity of further studying the provisions of the Bill, that the debate be adjourned to Tuesday ne Dr MENZIES considered that Mr Holmes had gone too far in denouncing the Bill in the manner he had done. While it was desirable that the funds devised under the Bill should be left in the hands of some responsible Government official, he thought it would be as well that the responsibility should not be left in the hands of a political head of any Government department. He should like to see the power vested in a Judge of the Supreme Court. Dr POLLEN objected to the power sought by the Bill being vested in the hands of the Attorney-General. At present the Colony was happy in the possession of a thoroughly capable Crown law officer. But they could scarcely expect to be always so fortunate, and therefore it would be as well if the powers sought to be obtained by the Bill were vested in the Judges of the Supreme Court. The motion for the adjournment of the debate to Tuesday next was agreed to, on the voices.
NATIVE PRESERVE EMPOWERING BILL. Mr BUCKLEY, believing as he did that it was the desire of several hon members that the second reading of the Native Reserve Titles Grant Empowering Bill should be postponed, moved that the motion be discharged and be made an order for Tuesday night. The Council at 3-o'clock adjourned to Tuesday next. TUESDAY, JUNE 8. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PETITIONS. Mr ACKLAND presented a petition from the Christchurch Church of England Synod in favor of the Bible being expounded in State schools. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY laid npon the table several papers. CARDINAL MORAN'S VISIT. Colonel BRETT brought up the report or the Committee relative to petitions presented with respect to the recent visit of Cardinal Moran to the Colony. The Committee reported that a free pass on the Government railway lines had been granted to Cardinal Moran; that the Hinemoa had not met the Cardinal as a Government steamer ; and that the police were present at the reception not as a guard of honor but only to keep order. The Committee had no recommendation to make. The Hon Mr Scotland alone dissented from the report, which was adopted. ' THE BABBIT PEST. The report of the Committee- on the rabbit pest was presented, GREYMOUTH AND HOKITIKA RAILWAY. Mr HART asked the Hon the Colonial Secretary, What was the estimated cost of the Greymouth to Hokitika Railway ? what was the estimated return from the expected traffic thereon ? what length of the line has been completed ? what amount of money has- been outlaid theron ?' and what revenue has been received from the traffic thereon ? Mr BUCKLEY replied that the estimated cost of the line in 1878 was £200,020; There was no traffic on the line at present. Four mile 3 were constructed at the Hokitika end, and one mile at Greymouth. In last month the expenditure had amounted to L 37.777. COUNCILLORS HONORARIUM. Mr WILSON moved, That, in the opinion of this Council, in the present financial state of the-Colony, it would be a reasonable concession by members of the General Assembly that they should forego for the present session onehalf of the honorarium fixed by law, and the members of this Council on their part hereby declare that they are willing to make this concession accordingly. In moving the motion, he desired to say that it was well known that nearly every industry in the Colony was in a languishing condition, and as the financial state of the Colony was in a bad condition, he trusted that hon members would agree to making a slight sacrifice for this session only. He hoped the Council would refrain from putting " the previous question." MrHAKT stated that he had no sympathy with the motion. l)r POLLEN saw no reason for the motion, and he grounded his objection on the fact that by the Colonial Treasurer's Financial Statement the depression stated by the mover of the motion as prevailing, did not exist, and the Treasurer's Statement was borne out by the fact that the Government not only saw no reason to impose additional taxation, but they had even remitted taxation in one direction. Neither if the Council did see fit to make the sacrifice asked of them, would it follow that members in another place would do likewise. Nor if the motion were agreed to did he believe that any saving would accrue to the country, for he believed that if the sacrifice was made, the saving so effected would be swallowed up by some sludge channel on the West Coast. He moved the previous question. Mr SCOTLAND deprecated the motion of Dr Pollen, as it prevented him from speaking to the motion. He did not see why the sacrifice should commence in the Council, for, argument to the contrary, he believed that the Council did as much useful work as the other House, and consequently the sacrifice should not be called for. If a reduction was to be made, it should bezin with the higher paid officers of the Civil Service. Before very long he firmly believed that payment of the members of the House of Commons would be established. To compare the Council with the House of Lords was unfair, inasmuch as the members of the Council were selected from the same walks of life as were those of the members of the House of Representatives. The motion was lost. "That the question be now put " went to a division. Ayes, 8 ; noes, 21. PURPOSES OF LOANS. Mr HOLMES moved, That a return be laid on the table of the Council showing the several purposes to which money raised by loans, from the Ist January, 1854, to the 31st March, 1886, has been applied, specifying the amount expended for such purposes in each provincial district, and, where the expenditure has been for Native, defence, or other general purposes, specifying in which of the islands of the Colony the expenditure has taken place. Mr SHEPHA.RD moved as an amendment, That the returns should show whether the loans were raised by the General or the Provincial Governments. Mr REYNOLDS pointed out how difficult it would be to 3upply information relative to loans raised by the Provincial Governments. The amendment was lost, and the motion, including a verbal amendment proposed by Sir F. Whitaker, was carried. ANNEXATION. Mr BUCKLEY moved that a respectful address be presented to her Majesty, praying that the Kermadec Islands may be annexed to New Zealand. Mr LAHMANN: Why ? Mr BUCKLEY could give any hon member information on the subject. Mr HOLMES would like to hear some further information before the motion was agreed to. So far as he could learn the Islands were barren rocks. Mr MILLER moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr REYNOLDS saw no necessity for delay. The annexation would cost the Colony nothing, and as the Admiralty had expressed the opinion that it would be advisable that the rocks should be annexed it was but right that the motion should be agreed to. He did not object to the debate being adjourned. Messrs SCOTLAND, MANTELL, GRACE and POLLEN ridiculed the project for annexation, and the debate was adjourned to the following day. CHARITABLE TRUSTS EXTENSION BILL. The debate on the second reading of the Charitable Trusts Extension Bill was resumed by Mr HOLMES, who opposed the motion. Eventually the motion was agreed to. NATIVES RESERVES TITLES EMPOWERING BILL. Mr BUCKLEY, in moving the second reading of the Natives Reserves "Titles Empowering Bill, stated that if the motion were agreed to he intended to move that the Bill be referred to the Native Reserves Committee. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the next day.
The Council, at 4.15, adjourned to the following day. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PAPERS. Mr BUCKLEY laid several papers upon the table. THE EECrDIVISTES QUESTION. Sir F. WHITAKER gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he would ask leave to introduce a Bill for the purpose of giving protection to the Colony of New Zealand against French criminals. QUESTIONS. Mr MILLER asked the Colonial Secretary, If the Government will lay on the table a return showing the estimated amount which would be collected under the property tax : (1J Without any exemption ; (2) with an exemption of L2OO ; (3) with an exemption of LIOO " Mr BUCKLEY, in reply, said that t) e Government would have no objection/ to furnishing the returns asked for. Mr WILLIAMS asked the Colonial Secretary if anything has been or is being done to remedy the overcrowding in the Auckland Lunatic Asylum, which was described in the Inspector’s report of 1885-86 as “ becoming positively disgraceful,” from “the fact that 320 patients were occupying buildings intended for 217 only?” , Mr BUCKLEY, replying, said_ that the Government was fully alive to the importance of the- question propounded by the hon member, and had inquired into the matter some time after he had taken office. From inquiries he had made,, he had ascertained that there were many persons at present confined in lunatic asylums in the Colony who should not be there, ! and he had taken steps by which this state of things would be altered very shortly. The Government had obtained the services of an ■ inspector, and it was not apprehended that complaints as to the working of the asylums would occur in the future. THE BIBLE IN STATE SCHOOLS. Mr MENZIES moved. That, in the opinion of this Council, every school committee should ' have power, if it saw fit, to cb.use the Bible to be read in its school daily, without comment, subject to a time-table and a conscience clause. In bringing the matter forward, he remarked that until the question was decided, and decided in favor of the Bible being read in State schools, the matter would inevitably crop up again and again. In the schools under the London School Board, it had been shown conclusively that it was the desire that the Bible should be taught in public schools. The London School Board was the example taken advantage of by the English Provincial School Boards, whose desire it also was that the Bible should be read in State schools. In this Colony he ventured to believe that the majority of the people desired that the Bible should be read in State schools. He failed to see why any objections should be entertained against the Legislature permitting the Bible being read in Wanganui, for example, even supposing Wellington objected. For himself, he was glad to say that he was one of thousands in “ this fair Colony ” who revered the “ good old book,” the observance of which, he believed, tended to exalt a nation. He trusted his motion would be carried. Mr BARNICOAT, while he had the greatest reverence for the Bible, considered that the teaching of the Bible by teachers in State schools would have the effect of creating sectarian views amongst the pupils. He thought it somewhat strange that the Bible, which taught the most sublime tenets, should be such a bone of contention. He opposed the motion. Mr SHRIMSKI desired to ascertain from the mover of the motion which “good old book” spoken of by him as the Bible, and which, he said, “ exalteth a nation ” was to be read. Was the “good old book” the Old Testament, the New Testament, or some other of the many books of the Bibla ? Colonel BRETT.: Or the Koran. Mr SHRIMSKI: Yes, “or the Koran.” He believed that if the Bible was read in the State schools it would raise class against class, and religionist against religionist. Who was to be the arbiter as what book or portion of the Bible was to be read, or who was to impart the instruction. He supposed that the New Testament would be chosen, and if this were so, it must inevitably give offence to the parents of Jewish children who were attending the State schools, and who could not accept the teachings contained in the Bible. Colonel BRETT expressed his intention of voting for the motion. The religion of a nation which did not partake of the reading of the Bible, partook of that of the devil, and any country in which the Bible was not read in the schools was going to perdition. Mr SCOTLAND, while he revered the Bible, objected to the book being read in schools. If the Bible were read by a teacher daily in the schools in a perfunctoiy manner it could do no good, and if a clergyman read the Bible in the school discussion would arise. With the deepest regret he admitted that infidelity was increasing in the Colony to an alarming extent, but he failed to see that the motion would have the effect of remedying the evil. . Mr HOLMES supported the motion, believing as he did that the Bible was the best educational book extent, irrespective of its religious tendencies. Mr BATHGATE’S chief reason for supporting the motion was that the country prescribed the book, which not only grounded the children in religious and moral training, but also strengthened them in the sentiments upon which the greatest orators and lawgivers of ancient as well as of modern days founded their tenets. He supported the motion. Mr LAHMANN objected to the motion, as it would be calculated, if agreed to, to set creed against creed, as also to impair the present system of education. Children should learn Bible truths at their mother’s knee, and also from clergy, and not from lay teachers, The Council divided on the motion, which was carried. Ayes, 20; Noes,. 14.
