PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, October 20. The Speaker took the chair at half-past tiro o’clock. NELSON GAS BIEL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in this bill were agreed to. PETITIONS. Mr Williamson presented a petition with reference to the settlement of boundaries at the Thames. Mr Shepherd presented a petition from inhabitants of Mount Benger, in Otago, praying that the sale of the 50,000 acres in Otago be set aside. Mr Bradshaw presented a petition from miners of Switzers, Otago, praying for the prevention of the influx of Chinese. Mr J. C. Brown presented a petition from residents of Otago against the aided clauses in the Education Bill. THE WESTLAND AWARD. Mr HARRISON asked the Colonial Secretary whether, considering the great change which has taken place in the method of dividing the provincial share of t.he consolidated revenue since the award was given under “The Canterbury and Westland Public Debt Apportionment Act, 1868,” the Government will cause inquiry to be made, with the view of recommending the House next session to reopen the award ? In moving the motion the hon member mentioned that when the county of Westland was separated from the province of Canterbury the debts were divided between the two" places, according to the Customs’ revenue raised in each. That was found to press very hard on Westland, as in reality it meant that Westland should contribute more than one-half of the debts of the province of Canterbury. Then the House was asked- to oonsent to arbitration, and the debt was referred to arbitrators, who, not being able, to agree, the award was made by an umpire. That award was made upon the then existing circumstances of the colony, and almost immediately, in the following year, the new system of consolidating the debts of the provinces was brought into operation, the effect of which was to reduce the revenue of Westland and to increase her burden. As the n utter now stood the whole of the revenue was absorbed in paying the debts of the province of Canterbury. He hoped the Gr vernment would have no objection to make inquiry from the umpire and ascertain whether, in his opinion, under the altered circumsiances brought about by the consolidation of the revenue, he does not consider it desirable to reopen the award. Mr GISBORN E said the essence of the award was its finality. It would never do for the Government to reopen an award so as to inquire whether it should not be gone into again. There were other provinces in which the same case would arise, and the whole thing would have to be opened again. He did not see how they were to reopen the award ; it would not be an advisable course. NATIVE REPRESENTATION IN PROVINCIAL COUNCILS.
TAIAROA asked the Native Minister, if the Government would be prepared session to bring in a bill to enable the native race to be represented in the several Provincial Councils of the colony? He would like the Native Minister to explain how it was that Maoris had not hitherto been represented in Provincial Councils. He had seen an act of the General Assembly in which it was stipulated that Maori representatives should have seats. Mr M'LEAN said there was an act in existence in which it was laid down that Maori members should sit in every Provincial Council. It rested entirely with the Superintendents of provinces whether they should have seats or not, because it was in their power to call one Maori member to a seat in the Council. CABE OF LUNDON AND WHITAKER, Mr ROLLESTON moved that copies of all judgments of the Native Land Court affecting any lands referred to in the petition of Messrs Lundon and Whitaker, not previously laid on the table, be laid on the table, and printed. Agreed to. THIRD READINGS. The Welling!on City Reserves Bill, the Maßterton and Greytown Lands Management Bill, the Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill, and the Oarnnru Dock Trust Borrowing Bill, were read a third and passed. WELLINGTON RECLAIMED LAND BILL. ' Mr BUNNY moved that the amendments made by the Legislative Council be disagreed to. The first amendment proposed that the bill was not to vest in the Superintendent the block of land which had been reserved for provincial buildings until the payment of a certain sum of money. A second amendment cut out that portion of the act which enabled the Superintendent to mortgage that land. Mr Stafford did not quite agree with the motion make by Mr Bunny, because lie thought it quite possible that the Legislative Council had removed from the bill its most objectionable feature. Mr Reynolds proposed the postponement of the consideration of the amendments. Mr Gillies thought, with Mr Stafford, that the amendments were very desirable ones. Mr Eitzherbert objected to the postponement. He denied that the object of the bill as it stood permuted him to sell the land. By adopting the suggestion offered, the House would be stultifying itself by consenting to alter the provisions of a bill which bad passed through more than the usual rigor of the ordinary forms. The buildings the Provincial Government were about to erect were to accommodate the officers of the Provincial Government and for the holding of the council sittings, as well as to provide some accommodation to General Government officers. The motion that the amendment be disagreed to was then put and carried, Messrs Eitzherbert, Hunter, and Bunny being appointed managers to draw up reasons.
THE BROGDEN DEBATE. Mr VOGEL said he had announced yesterday the exact course the Government would take with reference to the Brogden contracts. At that time the Government had an appointment with Mr Brogden, who had agreed to call on them at half-past five in the evening. In consequence of his (Mr Vogel) making that statement, Mr Brogden sent up a note saying that the time was too short, and it was only within the last five minutes that he had received that communication. Hon members would see that every consideration was due to a gentleman who had come so long a distance as Mr Brogden had, and the Government could not do less than advise him to take a day or two to consider the circumstances surrounding the proposals before they were submitted to the House. Therefore, the Government would not be able to explain before Tuesday next the course proposed to be taken with reference to the Brogden contract. PUBLIC REVENUE BILL. Mr VOGEL, in moving the second reading of this bill, said very few bills had so rough a time as this one had had. The present stage was generally the time bills were emancipated from their infancy, but this one hud undergone all the dangers of a very rough handling at an unusually early stage in its existence; it was, therefore, only necessary to explain that the bill had the double purpose of enabling the deficiency bills to be increased from £60.000 to £IOO,OOO, and to enable the system to be carried out which the. Government proposed to adopt in the financial statement., of making what have been known as provincial charges charges upon the colonial revenue. That was, generally, the double purpose of the bill. There was also a clause providing that in the event of the death or resignation of the Controller it should be competent for the Government to combine the office with that of Auditor-General. That clause had been introduced from no disrespect to the Controller, and with no view on the part ol the Government to bring pressure to bear upon him with a view to force him to resign, hub it was within the knowledge of the Government that the original intention in the passing of the act was that the Controllei should also be Auditor General. A subsequent Government altered that intention, and made it a distinct office. At. the very time that that course was being adopted in this colony, the plan was being reversed in England by a bill which provided that when the office of Controller was vacant the duties should be transferred to the Audit Board. The Government believed that the functions could be performed by the Auditor-General without any detriment to the public service. Indeed, they were rather under the impression that, by throwing the responsibility upon the Auditor General, the plan would eventuate in their having a much more efficient and a much better Bystem than the present. This was only one stage towards a complete system of supervision. It would be a considerable saving, also; as whenever the office became vacant the duties would be transferred t.o the Auditor General. With resoect to the provision for enabling the deficiency bills to be increased from £60,000 to £IOO,OOO, he had to say that, in the opinion of the Government, this course was absolutely necessary. It. was all very well for hon members to get up and rail against the House r for assisting the Government to carry out the business of the country. The Government had had an immense difficulty this year to avoid increased taxation 5 at any rate to confine that increase to the extent of imposing a tax on cereals and a slight increase in the itamp duties. Any hon member who went to the trouble of going through the proposals would see that they were brought down to a very fine point with the view of making all ends meet during the year. This increased power of coming and going was very desirous unless it was the wish of the House that there should be a permanent burden of taxation or that an increase on the burden of the colony should be imposed. The Government were anxious that such a course should not be adopted. If the House aided the Government to tide over this difficulty, a difficulty they must all expect at a time when the effeOts of the initiation of the public works policy were about to be felt, when all the energies of the country were at their greatest period of trial, they would not have to wait long to see that there would be again that elasticity in the revenue whinh would bring about a feeling that they had not unduly increased the permanent burdens of the colony in the shape of unnecessary loans or unnecessary taxation. He had thrown upon the members the onus of accepting this bill, or of showing ‘to the Government some other means of carrying on the government of the country. This power of issuing deficiency bills waß not so large as it appeared to be, because they were indebted to the provinces and were always more or less short of revenue from the different parts of the colony. Mr STAFFORD said the explanation or apology of the Colonial Treasurer amounted to this: that he virtually admitted that the Government intended to spend more money than the revenue of the country would cover. His statement virtually admitted that the Government were perfectly aware that the revenue that would come in during the yea,r would not be sufficient to meet the expenditure which they contemplated, and then he proposed that those who objected to the course proposed should suggest some other mode by which the requirements of the country should be met. They did not go on as this Government had done, exceeding its revenue and borrowing money only to pay its . existing loans. f J hat was the course of this Government. They came down and snid the House must give it this power; they must have power to carry on their present course. He had no doubt the Government would get that power; he had no doubt whatever after the divisions that had taken place. He was pre-
