PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, October 13. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. ROXBURGH, OTAGO. Mr BRADSHAW asked the PoßtmasterGeneral whether the Government will cause an inquiry to be made with the view of ascertaining whether the building used as a post office and telegraph office, at Roxburgh, in the province of Otago, is sufficient for the purpose ; and if found on inquiry not to be ample, whether the Government will make the necessary alterations as soon as possible? Mr GISBORNE said he would cause an inquiry to be made. He was not aware himself whether there were proper quarters or not. CASE OP MACK AND DAYIS. Mr BRADSHAW asked the Premier whether the Government had caused an inquiry to be made into the allegations contained in a petition presented to this House by Charles Mack and Thomas Davis, which was promised to be made in the session of 1869, and also of 1870 ? and if the inauiry has been made, to state the result of it. Mr GISBORNE said the matter could not be taken into consideration this year, but would be referred to the Attorney-General. The charge against the men being that of smuggling, the onus probandi of disproving the charge rested with them. It was very clear that the men were in the habit of buying up sheepwash tobacco, and converting it into tobacco fit for smoking, and having that knowledge, probably that was the reason why they had not been able to produce sufficient evidence at the time of the hearing of the case to exonerate them. Looking at the facts of the case, the Government did not consider it necessary to move further in the matter. CASE OF ALICE HART. Mr T. KELLY asked the Colonial Secretary whether the Government will give effect to the recommendations of the Public Petitions Committee in the case of Alice Hart ? Mr GISBORNE said there had been no correspondence with reference to this subject as far as he was aware, and he had not been able to obtain access to the evidence taken by the committee, but understood that if the husband of the petitioner had lived two years longer he would have been entitled to the land. He thought under those circumstances, and considering the fact that he had lost his life in the service of the colony, the person who was his legal representative was entitled to an award, but he was not sure whether the widow or the heir of the deceased was the rightful person to receive it. As the land would have to be taken out of the lands of the province of Taranaki, he would communicate with the Superintendent of that province upon the subject. general lunatic assylum. Mr ANDREW brought up the report of the Lunatic Asylum Committee. The report recommended that no action should be taken this session, but that information should be gathered during the recess, so that the matter might be better dealt with next session. The report also recommended that the asylums of the colony should be put into a state of complete reform, and that the state of the asylum at Karori should be immediately attended to. PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT OEEICERS. Mr REEYES moved that the Government be requested to obtain lists from the various provinces of the several offices under their respective Governments; the total amount of salary paid to each officer, with a full description of the duties attached to each office; and that the returns, when obtained, be published in the Gazette for general information. The hon member said he put his motion on the notice paper with the view of furthering what was now a very popular object—retrenchment. Hon members were aware that a full list was published annually of the General Government officers, with the duties and salaries attached to each office, and as he believed, in common with a great many other members, that the onjy possible reform in which any material retrenchment could take place in the civil service was by an amalgamation of offices, and the General Government had already announced their intention to take over some of the duties of the Provincial Governments, it would be advantageous to the public generally if a list of the kind mentioned in his motion were published. Mr REYNOLDS thought if retrenchment ■was desirable in the Provincial Governments, it was also desirable in the General Government. He would move the addition of the words “ together with a similar return of offices in the colonial service.” Mr GISBORNE said the printing of a list of all the officers of both services would be very expensive. Mr REYNOLDS; was quite aware of that, but said that the printing of the lists would enable members to see what offices should be combined, which was the only way to effect retrenchment. The motion was agreed to. MR KEMP’S DEED. Mr Taiaroa moved that Mr Kemp’s deed, dated the 12th June, 1848, be ordered to be printed in Maori and English. Agreed to. FIRST READINGS. The following bills were read a first time : A bill intituled “An Act to amend * the Civil Service Act, 1866; a bill to make provision for dedicating the One Tree Hill Reserve, in the province of Auckland, as an endowment for the purpose of promoting education in the town of Onehunga ; and a bill intituled “An Act for regulating the plan of towns and breadth of ptreets.” LAW PRACTITIONERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr O’ROKKE, in moving the second reading of this bill, said it was not his intention to go over the painful circumstances connected with the necessity for the introduction of such
a measure. He would not have the presumption to ask the House to pass a measure which would have the aspect of attempting to reverse the decision in the course taken by the courts. It would be remembered that the House by passing the act of 1866 did a Gruel wrong to a gentleman who had been admitted to the ranks of the legal profession after mature consideration on the part of the judges, who were the proper custodians of the honor of the bar, and they had travelled beyond their legitimate functions by passing an ex post facto law. He was. a member of the House at the time the bill was passed, but was not aware, nor were any other members of the House, that the bill was intended to affect Mr Smythies. The bill now before the House simply put Mr Smythies in the same position in which the judges put him, and he hoped the House would not act, so cruelly as to keep that gentleman in the position of being unable to obtain the means of subsistence.
Mr G. M'LEAN said the reason why he intended to oppose the bill was not on account of the manner in which the hon member who had moved the second reading had put forward the claims of Mr Smythies. He was not going into the merits of the question why, twenty-five years after the commission of a crime, Mr Smythies should be allowed to practice or not. His reason for opposing the second reading was on account of Mr Smythies’ objectionable conduct after he was admitted to practice in New Zealand.