NEW BILL. The Native Owners Equitable Bill was received from the House of Representatives, and was read a first time, the second reading being made an order for the next day. ANNEXATION OF THE KERMADEC ISLANDS. Mr McLEAN resumed the debate on the question that an address be presented to the Queen, praying that the Kermadeo Islands may be annexed to New Zealand, and in cioing so, he asked the Council to still further adjourn the debate until the action of the French with regard to the New Hebrides was known. Mr REYNOLDS had no objection to a further adjournment, but as it had been asked what good the islands were to the Colony, he might say that the Government had that day received a telegram stating that the islands would carry ten sheep to the acre. The debate was adjourned to Tuesday next.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS EXTENSION BILL. The Council went into commictee on the Charitable Trusts Extension Bill. Several amendments brought down by Mr Brandon having been agreed to, progress was reported, and the Council, at 4.45, adjourned to the next day.
The following is the full text of the resolutions with reference to the New Hebrides ta
"be moved by Sir Frederick Whitaker on Tuesday ia the Legislative Council, of which we give a summary elsewhere : —(1.) That it is of importance to Great Britain, and of importance to the Australasian Colonies, that a satisfactory understanding should be come to between the several States having interest in the Western Pacific as to their respective rights and claims. (2.) That the most pressing question at present requiring settlement is that between Great Britain and France in reference to the New Hebrides. (3.) That the most satisfactory settlement of this question which now appears to be practicable would be a x treaty between Great Britain and France, whereby Great Britain should withdraw all opposition to the acquisition by France of the New Hebrides Islands, on condition —( a.) That no more convicts of any class be sent by France to any of her possessions in the Western Pacific. (6.) That protection, religious freedom, and peaceable possession of their rights and properties be guaranteed to all British subjects residing in or resorting to the New Hebrides, and especially to the Presbyterian mission established there. (c.) That freedom of trade and commerce be guaranteed to British subjects equally with those of France. {&•) That the Island of Rapa be ceded by France to Great Britain,
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, JUNE 3. The House met at 2.30. * ' ' PETITIONS. Yarious petitions were presented. REPORTS. Several reports from Select Committees were presented. QUESTIONS. The PREMIER, in answer to Mr W. F. Buckland, said it was not the intention of the Government to introduce any Bill this session dealing with Road Boards. Mr JOHNSTON asked the Government, If it is true, as suggested by the Bell newspaper, that a condition precedent to the signing by the Government of the San Francisco mail contract, was an undertaking that sugar should not be carried by the mail steamers from San Francisco or Honolulu to New Zealand without the consent of the representative of the New Zealand Sugar Company ? . The PREMIER said there was no truth in any such statement. „ The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to IVIr W. F. Buckland, said it was not true that the Government had purchased one acre five perches of land for railway purposes from a late member of the House, at Little River, Canterbury, for L 1750. Particulars as to the land taken and compensation paid would be laid before the House. The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in answer to a question by Mr W. F. Buckland, who asked whether paid bailiffs of the Resident Magistrate’s Courts were allowed to conduct private business also, said the matter opened up was a large one, and it would be better if the hon gentleman would ask a specific question as to any case that had come under his notice. The MINISTER of LANDS said the Mr Mcllhone recently appointed Conservator of Forests in Auckland was_ appointed as a gentleman possessing special qualifications. He understood that this was not the Mr Mcllhone who was refused an hotel license in Auckland.
The DEFENCE MINISTER, in answer to Mr Beetham, said that if he was provided with particulars as to the proposed Yolunteer Drillshed at Masterton, the Government would consider the question of subsidising it. Mr MOSS asked the Colonial Treasurer, If his attention has been directed to the practice that has obtained for some years past of omitting from the appropriation account the expenditure under the head of permanent appropriations, contrary to section 67 of the Public Revenues Act, 1878, which directs that all expenditure during the year shall be included in the said account ? The PREMIER replied that the practice was according to law. Mr MOSS then gave notice of a question as to whether the opinion of the Attorney-Gene-ral had been given on the matter. DISTRICT RAILWAYS PURCHASING BILL. Mr J. W. THOMSON moved, That a committee be appointed to inquire into and report whether any member of the Legislature negotiated for, or claimed, or received, any commission or other remuneration for promoting the passing of the District Railways Purchasing Act, 1885, or for negotiating the sale or purchase of the debentures issued or to be issued thereunder by the Government; such committee to have power to call for persons and papers; five to form a quorum ; to report in three weeks. The committee to consist of Mr Barron, Mr Bruce, Mr Cadman, Mr Duncan, Mr Fulton, Mr Garrick, Mr McMillan, Mr Ormond, Mr Pearson, and the mover. Major STEWARD seconded the motion, which was carried.
NEW MINISTER. The PREMIER announced that Mr Reynolds, M.L.C., had been sworn in a 3 a member of the Execntive.
PRISONS REPORT. In answer to Mr Conolly, the MINISTER of JUSTICE said the Prisons Report would probably be presented in a day or two. BILL INTRODUCED. The Hakataramea Racecourse Reserve Bill {Major Steward) was read a first time. THE BUDGET DEBATE. The discussion on the motion to go into Supply, and Mr Montgomery’s amendment, “ That in the opinion of this House, the Government should reduce the Estimates by a sum of not less than L 75.000,” was resumed. Hon Mr BRYCE (who was received with cheers) said the Premier and the Colonial Treasurer were very severe in their remarks on those who took a despondent view of the Colony. He (Mr Bryce) was one of those who took that view, for he believed that, though the ultimate success of the Colony was assured, we should have to go through a great deal of trouble first. He held that it was the duty of every member to speak his mind plainly, whatever might be the consequences. He was not going to preach ** peace, peace,” when there was no peace; and the financial position of the Colony now was a very bad one, He did not believe those who took a despondent view were injuring the Colony. On the contrary, it was to them the Colony must look for assistance. He alluded to the Treasurer as a man whose name was everywhere synonymous with an extravagant policy. The Premier was quite right ia taking this as a no-confidence motion. He was quite right also in saying that the Government could not make the reductions. The love of approbation was unduly developed in the Government —they were too fond of popularity-hunting—and they would not face the unpopularity that reductions would bring them. The Premier had accused Mr Montgomery of confusing things, but had himself confused them, especially in regard to Native land matters. Mr Bryce then dealt with the liabilities claimed, and asked where the liabilities were provided for. With reference to the Premier’s statement that defence had been assisted out of loan in 1881. Was that not disingenuousness ? Did not everybody know that at that time there was
-1 no vote out of which the permanent force could be paid. But he (Mr Bryce) had persisted m i his endeavors to get this remedied, until at leneth the Treasurer agreed to charge it on ordinary revenue. The Premier had misled the House because the Government of 1881 was following a necessary practice. In justification to the great borrowing policy, the Premier had asked whether we were not better off now than when he came to the Colo >ny. Was it nothing that there was L 60,000,000 of debt, public and private, hanging to. the Colony ? He was astonished at the attitude of the Premier. He could not disassociate the Works policy froin the name of the Treasurer, who had boasted that he had made so many budgets. As to the Financial Statement, it was pretence throughout. The policy enunciated in it was pretty much on a par with the policy always held by the Treasurer. The Treasurer told them that he was of a despondent nature ; but he fancied that if the lion gentleman himself had not said so no one would have thought it. The hon gentleman was of a most sanguine turn of mind, and his proposals and principles should be accepted with caution. Lately, returning to the Colony, the hon gentleman had said that the Colony would advance by leaps and bounds under his policy. Was that borne out ? The hon gentleman had predicted a sharp rally in the price of staple products. The prospects of a rise now in wool were very small. Moreover, there were other countries coming into competition with this. As regarded tallow, it had fallen to a very low price, and was not likely to rise again. Even in egard to the frozen meat trade, there was no doubt the Argentine Republic’s exportations were gradually approaching New Zealand’s in the market in this and in wheat. How, then, were there to be sharp rallies in prices ? Two things were left to the Treasurer —“ trade with the islands in the Arafura Sea ” and the production of beetroot sugar. (Laughter.) When the Treasurer came back to New Zealand he made it a special complaint. that the lines of railway had been carried on in a fragmentary manner. Now, however, he had changed his ideas, and recommended the same policy. The Treasurer’s policy was the same as that of 1870, with this difference, that then he had been anxious to spend money on reproductive works, and now that had ceased to be a condition. (Cheers.) A glance at the list of his proposed works would show that. The hon gentleman was afraid to turn round now ; he must go on, and the difference between him and those who took the despondent view was that the latter were prepared to turn back and look the position in the face. There was. no fear for the Colony if they did that. This Statement was extravagant to a degree, embodying proposals to expend L 4,000,000 or L 4,500,000. Out of this, it proposed to expend this year L 2,700,000 on a vigorous policy. We were by no means in a position to go on with this expenditure. He did not agree that the L 75.000 could not be taken off the Estimates. The Treasurer had predicted a glorious future, and it had not come ; and now he said the troubles of the Colony were “trifles, light as . air.” Was the indebtedness of the Colony a trifle as light as air; that the country was groaning under a weight of taxation ; that it had a depression ; that it had obtained such a reputation for debt and taxation that people were afraid to come to . the country. (Cheers.) Were these trifles light as air? But it was a question whether they were not trifles compared with the utter demoralisation now prevailing. The truth was, we had people in power occasionally who had no sympathies with the people. The Statement said that “the working classes were the means for the dispersion of wealth.” Did that mean that money was to be lent to the working classes in order that they might be ground down by usurers in the effort to repay it ? The money-lending fraternity had too much power in the Colony. (Heats hear.) Alluding to the purchase of Native lands from the Natives, Mr Bryce cautioned the .Minister that there was great danger of acquiring bad land and leaving the good land with the Natives. He, when he was travelling in the North some years ago, was able to tell which was Government land and which was Native land for that reason. He alluded to a block of land acquired by the \ Government, which, he said, had enabled, the Government to say that they had obtained large quantities of land in the vicinity of the trunk line. . No part of that land, with very trifling exceptions, would fall into the trunk line, and it was for the most part unsuitable for settlement. Returning to the policy of the country, Mr Bryce said our financial position, as regarded borrowing, was different to what it was it 1870, for then prices were high, and not so much money was going out for interest. He took exception to what was called a vigorous prosecution of works, as involving greater expenditure. We could not go on with this expenditure of borrowed money, We must stop somewhere ; and, in his opinion, the best way was, as the Premier put it, to “ hedge off ” borrowing. He could not vote for a loan of L 1,500,000. It ought not to be more than L 1,000,000, and he thought L 500,000 was enough now. The bulk of the works proposed were not urgent works. (The PREMIER : Name.) Mr Bryce said he was not going to name any particular works in order that he should be opposed by interested members. hear.) It was the Government’s place to make these statements. He would say candidly that he did not know exactly where the reductions were to be made, but he believed before many years Governments would have to adopt a course of retrenchment. He should like to see the Premier say then that he could make the reductions. With regard to the sinking fund payments acquired by the Treasurer, he said it was evident that they were not revenue, and the Treasurer, if he had been anxious to reduce the deficiency would have applied them to that purpose. (Hear, hear.) He believed the Colony was approaching a period when a system of economy so stringent that such an amendment as this would sink to insignificance would be adopted. He did not believe the people were ripe for such stringent economy now, but that they would, at the same time, joyfully receive such a proposal as that of Mr Montgomery. In conclusion, Mr Bryce said he had finished, and he had no peroration to make. At any rate he had said what he thought. He thought it right that what he thought should appear in : Hansard, because there were many in the Colony who held the same opinions as he did. (Cheers.) The MINISTER for LANDS said the hon member and Major Atkinson never showed that there was necessity for reduction. The hon member’s (Mr Bryce) argument was that there was no prospect of revival in the prices of staple products. What, then, was his remedy for the future ? The hon member gave the Government credit for a love of approbation. Well, the love of approbation was a thing that induced men to noble efforts. (Mr Bryce interjected that he had said “ unduly ” developed.) He pointed out that Mr Bryce was for many years a most consistent supporter of the Colonial Treasurer, whom he now alluded to as “ one whose name was synonymous with extravagance. ” With resepect to land purchased, the Minister denied Mr Bryce’s statement, and said one of the blocks alluded to had forty miles of frontage