pared to show that such a system was thoroughly ruinous and pernicious With such a majority he was aghast at the hon gentleman’s moderation. As Warren Hastings said on his impeachment before the House of Commons, “ When he considered that 110 had the whole of the dominions of India at his disposal, he was aghast at his moderation.” He was surprised that the hon gentleman the Colonial Treasurer did not ask for half-a-million ; he was sure he would have the same majority if he were to ask the House to vote that amount. Every Government had the power to borrow to the amount of £60,000, and it was not till 1869 that the power was exercised, when the war broke out on the West Coast, and the power was exercised then only to furnish funds to suppress the war. But then there was a Government in office who did not believe that the policy of the country was to spend its revenue in the reckless manner of the present. If the representatives of the people thought the course proposed by the present Government the proper course, let them be answerable for it. If the people of the country did not know what the policy of the Government meant now they would know what it meant in a few years; those who could not leave the country —who have their property and interests fixed in it—would discover what it meant; they would have to know what it meant when they found they could not get away. Mr Reid, Mr Thomson, and Mr Calder followed on the same side, Mr Gisborne and Mr M'Leod speaking for the Government. Mr M'LEAN said the hon member had dealt with the Government rather unfairly. What the Government had endeavored to do was to meet a unanimous desire on the part of the people and their representatives to open out a great scheme which would meet their wishes? Had not the Government done that ? Had they not entered u pon emigration schemes? Had they not entered upou great works which no one would doubt, would be of the greatest, good to the country? He did not think much of the captious opposition offered to them. He had heard members say that they desired to see a colonising policy ; even the member for Timaru himself had >aid that the policy of the Government had*been filched from him. But when he had the opportunity of carrying out those works why did he not do so ? The Government of the day did not intend to follow any do-nothing policy. They would endeavor to meet what they knew to be the d sire of the country, namely, that the country should be opened up by colonising means of every description. Mr Macandrew and Mr M‘Gillivray followed in the same line of argument. Mr EITZHERBERT said the bill had no reference to the scheme whatever. It was a deficiency bill. The Government would have to meet its engagements, and how were they to do it ? Was the House to delight in tying the down to difficulties ? Were they to go to banks, and ask for accommodation ? That he held to be a most objectionable and injurious course; he hoped they would not have recourse to that kind of temporary expedient. The fact was, it had been found that the margin of £60,000 allowed to the Government was not sufficient. He knew that from experience, and he would vote for the giving of the £IOO,OOO, which he thought not too great a latitude for any Government. Mr ROLLEBTON said Ministers seemed to think it justifiable to throw money broadcast in order to create revenue ; to borrow money to pay interest on their debts. He could only say that the whole scheme of the Government would be to depopulate and demoralise the people of the country. Mr WHITE was not quite prepared to say whether the policy of the Government was a coionising one or not, but he could say that the effect of the policy would be towards a dpcolonising effect. He knew that its effect, so far as it had gone, had been to unsettle the majority of the people in the district from which he came. He should oppose the bill, because he thought the £BO,OOO a margin quite sufficient to work upon. It had been found to be so in times past, and why should it not be so now ? There was now a grave feeling of doubt arising in the public mind as to what the ultimate effect of this policy would be. No doubt the Government had a very powerful majority, and would would carry this or any other measure, but unless they modified their proposals before next year they would find that that majority would be materially reduced. A laissez faire policy would be far preferable to the injurious measures which they were introducing. Mr J. E. BROWN would only make a few remarks upon what had been said by Mr Rolleston, who seemed so oblivious to the progress of the country, caused by the measures of the Government, that lie quite despaired of his ever becoming a useful administrator. The hon member was quite impracticable. He combated the idea that the Opposition represented the most important part of the taxpayers of the country. He ventured to say that the members of the House supporting the Government represented more of the property of the country than did the Opposition. He was very much pained to hear-a remark of the hon member for Timaru, “ that if the Government wished to borrow half a million they would find members in the House to support them.” (Hear, hear.) He denied it. He was prepared to say at once that he would oppose any measure for borrowing even so much as £200,000. Then it had been said that the Government had the support of a great many members of the House who expected expenditure of public money in their own district. He knew that the province of Canterbury was receiving less expenditure than any province in the colony, and vet twelve of the members of that province were supporting the Government; so that that was not the cause of their, adhesion. Ma PEARCE wished to know whether the Colonial Treasurer would be willing to with*
draw the clause relating to the Controller if it were not. essential to the bill ? Mr YOGEL said if it were the wish of the House that the clause should be withdrawn he would not object; it was not essential. The clause had been inserted to enable the Government to amalgamate the offices of Controller and Auditor when the first office became vacant. If the clause were not passed with the bill the Government would be compelled to fill the office again. The Government would, in the event of any suitable vacancy occurring, offer it to the gentlemen at present holding the Controllership. There was one point he wished particularly to go forth, and that was, that there was not the smallest intention to put a slight upon the controller. The bill was then read a second time. INSOLVENCY BILL. This bill was transmitted from the Legislative Council, and read a first time, the second reading being ordered for Tuesday. payments to provinces bill. Mr VOGEL, before this bill was committed, said it had been represented to the Government that* some of the provinces would be placed in a serious difficulty, on account of having entered into engagements, and he had to muke a proposal which he hoped the House would agree with. The proposal was with reference to the £50,000 which was to be set apart for road boards ; that at the request of the Superintendent the Government might agree that instead of the amount coming to the province being divided amongst the road boards, it might be devoted to some permanent work which the Provincial Government might be constructing ; say upon a road being constructed by a province, the Superintendent and the Minister of Public Wo ks might agree to secure that the money should be expended on some such public works. The effect would be to relieve the provinces and enable them to fulfil their promises and carry on any works which had been engaged in. He thought that was a proposal which would be accepted by members generally. It would meet a difficulty without the undesirable feature of being brought about by any sudden change. Mr SHEPHERD (the House having gone into committee) asked the Government whether they intended to discontinue the inland postal charges as a provincial charge. Mr VOGEL said the Government did not see their way to alter the charges. The course which they thought it best to adopt was to ask the House to adopt them as a provincial charge. He wished the House to sanction the arrangement made this year, and next year they would make it a colonial charge. Mr CARRIIS’G LON asked why there was a difference in the capitation allowance for Taranaki and that for Hawke’s Bay. He saw that the population was about the same in each province. Mr VOGEL said the whole amount to which Taranaki was entitled would not reach the province through the provincial chest, but would none the less surely through the colonial chest.
Mr REYNOLDS made a proposition for omit ting the clause making special allowances to the province-, which was lost. The bill was then reported to the House. WAYS AND MEANS.
