PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 662, 31 October 1884, Page 3 (Supplement)

PARLIAMENT.

Continued from Page 10.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m., when the de Mr e H a C: eS BU e CK£AND, who remarked that had the proposals of the Treasurer been made ten years ago the position the colony would have stood in to-day would have been a very different ore to that which it now occupied. It was the duty of the colony to go outside the narrow bounds »y which they were circumscribed if they desired prosper. 619 He felt assured that New Zealand would yet send forth great traders to the cirmth "Pacific with a view of drawing to the colony the wealth of the islands, whidr, from their position, were the natural heritage ot New Zealand, which, owing to its splendid climate would attract wealthy persons from other countries, who wpuid spend their days here He was quite willing to allow that great difficulties surrounded the question of trading bythe proposed company, and. it would be a ’ Sitter of time ere the company would Perhaps ■ enjoy a prosperous career, But these difficulties should not daunt them. He ventured to say that every system of colonisation had had the effect of civilizing the native races m the past ' 'and he considered that the proposed company would have the same effect. W lfc h regard to the argument which had been advanced by the bon. member for Clutha, that the proposal would have the effect of interfering with the existing rights of traders, he certainly allowed that it possessed some force. Although not altogether approving of the Bill he should support the motion for the second reading. Mr MOSS, with some reluctance, rose to oppose the motion. Reluctance because Bon. the Treasurer had displayed a large amount of patience in framing the Bui. IV nac were the staple products the coinpany was to deal in ’ They were not gold and jewels or costly furs, but very common-place articles, such as beche de mer, cocoanuts and bananas and tksawfore he did not think it necessary to form a large company in order to supply these colonies and England with i such articlesj. Such a trade as proposed must be gradually built up as the agents of the company learnt their business. These agents, who, perhaps, would not be of very good character, would be little kings amongst the natives, and therefore he hoped the Colonial Treasurer would pause before giving such men despotic power. Another objection to the proposed company would be that it would have the effect of crushing out large and thriving companies who were at present engaged not only in the copra industry but also in laying down beds of oysters. These companies would have to sell out to the proposed ■ company, who would also be deprived of the large _ carrying business which had been established in Auckland. It should be borne in mind that the East Indian Company and the. Hudson Bay ■ Gompany had to pay the British Government for their charter, and, m addition, everything beyond 10 per cent, profit went to the Crown. These companies he had mentioned had actually stopped trade, and had been instrumental in closing the countries in which they traded to the outside world. Another fatal objection was that the company would be a mixture of business and politics. One of these two results would be that either the one would languish or the other would be degraded. Take the history of the early period of the East India Company : what atrocities were committed by its officers, and it. was not till the last century, when an Imperial Governor ■was sent out, that India became an unsealed country, and the atrocities and horrors which had been committed ceased. His advice to the Government was to leave the people of the islands alone to themselves, and, if this were done, the indomitable energy and perseverance of the people of New Zealand would carry out the prospect of trading with the islands to their own individual advantage and to the benefit of the colony. His advice to the Government was to attend to their own business, and endeavor to decrease the burden of taxation. Dr. NEWMAN remarked that the project did not recommend itself to his mind. . The Treasurer, in glowing terms, had laid the riches of the islands bare before them. But this was in the dim and distant future. The scheme was nothing more than a modification of the scheme which was propounded some years ago, and, like that project, it was as baseless. One of the most extraordinary provisions in the Bill was that for issuing promissory notes, by which millions of notes could be circulated amongst the savages, who, together with their lands, might be brought up with paper which would be as worthless as the paper currency of France during the time of the revolution. He ventured to combat the assertion of the Treasurer that there would be no monopoly, for if there was no monopoly the company would cease to exist. The proposed company would be totally different from the East India Company and the Hudson’s Bay Company, which acquired vast tracts of land which they sold, and by which they made their profit. Mr GARRICK expressed regret that he was unable to support the second reading, and he thought that it would be far better to negative the motion rather than to take it into Committee and make nothing of the Bill. By the Bill the credit of the colony would be pledged to the company. The Bill pledged the colony to the responsibility of imclemnifying everybody «f/io may have any connection with if and, in addition, the consolidated revenue oFthe colony was pledged to give 5 per cent, on the paid-up capital of the colony. However much he admitted the genius and resources of the Colonial Treasurer, and however much he admired the rhetoric of the hon. gentleman, and while he admitted that theylooked to the Treasurer to retrieve the fortunes of the colony, still he reserved to himself the right to criticise any measures the Treasurer might brin" down, and he therefore regretted that he was compelled to say that he considered that the Treasurer had signally failed to show any reason why the Bill should be allowed to pass. No facts had been placed before the House to warrant them in passing the measure ; but in the present depressed condition of the colony, he did not think that the House should agree to the second reading. He could understand the reason for the Government prosecuting harbor works or any other unproductive works within the colony, but where the theatre of action was so far removed from the colony, as it would be by the present Bill, it would be unwise to proceed further with the measure. Then again, outside influences would interfere with the working of the company, for w l\ e ( f. e so many foreign interests were involved, dim culties mu3t inevitably occur. The company would have the privilege of using notes to a very large amount, and if the company were to be a failure the colony would be compelled to pay the company’s creditors2os in the pound. He failed to see why the company should be empowered to issue bank notes. The issue would have the effect of throwing open the doors to fraud without giving any protection ( to the creditors. He would like to point out that already a large and successful trading company was at present? in existence, viz., the New Zealand Loan and Mercantile

Company, who had no power to issue bank notes, but carried on a large business without the privilege of being a bank of issue. At any rate for the present session the Bill was not needed. The measure was a crude one, and as there was an absence of facts, and in addition, the colony was in a depressed condition, he trusted the House would not permit the Bill to go into committee. Mr MAC ANDREW thought that no time was like the present for carrying out the BUI and if it was placed beyond all doubt that no sum beyond LIO.OOO per annum could be guaranteed out of the consolidated revenue, the Bill would have his support. The matter of a bank note issue was a matter of detail, and might be considered in Committee. The TREASURER had but little to reply to, and all he had heard , had certainly not altered his convictions as to the utility of the Bill. He could not see how any hon. member could doubt that the colony could be pledged to more than LIO.OOO per annum. With regard to the fear which had been expressed that the company would crush out a-number of small trading vessels, all he could say was that if such a thing did happen it would be a very good thing indeed,. a 3j these vessels were nothing more than traders in human flesh. With regard to the objections of the hon. member for Selwyn, lie might say that that hon. gentleman possessed the faculty ot talking on either side just as suited his purpose, and as of course. he invariably attacked any measure which might be brought down by the Government, it was no surprise that he had opposed the proposition. He altogether failed to see the objection to the company issuing bank notes. At present the currency in the islands was of a most base nature, and included the coinage of every nation. He could not see why the company should not be a great commercial success, for there were probabilities and possibilities in the proposal which contained the elements of success, and the onlv risk : the colony ran was covered by an outlay of at the outside of LIO.OOO per year at 7 x per cent. With these remarks he should leave the Bill in the hands of the House. The House divided on the question for the second reading, with the following result. Ayes, 28 ; noes, 39. . ... The following is the division list _ * Ayes, 28.— Ballance, Bevan, BraidshaighBradshaw, Brown, J. C. Buckland (teller), Cadiran, Dargaville, Fitzherbert, Guinness, Hamlin, Harper, Hobbs, Joyce, Lance, Larnach, Locke, Macandrew, J. McKenzie, O’Callaghan, Pearson, E. Richardson, bhephard, Shrimski, W. 0. Steward, Stout, Tole, Vogel, Walker (teller). Noes, 39. — Allwright, Barron, Bruce, Bryce Buchanan, W. F. Buckland, Conolly, Dodson, Fergus, Fulton, Garrick, Gngg, Hatch, H. Hirst, Hursthouse. Johnston, Lake, Levestam, Menteath, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Moss (teller), Newman, Ormond, Peacock, Reese, G. F. Richardson, Rolleston, Ross, Russell, Samuel, Sutter, T. Thompson, J. W. Thomson, Trimble, Turnbull, Wakefield (teller), W. White, Wilson. EAST AND WEST COAST RAILWAY BILL. This. Bill was returned from the Legislative Council with amendments. . The TREASURER, in moving that the amendment be agreed to, said that die did not think that the company would take up the work in the face of the amendment. The Government would absolve themselves from all blame in the matter. He believed that the work was of such a character, and was of so much importance to Canterbury, and to the West Coast people, that they would not rest content until it was carried out. He was pleased that the Bill had passed the other Chamber, and therefore he hoped that the amendment as proposed by the Council would be agreed to by the House. The amendment made by the other Chamber was the expunging of clause 9. The motion was agreed to. WEST COAST SETTLEMENT RESERVES ACT AMEND-