to the railway line, and that land had been bought by the Government for less than what it was worth. With regard to the question of liabilities, Major Atkinson had said that L 5,000,000 would be required to give effect to the Financial Statement for two years. The hon gentleman was altogether abroad. Anybody who understood the proceedings of the House knew that liabilities went forward into expenditure. The L 356.000 for railways, tor instance, would be chargeable on next year. The liabilities on the LSOO.OOO were not liabilities that wanted to be paid at once. If the Government asked for no more expenditure in two years than L 400.000 they would have fulfilled the conditions of the Statement. (Cheers.) The liabilities could stand over for one, two, or three years. Mr Brvce had strangely misunderstood the question of charging cost of field force. The hon gentleman said the Government was going hack to the principle his Government abolished. The Minister pointed out that the force was engaged in road and other works. As to the Colony being inaworse position thaninlS7o, hethought it was in a much better position. The working classes were in a better position, and the pro-
portion of debt was not greater now than then. It was not as great. The hon gentlemen must not measure prosperity by the debt, but by the extension of comfort enjoyed by the working classes. That, he said, should be the standard. The hon gentleman was wrong in his statements as to the staple products. Wheat this year was going up—it was at a paying price. The hon gentleman thought there could be no prosperity without the drastic measures which he had, but which he would not give to the House. (Cheers.) As to public works, the hon member did not show his usual courage. Why did he not come forward boldly and say which works were reproductive and which were not. Immigration had not been affected by our indebtedness—they could have had 100,000 emigrants a year if
they wanted them. The hon member had entirely missed the meaning of the words of the Treasurer, that the working classes were the means for dispersion of wealth. As to usury, the policy of the Government had been to do away with loans. If there was one thing their policy had done it was that it had cheapened money. (Cheers.) Usury would depend on the amount of money for investment. If money was scarce, usury would be prevalent. It was not desirable to hedge off borrowing too much when important public works were wanted. The importance of the works should be considered in such a question. The hon member for Akaroa (Mr Montgomery) had gone on the auction system. The Government had offered reductions up to L 40.000,
and the hon member wanted them to go to L 75.000. The question of putting the people on the land was, he believed, a most important question, and he believed that in future it would be the duty of the Minister of Lands to show, not what land was open for settlement, but how many people had been placed on the land. (Cheers.) With regard to the subsidies for local bodies, the Minister said the question was, whether the Government had kept them back so as to swell. the surplus. This was an extraordinary liability, .and the Government had not been able to pay it. The hon member for Akaroa had safd the policy of the Government was “borrow, borrow, borrowbut no hon member was more able at getting a point worked for his district than the hon member. The Government, Mr Ballance contended, would have the right to an appeal to the country on their policy. Here, not only the policy, but the personnel of the Government was questioned. They were not afraid of the hon member’s motion, either here or before their constituents. Reference had been made to the comments of newpapers on New Zealand, and, after censuring the hon gentleman who quoted these statements, he. said those in the London Standard were written by an absentee politician. If the old politicians of this country knew the way in which New Zealand was treated now, they could not rest. No combination, even with Mr Montgomery at the head, could make these reductions. The hon member for Akaroa knew that this was a no-confidence motion ; but who was in league with him? Not the hon member for Egmont, although that hon gentleman, with his usual keen scent, had at once taken it up. And if the motion succeeded, what was the combination that was to succeed the Government ? He did not believe that the hon member had a majority in this matter, however. (Cheers.) Mr MAC ARTHUR, the next speaker, had the floor when the usual adjournment was taken at 5.30.
EVENING SITTING.
The House resumed at 7.30. Mr MACARI'HUR alluded to the differences of opinion apparently held by the Premier and the Treasurer. With respect to the sinking fund payments, he contended that the Treasurer had no right to dealt with it as he had. Alluding to the liabilities, he said it was evident that the members of the Government had not consulted about the matter. He remarked that it was a pity that hon members left the discussion of these financial matters to one or two gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) He denied that there was any real saving. He could not ascribe the statement that there was to ignorance—then what was it? He would leave that subject and go or So the next. With regard to local bodies, he had little but praise to give to the proposals of the Government, although he disapproved of subsidies being given. Reverting again to the fiscal policy, there were several surprises, he said, in the Statement, One was that the Statement was practically a Freetrade one, al- ( though it had always been claimed that the Government favored Protection. Why did the Government not bring down the policy they believed in? No; they had too.severe, a lesson last session. As to the Civil Service Reform Bill, if the Government was anxious to make this reform, why did they not give notice of the Bill on the first day of the session ? It was not till there were rumours in ' the lobbies of a call for retrenchment that it was introduced. He could not see where the bad taste complained of in quoting from the remarks of Australian papers on New Zealand came in. In conclusion, he hoped that, whether the amendment was carried or not, it would be a lesson to the Government. If it was carried, the Government could carry it out —there was no need for them to resign. Dr NEWMAN said he was astonished when, the other evening, the Premier said he would take this as a no-confidence motion, at the boldness that was so new. In the lobbies, however, he heard that the confidence of the Government was due to the fact that “they had counted nosea and had a majority.” The whole conduct of Ministers bore that out. Dealing with the Budget, Dr Newman expressed a belief that the Treasurer had intended to appeal to the country over the heads of his colleagues, but was prevented from doing so. He was confident that the Government could make the reduction suggested in what might be called the Civil Service improper. In Land Boards, for instance, the hon member for Tuapeka, a member of a Land Board, was drawing Ll2 a month for his services. There were sittings of these Boards which cost L4O each, and there were gentlemen who got free
railway passes and then charged travelling expenses. • Why, one gentleman could belong to five or six different local Boards, and-i.charge expenses to each, though several Boards met on one day. He considered that absentee i owners should be taxed, and Native He disapproved of placing charges to loan. There were many ways of economy. There was the District Court system—that was extravagant—and the system of voting for Exhibitions ought to be reduced. The Premier had told his constituents when he was speaking on Captain Russell’s amendment that the Otago-Central was all right, “and he need not tell them why the contracts had been let so early.” What did that mean. Dr Newman went on to express his disappointment at the conduct of the Colonial Treasurer. The Treasurer, when he came to the Colony, promised to give cheaper and better education, abolition of the property tax, bonuses on beetroot sugar, and many other blessings. But all his golden visions had come to nothing. The system of rewarding supporters at Home by. giving them orders and titles was cheapness itself compared with a system of giving political railways and public works. He regretted for many reasons that the amendment had been moved. j The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said there were several points he wished to answer. It had been said that there was no saving in railways during the past year. He proposed to show that savings had been effected. Ninety miles of new railway had been constructed during the year ;.the working expenses were LSOOO less than in previous years. The revenue had decreased L3OOO, but the net revenue had increased L2OOO ; so that during the year a profit had been made. One hundred and thirty thousand more passengers had been carried this year, and 78,000 tons [ more of goods. Redactions had been made on rates for carriage of local goods, which represented an amount equal to L 50.000. The outstanding accounts were L 23,000 less than in the previous year. When he made his Statement, it would be seen that although 90 miles more were worked, reductions had been made equal toLBO,OOO or LOO, 000 for the year. Yet it had been said over and over again that no reduction had been made in any department. It had been stated that certain con-
tracts had been let to Maoris at high prices, no tenders having been invited. The fact was, that this work was keenly competed for by Maoris, and the work done by them was done exceedingly well, and at ordinary rates. Irrespective of the question of policy of getting Maoris to do such work, it was important that this work should be done. It had been his endeavor to decentralise work as much as possible, and he ridiculed Dr Newman’s suggestion as to Land Boards—which, the Minister appeared to argue, tended to centralisation. One hon member had complained that railways were going on in a more fragmentary manner than previously. He could not agree with that, although there were one or two lines, the reasons for which the Treasurer had given. With respect to liabilities, he found that in March, 1884, the liabilities were L 1,250,800. According to Major Atkinson’s argument, then, the expenditure that year should have been L 2,282,000. Yet the hon gentleman himself, in a motion he made, set the expenditure down at a million. Major ATKINSON asked whether the Minister would say whether he wa3 able to put the whole L 356,000 of his liabilities to new works ? .... The MINISTER said yes, practically the whole would go to new railways. There were a few small items, however, to be excepted. The whole of the liabilities would go to new votes. Major ATKINSON asked whether the hon gentleman could tell them anything about roads. The liabilities exceeded the vote. The MINISTER said there were many lia-
bilities that would be explained presently. Mr J. B. WHYTE expressed a hope that if he survived the dissolution he should be able to support the Government in five out of six of their measures ; for it was immaterial to him who sat on the Government benches so long as the affairs of the Colony were administered with an average amount of sense and more than an average amount of honesty. He pointed out that many of the objectionable original proposals of the Government had been left alone now—such as borrowing, protection tariff, &c. He was glad to notice that an Exhibition would be held in Auckland in 1890. Some of them would be there then, no doubt, and if the Government still showed the adhesiveness which they had developed, no doubt they would be there too. He expressed a hope, in conclusion, that a virtue which would be impressed on the Government before long was “ the virtue of resignation.” Mr O’CONOR said he must address his constituents as other members had done. He contended that very few members had addressed themselves to the question before the House, and he deprecated the allusions that hon members had received railways in return for political purposes. . The Government, he thought, desired to do its best for the Colony, and he supported them on that ground.. Mr BRUOE said it was at last admitted by the Government that there was a depression in the Colony. The antidote to that depression was a borrowing and spending policy, which he did not believe would be successful. He did not blame any Government for a depression, but blamed the present Government for proving the existence of one. He did not take such a gloomy view of the future as Mr Bryce did, and he was in favor of a moderate borrowing policy. They could not suddenly stop borrowing, either. He complained that the Government had treated some hon members unfairly in connection with Captain Russell’s