Mr STAFFORD, before the House went into committee of ways and means, proposed the following amendment to the order of the day:—“That, having regard to the existing position ot the country, this House is of opinion that the aggregate taxation of the people of New Zealand should not be increased, but that a rigid economy should be practis'd in the administration of the Government, so as to insure that the expenditure for the ordinary services of the year should not exceed The amount of the ordinary revenues of the year.” He merely moved this amendment to place oh record his opinion of the system of playing at finance in which the Government was at present indulging. Mr VOGEL said he had a right to appeal to the sympathies of members against these motions. At the early part of the session they had many of these resolutions, on which a very definite opinion had been expressed by the House. They must all remember when an Opposition was formed it was announced that the hon member member for Timaruwas going to deliver an elaborate speech. All the surroundings of the House were frequented during the day by persons,on the alert, the gallarieß of the House were crowded, members were on the tiptoe of expectation, the Government were going to be vanquished, and what did it all end in ? The hon member “ ended without making a resolution !” The Opposition seemed to have one point, and that was this, that they should devote themselves to prolonging the business of the session. (Hear, hear). Mr T. KELLY moved as an amendment “ That having regard to the existing position of the country, this House is of opinion that the taxation is unfairly levied on the community, and considering the burthen which the protection of property inflicts upon the country it is only fair and reasonable that it should contribute to the revenup, and that during the recess the Government should consider the subject with the view of ascertaining the desirability of submitting to the Legislature a proposal to revise the tariff, so as to impose a property and income tax.” The SPEAKER ruled that the portion ef the amendment relatngtothe property and income tax could not. be put. Mr WOOD supported the resolution of the hon member for Tiraaru. It was rather remarkable that whenever a motion was made from the Opposition side of the House they were told that they were wasting the time of the House. Last evening they were compelled to listen to a dreary debate of several hours on a subject of no importance whatever, and the Government said not a word. He merely mentioned the fact to prove how earnest the Government were in their endeavors to save the time of the House, The idea of
wasting the time of the House suggested itself only when motions came from a particular section. Mr GILLIES said it came very badly from the Colonial Treasurer to accuse the Opposition of wasting the time of the House. If the hon gentleman would take the trouble to go through Hansard with a two-foot rule, be would find that the speeches of the Opposition were nothing as compared with those of the Government and their supporters. Mr YOG-EL : They are much more numerous. (Laughter.) Mr GILLIES: Yes, but they haven’t a corresponding amount of good sense. He came there to do what he could for the benefit of the country, and it was very unfair of the Government te attempt to put down a minority. Whether the Ministry agreed with the amendment of the hon member for Timaru or not, he fully believed that the country would agree with it. The Colonial Treasurer had told them in the financial statement that they should equalise their expenditure with their revenue, and the only way to do that was to reduce their expenditure ; but had they done that ? It was the duty of the Government to lead the House in the matter of reduction : hut had they done so ? The House was not so much to blame as the Government for their want of retrenchment. There was scarcely a bill that came before them that did not propose some fresh expenditure. Mr FOX thanked the hon member for his fatherly lecture in telling the House that it had been the Government and not the Opposition that were to blame. The hon member had referred to his speech on the Licensing Bill, and said that that was wasting the time of the House ; ho could only say that he was wasting the time of the House at the request of 12,000 people. He only wished, though he Baid it himself, that the time of the House were wasted in a similar way more often. After all the blowing of trumpets they had had from the other side, such as the weak inflated speech they had heard from the leader of the Opposition, and on which occasion he “ ended without making a resolution,” he considered they had wasted a great deal of time. He again alluded to the waste of eight days in the last three weeks, which was clearly attributable to those who now formed the Opposition. Mr Wakefield, Mr Inglis, and Mr Reid spoke on the Opposition side, one point of Mr Reid’s being that he hoped the Board of Works would not, as was proposed by the Government, have in their discretion the taking and disposal of lands for settlement under the public works regulations. He hoped that was a function that would be retained in the hands of the House. The Government had passed their bill by which they proposed to increase their deficiency bills from £60,000 to £IOO,OOO every year, and if the amount were increased to £200,000 they would find necessities for the means he had not the slightest doubt. He felt convinced that the proposals for taxation would not meet the views of the people ; the one idea of the penny tax would entail an amount of trouble and annoyance that would be intolerable. Mr Calder delivered a good speech on behalf of the Opposition. On division, the amendment of Mr Stafford was negatived, the numbers being—Ayes, 22 ; Hoes, 40. The amendment of Mr Kellv waß also negatived, and the motion for going into committee was then put and agreed to. The following were the items passed :—Admission and appointment, or grant by any writing to or of any office, place, or employment under the General Government of New Zealand or under any Provincial Government, or the County Council of the County of Westland, or in any Municipal Corporation established under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1870, or under an act or ordinance mentioned or referred to in the first schedule of the said acts, or any acts amending or continuing the same where the annual salary or emoluments shall exceed £IOO and shall not exceed £2OO, 1 per cent; exceed £2OO and shall not exceed £SOO, 2 per cent; exceed £SOO, 3 per cent ; exemptions — (1.) Admission proceeding upon a duly stamped appointment or grant. (2.) Periodical readmission or appointment to any office, or employment of any person who has been once duly admitted to such office or employment. Annual license to be taken out by all Joint Stock Companies and all incorporated companies exclusive of Mining and Flax Companies carrying on business in New Zealand whether incorporated in this colony or elsewhere, one shilling per cent on nominal capital, but not to exceed a maximum of £2OO in respect of any one certificate of incorporation. The House adjourned at a quarter to two o’olock, until half-past seven on Tuesday evening. Tuesday,' October 24. The Speaker took the chair at half-past seven. PETITIONS. Mr Reeyes presented a petition from residents of the Selwyn, Canterbury, protesting against the letting of contracts to Messrs Brogden, unless by public tender. Mr Stafford presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Timaru, in favor of the Permissive Bill. UNIVER3ITY COUNCIL. Mr Bathgate asked the Government if it he true that any excess of their powers on the part of the New Zealand University Council has been approved by his Excellency the Governor; and if there be any objection to place all further correspondence between the General Government and the University Council on the table ? Mr FOX, in the absence of his colleague, Mr Gisborne, said he was not able to give all the particulars asked. Any further correspondence on the subject he would have no objection to lay on the table.
FIRST READINGS. A bill to grant compensation to M'Gregor and others ; a bill intituled an act to provide for the constitution of road boards within native districts, were read a first time. The motion for leave to introduce a hill to repeal the New Zealand University Act, 1870, met with opposition, and a division being called for, the result was —Ayes, 46 ; noes, 17. Leave was therefore given. PAPERS. A number of papers and returns were laid on the table by command of his Excellency. GOVERNMENT BUSINESS. Mr YOGEL asked the peimission of the House to move, without notice, That after to morrow Government business takes precedence every sitting-day, and that the House meet daily, Mondays and Saturdays inclusive, at half-past one o’clock. The hon member explained that the Government desired to get through the business of the session by the end of next week.
Several members objecting, Mr Fox moved the suspension of the standng orders. This also met with opposition, when Mr M’Lean stated that the Government had been requested to make such a proposition to the Hous3 on account of the anxiety of members to get to their homes. Mr J. E. Brown said, for the purpose of expediting business he would be quite willing to withdraw his motion referring to the alteration of the waste lands of the province of Canterbury, and he hoped other hon members would do so likewise. Mr Wakefield altogether objected to the system of throwing over the private business to suit the views of the Government, who wished to throw them back a whole year by preventing the settlement of private business. He warned the member for Ashley that if he might be found willing to abandon a bill of such importance to thousands of the inhabitants of the province of Canterbury, he would take it up and go on with it. He strongly insisted that the question of the sale of land on deferred payments in that province should come before the House for discussion and decision. Mr Macandrew thought enough time had been frittered away already in unnecessary talk. If they were to sit at twelve o’clock every day, one week was quite sufficient to get through the business to be done. Mr Creighton altogether objected to Mr Macandrew arrogating to himself the right to continually twit members with indulgence in unnecessary talk. The hon member himself had brought down motions for changing the constitution no less than four times; constitution after constitution had been thrown down to them, and as much time wasted by him as by any member of the House. The motion that the standing orders be suspended to enable the Colonial Treasurer to make a motion without notice, was then put, and a division being called for, the numbers were: Ayes, 38; noes, 8. The standing orders requiring that there should be two-thirds of the members present in order to allow their suspension the motion was not allowed to be made without notice. THE BROGDEN CONTRACT. Mr YOGEL made a detailed explanation of the history and nature of the Brogden contract which will appear in our next issue. In the course of his remarks he introduced the following memorandum of the Messrs Brogden, drawn up by their solicitor (Mr Travers) : Memorandum for Ministers in relation to Messrs Brogden’s contracts, submitted without prejudice. As to contract No. 2.—1. Messrs Brogden consider that it is within the power of the Government to make any modifications which they may desire in contract No. 2, without the necessity of intervention on the part of the Legislature. 2. That, until their suggestion hereinafter contained in regard to contract No. 1 have been decided upon by the Government and Legislature, they ought not to be required to make any suggestions or propositions as to modifying contract No 2.—3 That, in the meantime, contract No. 2 should be treated as having been executed by the Governor.