MENT BILL. The amendments in this Bill made in committee were reported and agreed to, and the third reading, on the motion of Mr TE AC, was adjourned to the next day. ROAD BOARDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The House went into committee npon this Bill, which was reported with unimportant amendments. LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was further considered m Committee. A new clause, making the Land Boards Inquiry Act, 1883, operative m respect to leases and licenses, was a :Ided to the Bill* Clauses 14 and 15 (new clauses), the former being a proviso as to bush lands and the latter making it imperative to hand over one-fourth of the rents from perpetual leases to local bodies, was added. A new clause was also added dealing with the granting of future leases on the Westport Colliery Reserve. A further new clause, with a view to 10,000 acres being set apart between Catlin’s River and Waikawa for a special settlement for Highland crofters, was inserted.. A further new clause providing for the disposal of Crown lands by ballot instead of by auction was lost by agdivision. Ayes, 17; noes, 29. A new clause bringing the homestead system into force in the Nelson district was lost. Ayes, 14 ; noes, 22. Several additional amendments having been agreed to, progress .was reported, and leave was given to sit again on the next day. LIFE ASSURANCE POLICIES BILL.. This Bill was further considered in committee, and clause 2 having been agreed to progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again on Wednesday. The House adjourned at 2.3 a.m. WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 29. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. QUESTIONS. The MINISTER for LANDS, in -answer to Mr Pyke, said that the Government had placed a sum upon the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose of the services of Professor Ulrich, as recommended by the Goldfields and Mines Committee. The PREMIER, replying to Mr Hamlin, said that it was impossible to alter the tariff this year with a view to protecting the beekeeping industry of the colony. He had ascertained that there was a tariff, in Victoria, Tasmania, and Western Australia on honey. With regard to permitting all sundries required for beekeepers in the colony being admitted duty free, he thought that all machinery required for the industry might be made in the colony. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in answer to Mr McMillan, said that the report and maps giving the result of the survey of the East and West Coast Railway would be distributed amongst hon. members within the next two or three days. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, replying to Mr Bryce as to whether the Government will consider the necessity of opening up Field’s track, situate ninety-five miles from Marton, near the North Island Trunk Railway line, said that the track was not likely to be largely used in connection with the construction of the line, as a road leading from Napier would prove more convenient. The MINISTER for MINES, in answer to Mr Seddon, said that it was not the intention of the Government at present to reduce the price of water to miners using the Kumara water-race.

The MINISTER for JUSTICE, in reply to Mr O’Callaghan, said that the Government already had a large amount of information as to the working of the Contagious Diseases Act n those countries in which it is in force, but they still required further information on the SU The Ct MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in reply to Mr Ormond, who asked if the Go vernment was aware that most of the wool traffic that used to be done by the. railways from Hastings to Napier is now being done bv horse-drays, said that the department could not alter the railway charges this year ; ' but after that, if it was found that reductions could be made without affecting the railway revenue, such reductions would be tried. Mr MACARTHUR asked the Minister for Public Works, (1) Whether he is aware that arrangements are being made to float logs down the Wanganui River to the mills m Wanganui, in consequence of the prohibitive tariff and mode of measurement adopted by the railway authorities on the Foxton-New Plymouth railway • (2) whether he is aware that, m consequence of the authorities on that railway having adopted a new mode of measurement, large contracts for the supply from Manawatu, and delivery of logs in Wanganui, had to be given up, and that a large carrying trade was thus lost to the Railway Department; (3) whether, in order to renew such, trade, the Government will modify the tariff, and alter the mode of measurement to that formerly US Th! MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS, in reply, was understood to say that the Government were not aware that any arrangements were being made to float logs down the Wanganui River. The timber was floated down the river for a distance of 60 miles, and then was sent on to. Wanganui by rail. He had ascertained that some logs of a certain description of timber were at present carried on the railway at 2s 6d per 1000 ft, while white pine was carried at 2s per 1000 ft. This price was as low as could be entertained by the Railway Department. No new system had been introduced, and the only difference between the prices charged was in square and round timber. He could not hold out any hope of a modification of the tariff being made at present.

THE DISTRICT RAILWAYS PROPOSALS. The TREASURER was glad' to be able to announce that the Government had altered the resolution of which he had. given notice on this subject, and which he .should ask the House to consider on the following day. The resolution wbuld be amended with the leave of the House. Sir GEORGE GREY thought that the proceeding, as proposed, to alter the motion without notice, was slightly unusual. Mr SHRIMSKI pointed out that the present leader of the Opposition had frequently been permitted to alter resolutions by leave of the House. Mr BRYCE remarked that he had intended to have made a few remarks on the motion, which had been on the Order Paper for some days, and now he was told that this motion was to be substituted for something else. This was exceedingly inconvenient. The TREASURER thought that it was only a matter of courtesy to the Government to permit them to alter their motion. However, if any hon. gentleman objected to the amendment he would proceed with the original motion, and get some other hon. member to move an amendment. . , Sir GEORGE GREY would resist the amended motion without notice being given in the ordinary way. Mr BRYCE merely wanted to raise a question of parliamentary procedure. He would raise his point of order in a very few words. The matter of the District Railways had already been discussed in the House, and he now desired to refer to pariiamentary practice, which was laid down in order to prevent surprises. It was argued that a question was one thing, and a Bill another thing ; but this motion was really one and the same thing, and therefore could not be debated over and over again. The practice of Parliament went to show that a question should not he debated over and over again, as, if it were, a session would have no end. He took it, therefore, that the House having already discussed the subject, it was not competent for the House to re-open the subject again, notwithstanding that there was an amendment on the motion. The SPEAKER had given hi 3 best consideration to the subject. The House, transacted its business in two ways, viz., by Bill and motion. He thought that although the Government could not bring in a new Bill, the Government might introduce a motion dealing with the same matter. The PREMIER said that the late Government last session introduced a Bill which was thrown out hy the Legislative Council, but during the same session the Government introduced another Bill, in which the objectionable clause was embodied, and this second -Bill was passed by the Legislature. Mr ROLLESTON thought that the principle which must occur to hon. members, was, was the House endeavoring by a side wind to set aside the decision of the other branch of the Legislature. It seemed the course they were entering into was an invasion of the general rule that when a measure had been thrown out it should not he reintroduced the same session of Parliament. May was very distinct on the subject. The hon. gentleman quoted from May in support of his argument, the case cited being the matter of repealing the duty on paper, which was thrown out one session, but was passed during, the following session. There was another voice to be heard in the'matter, and that was the Governor s, who would not be authorised in permitting the. House to enter into contracts without the Legislative Council having a voice on the subject. He thought that the precedent would be a very dangerous one, and one that should not be allowed by the House. Major STEWARD pointed out a precedent, viz., the Bill for the abolition of the gold dU The TREASURER thought that it would have been better had the hon. member for Geraldine refrained from making his objection after the Speaker had given his ruling. He desired to point out that the Council had thrown out the Bill because they could not amend the Bill, and the Government had thought that it would he better to frame the resolution so that the Council might have no such excuse. He should like to show that the resolution did not pledge the House to the ratification of the matter at all this year. He could not accept the fact that, because the District Railways Bill had been thrown out, the subject could not be dealt with in another way this session. If the House insisted upon the motion being proceeded with as it appeared on the Order Paper, the Premier would move an amendment to it. He had desired to avoid this course, as it was cumbersome and inconvenient, hut the Government, of course, would how to the decision of the House. , Mr D. STEWART considered that the ruling of the Speaker was in accordance with the established rule in the Legislature of the United States. , . Mr MACANDREW read an extract of John Bright on the repeal of the paper duty precedent, which was in conformity with the ruling of the Speaker.