motion by stopping altogether works the votes for which were not altogether struck out. He contended that the borrowing policy had had a bad effect on immigration. He would not say anything about finance because he did not understand finance, so called, and he had come to the conclusion that finance and humbug were synonymous terms. With reference to the retrenchment, he said whenever the Colony was in an economical mood there was a cry against the Civil Service ; and he thought that it was a most unjust thing. He considered that the best thanks of the country were due to the Premier for his Civil Service Reform Bill. His remarks were not dictated by any feeling of hostility towards the Government. He had been long enough in the House to see that no party had a monopoly of virtue, and he believed that the Government had as great a desire to promote the good of the country as any other. Mr MENTEATH contended that the difference betweeu parties in the House was really only one of degree. He took exception to the form in which the motion had been made. The hon gentleman for Akaroa had placed the House in a very peculiar position, because hon members who were in favor of retrenchment had to vote against it, in order not to vote against the Government. That, too, in the face of an offer by the Premier to give reductions in committee. (Hon Members : No !) The Premier had also offered to reduce the Civil Service by L 30.000 or L 40,000. The PREMIER explained that he had said the Government could make reductions to the extent of L 30.000 or L 40.000 he did not say by the Bill alone. Mr MENTEATH, continuing, said this was
a most inopportune time to make redactions and stop works. The Opposition, he said, were rushing at the Government, because theywere not g'-’ng to'spend as much as they appeared on the Statement to intend to. Taking up the surplus Mr Menteath said they were going to turn out a Government—(Opposition cheers and laughter)—well, they were asked to turn out a Government, because that Government had not a surplus. Was it not better to have things balanced than to have a deficiency such as the last Government had? And if the motion was carried, would the hon member for Akaroa sit on the Treasury benches by himself ? Would he not have to call in Mr Pyke, Mr Hislop, Major Atkinson, Sir George Grey, or others. He asked whether the affairs of the Colony were not safer in the hands of the present Government? If the Government had not greeted them with a bona fide surplus, they had not greeted them with a bona fide deficiency. If the Government had taken back its measures, so had other Governments ; and there was six of one and half a dozen of the other. This was an inopportune time for a political crisis. There was a time when he did not give political allegiance to the J Premier ; but he was happy to say now that the Premier had come round to his views, and so long as the lion gentleman gave utterance to such sentiments as those he made at Invercargill he should support him- (Cheers.) Mr ROSS was in favor of retrenchment, but t was in a difficulty how to vote. He was not opposed to borrowing, but to. such borrowing as would not pay interest on'cost of construction. He had made up his mind never to support a no-confidence motion made by a private member, and therefore he should give a vote on this occasion, which some people might be f inclined to challenge. Mr LEVESTAJVI combatted the statements made by Mr Bruce, and of Major Atkinson. He pointed out that Major Atkinson, who said that to bring in the Civil Service Bill was trifling with the House, had himself proposed to bring in a Bill with the same title. As to defence, the House refused votes to the Government, who therefore had to take it out of loan. In charitable aid, the Government had made very large reductions, and should have credit for it. He claimed credit for the Government, also, because the members of it had spared no pains to make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the wants of the country. The SPEAKER (at 11.30) put the question. Major Atkinson rose in his seat just a momenttoo late to speak. THE DIVISION—MAJORITY OP SIXTEEN FOR. THE GOVERNMENT. Question put, That the words “Mr Speaker do now leave the chair, in order that the House-
may resolve itself into Committee of Supply,” stand part of the question. Ayes, 44 —Messrs Alhvright, Ballance,, Bevan, Bradshaw, Brown, Cadman, Cowan, Dargaville, Duncan, Fraser, Gore, Grace, Guinness, Hakuene, - Hatch, Holmes, Hursthouse, Ivess, Lance, Larnach, Levestam (teller), J. McKenzie, McMillan, Menteath,. Moat, O’Callaghan, Pere, Pratt, Reese, Reid,. E. Richardson, Ross, Samuel, Seddon, Steward,. Stewart, Stout, Taylor, Te Ao, T. Thompson,, Tole, Turnbull (teller), Yogel, and Walker. Noes, 28 —Messrs Atkinson, Barron (teller), Beetham, Bruce, Buchanan, J. O. Buckland, W. F. Buckland, Conolly, Dodson, Fergus, Fulton, H. Hirst, Hislop, Hobbs, Lake, Lock, Macarthur (teller), M. J. S. Mackenzie, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Moss, Ormond, G. F. Richardson, Rolleston, Russell, J. W. Thomson, Trimble, and Wilson, Pairs. —For ; Messrs Colter, Joyce, Fitzherbert, Ross, Garrick, Macandrew, Pearson, Harper, Smith, O’Conor ; against: Messrs Hurst, Peacock, Johnston, Fisher, Wakefield, Grey, Sutter, Bryce, J. B. Whyte, Newman. Majority for the motion to go into Supply—--16.
COMMITTEE of supply. The House went into Committee. On the first motion being put, Major ATKINSON rose to ask the Government a question. The COLO NI AL TRE ASURER said he did not propose to go on with the Estimates that night, and he moved that progress be reported. This was carried, and progress was reported. Major ATKINSON asked how the Government proposed to proceed with the Estimates now ? He understood that the Premier had given a pledge to reduce the Estimates by L 30.030 or L 40,000. |The P SEMIER said he hoped the hon gentleman would wait; the Government would make any reductions that could be made in the Estimates. He had not promised to reduce the Estimates to the extent mentioned, in supply. What he said was that if the Civil Service Reform Bill was passed, L 30,000 or L 40.000 would be saved—and he still kept to that pledge. (Cheers.) Major ATKINSON understood, then, that the Government proposed to ask for Supply very much as the Estimates were, unless they saw any item on which they could recommend a reduction, or a saving could be made after the votes were taken.
The PREMIER said mainly that would be so. The Government might propose some reductions in Supply, but mainly the Estimates would be voted in full. The Government hoped to save L 30,000 or L 40.000 this year. The House rose at 11.40.
FRIDAY, JUNE 4. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS AND PAPERS. Various petitions and papers were presented. REPORTS. Reports of Select Committees were presented. MONDAY SITTINGS. The PREMIER gave notice to move on Tuesday that in future the House sit on Monday evenings. QUESTIONS. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND asked the Native Minister, (1) Whether the Dr Duller mentioned in the Premier’s memorandum annexed to the Owhaoko and Kaimanawa Native Lands Bill is the same Dr Buffer whose services were secured last session as a commissioner for the London Colonial Exhibition ? (2) Whether the thousand pounds, or any portion of it, authorised to be paid last session to certain Natives under the heading “ Himutangi rental ” was handed over to Dr Buffer on the strength of some old Native orders which he produced ? He had thought, he said, that this Dr Buffer was almost an angel, but subsequent occurrences appeared to show that his angelic principles were fading away. The MINISTER, in reply, said he could not discuss in the House “the angelic principles ”of Dr Buffer. It did not require more than an average amount of intelligence to ascertain the identity of Dr Buffer. There was an implication in the question that Dr Buffer was a paid Commissioner, or received remuneration. He was appointed, with a great many others, purely as an honorary Commissioner, without any remuneration whatever, either for travelling expenses or otherwise. He was appointed because he was in a position to the Exhibition to which he was taking a number of valuable exhibits. In addition he had had very large experience in colonial affairs. With respect to the LIOOO alluded to, it was paid on a vote of the House of last session, and was put on the Estimates after a
'long and careful inquiry by the Native Affairs 'Committee, who recommended that it be paid. It was also fully discussed in the House. The money was paid in the presence of the Natives of the district. ■ Mr BRYCE asked whether the matter had not been before the Native Affairs Committee in previous sessions, and the payment was not recommended. The MINISTER believed that was so, but it did not alter the fact, that the Committee recommended it last session. The PREMIER, in answer to Mr Peacock, said he had received a resolution passed by the Auckland City Council, urging the desirability of having destitute children maintained under local supervision at public expense. He advised the Auckland Council to establish an ° r Th a e n MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to Mr Smith, said the plans for the Manawatu Gorge Line were in a forward state, and tenders would be called in a few days ; but he reminded the hon member there was a feeling against the construction of new works. The MINISTER of JUSTICE, in answer to Mr Rolleston, said he was not able to say then whether amendment of the bankruptcy law would be introduced this session. Ihe matter was under consideration. Mr MOSS asked the Government, If they will obtain the opinion of the AttorneyGeneral, or other proper, legal authority, as to whether the appropriation account laid before this House is in accordance with the requirements of section 67 of the [Public Revenues Act, 1878 ; and whether the expenditure under “ permament appropriations should not be included ? . , The ATTORNEY-GENERAL promised to look into the matter. He expressed an opinion, however, that the hon member was wrong.
MOTIONS. Mr SUTTER moved, That all papers in connection with the retiring allowance paid Ur Hislop for services to the Provincial Government of Otago and the General Government of New Zealand, as shown by voucher, amounting to the sum of. Ll3lO 7s 6d, belaid before this House ? Carried. Mr McMILLAN moved, For a return of all the money granted and expended during the financial year ending 31st March, 1886, on roads and bridges in each county, to include grants under the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, special votes of Parliament, votes for public works roads, roads to open up lands before sale, and roads on .goldfields; also the rates collected and subsidies paid m each county under the Local Bodies I inanM and Powers Act, in continuation of Return U. 8, ISBS. Carried. Mr LUCKE moved, That there be laid before this House all documents and correspondence referred to in the memorandum attached to the Owhaoko and Kaimanawa Lands Bill. Carried. , „ , , Mr BEETHAM moved for a return, showing the amount of expenditure on that portion ofthe Masterton-Woodville line known as O’Malley and Pepperill’s contract, and the amount of the original contract of Messrs o’MaHey and Fepperill; also .the expenditure on the Waipoua Bridge.- Carried. . Mr MOSS moved for a return showing the amount expended under the vote, roads to open up lands before sale, for each year respectively to the 31st March, 1886, and the acreage sold and money received from lands so opened ; and for a return showing the acreage of land sold and the amount received to credit of the expenditure of L 1,026,808 16s 9d, for Native land purchases to the 31st March, 1886. Carried.
PACIFIC ISLANDS COMMITTEE. Sir GEORGE GREY wished to move his motion to the effect that the House concur m the report of the Pacific Islands Committee. The motion, being unopposed, could not be put on a Government day. Major ATKINSON askecl whether the Government could fix a day for the consideration of this important matter. c . The PREMIER said there was no urgent need to take the matter into consideration. He was getting important despatches from Earl Granville printed, and would lay them before the House. The Government. would not stand in the way of the matter being Discussed. It was usual for the chairman ot a committee to move the adoption of a report, but the hon member did not appear to consult the Government about anything. . Sir GEORGE GREY said the Chairman of the Committee asked leave to make the motion. He hoped the Premier would name a day, because he was every day receiving telegrams on the matter. The PREMIER advised.the hon gentleman not to rely too much on his telegrams, which had already been shown to be wrong. He did not say the hon member was to blame, but he (the [Premier) under stood that the telegram gjj. GJ-eorge Grey now had was also incorrect. Sir GEORGE GREY did not admit that the telegrams were inaccurate. He thought the Government did not treat the statesmen of other colonies fairly. For instance, in the papers laid on the table something was said about the Premier of Victoria. It was not right for one Premier to lecture another. ° GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION.