As to contract No. I.—When the Messrs Brogden entered into this contract with the Hon Mr Yogel, they did so in the firm belief and expectation that it would be adopted by the colony to the full extent of the outlay referred to in it, and according to the principles and spirit involved in it. They assume that, subject to such modifications as may be found materially advantageous, the Government are earnest in their desire to carry it out accordingly, and the following suggestions are made upon the distinct understanding thar, if agreed to by Ministers, this contract will be submitted to the consideration of the Legislature with all the weight of Government approval: — Suggestions. —1. The contract may be modified or altered in two distinct ways, as follows : —lst alternative : Government to give a direct guarantee of the principal and interest on the bonds or coupons to be issued by the contractors for the money raised for the works. The rate of profit to be increased from five to eight per cent. The emigration scheme to be abandoned. As a consideration for the foregoing alterations, the contractors will surrender all claim to the lands to be allotted to them under the present contract. 2nd alternative J Government to employ the Messrs. Brogden in the construction of railways and other large public works of a permanent nature to the extent of (say) nob less than £4,000,000, spread over a period not exceeding ten years, paying them in cash the cost of such work when completed, with a profit of £lO per cent, on such cost as shown by accounts to be rendered, with an advance of £9O per cent, monthly by way of progress payments on the residuary certificate. The contract No. 1 to be completely abandoned. Messrs. |Brogden point out the following as special advantages which the colony would derive from the adoption of the latter course : —l. They would be prepared to take over
and employ, so far as would be necessary for the works, the whole of the efficient staff of tlie General Government in connection with the department of public works. 2. They would, for their own sakes, be prepared to establish factories in New Zealand for the ma nufacture and supply of all such plant and rolling-stock, &c., as could be advantageously and economically manufactured in this colony. The collateral advantages to the policy for such a course cannot, it is submitted, be over-estimated. By the adoption, moreover, of this proposition, the Government would have an assurance that the whole of the works of any magnitude to be undertaken for them would be prosecuted and contracted upon one comprehensive plan.
Mr SHEPHERD looked upon the speech of the Colonial Treasurer as just such a one as he would expect to hear delivered on behalf of the Messrs Brogden themselves. He had read through the contracts, and he saw that there was very little advantage to accrue to the colony, but a great deal to the contractors. He had never heard of such a preposterous contract, and he considered that any Government which would consent to be bound by such a contract deserved to be impeached. The contract was framed in so pliable a manner that the colony would be entirely at the mercy or honor of the contractors. There was nothing to prevent them sub-letting the contract at an advance of 20 per cent. When the contracts for the Victorian railways were about to be issued Sir Morton Peto wished to have the contract, bub the Government advertised for tenders, and the result was that whereas his tender was for seven millions a colonial contractor undertook to construct the works at five millions and a-half, saving the colony a million and a-half. He did not believe that these contracts were binding on the colony, but that the Colonial Treasurer bad exceeded his powers in executing them. In order that his opposition should not have any barren result he would move, “ That the contracts entered into by the Colonial Treasurer with Messrs Brogden and Sons are highly detrimental to the interests of the country, and that all contracts for the construction of railways under the Public Works Act, 1870, should be let by public tender; and should not be made under guarantee, but by cash only.”
Mr STAFFORD suggested the adjournment of the debate till next day. He knew of nothing on the statute book by which the Governor had power to make these contracts binding, and he would accept the motion for the rejection of the No. 1 contract, but with no understanding that he should vote for the acceptance of No 2 contract, or of any modifications of it, because lie could not understand that the legislature should be bound by a merely verbal understanding of the Colonial Treasurer. It would very largely facilitate their coming to a decision if the Government would next day bring down the opinion of the Attorney-General.
Mr YOGEL said so far as the Government had gone the Attorney-General was with them in thinking that they had the necessary power; the second contract recited the portion of the act under which the contract had been made This was also the opinion of eminent counsel at home. The Government would not object to the postponement of the debate.
Mr ROLLE3TON would like to have a distinct reply as to whether the opinion of the Attorney-General would be brought down. The issue brought before them by the Colonial Treasurer was not fair to the House or to the people of the colony. The speech of the Colonial Treasurer had not put the matter in a more favorable light. To neither of the contracts did he give his concurrence. Reading them as a layman, he saw in them nothing by which they were bound at all. He would move that with the view of enabling the House to proceed to the further consideration of contract No. 2 or any modification of it, the House desires that the opiniou of the Attorney-General should be brought down to the House with a view to show how far the colony was bound by these contracts.
Mr YOGEL said the Government knew exactly what such a motion meant, and were quite willing to make a ministerial question of it if the hon member had courage enough to bring down a motion challenging their action.
Mr GILLIES thought the request of the hon member quite reasonable. It was undoubted that the Government were bound to honor to act on one or other, or both of the contracts, but was the colony legally bound in accept them. He did not object to dealing fairly with Messrs Brogden, but both parties should at least start fair. He hoped the Q-overnment would accede to such a mild request. , Mr BELL thought the colony, in all honor, was bound to fulfil the terms of contract No. 2. Mr Bell prayed the House, in a feeling speech, not to make the question a party one. Mr STAFFORD said if there was anything calculated to make the question a party one it would be the delivery of a few such speeches as that of the member for Mataura (Mr Bell). A great deal of discontent and opposition would be allayed if the Government would accede to the reasonable request of the member for Avon, (Mr Rolleston). When the late Mr Crosbie Ward went home and arranged the Panama contract the Colonial Treasurer was the man who moved, in that House, that the contract should not be ratified on the ground that he had exceeded his powers. He altogether disclaimed any connection with the outside opposition. Although, even if he had identified himself with those meetings, or gone the length of inciting them, there was nothing disgraceful in that. Mr FOX deprecated the action taken by the members on the other side of the House. The case of the Panama contract had been alluded to, but why did the Opposition not follow out the course of the Colonial Treasurer on that occasion. He tabled a want
of confidence motion on the subject, and why did not those who were objecting to these contracts come down with a similar proposition. The Government did consider themselves bound by the contracts, and he also considered the country or the House was bound to them, and if the Opposition thought the Government had exceeded their powers there was a constitutional method of expressing such an opinion. Mr GILLIES pointed out a very strong reason why the Government should ascertain whether the contract was a legal one. Suppose the Government wished to impose penalties for non-performanee of the conditions of the contract, they might be told, if they insisted upon the forfeiture of the deposit of £25,000, that they had no power to do so on account of the contract being illegal. The discussion lasted some time, but no speeches of greater interest than those already delivered were made. The Chairman then reperted progress, leave being given to sit again to-morrew. The motion for the adjournment caused a a division, and, being carried, the House adjourned at half-past twelve. Wednesday, October 25. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. petitions. Mr Carrington presented a petition with reference to a site for post office and telegraph office at New Plymouth. Mr White presented a petition from leaseholders of the native reserve, Arahura, praying that they may be allowed to purchase the freehold to their land. Mr O’Conor presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Westport praying for the making of a road between Westport and the Inangahua. Mr Curtis presented a petition from Thomas Henderson, a member of the House, praying that inquiry may be made into the circumstances of a purchase of 17,000 acres of land made by him from the natives. public petitions committee. Amongst the reports brought up waa one upon the petition of Campbell and another, contractors, of Invercargill, who prayed the House to interfere in the settlement of an old claim against the Town Board of that place for the making of Tay street, Invercargill. The report recommended the Government not to interfere in any way with the dispute. STANDING ORDERS. Mr REEYE3 (the attention of the Speaker having been called by Mr Mervyn to the subject of the standing orders referring to the preparation and presentation of petitions to the House) thought the Government should once or twice during the course of the year have the standing orders printed in the Government Gazette for the information of the public, because they were in reality the persons concerned in the question put by the hon member for Mount Ida, and as they had no other measure of becoming acquainted with the standing orders, the course he suggested would be very advisable. The SPEAKER thanked the hon member for the suggestion, and said he would recommend the Government to adopt it. privilege. Mr CURTIS drew the attention of the Speaker to a matter of privilege, the offence being contained in the use of the language employed by the member for the Wairau (Mr Eyes) on the occasion of moving the motion in the case of Mr A. S. Dreyer when that hon member stated that the person, Beauchamp, referred to in the examination into the case, had offered to supply Dreyer a letter containing statements the reverse of those he had supplied to the Hon Dr Renwick, provided he were paid a similar amount of money as he had received for the first. Dr Renwick had written to him (Mr Curtis) disclaiming any conduct of a discreditable nature, and that was his reason for bringing the matter forward. Mr EYES said he did not intend to include the Hon Dr Renwick in any remarks made in alluding to Beauchamp, so that he had nothing to withdraw, and therefore decided not to make any apology. NATIVE RESERVES. Mr TAIAROA asked the Minister for Native Affairs if the Governor ever gave any authority to the Europeans to purchase the lands belonging to the Maoris of the Ngaitahu Tribe ? Also, what authority the said Europeans had to make reserves for the Maoris ? Also, whether the deeds of purchase and the documents executed by them (the Europeans) making reserves for the Maoris are void, or whether they are still in force ? Mr GISBORNE said it was true the Government had, from time to time, appointed commissioners, and the Native Minister had given them the authority referred .to on the assumption that they had power to do so. The reserves made by them were still in legal existence. If there was any case in which the hon member had any doubt upon the subject, he should draw the attention of the Government to it so that they would be able to give a categorical answer. To a general question of the kind put he could only give a general answer, but the Government would give its attention to the matter. CASE OF A. S. DREYER. Mr EYES moved that the recommendations of the Public Petitions Committee and the select committee on the petition of Alex. Sreyer, that the petitioner should receive a Crown grant, be agreed to. Mr GISBORNE said the Government had no objection to make out the grant if they could legally do so. RAILWAYS BILL. The Hon Mr GISBORNE moved for leave to introduce a bill intituled an Act to make provision for the construction of certain Railways and other Works under the Immigration and Public Works Aots, out of moneys authorised to be raised under the Immigration and Public Works Loan Act, 1870.
BAILWAY BETWEEN WAJRARAPA AND WELLINGTON . Mr Wakefield’s motion on this subject lapsed in consequence of the absence of the hon member. tabanaki share op the loan. Mr CARRING-TON moved that, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the money to be appropriated under the Immigration and Public Works Loan Act, 1870, be so apportioned that the province of Taranaki may be fairly aided in a work of urgency and of vital importance ; and that this House will, on Tuesday next, resolve itself into a committee of the whole to consider of an address to his Excellency the Governor, requesting him to recommend the sum of forty-five thousand pounds (£45,000), for the purpose of constructing harbor works at New Plymouth, in accordance with the plans and estimates ordered last session to be submitted this session for adoptien, or such modification thereof as this House may be pleased to direct. The hon member explained that in the province of Taranaki there were 2,176,000 acres of land, 1,400,000 of which was of the very first quality. Of this latter amount 700,000 acres were in the hands of the Government, and about 700,000 more in the hands of the natives, so that they really had no money with which to execute this very necessary work. He might explain that in consequence of the difficulty of communication by sea the people had, recently, been six weeks without any such- communication at all. All the trade of the place was done by small boats, but these boats did not go out in very rough weather on account of the danger; a danger by which a great number of lives might be lost, and by which a good many cargoes had been entirely destroyed by the boats getting swamped. The boat harbor he proposed was not exactly the same as that recommended by Messrs Balfour and Boyne, but was inside the inner reef. From the assurance of the Government he had no doubt they would give every encouragement to the matter. Mr GISBORNE said that in the Public Works and Immigration Act the spending of money was confined to certain works, amongst which harbor works were not included. If the House wished to see harbor works constructed they must authorise the raising of another loan, oralter the appropriation of the present act, and then they would have to treat all the harbor works of the colony alike. But this was really an urgent work and the Government proposed, as they had so much of the confiscated lands of the provinces in their possession, to set apart a portion of that land as an endowment, so that the province might, as in the case of the Oamaru Dock, borrow money for the purpose of making the harbor. The Government would make every effort to extend the communication between Wanganui and New Plymouth. As soon as possible the Defence Minister would make it his business to endeavor to settle all the native difficulties in the province with a view to the carrying out of the provisions of the Public Works Act. The motion was agreed to. PERMANENT CHANGES. Mr STEWARD moved that in the opinion of this House it is desirable that all the items now included in the annual estimates under *hehead of “ permanent charges ” should be Voted by the House, with the exception of the Governor’s salary, the salaries of the Judges and Ministers of the Crown, and the items payable under the Loan Act, Treasury Bills, Pension Acts, and the Public Debts Apportionment Act. That with a view to the carrying of tne foregoing resolution into effect, the Government be requested to prepare a bill during the recess, and to submit the same to this House at the commencement of next session. He did not object to the payment of any amount for salaries so long as the colony could afford it, but he considered that the House should have it in their power to say what those salaries should be. He brought forward the resolution now so that the Government would have timely warning, and come down to the House next session prepared for such a change. Mr VOGEL said he had not had time to go over the acts to see how far engagements entered into would be affected by the passing of such a resolution, and it would not be right that they should commit any breach of good faith. The resolution would include the officers of the House. That was a question that had been very fully discussed in a former session, and it was then found that it was undesirable that the salaries of the officers of the House should be under the control of the Government. The resolution would also affect other acts, and he thought it would be unwise at so late a period of the session. For instance, it would affect the Jurors Act of last session, by which common jurors were paid, and he could never see why common jurors should not be paid as well as special jurors. There was also the subsidy to the University, and it was undesirable that that should be interfered with. Although he quite agreed that they should have control of the salaries, he thought the question should be postponed. He would therefore, in a friendly spirit, move the previous question. Mr Shephebd and Mr Reynolds thought the Colonial Treasurer should not have opposed such a motion. They altogether objected to the growing system of appropriating the salaries by act. If this system were carried much further there would be no necessity for the meeting of the House at all. That was a very undesirable state of things, so that the Colonial Treasurer, instead of moving the previous question, should permit an expression of opinion to be taken. Mr Wood, Mr Macandbew, and Mr M'Leod supported the motion. Mr Vogel said if it were understood that the carrying of the motion should mean that the Government were to carry out the spirit and not the letter