The House decided on the voices that the Treasurer should introduce the resolution in the amended form. The TREASURER moved. That this House will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, to consider the following resolution That the difficulties surrounding the railways constructed'under the District Railways Act, and. the hardships to which the ratepayers are subjected in connection there? with are such that this House considers the Government should seize a favorable opportunity to enter into agreements to acquire the said lines by lease and purchase ; such agreements to be subject to. the ratification, of Parliament, and to contain a provision that until Parliament has had an opportunity of giving such ratification, all proceedings against ratepayers shall he stopped.” WEST COAST SETTLEMENT RESERVES AMEND-

MENT BILL. Mr TE AO resumed the debate on the motion for the third reading, and moved its recommittal for the purpose of amending a clause-. . . , , After discussion, the motion was withdrawn, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. ROAD BOARDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion for the third reading, Mr ROLLESTON said that he felt assured that the Bill would he further amended in another place, and therefore he would not propose its recommittal. The Bill was read a third time and passed. LIFE ASSURANCE POLICIES BILL. The House went into committee on the further consideration of this Bill. The Bill was reported .with verbal amendments in clause 33, read a third time, and passed. RIVER BOARDS BILL. The PREMIER moved the second reading of this Bill, which was agreed to, the committal being made an order of the day for the following day. WELLINGTON COLLEGE RESERVES CONFIRMATION BILL. _ The debate on the motion for the second reading of this Bill was resumed by Mr SEDDON, who said that he would.offer no further opposition to the Bill, as a compromise had been arrived at, and hia objectj therefore, had been accomplished. Mr MACARTHUR also withdrew further opposition to the Bill, though he still protested against the injustice of taking reserves from municipalities. The motion for the second reading was agreed to. TIMBER FLOATING BILL. The MINISTER for JUSTICE, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that it was a consolidation Bill, and provided machinery. It provided for driving logs down streams, erecting booths, and also for allowing compensation to owners of land whose ground was entered upon by lumpers, &c. The Bill was read a second time, and its committal made an order of the day for the following day. . CODLIN-MOTH BILL. The PREMIER moved the secondjreading of this Bill, which provided for the destruction of imported apple's which were affected with this blight on their arrival, and also for the destruction of affected trees growing within the colony. The Bill was read a second . time, and committed. A new clause was inserted, giving the Governor in Council power to prohibit the importation of affected fruit or trees. The Bill was reported with amendments, read a third time, and passed. ELECTRIC LINES BILL. ' The House went into committee on this Bill. , .. The House adjourned at the usual dinner hour. EVENING SITTING. The Committee resumed at. 7.30 p.m. . The Bill was reported with unimportant amendments, read a third time, and passed. IMPOUNDING BILL. The House went into Committee on this Bill. On clause 5, Mr J. . McKenzie moved as an amendment . the insertion of the word “fenced” in the first line, between the words “ of ” and “ land,” the effect being that owners of land so fenced might impound trespassing cattle. Mr Hursthonse said that for years past a provincial statute had been in vogue in the Nelson district, by which owners of unfenced land could impound cattle, and recover damages for trespass. The Premier thought that he saw his way out of the difficulty. It was very clear that the clause would not apply to all parts of the colony, and he therefore would move that progress be reported and leave asked to sit again, with a view to enabling him to reconstruct the clause. Mr Macandrew moved that the Chairman leave the chair. He took this course as he believed that the clause, and indeed the Bill, was Quito remarkable. Mr Shephard hoped that the Bill would he dropped for this session. Mr Hursthouse had no faith in the Premier’s promise to amend the Local Government Kill, and therefore he hoped the Bill would be allowed to proceed. He should like to see districts exempted from which no petitions emanated. Mr Hobbs deprecated the idea of goldfield members hounding down the Bill, as they had no interest in it. Mr Fergus contended that the bers had quite as much interest in the Bui as had other hon. members. Mr Buchanan would agree to the motion for progress being reported, providing that the Bill would not be killed. The motion for reporting progress was agreed to, and leave was given to sit again on the next day. BEETROOT SUGAR BILL. The TREASURER, in moving the second reading of this Bill, remarked that the question was a most important one. To all intents ana purposes the cane sugar had been driven out by the beetroot industry. The imports of New Zealand amounted at the present time to L 500.000 of money. From the beet the residuum was exceedingly valuable for dairy operations, as well as for fattening cattle. In support of his argument on his motion for the second rparlin" the Treasurer read an extract from the Canterbury Times. . The beetroot industry in France, especially . in the southern portion of that country, was immense. It had been urged that the. high rate of labor in New Zealand would militate against the introduction of the beetroot industry into the colony but from the statement of a great authority—Mr George Graham, of Auckland—he did not think that high labor would prove a bar to the introduction of the beetroot as a saccharine producing root. Dr Hector had prepared a table by which he showed that whereas the average crop in Europe was twenty tons to the acre, in the colony it was twelve tons to the acre. He believed that Dr Hector, so far as the colony was concerned, had underrated the growing capacities of New Zealand. This also was the opinion of Dr. Curie, of Hangitikea, who spoke highly of the beetroot properties in the district in which he resided. With regard to the Waikato experiment, they showed that the average was 12’7-L per cent., the highest being 15 per cent, and the lowest 12-29 per cent. These results showed highly satisfactory facts during a period of •seven years. In the N apier district Mr Thomas Hannah had assured him that the

beetroot grew luxuriously, and all that was wanted to make the industry a success was technical knowledge and capital. He therefore thought he had shown that the beet could be grown with advantage not only in the North Island, but also in Canterbury. Alluding to the production of sorghum, he would say that Mr Justice Gillies spoke highly of it as a commercial product. It had been ascertained that the result would be highly satisfactory. The Bill provided that for 15 years no excise duty would be imposed upon tha sugar produced in the colony, and for the first 1000 tons of sugar produced in the colony there would be a bonus of Jd per lb. He could not help thinking that this was an undertaking which would obtain favor with all, and the expense of machinery required would be lessened from the fact that all the necessary machinery could be manufactured in Melbourne. He believed that the industry would attain vast proportions. He might say that beet and sorghum sugar wa3 now almost universally used in the United Kingdom and also in Europe, and as there was no policy involved in the project, and as to a certain extent the wheat-growing industry of the colony was languishing, he trusted that the House would agree to the second reading. Colonel TRIMBLE said that the cheaper the sugar the greater the number of industries which would be likely to be started. He referred to jam factories especially. In England there were no fewer than 12,000 persons employed in this industry. He thought that it would be far better to endeavor to make the price of sugar cheaper rather than attempt to raise the price. He saw no advantage in passing the Bill. The production would become greater than the consumption, but notwithstanding this the consequence would be that they would not be able to sell the colonial article so cheaply as the imported article. The industry meant that the few would reap the benefit to the: exclusion and to the loss of the many. . j Mr J. C. BROWN combatted the argument of the hon. member for Taranaki that the colonial sugar would be dearer than the imported article. Such an idea was an antiquated one, as he (Mr Brown) maintained that by manufacturing sugar the colonists would not only get a better article, but they would also employ a large number of operatives. Either by vote or influence he would encourage local industries and local products. Mr GILLIES, if ever he desired to speak strongly upon any one subject, it was upon the second reading of this Bill. Believing as he did that God helped those who helped themselves, he favored the present Bill. In the South they believed in this motto, as was shown by the starting of the woollen mills. No new duty would be imposed by the passing of the Bill, and the only special advantage extended to growers was that per lb bonus for the first 1000 tons should he given. At present there was per lb en sugar, and this duty it was proposed to retain. . The country had. been in a state of depression for a long time past, and it therefore behoved theni to start into some new path of industry. The wheat-growing industry was acknowledged to be languishing, and therefore any beetroot by which our farmers could produce more exportable articles, or by which they could reduce the cost of imported articles, should be encouraged. The beetroot-growing industry should be encouraged by every means within the power of the State. Much had been said relative to the matter of the cost of labor in producing the beetroot, but he considered that there was little fear on that score. The beetroot might be stored, in the face of a dear labor market, for a period of twelve months without at all affecting the virtue of the root. The time had arrived when the Legislature should consider the subject as embodied in the Bill. He would support the second reading of the Bill, Mr GRIGG opposed the Bill, as he considered that it would be a great misapplication both of capital and labor if the industry were introduced. Let them subdue the wilderness before they endeavored to introduce capitalists, for to imagine that they could hope to grow beet root to advantage at present was absurd. The beet would impoverish the soil also to an alarming extent, and this, added to the increased cost of labor, would make the industry quite unprofitable, and added to this was the fact that they could import their sugar far cheaper than they could grow it. In Queens land the sugar-growers had to employ coolie labor in order to make the industry profitable, and he would ask how would our laborers like to compete with labor of this description. Mr LANCE had had considerable experience in the growing of beetroot, and had seen a very small village grow up into a large town by the growth and manufacture of beetroot. He should support the Bill. Mr MENTEATH thought that the Bill,_ if passed, would have the effect of rather injuring local industries than of promoting or encouraging them, as the Bill would tend in the direction of taking capital from local industries. Then, again, he considered that a large number of persons would be introduced to work the industry who would after a time prove to be a clog to the progress of the colony. He regretted that no comparative statistics as to the growth of the beetroot industry in Fiji and other countries had been submitted hy the Treasurer. What, he asked, had been the effect of coddling industries in America ’—protection, so called. Why, it had had the effect of driving that country's mercantile marine from the seas of the universe. If they supported the beetroot industry by protection they would have every other industry calling out for protection. The colony had several industries at present, and these would have to pay for the protection of the beetroot people. He trusted the Bill would not pass. Mr BUCHANAN would hail the advent of the Bill, if all the bright pictures of its promoters could be fulfilled, with the greatest of pleasure, and if, by the introduction of this Bill, they could employ their surplus town population, he should be glad to support the measure. Referring to the remarks of Dr. Curie, of Rangitikei, he said that he paid little attention to them, as that gentleman was not an authority on agricultural matters. He was satisfied that the question of labor was a sufficient bar to the successful carrying on of the beetroot sugar industry in this colony. It was a most significant fact that America had never seen their way to grow the beet for the manufacture of sugar, and the reason was that the price of labor was a practical bar to carrying on the industry. He was glad to see that the hon. the Treasurer had steered clear of the vexed question of freetrade and protection, as he believed that a protective policy would prove highly detrimental to the interests of the colony. °lf he could see that the Bill was likely to prove advantageous to the people of New Zealand, be would have great pleasure in supporting the measure, but as his convictions ran in a contrary direction he should oppose the second reading. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND regretted the narrow-minded view that many hon. members had taken with regard to the Bill, and he had great pleasure in supporting the Bill, as he believed that the measure would have the effect of creating a great and. new industry. He regretted that other industries had not been included ip the Bill. In America no less a sum than L 13,000,000 had last year been pro-