Mr ORMOND asked whether he could not make his motion for a Committee to inquire into and report upon land purchases made by the Government Insurance Association, and on the working of the institution. He understood there was no objection. The PREMIER said the hon member should not attempt to force his motion, because other unopposed motions were taken. He hoped the hon member would wait until Wednesday. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion to go into Supply Major ATKINSON asked what the Government intended to do now ? The TREASURER said he proposed to ■take the Post Office Department estimates that day He thought hon members would agree that they should go into the Estimates from day t0 Major ATKINSON said he was not going to oppose the motion at all. The hon members who usually worked with'him, after the vote. of the previous day, had come to the conclusion that the whole responsibility of the matter now rested with the Government. I hey would not offer any factious opposition, nor would they attempt to make reductions in the Estimates, as they should have done if the Government had accepted the motion as the Opposition thought they should. —of the. hon member for Akaroa. For their experience taught them that it was impossible for anybody outside the Government attempting to make reductions. . The House then went into Committee or Supply on the Estimates. Class Y. Postmaster General and Commissioner of Telegraphs. General Post Office, L 7710. Agreed to. Chief offices and suboffices, L 123,353. Mr Hatch suggested thit some system of classification should be adopted. The Treasurer said he would consider the matter during the recess. He was favorable to the system. Mr G. F. Richardson said the total increase on this vote was L 4611. He asked whether the Treasurer could not make reductions in it. The Treasurer replied that the only increase, of salaries was L 110 0; the rest was new offices, new officers, and extension of the business.
Mr Duncan moved to reduce the vote by LllOO. Hon Mr Bryce asked the Treasurer whether he could make any reduction at all in ■the vote ? The Treasurer replied that he was every day receiving applications for new offices, &e. The Government had granted no new offices that would not be reproductive, and no telephones were granted unless they paid a good percentage. He thought reduced expenditure would mean reduced r*venue. The motion for reduction was lost, and the vote agreed to. . Maintenance, repairs, and miscellaneous, L 40,246. Agreed to. Telegraph and cable subsidies, Ij3do. Agreed Conveyance of mails by sea, L 72,578. In answer to Mr Turnbull, the Treasurer said the total amount naid to the Direct Service last year was about L 20.000, the bonuses being about L7OOO or LBOOO. Mr Hatch expressed a hops that as the Direct Service had been such a success fche House would have one service and one service only. In answer to Mr Beetliam, the Treasurer said no direct offer was made by Canada in connection with the service via the Canadian trans-continental route. The only advance made was that Canada offered to negotiate. It was most satisfactory, he added, to. find that New South Wales was working with us m the San Francisco service, and that the. United States Government had seen the advisability of assisting it. Mr Barron took occasion to remark that the Government had estimated the total cost of the servic-s at L13..000. lhe Treasurer replied that the more it cost the better it was for the Colony. Vote agreed. Conveyance of inland mails, [L25,180. Agreed of mails by railways, LIOOO. Agreed fc °’Progress was then reported, and leave obtained to sit again. NATIVE EQUITABLE OWNERS BILL. After a short debate, this Bill was committed, and agreed to with amendments. It was reported later on. ofl The usual adjournment was taken at o.du.
EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 8.30. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. A large number of clauses were agreed to with very few amendments. A number of clauses were postponed, and progress was reported at 11.25. COAL MINES BILL. The MINISTER of MINES moved the second reading of this Bill. The Bill, he said, placed the coal miningindustry under a separate enactment, which, it was thought, would be beneficial. Provision was made in regard to certificates to underground . managers, who were required to pass examinations, exempting such as had been engaged as managers for twelve months before the passing of the Act. The Bill, in fact, was a technical measure. Mr SEDDON said the Bill was absolutely necessary, but a feature of it he disagreed with was that as to certificated managers—it did not provide for present managers holding certificates. Managers now in work might not be competent. He thought an omission was made in not providing that engineers who had charge of winding gear should he certificated. He suggested that the Bill should be referred to the Mines Committee. Mr CONOLLY had no doubt, the Bill was one that was required, and which had been carefully considered. Some parts of the Bui, however, he did not approve of, and one was the appointment of women and children. In committee he should try to get this eliminated. The motion was then agreed to,. and the measure referred to the IVTines Committee. GOLD EXPORT DUTY ABOLITION BILL. On a motion to postpone this and other Mr SEDDON moved as an amendment that the second reading of the Bill be taken then. He pointed out. that a number of miners were leaving the Colony, and ic important that steps' should be taken to get the Bill passed at OD The PREMIER promised that the Bill would be brought on on Tuesday, and Mr Seddon withdrew his objection.
COUNTIES BILL. The PREMIER moved the second reading of“ this, whicn, he said, was mainly a consolidating measure. He did .not anticipate a discussion on the second reading. . ' Sir GEORGE GREY objected to tne second reading being taken in this formal way.. He objected that the Bill maintained too high, a franchise. He considered that County Chairmen should be elected by the people; that such county should be a land district, and that the Council should be the Land Board. He proposed to move amendments to that ertecr. He moved that the second reading be adjourned till Tuesday next. The PREMIER said he was sorry to see the hon member opposing the second reading of a Consolidating Bill, and such a course would not do the hon member’s own Bills any good. He (the Premier) was also in favor of amending the franchise, and of having the chairman elected by the people, Mr SEDDON said there were several important provisions in the Bill. In one case the Governor delegated certain powers to the County Chairman. What he wanted was that the whole question of local government should be dealt with in connection with this Bill. The PREMIER said the Bill could not be committed till Friday. . . ~ Mr FULTON thoueht the Premier might well consent to the adjournment, more especially as many hon members who were interested in the Bill were absent, on the understanding that the Bill would not come on that W Mr HURSTHOUSE considered the House should not be influenced by the absence of hon members. A discussion could take place on the committal of the Bill. . Mr LAICS pointed out that last session the Government introduced a Land Transfer Bill, which was said to be a consolidating Bill, but which contained a great many innovations; and there were many new provisions in this Bill. Besides, the Premier had given notice to move a motion which would prevent a debate on the committal of the Bill. The PREMIER said he was willing to arrange that a debate could be taLcen on the motion for committal. The second reading was then put and agreed to. The House rose at 11.55.
TUESDAY, JUNE 8. The House met at 2.30. PETITIONS. Various petitions were presented. Among them was one from Mr W . 1. L. Travers, praying for leave to introduce the Wellington and Manawatu Railway Validation Bill. The report of the Examiner of Bills on the matter was to the effect.that the Standing Order had not been complied with. Referred to the Joint Committee on Standing Orders. , .... . Mr BEETHAM presented a petition from G. W. Woodroofe and 44 others, praying that amendment might be made in the law so as to limit the area of boroughs and limit the expenditure to wards. Dr NEWMAN presented a petition from
William Duthie, praying for a grant of land on account of military services. Mr JOHNSTON presented a petition from the Petone and Hutt Gas Company, praying for leave to bring in the Hutt and Petone Gas Company’s Act, 1886. The report of the Examiner of Standing Orders was read* showing that the standing orders had not been complied with. The Bill was referred to the joint committee on Standing Orders. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Dr NEWMAN, a week's leave of absence was granted to Mr Fisher. QUESTIONS. Mr FITZHERBERT asked the Government whether they intended to appoint a Police Magistrate at Wellington. He mentioned, in putting the question, that it was absolutely necessary to have a Police Magistrate in Wellington. Mr Crawford, Mr Shaw, Mr Mansford, Mr Hardcaatle, and Mr. Wardell had all, he said, found the work of the resident magistracy too much for them ; and, besides, irrespective of the danger to the health of Magistrates, there was a great inconvenience to people who had business at the Court ? The PREMIER, replied that it was not the intention of the Government to appoint a police magistrate. If that were done, similar appointments would have to be made in each of the four centres of the Colony. He was informed that Mr Wardell had arranged with the Justices to get the work properly done. He admitted, however, that there had been a cress of work. The NATIVE MINISTER, in answer to Mr Locke, said efforts would be made to obtain from the Cape of Good Hope copies of the MSS. referred to by Sir G. Grey in the preface to his work, “Polynesian Mythology.” BILLS INTRODUCED. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time Mr Tole, the Magistrates Courts Bill; Sir J. Vogel, the Parcels Post Bill (in committee); a Bill to amend the East and West Coast (Middle Island) and Nelson Railway and Railways Construction Act, ISS4 (in committee). ORDER OF BUSINESS. The PREMIER moved that after this week the House should sit on Monday evenings for Government business, and that Government business should have precedence on Wednesday evenings. In answer to Sir George Grey the PREMI ER said the reason for the motion was that business might be faciliated. Sir GEORGE GRE Y said there was a great desire on the part of hon members to get away, but he considered they would not be doing their duty if they allowed the session to close in a month at no reduced cost to the country. Major ATKINSON pointed out that one way of reducing the cost was to reduce honorariums. He supported the motion, and hoped the Government would not flood the House with measures, but give time for the consideration of important ones. „ , . Mr BRADSHAW was in favor of reducing the number of members of both Houses. Mr O’CONOR thought the manner in which business was conducted in the Home was most unbusiness like. People said the House did too much legislation, but he said it talked too much. In ordinary business people did not wait till night, to speak to gallanes of ladies. They did it while in the possession of their senses—(laughter)—and not when they were tired out. He was of opinion that the hon gentleman who had just sat down would have done well if he had introduced the “eight hours system ” into the House. He hoped the Government would contrive to alter the manner of conducting the business. . , , Dr NEWMAN agreed with this, and pointed out that an hon member could under the present system talk any private member’s motion out. Generally he thought some regulation was necessary in reference to private business. Mr SAMUEL said the New Zealand Parliament did more legislation in a session than the House of Commons. He hoped that the number of the many attempts at tinkering at legislation would be reduced. The PREMIER, in reply, said the question of passing the legislative vote had always been left to private members. It was not at all a Government matter. . , The motion was then put and carried. SUPPLY RESOLUTIONS. Resolutions were reported from Committee of Supply and agreed to. NATIVE EQUITABLE OWNERS BILL. . The report of the Committee on this Bill was ag Mr d ORMOND considered the measure was ore one which should have had greater consideration. If he understood it riehtlv, it enabled all cases adjudicated upon by the Native Land Courts since hey were opened, to be reopened. tie did not think the House recognised what that meant. The Government should have declared that in cases of hardship to the Natives, such as were supposed to be met by this Bill, such cases would be laid before Parliament. He could scarcely realise that the House recognised what an enormous thing this was. The cost to which it would put the Colony would be such as to make the House regret its action. Another aspect of the matter was this that in cases where a European held an interest with Natives in a block, the Court was allowed to award him such compensation for his interest as the evidence led them to think adequate. In view of the unreliability ot evidence given by the Natives he considered this provision would jeopardise the interests of many Europeans. He contended that the Bill was legislating for a state of things that existed many years ago, but did not exist now. Air BRYCE said the Government had undertaken the responsibility of the Bill for the purpose of removing abuses which had arisen under the present law, and he should not, therefore, oppose it. Mr LOCKE considered the Bill, if passed, would open up expensive litigation of a most irritating nature. He wanted people who had bought land to be protected. If that was provided he was satisfied.. He was given to understand, however, that it was not. Colonel TRIMBLE contended that It was npcessarv that there should be litigation. If there was a doubt that the Bill did not cover the interests of bona fide buyers, he had no doubt it could be remedied. , The PREMIER said if the Bill did not carry out what it pretended to, the Government would see to it The Bill was simply to give people who had been wrongly excluded an oppoitunity of proving their titles. Mr PRATT said many Natives in the bouth Island complained that .they had been excluded from their rights in the South Island. He could not speak as to the North Island, but the Bill would be of great benefit to the South Island. . Mr MOSS referred to the case of Ivaraitana, who recently died, leaving in his name estates worth about £IOO.OOO. These lands belonged in all equity to large numbers of Natives, and what he wanted to know was, whether the Bill would meet the case, and prevent Karaitana’s heir from claiming the whole of the estate. The Natives residing on it, he understood, had already received notice to quit. ' Mr BEETHAM feared that the Bill was offering premiums to the Natives for dishonesty. After some further discussion, The NATIVE MINISTER, replying, said