of the motion, he would withdraw the amendment. The motion was then put and agreed to. COUNTY OP WESTLAND ACT. Mr WHITE withdrew a motion to the effect “ That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that clause 93 of the County of Westland Act, 1868, which provides that no rate shall be made by the Road Boards of the County, unless the Board shall have first received the written sanction of the County Chairman, be repealed.” His reason was that if the motion were carried it would necessitate the bringing in of a bill, and, deferring to the wish of the House, that none but business of importance to the country should now be dealt with, he was willing to withdraw the motion. .Motion withdrawn. MALT AND HOPS. On the calling of a motion placed on the paper by Mr Lightbatd, “ That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable to increase the duties on malt and hops, to assimilate in these items the tariff in this colony to that of Victoria ; such increase to be included in the measure about to be brought down by the Government, imposing a duty on cereals, rice, and timber.” Mr VOGEL said the forms of the House prevented a member from bringing down a proposal of this kind without the direct sanction of the Crown. If the Government saw that it was likely to receive the general support of members, they would bring down a proposal on the subject. THE NEXT SESSION OP PABLIAMENT. Mr WOOD, in moving that in the opinion of this House the next session of the Assembly be held at Dunedin, said it did not necessarily follow that the place which happened to be the seat of the Government of the colony should also be the place for the holding of the Legislature. When Auckland was the seat of Government, resolutions of this kind were brought on almost every session, and in the session of 1862, for the first time, the plaGe of the meeting of the Legislature was fixed to be at Wellington, but that did not entail any great disadvantage to the Executive Government of the colony. In the following year again the session was held in Auckland, but the Government of the day strongly advised his Excellency the Governor that the sessions of the Parliament should be held in Wellington, and soon after that the seat of Government was removed, and the meetings of Parliament have always been held here since. But since it had been removed to Wellington there had been many resolutions brought before the House of the kind he now proposed. The fact of the matter was, that the mere fact of Wellington being the seat of Government did not confer any vested right to its being also the seat of the Legislature. That right had been challenged nearly every year, and this being a new Parliament it was not very strange that it should be again challenged. Of course there were many conveniences in having the seat of Government in the place where the Parliament was being held. The facility with which returns could be furnished was undeniable, and there were many other obvious advantages connected with it, but at the Bametime he thought he would succeed in showing that it would be beneficial to the public interest that there should be a change of the seat of the Legislature. There would be no great increase of expense by a change of the kind, because circumstances were not now the same as they were a few years ago. The existence of telegraph communication removed one of the most difficult objections. If the session were held at Dunedin the Government could obtain any information desired by the House, and could communicate almost as readily with the officers of the different departments by means of the wires as they could now through the offices here, so that there was really no practical objection to be urged on that ground. But in any case the expense need not being great. In one respect there would be a considerable saving to the public, in the abolition of the Hansard. That publication had been in existence since 1866, and the necessity for it was caused by the fact that Parliament had been removed to a place where the public press of the province was not equal to reporting the debates that took place in the House. When the sessions were held in Auckland the press of that city were equal to publishing very accurate and very full reports of the important debates, while those of less interest were compressed in such a manner that the public at large had full information of everything that was being done in the House ; but it was found, in the removal of the seat of Government that the debates of the Parliament were not fully represented by the local press and the result was the establishment of Haneard. He had no doubt whatever that if the Legislature were removed to Dunedin the public press of that city would be found equal to giving full reports of the debates that took place in the House. In that city there is ample accommodation of every kind for carrying on the business of Parliament, so that no inconvenience would be likely to arise from the want of accommodation. So far he had shown that there would be no great inconvenience, but he would prove that there would be positive advantages arising from a temporary changes. One of those advantages would bo that as the representatives of different parts of the colony are now called upon to legislate upon a different class of subjects than heretore, namely, the public works to be erected in the various parts of the colony, it would be very material to them to have that amount of local knowledge and information of all kinds that they would be likely to acquire by holding the sessions of Parliament in a place different to the one in which they held them at present. For instance, if they were to hold their meetings at Canterbury and Otago, they would be in a position to better ascertain the requirements of the country than they could possibly
be in Wellington, and therefore, when they were about to enter upon the consideration of those great questions of immigration and public works, it would be greatly to the public advantage that the sessions should be held in those places where the members would be able to see something of the workings of those local institutions which were about to pass away, and which had done a vast amount of public good. Members would be able to see whether it would be advantageous or disadvantageous that the Parliament should move from one place to another. Then again, it would not only be advantageous to the members themselves, but advantageous to the public if the sessions of the Assembly were held occasionally away from Wellignton. If they were to remove to Dunedin, there would be more chance of their being brought into connection with the people of the colony. Therefore, he thought it desirable not only that they should hold the next session at Dunedin, but that the succeeding one should be held at Christchurch. He would move “that in the opinion of this House it is desirable that the next session be held at Dunedin.” Mr LIGHTBRAND moved the insertion of the word “ Nelson ” for that of “ Dunedin.”
Mr REID would have no objection if the hon member would assure them that there was provision made in Nelson for ting the members. Mr MAC ANDREW thought for the sake of stereotyping the unity of the colony it was highly desirable that they should have pexdpatetic Parliaments. A great advantage that would be obtained would be the abolition of the Hansard, because he felt sure that the papers there would publish the proceedings vex-batim. They might advantageously hold a session without attempting to make fresh laws. They might well do without the hundred and fifty bills introduced every year. Mr LIGHTBRAND said thei’e was every accommodation in Nelson. They had the Provincial Hall, and every requisite would be provided by the people. Mr HAUGHTON agreed with the suggestion of Mr Macandrew that they should discontinue tinkering with the laws. Some such plan as that adopted in the Roman Parliament should be adopted here, namely, that every member who introduced a bill should appear with a rope round his neck, so that if his bill or amendment were rejected he should be immediately strangled. Mr FOX saw no very great strength in the arguments adduced in favor of the motion. Members might remove the seat of Government and not find any gi’eaier amount of comfort than was to be found in Wellington. There was the advantage that there were not many fascinating social meetings, or field sports, or race meetings to distract membei’s from their, legitimate business. Another reason given was that the press of Wellington was not equal to publishing daily reports of every day’s debates. The argument was a very weak one, because when the sessions were held in Auckland they were no better than were produced in Wellington after the removal of the Seat of Government. There were complaints made in the House every day of the wretched nature of the reports published by the Auckland papers. So that that objection was not of much weight. The strongest reason of the whole, but on which the hon member had said least, was the question of expense. Thei-e could not be any doubt that the increase in the expense that would be caused by the change would be a very strong reason against the removal of the Parliament to Dunedin.
The mover having replied, a division was called for, the result being : —Ayes, 40; Noes, 20.