duced from sorghum. It was absurd to object that the Custom’s revenue would lose L 4600 per annum by the Bill if it became law. He might say that he .set a quantity of land with sorghum, and the result was L 32 10s per acre, including labor ; and so with beetroot. He believed that the question of labor was but a very small item in the matter of producing sugar. He was convinced that 1000 small farmers would be able to earn a good living by the growing of beet and sorghum. The question of labor was nothing, as the climate of New Zealand was the very climate in which to grow beet and sorghum, which did not require a tropical climate. Before very long it would be seen that the colony would require a Minister for sugar. (Laughter.) He felt convinced that the time had arrived when they should grow a large number of articles besides beetr—such as tea. These industries would very speedily double the population, and this meant a decrease in the burden of taxation. He would support the Bill. Mr HTJRSTHOUSE would support the Bill, but he hoped that in Committee the Bill would be altered. He favored the giving of bonuses to new industries, but he. thought that the Bill went too far in the direction indicated. He quite believed that the beetroot would gain the victory over sugar cane. Germany within her own boundaries produced more sugar from beetroot than England consumed altogether. But still he doubted whether New Zealand would be able to produce sugar from the beetroot so as to make it pay. To make this a happy and prosperous country they must start local industries, and they should direct their attention to making a small piece of land afford the colonists a fair living, and if they failed in this the country would not be worth living in. But he failed to see how the sugar beetroot would pay for years to come in this colony. However, if the industry was likely to prove remunerative the Bill would have his support. Mr COWAN expressed his intention of supporting the Bill, as he believed that the starting of the industry would have a highly beneficial effect towards fostering the industries of the country. Dr. NEWMAN pointed out that the Bill would have the effect of imposing still further burdens upon the people. Since the present Parliament had been sitting sugar had gone down gd per lb, and had our farmers been engaged in the beetroot industry they would have lost that amount. The idea that the farmers would gain per lb by the protection which was sought to be extended to them was a delusion, as they would inevitably find to their cost. India, China, and Fiji were all producing sugar at a very low cost, and as the freight hither from those places wa3 exceedingly small, he believed that the growing of beet in this colony would be a mistake. If he thought for a moment that the colony would benefit by the industry he would be exceedingly glad to support the measure, but as it was he should oppose the second reading. Mr BOSS opposed the Bill, although he was in favor of giving liberal bouuses to establishing local industries. If the Bill were passed, the cost to the colony would be L 74,630. He objected to the colony being pledged to pay a sum of L4OOO per annum for every 1000 tons of sugar per annum. Mr LAKE objected to giving such a gigantic bonus to the beetroot industry as was provided for by the Bill. He should oppose the Bill. Mr MONTGOMERY considered that there were many good points and very many bad points in the Bill. He. would support the second reading of the Bill, as he believed in fostering local industries, more especially as he did not object to withholding an excise duty on certain articles for a time. But as he objected to the fourth clause, he should oppose the third reading of the Bill, Mr MOSS pointed out that in France large bonuses were given for the production of sugar and more especially for sugar grown for export. England put up with this because she got her sugar cheaper than she otherwise would, but if her farmers lost by these bonuses she would not have put up with it. Every nation in its early career had depended upon protection. In fact, .no country had ever got along without protection. Would the industry pay, was the question to be asked, the temporary sacrifice being nothing comparatively with the advantages the colony would gain by growing sugar for its own consumption. By it the products would be cheapened in. time, and, in the meantime, a market would be opened up for surplus labor. He should support the Bfll, believing as he did that the very life of a new country depended upon the introduction of new indus* tries.

Mr WAKEFIELD twitted some hon. members who had started their speeches with saying that they were thorough protectionists, but ended by saying they opposed the Bill because its fourth clause contained protectionist principles. He (Mr Wakefield) was a freetrader, and as such he opposed the Bill, which had been brought forward as a protectionist measure in its most insidious, and, therefore, in its most dangerous form. Since 1880 he might say that a bonus was offered by the colony for the first 1000 tons of beetroot sugar, and yet no one had come forward to claim the bonus. He hoped the colony would not be burdened with the incubus of protection by adopting a little Bill such as the present one was. Let the Government come boldly forward and declare that their policy was a protective one. He greatly feared that the chief charm of the Bill was that it was protective, for he believed that there were thousands of persons who were opposed to protection who would be beguiled into adopting, innocently enough, a protective policy by the attraction of a bonus. He did not think that L4OOO would be too large a sum to pay for the first 1000 tons of colonial grown beet sugar, but he did object to the introduction of protection under the guise of bonuses. He said this as. he felt convinced that every other industry in the colony would put forward their claims to be protected if the beetroot industry was allowed. Mr JOYCE maintained that if protective duties were taken away from industries they would perish. With regard to the argument of dear labor, he would say that the farmers of this colony could even export wheat. Had Parliament seven years ago extended protection to the beet industry, the present depression existing in the colony would not now exist. France at the present day imposed an excise duty of id per lb on sugar imported, and they were wise in so doing. He should support the Bill. Mr W. WHITE would be prepared to give some support to the beetroot sugar industry, but he objected to the fifteen years’ protective duty, preferring, as he did, to giving a larger bonus instead. He would vote for the second reading of the Bill, reserving to himself the right of voting for the exclusion of the fourth clause; and if this were not agreed to, he should oppose the third reading. Mr W. C. SMITH, as a freetrader, would oppose the fourth clause in the Bill. Mr HATCH expressed his intention of supporting the Bill, although he considered it was a premature one. The PREMIER was glad to see that there ■was a disposition to encourage agricultura