the Bill more than did justice to the purchasers of land, since it gave the Judge power to complete titles. He could not say just then, whether or not the Bill would meet Karaitana’a The Bill was then, read the third time and passed. NATIVE LANDS ADMINISTRATION BILL. The NATIVE MINISTER moved the second reading of this Bill, which, he said, contained similar provisions to the Native Lands Disposition Bill introduced last session. He denied that that Bill was referred to the Native Affairs Committee for the purpose of shelving it. It was so referred, he said, to give the Native members an opportunity of discussing and considering the Bill which they could not obtain in the House. By that Committee all evidence was heard that bore upon the subject-matter of the Bill- The evidence was very contradictory, and the work of taking it went on till near the end of the session, when it was too late for the Committee to consider the Bill clause by clause. Therefore they recommended that the Bill should not be further proceeded with that session. This recommendation was agreed to. The next stage of the affair was that a large Native meeting was held at Hastings—one of the largest representative meetings ever held in the Colony—at which the Bill was considered, and a Committee appointed to suggest amendments. Amendments were suggested, which he accepted. The first was the change in the title. The next was with regard to the Boards for disposing of the land. The Natives objected to Boards, . preferring Commissioners. He was astonished at this, in view of the liberal Native representation on Boards given by the Bill. They objected to the Public Trusteee coming into the question. With regard to the Native Committees it had been said that those Committees would be corrupt bodies. Tnat entirely fell to the ground now. The administration of the land would rest in the Commissioners. Mr Bryce, in his Bill, had provided that the majority of the holders should decide as to whether land was to be sold.. Other people said, let us have representative chiefs. He (Mr Ballance) said, let us have a representative local body elected by the Natives. The next function of the Committee was deciding with the Commissioner what .should be set apart for roads and surveys. This could be done either by setting aside money out of the sale or a portion of the land. The Committee would bring people together and enable them to discuss questions, and it would also assist m the education of the Natives. Now he.turned to what he considered the central provision of the Bill, which was, first, that there, should,, m future, be no private dealings .with Native lands; and secondly, that Native lands, if they were sold, and not sold to the Government, should be disposed of in the same way as Crown lands, under the Land Act, These were the leading principles of the Bill. It appeared to him there was little difference between those who opposed the measure and himself. The Bill did not exclude the Crown from the right of purchase, and at the same time it allowed Natives to sell their land under the land laws of the Colony. The difference between himself and Mr Ormond was as to machinery, not as to . principle. He would
point out that the Natives, from end to end of the Colony, were in favor of the committees as proposed by the Bill, and some, deference, he submitted, must be paid to the wishes of the Natives in dealing with Native lands. He denied that the Bill would create great Maori landlords. These landlords had been created by former legislation—that law that made ten men the holders of large blocks, for instance. One reason for this Bill was,, that the work. of colonisation might be carried on. It was impossible to carry on that work at present it was standing still. He strongly disapproved of taxing Native lands. The Natives did pay, he believed, man for man, as much towards the taxation of the Colony as other people. They were large consumers, and they spent freely all the money they got. Then they were subjected to a special tax on the land going through the Court. He argued that at present the system of dealing with Native lands gave a monopoly to a few—a special system for a few people. And unless they adopted such a. law as this, he did not see how the evils of rings were to be done away with. If the lands were left in their present state, the operations of land rings would be carried on as they had in the past. They must face this question, and the difference now resolved itself into a question of machinery. He intended, if the. Bui was read the second time, to refer it again to the Native Affairs Committee, because the Committee had only done half its work, and it was only courtesy that they should have an opportunity of completing it. , , , On the motion of Mr BRYCE the debate was adjourned till Friday. NATIVE LAND COURT BILL. The NATIVE MINISTER, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it consolidated the laws at present obtaining in reference to the Land Courts. The second reading was agreed to. GOLD AND EXPORT DUTY ABOLITION BILL. The COLONIAL TREASURER moved the second reading of this Bill. The Government, he said, were in a great difficulty over the Bill, in consequence of the diverse opinions held in various parts of the Colony where gold was found. The Government proposed, therefore, the intermediate course of reducing the duty 6d per ounce per annum until the duty was abolished. . The debate was adjourned, on the motion of Mr O’CONOR, till Friday. JUSTICES OF THE PEACE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. At 5.30, when the adjournment was taken, progress was reported.
EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. ESTIMATES. The TREASURER moved the House into Committee of Supply. , ~ Sir GEORGE GREY thought it was hardly right to go on with the Estimates in such a poor House (there being a bare quorum preS6 ]Vlr FULTON also objected to the manner in which the Government had arranged for this evening’s sitting, Because the Governor gave a dinner the Government whips had been <ming round inducing the Government supporters to leave the Chamber so that the House might be counted out. Mr BRYCE said there was another reason why Government supporters should be present, and that was that it was to them the House must look to for that reduction of L 30.000 or L 40.000. If it was true that the Government supporters were absent, then the Opposition might make the reductions while they were Mr J. McKENZIE, as a Government whip, denied that he had made any effort to get Government supporters to leave the chamber. Mr THOMSON understood when they rose at 5.30 that the Justices of the Peace Bill was to be gone on with when they reSU The‘COLONIAL TREASURER said the Minister of Justice was ill and unable to be present.
Mr THOMSON said the Premier was in charge of the Bill during the afternoon. The House then went into Committee of Supply. Class lll.—Colonial Treasurer. Vote,, Treasury Department, L 6607. The Treasurer made explanation of several items in which increases were proposed. Mr Bryce asked whether the Treasurer saw his way to make any reductions, and if he did, what were thejr? He explained that the members who sat on his side of the House did not propose to make any proposals for reductions, or to take advantageof the exceptional circumstances that night,. which might enable them to make reductions. The Treasurer replied that since he had been in office he had saved LIOOO in salaries in this department. He could not suggest any further reduction. Mr Bryce said he had merely repeated a question which he intended to put on every department as it came up. The Treasurer replied that that was quite right, and he should be glad to give information. He thought they would be able to effect savings in the Colonial Secretary’s and Colonial Treasurer’s Departments, that was, on the expenditure. The principal savings, as far as he could see would come out of the defence, education, public works, and mines votes. Mr Wakefield objected to the Treasurer making a financial statement in this way, because he could not be replied to. He objected to the increases of high salaries ;,however, after the vote a few evenings before, he , should not vote for any reduction. Mr Barron, agreed with; this, and said to attack the Estimates in detail would be to beat the wind. Dr Newman suggested that the item “ Miscellaneous Services ” offered the best chance of reductions. Mr Ormond said the peculiarity of the debate was that hon gentlemen who voted with the Government the other night now said they wanted reductions. He did not concur with the view of Mr Bryce that the Estimates should be swallowed in globo. They had attempted to make reductions and had failed; and the statement of the Treasurer obliterated any hope of reduction. He saw no good to be obtained from the course they were now going through, but if any reduction was proposed he should support it, because he thought it was not right to propose any increases. Mr Taylor suggested that the hon member for Akaroa (Mr Montgomery) should, if he was sincere in his professions, propose reductions. There was the Governor’s salary. Why not reduce that by LISOO ? Why not attack the Estimates item by item ? Mr Bryce said it was utterly useless for hon members to propose reductions item by item. Mr Reid said he was in favor of retrenchment, but the motion of Mr Montgomery would not have effected it. The Treasurer quoted figures to show that the amount asked for the vote they were considering was less than it had been in previous years. He protested against the principle of Mr Ormond, to vote blindly for any reduction that was proposed. Mr G. F. Richardson moved to reduce the item secretary to Treasury, LSOQ, by LIOO. Mr Fulton should not vote—■; he should walk out of the House. Mr Ormond explained that he had said he _ would support, every proposal to reduce large increases, The Colonial Treasurer apologised for misrepresenting the hon gentleman. Mr Stewart expressed surprise at the amount of petulance exhibited by hon members because they had been unable to carry the motion for retrenchment. The attitude taken by the Opposition was that they would let the Government hang themselves with extravagance. Mr Montgomery, while he agreed with Mr Bryce’s attitude, should not refrain from voting when he could assist a reduction. Mr Beetham be--lieved that the motion proposed by Mr Montgomery would have the effect of inducing economy. He should not vote against these increases, because the salaries, he believed, were necessary. The responsibility of reducing the Estimates lay with the Government. Mr Bryce said he was not acting from petulance, but because it was utterly futile to attempt to make reductions. Did the . hon gentleman remember any occasion on v hick such attempts had been successful ? The motion to reduce the item Secretary to Treasury, LBOO, was then put, and a division taken. Ayes, 15 ; noes, 9—item reduced. Mr O’Conor moved that the item, assistant secretary toTreasury, L 550, be reduced by LSO. Carried. The vote, as reduced, was agreed to. Property Tax Department, L 18,897. Agreed
to. Friendly Societies Registry Office, L 1350. Agreed to. Miscellaneous services, L21,_200. The Treasurer said with regard to the item LIO,OOO forthe Indian and Colonial Exhibition, it was proposed to give LSOO as a bonus to the AgentGeneral. In answer to Mr Turnbull, the Treasurer said LIO,OOO would cover all expenditure. Mr Barron : Then we understand that about L 14.000 will cover the whole cost to the Colony ? The Treasurer : Yes. In answer to Mr Barron, Sir Julius added that the expenditure on the Industrial Exhibition was to be attributed to the success of the Exhibition. Mr Wakefield said' the Treasurer had not explained what the LSOO to the AgentGeneral was to cover. It would appear that the Agent-General’s expenses were less than usual, “ because he dined out every night.” He asked whether there were any other votes for other gentlemen included in the LIO,OOO. The Treasurer said the salary of the AgentGeneral was not sufficient for him to live on. in London, and as it was very certain that a? large number of functions would be thrown on the Agent-General this year they had proposed the sum mentioned. Mr Wakefield said, his question had not been answered. The Treasurer said there was nothing of the kind. Dr Newman remarked that an hon member, who had been anxious to reduce by Lloo' thesalary of a hard-working officer, left the Chambers when LSOO was proposed to a relation of his; Colonel Trimble called attention to the expenditure on exhibitions, which was, he said", in a country like this, quite unjustifiable.. .The Treasurer defended the principle of exhibitions,, and the vote to the Agent-General. That gentleman, he said, was now almost the senior Agent-General, and had rendered very great service to the Colony in many ways.. Mr Wakefield denied that industrial exhibitions in the Colony were a success. If it had not. been for the amusements, the recent Exhibition at Wellington would have been the blackest or failures. The vote was agreed to. Clause VII., Commissioner of Stamps. Vote, Stamp Department, L 7256. Agreed to. Lands and Deeds Registry, L 22.725. Agreed
to. Miscellaneous services L 52», agreed to. Class VI.. Commissioner of Trade ana Customs; Vote, Customs offices and services, L 44.266. Agreed to. Marine and Harbors, L 33,413. Agreed to. Miscellaneous services, L 11.318. Some discussion took place in reference to the Hinemoa. Mr Ormond moved to reduce the vote by LIO,OOO, the amount proposed for repairs to the Hinemoa. He considered, the boat unnecessary and expensive. The Minister of Mines said it was absolutely necessary to have the boat. The Minister of Mines said the Hinemoa had saved the Colony LIIOQ during the year. The Treasurer said it was not wise to discuss such a question as this in such a thin house. If the vessel was 1 sold she would be sold at a loss, and as soon as.