Ayes —Wood, Bathgate, Gillies, Webster, R» Richardson, Shepherd, J. E. Brown, Maeandrew, Harrison, M'Glashan, Reid, W. Kelly, Steward, Earnall, O’Rorke, Murray, Shephard, Henderson, Reeves, Katene, MTherson, Swainson, Bradshaw, O’Conor, Munro, Karaitiana, Peacock, E. Richardson, Parata, Lightband, J. C. Brown, Ormond, Cantrell, Curtis, Thomson, Taiaroa, O’Neill, M'Gillivray, Creighton, Carrington, Noes. —Stud.holme, Collins, Gisborne, J. Kelly, Clark, Eyes, Karslake, Rhodes, Bryce, Hunter, Tribe, Parker, Fox, Williamson, Pearce, Andrew, Fitzherbert, Johnston, Ingles, and Parker. Mr CREIGHTON gave notice that next day he would move a motion informing his Excellency the Governor that any expenses incuiTed in the removal of the Seat of the Legislature will be voted by the House; A COUNTY SYSTEM. Mr MURRAY moved (1.) That, in the opinion of this House, the system of Government in New Zealand is ruinously expensive and inefficient, and requires amendment. (2.) That New Zealand should be conveniently divided into counties, retaining generally where suitable present parliamentary electoral registration divisions ; such counties being subdivided into districts, the ratepayers in which to elect county board of local management for local public works, education, licensing, forests and commonage, with power to make by-laws, to levy county rates, and also special rates in districts by consent for such special rates of two-thirds of the ratepayers as to value in such districts. (3.) The counties to be grouped into provinces—two in the North and three in the Middle island—for purposes of revenue and co-operation. The Mayors and one or more of the members of each county board forming the provincial board. (4.) All state revenues whatever raised in a province to be paid into the Treasury in such province, out of which to be paid auch proportion of interest and sinking fund of consolidated loans as shall be determined, and such proportion as shall be justly due for public colonial works. But for the Legislative. Government, Administration of Justice and matters connected therewith, Post Office and services connected therewith, Customs, Telegraphs, Lighthouses,
Defence, Imperial, Intercolonial, and foreign relations, and all matters of legislative and federal nature, there shall be contributed by each province only in proportion to the number of its representatives to Parliament, and such representation to be based upDn population and wealth. All surplus to belong to the provincial board. That the Government during the recess shall prepare a bill for the purpose of giving effect to these resolutions. The hon member, in a short speech, stated that he did not expect, at that late period of the session, that the subject would be entered into with any desire to see it carried out, and for that reason it was his intention to withdraw the motion, although he desired to have some little discussion upon it. After giving some statistics on the mode of government in other countries, and the proportion of representation, Mr Murray requested to be allowed to withdraw his motion, but this was objected to b y
Mr REYNOLDS, who desired to see that part of the resolution affirming the desirability of inaugurating a county system put to the vote. On division the first two clauses were negatired, and the arrival of the dinner hour disposed of the remainder. DISEASED CATTLE BILL. The amendments made in the Legislative Council in this bill were taken into consideration but after some discussion further consideration was postponed until to-morrow. SECOND HEADINGS. The Crown Grants Act Amendment Bill was read a second time. It provides to reenact the provision contained in the act of 1866, reserving the right on the part of the Government to make roads through all propei’ty for which a Crown Gi’ant, had been issued. The East Coast District Land Titles Validation Bill, and the Poverty Bay Grants Act Amendment Bill, were read a second time. THIRD HEADINGS. The Supreme Court Offices Bill and the Native Schools Act Amendment Bill were read a third time and passed. MESSAGE EBOM LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The SPEAKER announced that he had received a message from the Legislative Council, stating that they insisted upon the amendments made by them in the Wellington Special Settlements Bill. The amendments were ordered to be considered tomorrow. CANTEEBURY WASTE LANDS BILL. Mr BROWN moved the second reading of this bill, the principal object of which was to permit the sale of land on deferred payments. Mr RHODES opposed the bill, which he thought should have emanated from the Provincial Council. The only occasion on which he had ever heard anything of this desire for land on deferred payments was during the election times. There was no necessity for any alteration in the Canterbury land laws. He would move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr ROLLESTON seconded the amendment. Mr REEVES complained that no reason had been given for such a course as that taken by the members for Akaroa and Avon. The argument that they should wait till some movement on the part of the Provincial Council was very weak. If they were to wait till that time they would have to wait till the lapse of the present Council. The provisions of the bill had been carefully framed. It guarded against the land falling into the hands of the large capitalist, and provided that it should be occupied by those only who were bona fide settlers. The bill provided that the purchaser of land on deferred payments should not have any right to the exercise of political power, specially depriving them of the right to vote. He hoped to see the bill passed as a means of forwarding the policy of the Government. Mr ROLLESTON thought such an alteration as the bill proposed should receive more consideration at the hands of the people of the province. It was not right that a bill affecting so much of the property of all classes of the country who had spent large sums of money on the lands of the province should be passed without some expression of public opinion, nor was it right that laws which had received so much commendation from all who were qualified to judge in such matters should be dealt with in the manner proposed by the bill. He did not think it right to say that the system was wrong when there were a larger amount of holdings in the province of Canterbui*y than in any other province. Statistics showed that the province produced more grain than any one of the provinces of the colony. The system of deferred payments had been tried and failed in other colonies, and it was proposed, without any good show of reason, that they should adopt such a system. He hoped the bill would not be passed before the people of the province had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon it. Mr BROWN was sorry the member for the Avon did not support the bill. He was as well acquainted with public opinion in the province as the hon member, and he believed that fifteen out of every twenty of the people would vote for such a bill. The system of land agency had been productive of very great injustice in the province. He was sorry the member for Avon had thought proper to raise a cry that would give rise to unseemly agitations in that province. The object of the bill was to allow the sons of men who had not sufficient funds to start them in agricultural pursuits to go on the land and farm for themselves. The bill was opposed to the old slow coach space of the member for Avon, but he hoped the House would consent to read it a second time.
A division being called for on the second reading, the result was—Ayes, 41 j Noes, 17.
WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENT BILL. Messrs Fitzherbert, Pearce, and Bunny, were appointed to represent the House of Representives in a free conference on the amendments made by the Legislative Council in this bill. CASE OF JOHN KELLY. The House went into committee to consider an address to be presented to His Excellency the Governor, requesting him to cause the necessary steps to be taken to give effect to the recommendations of the public petitions committee in the case of John Kelly. The adoption of the vote was carried by the casting vote of the chairman, the numbers being—Ayes, 17 ; Hoes, 17. On the question that the resolution be reported to the Honse, a second division took place, the result of which was Ayes, 23 ; Noes, 16. The resolution was then reported. The House was adjourned at a quarter to one. Thursday, October 26. The Speaker took the chair at 3.30. BAIL WAY BETWEEN WANGANUI AND TARANAKI. Mr BRYCE asked the Colonial Secretary whether the Government had received any proposals for the construction of a line of railway between Wanganui and Taranaki, payment to be taken in land at 20s per acre ; and if so, whether the Government entertain favorably Such proposals ? Mr GISBORNE, said papers already laid on the table of the* House showed what were the proposals of the gentlemen named. The purport of their proposal was that they should be chiefly paid in land for the construction of the line. The Government had not entertained the proposal, because they had not yet decided that the railway should be made, because they had arranged that trams only should be constructed in many parts of the country, and probably the line between Wanganui and Taranaki would be included in those districts were trams were to be erected. He might add that generally the Government objected to payment in land for such works. PIOTON AND BLENHEIM RAILWAY.
Mr EYES asked the Minister for Public Works if the Government are in possession of information to satisfy them that the construction of the railway between Picton and Blenheim will involve the expenditure of a larger sum per mile than is authorised by the Public Works Act of last session ; and if so, if they will be prepared to recommend the House to make such further provision as may be necessary to carry out that work ? Mr GISBORNE said the Government were not yet in possession of any definite information on the subject which would enable them to say positively whether it was probable that the construction of the line would exceed the sum authorised by the Assembly last year, but from other information received by the Government they considered there was a probability that the amount required would exceed the estimate, and in order to meet any deficiency that might arise they would ask the Assembly to vote a larger sum, not necessarily to be expended, but to have something in hand to meet in case the construction of the railway went beyond the amount asked for last year. THE BROGDEN CONTRACTS. The House went into committee further to consider the contract entered into between the Government and the Messrs Brogden. The Chairman having read the resolution before the House “ That the committee having before it the two contracts of Messrs Brogden recommend that contract No 1 be not accepted, and also that the amendment “ that contracts No. 1 and 2 entered into by the Colonial Treasurer with the Messrs Brogden are highly detrimental to the interests of the colony, and all contracts for the construction of railways under the Public Works Act should be let by public tender, and that payment should not be made in land or guarantee but by cash only.” Mr BATHGATE, whose speech we cannot do justice to in this issue, was the first to address the comnrttee. Mr REYNOLDS moved as an addition to the motion of the Colonial Treasurer :—“ And further recommends that the Government negotiate with the Messrs Brogden for the modification and extension of No. 2 contract, or the substitution of one in its place as nearly as possible to the following effect That Messrs Brogden and Sons construct such railways, authorised or to be authorised by the Assembly, as it may be agreed shall be offered to them, to the amount of £1,000,000, at prices to be agreed to between them and the Government, such prices being within the limits fixed by the legislature. Messrs Brogden and Sons to state the price at which they are willing to construct each railway, and the Government to be at liberty to refuse or accept the offer. Payment to be made in debentures, bearing 5i per cent interest, or in cash, at the option of the Government. In the event of the Government and Messrs Brogden and Sons not being able to agree as to the construction of railways under those provisoes, the Government or Messrs Brogden and Sons, on notice to that effect being given by either party, to be bound to carry out No. 2 contract. Mr CALDER thought if the addition were accepted it would really be setting aside the contract. This fixed the price, while contract No 2 decided that it should be settled by arbitration. That was a direct contradiction. Mr WOOD saw no conflict at all. It merely got rid of the most objectionable portion of the contract, namely, that providing that the payment should be decided by arbitration. By arbitration they would be left to the chapter of accidents, because in the case of dispute the contractor appointed an arbitrator, and the Government appointed another ; then an umpire was appointed who might not know anything about what he had to decide. That was what he objected to ; they would never know what their railways were to cost.