projects in the colony, but he regretted that some hon. members had taken somewhat a too narrow view of the [matter so far as the Bill was concerned. To believe some hon. members, the State should do nothing. Even roadmaking would be wrong, the construction of railways would be wrong, and even the support of charitable institutions would be wrong. Much had been said of New South Wales being a free trade colony. Why, the fact was that they imposed fd a lb on sugar. He should like to remind the hon. member for Selwyn that the system of giving bonuses for colonial industries was in vogue long before that hon. member ever occupied a seat in the House. The Premier generally replied to the speeches of hon. members who had spoken against the Bill. The motion for the second reading was agreed to on the voices. The House adjourned at 1.40 a.m.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 23. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. BILL INTRODUCED. The- Fisheries Couservation Act, 1884 was introduced, and read a first time. ANIMALS PROTECTION ACT, ISBO, AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was agreed to without amendment in Committee, and reported. It was then read a third time and passed. SHEEP ACT, 187 S, AMENDMENT BILL. The Sheep Act, IS7B, Amendment Bill was agreed to in Committee, and reported. It was then read a third time and passed. FIRST READINGS. The Waikato Confiscated Lands Bill, the Draininge and Mines Bill, the Supreme Court Registrar (Taranaki). Empowering Bill, the Government Insurance Association Bill, and Public Works Bill were introduced from the House of Representatives and read a first time. " EAST AND WEST COAST (MIDDLE ISLAND) AND NELSON RAILWAY AND RAILWAYS CONSTRUCTION BILL. Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, referred to the fact that threats of intimidation had been held ■ out in a previous debate. An hon. gentleman sitting in the Council Chamber had yesterday stopped him in the street, and informed him that he would oppose every measure brought in by the Government, because a petition he had presented to the Governor, asking to be relieved of a fine had not been favorably entertained. It might be some satisfaction to that hon. gentleman to know that the Government had decided not to remit the fine. (Laughter.) He denied the statement that the Government had threatened to abandon certain other Bills if the District Railways Bill were not agreed to. Referring to the Bill, the Colonial Secretary contended that the work authorised by it was part of the original trunk scheme devised for the colony. He pointed out that the Bill was not a “ money bill,” and suggested, therefore, that the Council should allow the second reading to be agreed to, since the measure could be amended in Committee. He might be pardoned for suggesting that another branch of the. Legislature held very strong views on the subject, and he hoped, therefore, that the Council would paS3 the Bill in deference to this feeling. Hon. Mr MILLER said this Bill was such a speculative measure that he was surprised to see it introduced by two gentlemen of such circumspect character as the representatives in the Chamber of the Government. He argued that the work proposed to be executed bristled with difficulties; and thought that there was not land enough in the locality to supply the grant to be made. Thus advantage would have to be taken of the power given by the Bill to take land from other places. Another objection he urged against the Bill was that they might give away a rich goldfield, and have to buy it back at an enormous expense. (Colonel Brett : “ And a very good thing too.”) Hon. Mr Miller : “And a very good thing too ?’’ (Colonel Brett : “Yes; for the company.”) (Laughter.) Hon. Mr Miller continuing, said he would rather see the Government give the company a stated sum in cash than make such indefinite concessions as were proposed. The hon gentleman referred to the report of a commission oh the matter, as showing the difficulties to b.e met with. The country, he ventured to say, would find, when it took this line over, that a large expenditure for repairs would be needed. No man could show that this railway would pay for a long time to come, and it was the duty of the Council to pause and consider its position before committing itself. The Council represented the whole of the colony, and he contended that it behoved them to take a firm stand and resist the measure, as imposing a burden which the colony could not bear. It appeared that the Legislature -were too ready to submit to any financial dictatorship that might spring up, and such financial dictatorship was now influencing the expenditure of the colony. Those whose homes were established in the colony would know what it was to make these railways twenty years too soon. In'conclusion, the hon. gentleman moved that the Bill be read that day six months. Hon. Sir G. S. WHITMORE said the last speaker was not alone in his desire to maintain the independence of this Chamber. He had supported the project when it was first introduced ; but the Bill now before them was not that which had originally been brought before the country. Heshould support the secondreading, not only in deference to the wishes of another branch of the Legislature, but he thought it should be clearly stipulated that the colony would have no share whatever in the undertaking (Hear, hear.) He suggested however that the power to choose land elsewhere should be eliminated from the Bill ; and there were other amendments needed. The last speiker had suggested that he would rather see cash given as a bonus; but that was one of those things which they would rather do if it were possible. It was not possible, however. He should support the Bill, reserving to himself the right to offer amendment in the Bill. Hon. Mr WATERHOUSE, referring to the remarks of the Colonial Secretary in respect to intimidation, said that private conversations should not, evidently, be understood in the same sense as entertained by that gentleman. As an illustration of this, Mr Waterhouse said that, a few evenings ago, Hon. Mr Reynolds accosted him, and flourishing his fist in front of his (Mr Waterhouse’s) face, said (referring to the District Railways Bill) : “ I tell you what it is : we’ll make you swallow that Bill, whether you like it or not.” He knew, however, that nothing was really meant by that threat, and that the flourishing of the fist was merely an oratorical flourish. In respect to Mr Pharazyn, that lion, gentleman had since expressed the opinion that the Bill in its present shape might be supported. Referring to the Bill, Mr Waterhouse said he should support the second reading with a view to getting it modified in committee. He pointed out that under clause 5, which provided for the Government taking the work over and handing a certain percentage of the receipts to the company, the colony might be committed to an expenditure of L 40,000 a year, and he should move in committee the erasure of that clause. Hon. Dr. GRACE alluded to the same clause, remarking that he could not accept &d>- Bill which contained such a clause ; and

he must know, before he recorded his vote, whether or not it was proposed to strike that clause out.

Hon. Captain FRASER would vote for the second reading, reserving the right to object to the sth clause on the third reading, if it were retained through the intervening stages. Hon. Mr RICHMOND pointed out that no proportion was established in the Bill between the. debenture capital and the subscribed capital. He thought it the duty of the Council, as an honorable body, not to sanction any work that was not calculated to profit anyone but the moneyed class. Hon. Mr REEVES warmly supported the Bill, reminding Mr Miller that he was not wont to take such a lugubrious view of public ■works some years ago. ; He eontended that all these arguments had been thrashed out when the public works and immigration policy was introduced many years ago, but they found to-day that the colony had steadily progressed onward since the commencement of that policy. The Council, at 5 p.m., adjourned till 7.30, Mr Reeves being still in possession of the floor.

On resuming at 7.30 p.m., Hon. Mr REEVES, continuing his remarks, said that capital and labor were wanted in the colony, and how could they better introduce them than by the system of such Bills as that now before the Council ? He was surprised to find that hon. members of this Council, with few exceptions, received this measure with alarm, for he looked upon it in a totally different light. He asked the Council, in conclusion, to read the Bill a second time, and not to strangle it in Committee hereafter. Hon. Dr POLLEN, while congratulating the Council on the accession to its numbers of the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, regretted that that hon. gentleman, as a debutant, had not a better theme. Referring to. the motion before the Council, Dr Pollen said he could not support the Bill, one of his reasons being that the line would not pay, at any rate for some time to come. He thought, too, that the colony was asked to make too great a sacrifice. If the colony or the Legislature were asked to spend two millions on this line, the answer would be an emphatic negative from both ; and the Legislature, he pointed out, would have great advantages in its machinery, facility for getting cheap money, &c. They must remember that the land of the colony was already pledged to. the public creditor, and therefore in dealing with it in this way they would be no better than- the fraudulent trustee. Certain hon. gentlemen had said that they would not oppose the Bill if a certain clause were struck out, but that clause was the most important one in the measure. Erase it, and nothing but a shadow would be left. He should record his vote against the Bill. Hon. Mr BARNICOAT supported the Bill, which appeared to him simply a proposal to give a certain amount of land to those who chose to take it in return for the construction of a most important work. The work would cost the colony nothing, and they had a superabundance of land, therefore he supported the motion. Hon. Mr OLIVER said the making of this line had for some time past been a matter of extreme difficulty, and if any good plan to form the railway were submitted he would support it without hesitation. He did not think, however, that the present proposal was a good one :in the first place because he did not agree with the land being taken here, there, and everywhere, to pay for this line. He did not believe that any sane person, knowing the actual value of the land proposed to be given, would consent to form the line on the terms offered by this Bill. The amount, of land required, too, could not be obtained in the locality. He pointed out that harbors were to be made on the West Coast, and it was an established fact that railways could not compete with water carriage. In respect to mineral traffic, English experience in the working of railways showed that coal traffic was not a profitable one. Another objection to the Bill was that it did not really represent a continuation of the trunk system. He pointed out the inconsistency of the head of the present Government, who, having identified himself with State control of the land, now proposed to alienate the largest block ever alienated in the colony. He left that point to the representatives of the Government to explain. He should vote against the Bill.

Hon. Mr .WILSON said that after careful consideration, he found that the Bill was not only one which he could not support, but one which he must offer all possible objection to. He had strong ideas that no land ought to be given away in large blocks, and if the amount proposed to be given were given to this corporation, that body would obtain an undue influence. He characterised clause 5 as “so utterly preposterous that men, the representatives of the Government, would hardly have the assurance to press it.” As he understood the Bth clause, it provided that if they could not find the requisite amount of land adjoining the line they could select it from anywhere else in the colony they might think fit. (The Colonial Secretary : “No, no.”) Mr Wilson said he read it that way, but he was glad to hear it otherwise interpreted. Another defect in the Bill was that there was no provision to compel the company to carry the work out. What provision was there, either to guarantee the safety of the lenders of the money. He objected to the public credit being thus endangered. In what shape did the Bill come to them ? There were no plans, no information, nothing but a most vague Bill, and if they looked at information previously afforded by Royal Commission, they found that it had been estimated that the line would not pay for at least ten years. He argued that the work was a most speculative and spendthrift one, and the manner in which it was to be carried out was still worse. He thought it would be a very inadvisable thing to pass a measure holding out inducements to people to invest money in a speculation which no person in the colony would risk a sixpence in. Mr CHAMBERLIN said he should criticise the Bill as a policy Bill, having an assurance from the Colonial Secretary that it was such. He disapproved of this, as well as of other Bills introduced and to be introduced by the Government, involving reckless schemes which must in the end result in insolvency. He opposed the Bill also because it dealt with lands which should be dealt with in the future, and, in addition, he believed that a syndicate was already cut and dried which was in possession of knowledge of existing mines. He criticised at some length the policy of the Government, arguing that although certain lines should be made in order to keep faith with promises made, it would be unwise to make them hastily. He had formed the opinion that to make this railway would be to see whether it would be cheaper to take coal over a hill than by water, and believed that if it were passed, it would shake the. foundations of society and interfere with civilisation. At this juncture the debate was adjourned till the next day, on the motion of the Hon. Mr McLEAN. COMMITTALS. The following Bills were agreed to in committee : —Employment of Females Act, ISSI, Amendment Bill ; City of Dunedin Leasing Powers Bill; Codlin Moth Bill; Kowai