•wool went up again they would _ have to get another steamer, Mr Ormond said they were there to discuss the Estimates, and it was not their fault if other hon members were not there. Mr O’Oonor thought the Government should get a boat infinitely better than the Hinemoa ever would be. A division was taken on the motion to reduce the item by Llo,opo. Ayes, 18; noes, 14. Motion for reduction carried. The vote as reduced to Ll3lß was agreed to. Sir JULIUS VOGEL moved to report progress. He withdrew this, however, and the supper adjourn ment was taken. On resuming, progress was reported. EMPLOYMENT OP FEMALES AND OTHERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL, Mr BRADSHAW, in moving the > second reading of this Bill, (which is identical with the one introduced last session), .alluded to the number of strikes now occurring in consequence of boys being employed. The motion was agreed to. WELLINGTON AND WANGANUI EDUCATION DISTRICTS BILL. This Bill was read a second time on the motion of Mr WILSON, the mover expressing his willingness to move a clause suggested by Mr Bryce. SMALL BIRDS NUISANCE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr SUTTER moved the second reading of this Bill, which, he said, was found very necessary in his district. ' The EREMIER would not oppose the second reading of the Bill, but he pointed out that the proposal to lay poison about was a very dangerous one. MrDODSON moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr SEDOON seconded the amendment, and suggested that that the Premier should have a motion to that effect. Mr SUTTER, in reply, said the hon member for Kumara (Mr Seddon) had not got any level land in his district, and ought not to say anything about this Bill; but he was one of those who talked about anything and everything. Mr KERR said the birds in his district were quite a nuisance, and this Bill would do a great deal of good. . . ~ Mr FULTON hoped the opposition would be withdrawn. . . Mr WAKEFIELD hoped the opposition would not be withdrawn. He did not believe the birds were such a nuisance as they were said to be. He alluded to the controversy which was going on in the papers about this question. (An Hon Member : Where ?) Why in all the papers. (Mr Sutter : Only in the Evening Press.) The birds had been the greatest friends the farmers ever had. Mr BUCHANAN said it was evident that Mr Wakefield had never been a small farmer, and had not come into contact with those who were. , ~ Mr PRATT, as a farmer, supported the
Bill. Mr BRYCE agreed that there was a great difference of opinion on this question. He thought small farmers would be inclined to take the same view as Mr Pratt. V The amendment was lost by 26 to 23. The Bill was then read the second time. The House rose at 11.20. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9. The House met at 2.30. WELLINGTON AND MANAWATU RAILWAY VALIDATION BILL. The Joint Committee on Standing Orders recommended that this Bill be allowed to proceed on notice being given in the Gazette, and in Wellington newspapers of the intention to introduce it. Mr HAMLIN, as Chairman of the Committee, gave notice of his intention to move that the report be adopted, and that certain Standing Orders should be dispensed with, as recommended. PETITIONS. Various petitions were presented. BEPORTS. Reports of Select Committess were presented. QUESTIONS. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in reply to Mr Hamlin, said that the difference between the charges made at the Onehunga and Auckland wharves was that on carts going on to the wharves ; the reason for which was that at Auckland the wharf was maintained by the Harbor Board, Mr MOSS asked the Premier, If he will communicate with the Governments of the other Australasian colonies, to ascertain if it he practicable, so long as French convicts are sent to the Pacific, to unite in preventing intercourse with trading vessels coming from French colonial ports until it shall have bren proved to the satisfaction of a compentent officer at the port of arrival that such vessels have not among the passengers or crew any person who is a convict, or who has been a convict within the previous three years ? The time was coming, he said, when steps would have to be taken to show the determination of the people of Australasia not to allow convicts to be brought out to these seas; and it struck him that a species of quarantine would be the best way of marking that determination. If steps of this kind were taken, they would bring home to the French nation the discredit into which they were bringing the French name in these colonies.
The PREMIER said the question appeared to point to federal action. There was an Act of 1867 preventing convicts under sentence from landing in the Colony. He did not know, however, that they could pass such an Act as that suggested. How were they to know whether a person was a convict or not. He did not see how they could give effect to the suggestion. BILLS INTRODUCED. Bills were introduced and read the first time as follows ; —Mr Tole, The Auckland Harbor Board Loan Bill; Mr Reid, A Bill to amend The Salmon and Trout Act, 1867 ; Mr Grace, The Tauranga Harbor Bill; Sir Julius Vogel, A Bill to restrict the Application of the North Island Main Trunk Railway Loan. RETRENCHMENT. Mr O’CONOR moved, That a committee be appointed to consider and report what retrenchment may be made in the expenditure connected with the Legislature. The committee to consist of the Hon the Premier, Hon Major Atkinson, Mr Garrick, Mr Barron, Mr Dargaville, Mr Levestam, Mr T. Thompson, Mr Brown, and the mover ; with power to call for persons and papers; four to form a quorum. To report in three weeks. The PREMIER said this concerned a matter controlled by the House, and, in which the Government did not interfere. If the House wished to consider it, therefore, the Government would not oppose it. He asked that his name should be left out, and that the Speaker should be added, with his consent. Major ATKINSON considered that the Premier should be on the committee. Mr BRYCE did not accept the position taken by the Premier of repudiating responsibility. The Government might take the same view of every item on the Estimates. The SPEAKER remarked that he would probably be called a 3 a witness by the Committee. The motion was then put and carried. TERRACE .GAOL.
all correspondence between the Minister of Justice and the Visiting Justices of the Terrace Gaol, Wellington, with reference to the treatment of unconvicted prisoners. Carried
CONTRACTS TO MAORIS. Dr NEWMAN moved, That, in the opinion of this House, no contracts for works out of loan should be offered to Maoris alone, but should be open alike to Europeans and M The B ’MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS argued that it was a question of policy,. in carrying the railway through the King Country to let contracts to Natives ; and the cost of the contracts that had been let had not been excessive. The motion was put and lost by 39 to 37. KERMADEC ISLANDS. The PREMIER said that as this was a private member’s day, he should not make his motion in reference to the Kermadec Islands till Friday. Sir GEORGE GREY made an objection to the postponement. SPECIAL SETTLEMENT REGULATIONS. Mr VVTL~>ON moved, That the special settlement regulations be so altered that a three months’ residence during any year from the third to the sixth, after occupation, shall be sufficient to comply with them. - The MINISTER , of LANDS hoped the motion would be withdrawn. He had not, he said, had any complaints on the matter. In the course of a lengthy discussion which ensued, ' „ . ~ ~ Mr BEETHAM moved to alter three months ” to “ six months.” Mr WILSON accepted the amendment. Mr HURSTHOUSE said he did not believe in the special settlements system .at all; he looked upon it as a “ fad ” of politicians who had no actual knowledge of the settlement of the land, and who tried to put on to the land men who were out of place there. He pointed out, too, that the regulations were made surreptitiously, and the House knew nothing of them. The motion being put, the voting was— Ayes, 34 ; noes, 35. Motion lost. THE RABBIT QUESTION. Mr BUCHANAN moved, That it be an instruction to the committee appointed on the rabbit question to also consider the working of the Sheep Act. Carried.
GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. Mr ORMOND moved for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into and report on the subject of the investments made by the Government Insurance Association in land purchases, and also to report generally on the working of the institution ; with power to call for persons and papers. Such Committee to consist of Mr Montgomery, Mr Gore, Mr M. J. S. McKenzie, Mr Macandrew, Mr Holmes, Mr G. F. Richardson, Mr W. D. Stewart, Mr Levestam, Colonel Fraser, and the mover; four to be the quorum; to report within a month. Mr PEARSON seconded the motion, -which was carried. GOODS TRAFFIC. Mr J. C. BROWN moved—That a return be laid before the House showing the amount of goods traffic which was carried on the Lawrence line of railway for delivery in the interior of Otago beyond Lawrence during the last two years ending the 31st March, 1886. The PREMIER did not think it would be possible to give the information, The motion was lost, on division, by 27 to 25. RESERVES. The adjourned debate on Dr Newman’s motion to set aside reserves in the North Island for charitable aid, harbors, and education, was resumed. Dr NEWMAN expressed his willingness to amend the motion by striking out “harbors.” Permission to do this was refused, and the motion was put, Ayes, 22 ; Noes, 36. Motion lost. PACIFIC ISLANDS. Sir GEORGE GREY rose at 5.15 to move— That the House concurs in the report of the Pacific Islands Committee. Major ATKINSON said he had understood that a time was to be set apart for consideration of this matter. He suggested that the motion be taken next evening. This was agreed to. ECONOMY. Mr J. E. BROWN moved, that the circumstances of th 3 Colony require the most rigid economy in the official and departmental expenditure, and to enable this to be done in the most practical way, this House is of opinion that the Government should appoint two practical expert accountants, having access to the departmental administration of the public service, to inquire and report as to possible saving therein, without impairing the efficiency of the Civil Service. He explained that he did not want to have an all-round reduction of 10 or 15 per cent, but a reduction in numbers. He wanted a searching inquiry by men who understood the matter. He was informed that a saving of L 50.000 could be made in the store department of railways. They could do with two Ministers less in the Government, and Parliament could be reduced by at least one“third. The motion was under discussion when the 5.30 adjournment was taken.