Mr J. E. BROWN objected to the amendment. If it were proposed that cash payments were to be made then he should propose that the contracts should be thrown open to public competition. With a view of testing the opinion of the House he would propose the omission of the words “ or in cash.”
Mr YOGEL said as it was desirable that the Government should express an opinion on such an amendment, he would say at once that they were willing to accept the amendment.
Mr Shepherd objected to the power proposed to be given to the Government; and Mr Wakefield insisted upon the contracts being open to competition.
Mr ROLLESTON said that the Government had, because he had asked for the production of the Attorney-General’s opinion, foi’ced him into one of two positions, either that he wished to deal unfairly with the Messrs Brogden, or that he should bring down a want of confidence. He altogether objected to the amendment of the lion member for Dunedin, which proposed to double the liability under the contract. He should divide the House upon it. Mr YOGEL was glad the hon member had stated his intention to divide the House, because then the Government would see who were and who were not in favor of the construction of the railways. He did not wish it to be understood that the question was looked upon as a party one by the Government. Mr BUNNY said he was astonished at the announcements made by the Government. Last night they were told by the Premier that they would make the question a ministerial one, and now they were told that they did not look upon it as a party one. Ho hoped the Government would not give signs of such weakness. There was no doubt whatever that the contract was not within the power of the Colonial Treasurer, but were the Government to be in the position of a parcel of clerks. They should not be bound down by the law. They should come down boldly and say what they were prepared to do, and there was a party in the House that would support them. Mr STAFFORD was not at all surprised at Mr Bunny’s disrespect for the law ; that was no new fact; but he was surprised that the hon member for the Avon did not see through the “ arrangement” by which the amendment was brought before the House. It was well known that the Government intended to get some one to doit, and the only difficulty was who that member should be. He saw no objection to the letting of the contract to Messrs Brogden as well as to anybody else; indeed he saw advantages from the presence of such gentlemen in the country. But he did not see why we should not construct our railways by small contracts as well as by largß ones. The contracts for the railways in Canterbury and elsewhere in the colony were not failures, but he saw that the proposal now made was the only way out of the mess, because they were in a mess until some such proposal was made. He should not vote with his friend the member for Avon. Mr YOGEL said the remarks of Mr Bunny were disingenuous and ungenerous. With regard to the remarks of the member for Avon, he hoped he would not press the amendment to a division, because it would only show what he did not desire to show, that the Government would be triumphant by a large majority. He wished to avoid anything of the kind, because it was not the desire of the Government that the discussion should assume any party form. The Government desired to accept suggestions from all parts of the House. Mr REID was sorry to hear the hon member for Timaru consent to the additional amount incurred under the contract with Messrs Brogden proposed by the amendment. He did not wish to make any party matter of it, but he hoped the hon member for Avon would press his intention to divide the House. They had been told that the workmen were to receive so much greater consideration under the contract with Messrs Brogden, but that merely meant nothing at all. Was it to be supposed that Messrs Brogden cared anything for the workmen ? As far as he had ever seen, the object of investing capital was to obtain as good a return for it as possible, and be did not suppose the Brogden’s were any great exception. There was no doubt that as soon the works were to be started Messrs Brogden would sub-let the works. Members spoke as if we were going to construct thousands of miles of railways, but the fact was we were going to do nothing more than we could do ourselves. The Victorian Government commenced by letting their railway works in large contracts, but they were now, after all their experience, coming back to the small contract system. He hoped the member for Avon would divide the House. Mr J. E. BROWN supported No 2 contract as it stood, and opposed the amendment proposed by Mr Reynolds. Mr G. M'LEAN was one who attached great importance topublicmeetings, buthe could not help seeing that the matter of the contracts had been placed before the public at the meetings at Christchurch, Dunedin, and Wellington, in an unfair light. He looked upon the No. 2 contract as so very favorable to the colony that he could not understand how Messrs Brogden entered into it, and if they had been induced to go into it under any misapprehension he would say release them from it and let the whole of your railways be thrown open to competition. He altogether objected to the making of such contracts in private. The House should have had the opportunity of ratifying them before they were made binding. He altogether objected to the arbitration principle contained in the contract. Mr FITZHERBERT did not intend to go into any disquisition on railways, but he could not help remarking upon the speech of the member for Dunedin (Mr Bathgate.) That speech, while telling them that the contract was the finest thing in the world, went on to say that they should be very careful and cau*
tious before entering upon it j nor could he help remarking upon the conduct of the hon member for Timaru, which he thought highly creditable to him. That hon member had displayed all the characteristics of the statesman in emancipating himself from the trammels of party, and accepting the compromise, for it was nothing more than a compromise, of the hon member for Dunedin (Mr Reynolds). But be objected to that part of the amendment proposed by Mr Reynolds that they should be bound by the No. 2 contract. There was no doubt, as had been pointed out, that the Colonial Treasurer had exceeded his powers and that neither No. 1 contract nor No. 2 was legally binding. But because the thing was not legally done, was that any reason why they should repudiate the contracts ? No. Whether legally done or not, the colony was committed, and the country was bound to support the action of its ambassadors. He was glad to know that the colony stood so high in the opinion of the moneyed people of England, and it should be their duty to prove that repudiation formed no part of the characteristics of New Zealand. It had been pointed out that the guarantee system was objectionable, but he thought, under certain restrictions, that system was the best for us, but he considered the arbitration system a bad one. The alternative of payment for the works in debentui’es, bearing 5| per cent., or in cash, he thought a power it was desirable the Government should possess. Mr GISBORNE pointed out, referring to the remarks of Mr Bunny, that the Government had not budged one iota. The issues on which the Premier and the Colonial Treasurer had expressed their ultimatum of the Government in different directions were nob analogous. The Premier Bimply stated that if the member for Avon insisted on the opinion of the Attorney-General being taken, the Government were willing to stake their fate upon that issue. While the Colonial Treasurer had merely stated that as the question was not looked upon in the light of a party one, they would not look upon any result arrived as hostile. He could only say that the workmen had been misled, and that the contract was likely to do as much good to the workmen of the colony as if the works bad been taken up by colonial contractors He altogether denied that the action of the Colonial Treasurer in executing these contracts was ultra, vires.
Mr COLLINS did not like these contracts from the first, and he did not understand even yet why they should grant a monopoly to foreign capitalists; He knew that all his opposition would be useless, but he merely made these few observations for the sake of consistency. The rest of the debate, and Mr Vogel’s reply, we are compellad to hold over. After all the amendments had been rejected on the voices, the amendment of Mr Reynolds, by way of addition to the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, was put, and the following was the division list: —
Ayes, 45 —Messrs Bathgate, Bell, Brandon, Bunny, Cantrell, Carrington, Clark, Curtis, Farnall, Fitzherbert, Eox, Gillies, Gisborne, Harrison, Haughton, Henderson, Hunter, Johnston, Karslake, Katene, T. Kelly. W. Kelly, Kenny, Lightband, Macandrew, E. M'Glashan, D. M‘Lean, M‘Leod, M‘Pherson, O’Neill, Ormond, Parata, C. Parker, Reeves, Reynolds, J. Shepherd, Stafford, Studholme, Steward, Taiaroa, Takamoana, Tribe, Yogel, Webster, White, Williamson, Wood.
Noes, 15—Andrew, Bradshaw, J. C. Brown, J. E. Brown, Calder, Ingles, G. M'Lean, Munro, G. B. Parker, Peacock, Reid, Rolleston, T. L. Shepherd, Thompson, Wakefield. Pairs —For, Pearce ; against, Collins.
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New Zealand Mail, Issue 40, 28 October 1871, Page 4
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14,471PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Mail, Issue 40, 28 October 1871, Page 4
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