Domain Board . Empowering Bill; and the Thames Recreation Reserve Sale Bill. They were, then reported, the Kowai Domain Board Empowering Act and the Thames Recreation Reserve Sale Bill being read a third time and passed. - m third reading. .T- e I T? School Site Bill was read a a third time and passed. The Council then (10.10) rose. mu FRIDAY, OCTOBER 24. The Council met at 2.30. REPORTS. Several reports of Select Committees were presented and read. . MOTIONS BY NOTICE. Hon. Captain BAILLIE moved, That the following resolution, reported from the Standing Orders Committee, be agreed to, viz. That local Bills introduced as measures or Government policy be exempted from the necessity of previous notification, and that such Bills be referred to a select committee after the second reading. Hon. Mr HART hoped the Council would not pass the motion, pointing out that by such a decision the Government would, by possessing a power to bring in any local Bill, be able to inflict severe injustice. Hon. Mr BUCKLEY moved, That all the words after “notification” be struck out. Agreed to. wor <3s, “ and of reference to the Local Bill Committee,” were also added on the motion of the COLONIAL SECRETARY, and . the motion, as amended, was put and carried. Hon. Mr MANTELL moved, That there be laid upon the table a list of all Crown grants issued under the third clause of the South Island Native Reserves Act, 1883. Motion agreed to. . FIRST READINGS. “he following Bills were introduced from the Lower House and- read a first time :—• School Committees Election Bill; False Notice of Births, Marriages, and Deaths Bill; Printers’ and Newspapers Registration Bill: and Hokitika Steam Tug Bill. workmen’s wages bill. This Bill was recommitted, and agreed to witn amendments. It was then reported, and the committal set down for Tuesday next. WEST HARBOR BOROUGH EMPOWERING BILL. Ihe second reading of this Bill was moved by Hon. Captain FRASER. Hon. Mr WATERHOUSE likened the Legislature to an elephant’s trunk, which could pick up a needle or- crush a cannon; nothing was too large for them to borrow, nothing too small. : They assented with alacrity to the borrowing of millions, and it seemed, according to this Bill, that L 847 9s 6d was not too small a sum for them to consider as a borrowing proposal He suggested that the corporation might have settled the matter without referring it to the Legislature. Motion agreed to. GISBORNE HARBOR BILL. This Bill was recommitted, on the motion of Sir G. S. WHITMORE, and certain amendments made. The Bill, having been reported, was read a third time aiid passed. FISHERIES CONSERVATION BILL. In moving the second reading of this Bill, Hon. Mr REYNOLDS said the measure was intended to repair many defects in the present laws pertaining to fisheries. Motion agreed to. JUSTICES OF THE PEACE ACT, 18S2, AMENDMENT BILL. A technical amendment made in this Bill by His Excellency the Governor was agreed to, WAIKATO CONFISCATED LAND BILL. On the motion of the COLONIAL SEORETARY, this Bill was read a second time. SUPREME COURT REGISTRAR (TARANAKI) EMPOWERING BILL. This Bill was read a second time oh the motion of the COLONIAL SECRETARY. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed : —Employment of Females Act, ISSI Amendment Bill; City of Dunedin Leasing Powers Bill ; Codlin Moth Bill. EAST AND WEST COAST (MIDDLE ISLAND) AND NELSON RAILWAY AND RAILWAYS CONSTRUCTION BILL: Horn G. McLEAN resumed the debate on this Bill. Such a measure, he considered, should. not find its way to the statute book. He pointed to the District Railways Construction Bill as an example of the failure of such legislation as this, and while he did not seek to evade his responsibility in connection with the making of that Act, he thought . its results showed how vain it was for the Legislature passing a measure which would only be a repetition of that he had alluded to. He strongly condemned the proposals of the Bill as to making the line, arguing that a syndicate was “ a body of men clubbed together to enrich themselves at the expense of the many.” Such a body would issue.a prospectus, perhaps, founded upon, or teeming with extracts from the speeches in the Lower House, of Canterbury members. People would be told that there were no terrible hilltops on the line; all was a dead level. That was the way the syndicate would lie worked, and the unwary taken in. He contended that the line was not needed now, that it was twenty years too soon, and that even if it were made, it would not pay. On one side there was for seventeen miles a gradient of one in fifty, and through traffic from the other side would not be very great. He was not one of those who would condemn a railway because there was no immediate prospect of it paying; but there was a wider and broader view to be taken of the matter. If the work was such a necessary one, why should not the colony take it up ? They might depend upon it that they would have at a future date if this Bill were passed, to take over the work at an immense loss. It was a pity, he thought, that the colony had not abetter system cf investigatingproposed lines, such as that obtaining in England. As it was now, there were plenty of lines in an unfinished state which should be completed before lines like this were undertaken. He urged the Council, in conclusion, to take the Bill on its merits, regardless of party influence or political pressure. The Council rose at 5.20. EVENING SITTING. On resuming at 7.30 the debate was continued; by Hon. Mr LAHMANN, who said it could not be denied that the colony was pledged to this very work, which was part of the long contemplated trunk line of the colony; and now, after many unsuccessful attempts by different Governments, they had found a scheme which would enable them to complete the work and obtain all the benefits accruing from it without involving the colony in any expense. In reference to the report of the Royal Commission which had been quoted as an argument against the Bill, he said that that report had been drawn up carelessly. (Hon. Mr Miller : “ What about the evidence ?”) That was the very portion of the report to which he had taken exception. It had been taken in a most objectionable manner. He contended that the construction of the line would have a beneficial effect on the whole colony. Referring to the speech of the Hon. Mr Oliver, he reminded that gentleman that the policy of “keeping it steadily in view, ” which he had observed when in office, would no longer he sufficient for the people.

k°P- e(^ Council would look upon the matter in the same light as that of hon/ gentlemen who had expressed their intention to supfh” Bnfiro^S," 80 ' the Bm - “ d sponsibility of the evil that would of necessity resuit from the passing of the Act. 7 Hon. Mr PEACOCK could not understand the arguments of hon. gentlemen to the effect that the Council was sanctioning decention No syndicate, he argued, would bf such foolsas to take up a contract without having a report prepared for them. Indeed, he understood that they were having a report prepared now. He should support the Bill, with the exception of clause 5, which he would endeavor to get expunged. it. JOHNSTON" opposed tbe

Hon. Mr ACLAND supported the second reading, but would endeavor to get it amended m Committee.

Hon. Mr VYIGLEY expressed a similar intention.

Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY in reply, expresfeed regret that the Hon. Mr Hart should have opposed a Bill which would not impose any burden on the colony. He argued that it was clearly shown in the Bill that the Government intended to have nothing whatever to do with the construction of the line. He accused the Hon. Mr Miller of selfishness in connection with this Bill, and said that through.- - the whole of that gentleman’s and Mr Oliver’s speech ran the one consideration—Westport Harbor. As to the suggestion that the Government should construct the line with borrowed money, he did not believe that such a proposal would be entertained by this Council for one G e could understand the objection to the sth clause, but that was a matter to be considered in committee. He urged that the work was of great colonial importance, and one which the outside public were prepared to assist in, and he hoped that the good sense o£ the Council would lead it to pass the Bill. On division, the motion that the Bill be now read a second time was carried. Ayes, 18 ; noes, 13.

The Bill was ordered to be comniiHs, fl on Monday,

TRUSTEES AND EXECUTORS COMPANIES SHARE-

HOLDERS LIABILITY BILL. The adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill was resumed. After a short discussion the motion for the second reading was carried.

The Council then (9.45) rose.