EVENING SITTING. • The House resumed at 7.30. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr O’CONOR moved the second reading of this Bill, which, he said, was the same as he had brought down last session. The PREMIER said it would be wise to pass the measure with certain restrictions. The motion was then put and carried. ELECTION OF LAND BOARDS BILL. The second reading of this Bill was deferred till the 24th June. FISH AUCTION BILL. Colonel ERASER moved the second reading of this Bill, the object of which was, he said, to enable fishermen to dispose of their fish by auction. They had been doiDg so till lately in the Thames, but an old provincial ordinance had been discovered which prohibited the sale before 10 a.m. or after 4 p.m. The motion was agreed to. INTOXICATING LIQUORS (SALE TO CHILDREN) 0 BILL. The second reading of this (Mr Fisher’s) Bill was adjourned for a week. LAND ASSOCIATION BILL. Mr IYESS, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said he was afraid that he had undertaken a difficult task, since it was almost impossible for a private member to get such a Bill through. The people in Canterbury had hoped that the Treasurer would have introduced a Bill to give relief to long-suffering agriculturists in accordance with the promise he had made at Auckland. When the Financial Statement came down, however, they found that he was not going to do it, and great disappointment was felt, in consequence, by people who had long been suffering under the high rates of interest. He contended that it was the duty of the Government to assist this class of people. He hoped the House would assist those who wished to assist themselves, by enabling them to get cheaper money. Money could be ob- • - - • o OT „rhat:
innovation, he said, this intervention oE the f State, and he cited instances of its success in \ Prussia. The Bill he now introduced provided • for the establishment of co-operative associations. General debentures would be issued when the capital was called up to the extent of one-tenth. Provision was made for the use of loans, debentures, etc. Mr Ivess, having given a few additional particulars, was about to conclude, when Major ATKINSON expressed a hope that the hon gentleman would explain the Bill. Mr IVESS then weut. through the Bill, explaining its various provisions. Mr TAYLOR said the hon gentleman had not had time to “ get up and elucidate the Bill.” (Laughter.) “Upon my conscience,” said Mr Taylor, “its all very well to laugh, but this question of dealing with the lands was a very serious one.” There was Sir George Grey—he was taking it all in. (Laughter.) Why didn’t he or Major Atkinson get up and speak about the Bill. The COLONIAL TREASURER said the Bill had only lately come under his notice, and he had not had time to study it. The measure, however, seemed to him to be a very complicated one, , and some of the clauses struck him as likely to be very difficult to work. He considered it undesirable to give associations the power of issuing notes —such an issue should be reserved to the State. With reference to the question of private borrowing, he contended that the amount of private borrowing was not part of the debt of the Colony. There was an evident tendency to decrease the rate of interest he said, and great savings had been effected in consequence. He had proposed some 18 months ' ago that the Government should take up the object for which this Bill was introduced, and lend money in small sums. The Government, however, had received strong hints that the borrowing of money for this purpose in England would be distasteful. He was not in a position now to find funds for lending money. He should not oppose the second reading, as affirmative of a principle. He suggested that the debate, should be adjourned, at the same time disclaiming any want of sympathy with the object of the measure. Mr WALKER moved the adjournment of the debate till the 24th instant. This was agreed to. LAND FOR SETTLEMENT BILL. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the second reading of this Bill, which attempted, he said, to turn the present depression to the future good of the Colony. At present there were large estates in many parts of the Colony, and people were unable to take up lands in the same locality. At the same time it was almost impossible to sell land, and many of the large estates were heavily mortgaged, This Bill proposed to take everything as it stood—value at property-tax valuations, and assuming titles to be correct. It provided that the Governor might acquire land for settlement either by purchase or by
taking it under the Public Works Act. The means to enable this to be done were land bonds, which the Government was not compelled to redeem at any particular date, but could buy from time to time. A limit was placed on the acquisition of such funds,. and a competent actuary had asserted that if this Bill was carried out no loss could accrue in any case. There would be expenses, of course, such as roads, surveys, &c. .When the land was obtained it would be divided into farms. Individuals could then select what farms they liked, and the first selector could go on to the farm and hold it for six months when he would have to commence the payment of interest. Thus a person could go on a farm without expenditure in the first instance. All he would be required to pay would be the interest every six months. The greatest possible advantages, he contended, would spring from such a system as this. To all intents and purposes it amounted to a fee simple, for a man could do what he liked with his farm —sell or cut it up. It would be said that this would induce .speculation—to which the answer was that an individual should only once make such an acquisition. If this system was adopted large numbers of young couples, and intending young couples would go forth and take possession of farms. He felt certain also that large numbers of people in towns would take farms for their children. He had been told that he was a dreamer —that the pick and shovel men of the cities would not go. into the country—thatthesemen wanted publichouses.theatres.gas lit streets, and city associations, and he maintained that if that was so, it was possible to change the ideas of men in a generation. If men could be induced to go into agricultural pursuits, they would raise up a much better population. He believed that there would be no difficulty in dealing with the Native lands in the way he proposed now. The whole of the public lands of the Colony would come under this system, which was far better than the many systems now in force. The Bill would also assist people out of the Colony to come to it. People could get no Government land to suit them, the prices were too heavy. If he were to detail all the advantages accruing from this system, he would detain hon gentlemen all night. But he had said enough, he thought, to show the principle of the Bill. The PREMIER agreed with the principle that the State should have the right to purchase land for settlement. As far as that
principle went, it was affirmed and provided for in last session’s Act. The hon gentleman, however, had not suggested such details as would enable the Bill to be carried out. He pointed out that the scheme was not a new one, having been introduced by Mr Steward two years ago. There were now, he said, 25,000,000 acres of good land in the Colony and 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 of acres of Native land. About Ll san acre would be a fair average of the price paid, or put it at LlO. He calculated that to settle 1000 people, with 200 acres each, would need L 3,000,000 of land bonds. This Bill would lead. to accusations against the Government officials of corruption. What was to be the position of the land? After five years the farmers could go on again selling ; and this system of purchase was to go on for ever. This was no settlement of the land question. The Government ought to have control over the lands. Then, as to finance. The people were not bound to accept the bonds—they might take cash. He thought the people would prefer the cash. (Hear, hear,) He characterised the Bill as one of the wildest schemes ever suggested. Talk about damaging the credit of the Colony after this ! The hon member had really not thought out the details of . his . Bill. He admitted that there were districts in the Colony that required a scheme for the purchase of land ; but even then the most extreme caution would have to be observed. In
concluding, Sir Robert said the very fact of this Bill being brought in showed th it the freehold system had broken down. (No 1) He maintained that the State should not give up control of the land. Mr HURSTHOUSE agreed with the principle of the Bill, but thought that the mover had not proposed details which would properly carry it out, or which gave effect to his postsessional speeches. Unless the hon gentleman was prepared to make considerable alterations / in the Bill, he should to_oppc*se it.. . j
Premier's statement as to the large amount of land now available for settlement was a fatal objection to the Bill. He denied that the principle of the Bill had been affirmed—the principle had only been affirmed in questions of taking land for roads, etc. But now it was proposed to take land from one farmer to give to another. That was a dangerous proceeding. Then there was no finality about tne system. Bonds would have to be sold at a sacrifice in many cases too. He combatted the Premier’s argument that the Bill showed the failure of the freehold tenure. The simple fact was that there was no need for the Bill—it was fifty years in advance of the time. Hon Mr ROLLESTON contended that there was necessity for the Bill. This principle had been affirmed time after time. It was affirmed by Mr Gladstone, and he quoted Mr Gladstone’s words. He did not agree with the Premier’s statement as to the land available for settlement in New Zealand. Reports in the Lands Department would show that this was not so. The present position of the land question in New Zealand was far from satisfactory. Then large borrowing was being carried on without any provision being, made for extension of settlement. He considered the principle of the Bill was one which would be adopted by the House, and it was a Bill that he was glad to see, because it contained a principle that would not have been received in the House some years ago. .He disapproved of the proposal to take the property-tax valuations, because he did not think the assessment correctly represented the value of the land. The system of land bonds was objectionable—an easy way of borrowing that would lead to extravagance. He was glad to notice that Sir George Grey had changed his opinions, and now adopted the leasing system. By introducing this system, the hon gentleman was inconsistent to his arguments in previous years, that the State should have the unearned increment. He (Mr Rolleston) suggested that the principle of this Bill and borrowing should go together. The Government was a borrowing one—it borrowed ideas as well as money—and If they borrowed they should run the two systems together. The former Government had adopted such a course, which the present one might follow. The TREASURER contended that there was no such thing as a perpetual lease. A lease was a chattel, and it could not be supposed that future Governments would hold the same views as to the land. As regarded the Bill, it was a principle very much in advance of the real practical road of the settlement of the Colony. He contended that it was not reasonable to ask people to go on the land in this way, and calculate on getting an early return. How much land had they of which they could ask that ? He did not consider the machinery of the Bill properly provided for the carrying out of the great principle of the Bill. He remarked that he did not know whether it was necessary to take the land compulsorily, as was suggested. Large holders bought their estates and paid for them at a time when the Provincial Governments were glad to sell them, and now, he believed, many were willing to sell. He suggested asking for tenders from persons wishing to sell land, and decision in a sort of Court. Then the land should be surveyed, roads made, etc., and the land sold (not by auction, because he thought the system of sale by auction was a bad one) to the extent of three-quarters of the whole. He disapproved of the number of restrictions under present systems, and expressed an opinion that holders would rise here, as they had in other countris, and demand titles. In conclusion, he said if the Bill paved the way for settlement it would also have the other advantages claimed for it. He hoped the Bill would be read the second time and altered in committee as might be found desirable. Mr BRUCE opposed the Bill as altogether inadmissable under the present conditions, Mr STEWARD said it was no new thing for him to speak upon such a scheme as this in the House, and he quoted extracts from his speech, when addressing his constituents, to show that he had there advocated it. He pointed out that Dr Hector estimated the arable land in the Colony at 12,000,000 acres, and said that whatever the area of land was, the Government should attempt to give relief to the large numbers of unemployed congregated in various centres. If something was done to get land in the neighborhood of these centres it would be of great benefit, but they wanted more—they wanted areas of land to be taken by small farmers, who would employ men. He thought our land system would be improved, and settlement advanced by people being allowed to take up land on any of the systems. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND would support the Bill, in order that it might be seen whether it would satisfy the people who were always crying out for land. Mr KERR ridiculed the idea that the land laws of the Colony had caused the depression. He said the proper remedy for the depression was to develop the mineral industries of the Colony. The land laws were liberal enough now. He pointed out that the hon members who had spoken that night were all theorists, and knew nothing whatever about land. He moved, as an amendment, that the Bill be read the second time that day fifty years. (Laughter and applause.) Mr DODSON was in favor of affirming the principle of the Bill. lie should like to see the principle tried as an experiment. Mr TURNBULL supported the second reading of the Bill. On the motion of Major ATKINSON, the debate was adjourned, and the House rose at 12.30.
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New Zealand Mail, Issue 745, 11 June 1886, Page 9
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19,279PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Mail, Issue 745, 11 June 1886, Page 9
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