MONDAY, OCTOBER 27. The Council met at 2.30. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Trustees, Executors, and Agency Company Act, 1882, Amendment Bill, 18S4, wasread a third time and passed. EAST AND WEST COAST (MIDDLE ISLAND) AND NELSON RAILWAY AND RAILWAYS CONSTRUCTION ACT. The Council went into committee on thisBill. In clause 4, authority to construct railway, Hon. Mr Richmond moved that the words “ by the Arthur Pass route ” be struck out. Hon. Mr Oliver suggested that the hon. gentleman moving the amendment should [ move to substitute for the words proposed tobe struck out those which were in the Bitl when it was originally introduced—viz., “ (by)such route as the Governor in Council shall determine.” Hon. Colonial Secretary said he offered no objection to the amendment, which he considered a very fair one. He recommended the Council to adopt it. Hon. Colonel Whitmore suggested that theclause under discussion should be postponed. Hon. Mr Reeves hoped that the clause would not be postponed, pointing out that the time was short, and if hon. members were not acquainted with the whole circumstances of the case, and the merits of the rival, routes, it was their own fault. The motion to strike out the words was carried, and the words “by such route as the Governor in Council shall determine ” substituted. On clause 5, Governor may contract to take over and work a railway in consideration of receiving percentage of proceeds, Hon. Mr Waterhouse moved that the clause be expunged. A division was called for on the question that the clause stand part of the Bill, but the Colonial Secretary, before the numbers weretaken, suggested that the clause should be postponed. This, however, was ruled out of order, and the division resulted as follows: Ayes, 10; noes, 23. The clause was therefore struck out. On clause 6, Governor and company may have running powers over each other’s lines, the words ‘ ‘ provided that no such agreement shall be for a period of more than one year ” were inserted on motion of Hon. Mr Waterhouse. Hon. Dr Grace moved that clause 17, debenture holder not to sell, or apply for order to sell, without first giving notice tu the Governor, be struck out. The amendment, however, was subsequently withdrawn. Atthis' stage the Council adjourned till 7.30. On resuming the Committee agreed to the Bill with a few verbal amendments. It was then reported and ordered to be recommitted. DESTITUTE PERSONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was received from the House of Representatives and read a first time. POSTPONEMENTS. The following Bills, set down for second readings, were postponed till the following day : —Greymouth Harbor Board Bill, Westport Harbor Board Bill, New Zealand Government Insurance Association Bill. DRAINAGE OF MINES BILL. The second reading of this measure was. moved by Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY and agreed to. PUBLIC WORKS ACT, ISB2, AMENDMENT BILLET Hon. COLONxAL SECRETARY moved the second reading of this Bill. Agreed to. FISHERIES CONSERVATION BILL. This Bill was considered in committee .and agreed to. It was reported and read a third time and passed. WAIKATO CONFISCATED LAND BILL. This Bill was considered in committee and agreed to, and having been reported withoutamendments, was read a third time and passed. SUPREME COURT REGISTRAR (TARANAKI) EMPOWERING BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee, and the third reading set down for the following day. The Council then (5.20) adjourned. TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28. The Council met at 2.30. NEW MEMBER. A message was received from His Excellency the Governor, stating that he. had been pleased to recall to the Council Mr G. Buckley, who had forfeited his seat through absence for two sessions. Mr Buckley then, having made the usual affirmation, took his seat in the chamber. MOTIONS. The following motions were agreed to : Hon Sir G. S. WHITMORE, That leave of absence be granted to the Hon. Mr Robinson for one week. Hon Mr WATERHOUSE, that he have leave to introduce a Bill intituled “An Act to provide for the Punishment of Breaches of Trust in certain cases.”

Hon. G. R. JOHNSON, That the report of the Petitions Committee upon the petition of W. H. Tucker be referred to the Minister of •Justice. : 2,-EW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION BILL. Hon. Mr BUCKLEY, in moving the second areading of this Bill, argued that it must be •evident that the Government of the colony ■were unable to carry on an insurance business <eo successfully as a board could conduct such a business. . , , . , ~ Hon. Mr McLEAN was glad to note the introduction of proposals to place the insurance department on a more satisfactory footing and he thought that the measure now brought in would be a good one if several amendments We Ho“ a Mr m WATERHOUSE saM he.should support the second reading of the Hill,, because lie thought it was a step in the right direction. He did not think, however, went far enough. He held the opinion that State dealing in insurance had been carried too far in this colony. He objected to the Bill, too,, on -several other grounds, instancing the provision that the board should be. presided over by the -Colonial Treasurer as objectionable. He suggested that officer could better fill the chairmanship of the board than the ControllerGeneral, and he should also move to.the effect that the department be placed on an independG. S. WHITMORE considered the Colonial Insurance Department a most anomalous institution. He pointed out the degradation attached to the Government by its •officers stopping people as they got out of trains and wanting to take their lives.. He congratulated the Government on bringing in such a measure as this, because the system of management at present obtaining was a most -unsatisfactory one. , _ , , Hon. Mr PEACOCK asked the Speaker’s ruling as to whether the Bill was a private or a Pl TheHon. the SPEAKER replied that he could not look upon the Bill as a private one. Hon. Dr GRACE supported the Bill, arguing that in order to make the business of the Insurance Department a success, it was necessary to entirely disassociate it from the Government. He questioned whether the power to carry on business outside the colony was not latent in the Act. Hon. Mr BONAR supported the Bill. He could not, however, agree with those, hon. gentlemen who had advocated separatiou if they proposed to remove the Government gU Hon. tee COLONIAL SECRETARY, in reply, ridiculed the idea that the Act allowed an extension of business outside the colony. Alluding to the connection of the Colonial Treasurer with the board, he contended that if the Government had to guarantee funds.it should be represented by a Minister of the Crown. , , . , The second reading was then agreed, to, And the committal set down for the following day. FIRST READINGS. The following Bills were introduced from the House of Representatives, and read a first time:—Police Offences Bill, and Bankruptcy Act Amendment Bill. . . EAST AND WEST COAST (MIDDLE ISLAND) AND NELSON RAILWAY AND RAILWAYS CONSTRUCOn the question that this Bill be recommitted, Hen. Mr McLEaN suggested that the Government should inform the Council of the exact amount of land available ntteen miles on each side of the proposed line. The Bill, having been slightly amended, was reported, read a third time, and passed, GREYMOUTH HARBOR BOARD BILL. The second reading of this JBiy-was moved bv the Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY, who fully explained the provisions of the measure. He pointed out that the objects of the Bill were similar to those of the Westport Harbor Board Bill. , Hon. Dr POLLEN said that if this Bill had been referred to the Local Bills Committee, as a local Bill, the Council would have been placed in possession of much useful information. He considered that the Council should be informed what the resources of the Greymouth Harbor Board were, in view of the large borrowing powers to he given to the district, Hon; G. McLEAN would rather have seen a sum placed on the Estimates for this work, since the Government could have carried it out much cheaper than could the board. He should not, however, object to the second read“feon. Mr WATERHOUSE agreed that the colony should do all in its power to develop the mines of the West Coast; but the Council should carefully consider any step it took in this direction. Admitted that there was coal enough on the West Coast to supply the colony for years, was it advisable that they should open up both ports at once ? They should nave the two districts cutting each other’s, throats. If they could get all the coal required from Greymouth, why construct large harbor works at Westport ? or vice versa. The export trade might be urged ; but that was a delusion and a snare, for they could not compete, with Australian export trade, Australia having advantage by virtue of its position, and if there were an export trade, Greymouth was quite equal to the supply of it. He should support,, therefore, the Greymouth Harbor Board Bill, and oppose the Westport Bill. Hon. C ATTAIN ERASER urged the establishment of a central gaol at Westport, the convicts to develop the mines. He hoped the House would pass both Bills. Hon. Sir G. S. WHITMORE strongly supported the arguments of the Hon. Mr Waterhouse, pointing out the absurdity of spending L 600.000 if they could get similar benefits for LIOO.COO. They had already voted large sums to this locality, and yet it had been said that the North Island was, through its representatives, resisting works in the South .Lsland. He pointed out that, according to the Public the Works Statement, the amount spent in North Island was over five millions, while in the South Island over ten millions had been expended. Now they were asked, not merely to grant money in a large sum to a South Island speculation, but they were actually asked to vote a duplicate work involving an additional expenditure of L 500.000. He had never before made general comparisons such as this, but he claimed that, when the Premier stood up and made such a statement as he had made the other he had a perfect right to stand up and’ deny the assertion that the North Island members were resisting the progress of works in tbe other island. . , , ~ Hon. Mr REYNOLDS, replying to the arguments of the Hon. Mr Waterhouse said the Greymouth coal was the best gas coal in the known world, and 8s per ton would be paid for it over and above the price paid for Newcastle coal. That would show that could compete with Australia. I hey could not do this, however, until they got good harbors. He was interested in the development of the mines himself ; but he had onlybeen so lately, and many years ago he had proposed that L500,C09 be expended on these districts. He pointed out that the West Coast had contributed to the Customs rei enue over a million. ~ The hon. gentleman was speaking when tne Council adjourned at 5.

The Council resumed at 7.30, Hon. Mi REYNOLDS continuing his remarks. He auoted several extracts to support his arguments <in favor of the Bill, confining lnmself almost exclusively to the Westport proposal. Hon. Mr BONAR thought it would be a great mistake to stop short at one port instead of effecting improvements to both. Hon. Mr CHAMBERLIN supported Hon. Mr Waterhouse in his view of the two Bills. Hon. Mr RICHMOND considered that if there were any works which they might safely support in the present state of the colony, those involved in these two Bills were certainly those which might be cheerfully agreed to. lie hoped that both Bills would be passed. At th® same time tie expressed regret tliat the G-overn-ment had not adopted the works. Hon. G. R. JOHNSON supported the Bill, expressing regret that _ the Government had hot taken the works up itself. ‘ Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY having briefly replied, the second-reading .of the Bill was agreed'to/ ■ - .-*• 3 . WESTPORT HARBOR BOARD - BILL Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY/-moved the second reading of. this Bi 11, _e xplaining that - it was identical in principle with the Bill im-mediately-previously under discussion/ ’ Hon.’- Mr-RIOHMOND supported the Bill.' In reference to the export.trade,’he-hadAt on _ indisputable^‘authority that negotiations had' been opened with the Westport Coal Company to supply coal for Yictoria at an advance price of 5s on that paid for Newcastle coal. Hon. Mr LAHMANN said the Government had sold, as late as June last, 125 acres in Westland, containing, perhaps, some of the richest coal-bearing land in the colony, for L 5 per acre. He considered that a very wrong action. He did not think that opening up of the two harbors would be productive of bad results; on the contrary, he argued that such an action would be beneficial, and he hoped that the Council would recognise that the Westport harbor would in any case be the better to open up. Hon. Mr AGLAND supported the Bill, arguing that if it were carried, the works would offer employment to the men now out of work in the colony, and it would also reduce the price of coal. Hon. Mr McLEAN said that those hon. gentlemen who had opposed the harbors were wrong, inasmuch as they should, in that case, have supported the Westport instead of the Greymouth Bill. He supported the Bill

W Honf Mr WILSON opposed the Bill. Hon. Mr BONAR said that the Westport Company had been compelled to decline several offers to supply coal to Yictoria and South Australia. He considered that one port would be absolutely incapable of supplying the" market which would be open. On division, the Bill was read a second time. Ayes, 22 ; noes, 5. DRAINAGE OF MINES BILL. The Council went into committee on this Bill. It was agreed to with amendments. It was reported, and the third reading made an order for the following day. PUBLIC WORKS ACT, 1882, AMENDMENT BILL, This Bill was considered and amended in committee. It was reported, and ordered to be recommitted on the following day. SUPREME COURT REGISTRAR (TARANAKI) EMPOWERING BILL. This Bill was recommited, and several slight amendments made. The third reading was made an order for the following day. DESTITUTE PERSONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a second time, on the motion of’the COLONIAL SECRETARY. OTAGO PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH' BOARD OF PROPERTY BILL. Amendments recommended' by His Excellency the Governoir in.this Bill were agreed to. The Council then (11 p.m.) adjourned. WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 29. The Council met at 2.30. SCHOOL COMMITTEES ELECTION BILL. Hon. Mr BARNICOAT moved the second reading of this Bill. ■ Hon. Dr POLLEN opposed the Bill, and moved that it be read that day six months. After a short discussion, the second reading of the Bill was negatived on division. Ayes, 7—Hons. Bail lie, Bamicoat, Acland, Koliere, Bonar, Mantell, Reynolds. Noes, 22—Hons. Williamson, McLean, Oliver, Waterhouse, Richmond, Eraser, Scotland, Wilson, Pharazyn, Peter, Peacock, Reeves, G. Buckley, Henderson, Dignan, Wigley, G. R. Johnson, Grace, Colonel Brett, Hart, Pollen, P. Bucklev. FALSE NOTICE OF BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, AND DEATHS BILL.This Bill was read a second time, on the motion of Hon. Mr McLEAN, WEST HARBOR BOROUGH EMPOWERING Blit. This Bill was committed and agreed to without amendments. It was then reported, and read a third time and passed. 1Q _ C w _ MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT, 187 b, AMEND-

MENT BILL. _ The second reading of this Bill was moved by Hon. Mr RICHMOND. ~ , . Hon. Mr WATERHOUSE considered such a measure should be introduced by the Government, and therefore moved as an amendment that any Bill amending the Municipal Corporations Act should be introduced on the. responsibility of the Government. Hon. Dr POLLEN supported the amendment, deprecating attempts to tinker with legislation. - . The amendment was carried. BANKRUPTCY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Hon. COLONIAL SECRET ARY . moved the second reading of this Bill, explaining that the object of the Bill was to make certain necessary amendments in the present bankruptcy law, most of which amendments had been proposed by Judges. Agreed to. POLICE OFFENCES BILL. by Tl the Se Hom r CO^ Asrsod to# NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIA-

TION BILL. The, Council went into committee on this Bill. 1 On clause 5, constitution of board, Hon. Mr Wilson moved that the name of the Colonial-. Treasurer be struck out. Hon. Colonial Secretary'was--sorry to see the Colonial Treasurer insulted in this manner, for lie could not look upon it as other than an insult. Hon. Mr Waterhouse denied that any reflection whatever was intended upon the person holding the office of Colonial Treasurer. Hon. Mr Oliver was averse, to leaving the Treasurer out of the hoard, ‘ and he suggested that that Minister should be left a member of the board, the Government having the power to nominate a chairman. Motion to strike out the words lost. On clause 20, remuneration of directors, Hon. Mr McLean moved that the subsection, providing that the Disqualification Act should not apply in respect of elected directors, be struck out. At this juncture the Council adjourned till 7.30. Consideration of the Bill was resumed _at 7.30, Hon. Mr McLean’s amendment being lost. In clause 22, Colonial Treasurer to be | chairman of the board, Hon. Mr_ Waterhouse moved to sttike out the proviso, that the Treasurer should be ex officio chairman, and to substitute the following words : —“ The Governor shall appoint a chairman of the board, who shall preside at all meetings.

Hon. Mr Oliver suggested that..if the Treasurer were,made chairman of the .board a managing director should be appointed by the board. Subsequently the ' amendment was withdrawn, and the clause as printed . was agreed to. On clause 38, what contracts board may enter into, Hon. Mr Oliver moved to insert provision to the effect that nothing in the Act should authorise the board to carry on business outside the colony. Hon. Colonial Secretary said that it was not the intention of the clausa to legalise, outside business. He had no objection, however, to making the Bill as stringent as possible in this direction. Hon. Mr McLean moved to strike out that portion, of the. clause enabling . the board to enter into “ contracts for the insuracne of sums to be payable in the event of personal disablement, injury, or death resulting from accident only# s’ Hon. Colonial Secretary pointed out that a business of this'character now established in the colony was paying well. Hon.- Sir G. S., Whitmore replied that it did fiot< follow,-because a speculation was a paying' one, that tile Government should eh ter into it.- After a lengthy and som.ewhat(acrimonious discussion, the- committee divided on the question, thati tbe words proposed to he omitted stand ;part of< the Bill:':r-;Ayes,;Tl ; iib'es, 1 15; - The wo’rds were’ accordingly*struck out. Hon. Mr Oliver’s’amendment was then Iptft and carried-. On the motion of Hon. Mr Wilson, clause 40, board may refuse to contract, was struck out. The Bill, with-several further amendments, was agreed to.

GREYMOUTH HARBOR BOARD BILL. The Council went into committee on the Greymouth Harbor Board Bill. On clause 9, the Governor in Council may guarantee loan, Hon. Mr Waterhouse moved an amendment (which was carried) to the effect that the guarantee should be made by the Governor in Council before the loan was raised. _ The following new clause was added to the Bill : 11a. So soon as a sum of one hundred thousand pounds has been expended out of any public moneys in the improvement of the harbor of Greymouth, there shall he paid, in respect of every ton of coal brought for shipment in the said harbor, by the shipper thereof, a sum of three pence, as a special rate for the purpose of being applied towards the repayment of the moneys authorised to be borrowed under this Act, and the interest thereon. The aforesaid rate shall be collected as and from such day and by such persons as the Governor may from, time to time appoiut, and when collected shall be paid to the hoard, to be applied by it for the purpose hereinabove mentioned. The Bill was agreed to with amendments, and reported. WESTPORT HARBOR BOARD BILL. The Council went into Committee on this Bill. The following new clause was added, on the motion of the Colonial Secretary 11a. So soon as the sum of L 250,000 has been expended in the improvement of the harbor of Westport, there shall be paid, in respect of every ton of coal brought for shipment in the said harbor, by the shipper tb ereof, a sum of threepence, as a special rate for the purpose of being applied towards the repayment of the moneys authorised to be borrowed under this Act, and the interest thereon. The aforesaid rate shall be collected as and from such day, and by such persons as the Governor may from time to time appoint, and when collected shall be paid to the board, to be applied by it for the purposes hereinabove mentioned. The Bill as amended was reported, and the Council rose at 10.10 pm.