Mr ROLLESTON opposed the bill. He was extremely grieved that such a painful case bad come before the House, but he resisted the bill because he considered it would be committing an act of discredit on the proceedings of the House.
Mr YOGEL said he should support the bill, because there was no reason why iu considering the justice of the present case they should punish Mr Smythies for some other offence. He doubted whether it was competent for them to review the decision of an English court by referring to Mr Smythies’ former offence, the prosecution in which case, he had no doubt at all, was a vindicitive one. The published facts very clearly proved that. He supported the second reading on the ground that the judges were well aware of all the circumstances of his case at the time they admitted him, and that the members of the bar in New Zealand were also privy to all the circumstances, and had plenty of opportunity of opposing bis admission if they desired to do so. He would state fearlessly that the clause disbarring Mr Smythies was introduced in the bill in a surreptitious way during its passage through the Upper House. As a member of the Lower House, although he had , taken an interest in the case at the time the bill was before them, he would say that he never heard anything of the clause by which Mr Smythies was disbarred, nor, he believed, were the members of the Upper House themselves. The case came before them not as an untried case ; it was a case which had been tried and settled by the Judges. The hon member who introduced the bill now before the House deserved the highest approbation for having done so, and had earned the right to their sincere thanks. Mr GILLIES opposed the motion, denying that the bar ever bad any opportunity of opposing Mr Smythies’ admission. The only “ opportunity” the profession had, which, was a mere play upon words, was when they were told by the Judges they might express an opinion, but that their decision was already arrived at. Mr BATHGATE, as a member of the bar, would support the second reading. Whatever crime had been committed by Mr Smythies had been atoned for by a long series of persecution. Mr GISBORNE .supported the second reading, on the ground that it was repugnant to English law that they should legislate in an ex post facto direction. The facts of the case were that Mr Smythies had been admitted by the Judges with all the circumstances of the case before them j the profession had every opportunity of objecting to his admission; that after his admission he made himself obnoxious to the profession, who then became suddenly virtuous, and procured the insertion of a clause into the bill of 1866, during its passage through the Upper House, the effect of which was not known to members at the time, or there was no doubt it would have been rejected. Mr FOX denied the statement of Mr Yogel that the clause under which Mr Smythies was disbarred was inserted in a surreptitious manner, or that the members of the House ever had any opportunity of protesting against his admission. As to the Judges having admitted Mr Smythies to practice, after careful investigation, they did nothing of the kind; they took no pains to procure evidence of the circumstances connected with MrSmy thies’ trial atthe Old Bailey, which evidenee was procured, after his admission, by a member of the bar, but was, of course, too late, the mischief having been done. He objected to the passing of a bill which would permit the throwing into society of a man whose presence among them would be worse than that of a wolf in a slieep-fold. Mr Shepherd supported the bill, and Mr Pearce opposed it. Mr O’RORKE, in reference to the statement that the profession had no notice of Mr Smythies’ intention to apply to be admitted, stated that he had seen a notice to that effect posted in the Supreme Court, Auckland, for three months before he was admitted. He was informed also that the same had been done in every Supreme Court in the colony. Mr O’Rorke quoted passages from Mr Fox’s letter to Sir George Arney, written in reply to the Chief Justice’s threat to strike him (Mr Fox) off the roll, to prove that the action of that gentleman with regard to this matter was one-sided, inconsistent, unjust, and cruel.
IN COMMITTEE. The House having gone into committee on the bill, Mr Macandrew proposed the insertion of a clause to allow the time served by Mr Smythies’ articled cleiks to stand good. This was agreed to. Mr Bathgate proposed the insertion of a clause to make good the time of persons who had been articled to lawyers who had omitted to take out the proper certificate, which omission invalidated the claim of such persons to their articles. This was agreed to. The bill was then reported to the House with amendments, which were ordered to be considered on Wednesday. NATIVE SCHOOLS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr D. M'LEAN, in moving the second reading of this bill, pointed out beneficial results accruing from the peace which had existed during recent years. In many of the native districts, schools established both by the present Government and the former one were now in a flourishing condition. Katene, Tairoa, and Takamoana spoke in favor of the bill, expressing a hope that in the future the European and Maori children would be seen intermingling in the schools. They thought the missionaries had not made very good use of the land given over by the natives. He would like to see these lands, even now, devoted to the education of Maori children. Taiaroa inquired whether the Government would be willing to educate those Maori children who were without parental protection or means of paying the expense of education. Mr M'LEAN said the suggestion would be attended to. Mr SWANSON also desired to see the mixture of the children of the two races. The language of the playground was the language of the nation, and he hoped to see the children in the northern provinces mixing in the schools, as he was happy to see them mix in the schools of Wellington. The second reading was agreed to. TREASURY BILLS BILL.
This bill, providing for the issue of Treasury Bills to the amount of £90,000, which were not to have currency beyond the 30th June, 1873, was considered in committee. Mr WOOD drew the attention of the House to the fact that this bill was merely to. cover the difference between the Treasurer’s estimates and the actual receipts. He saw no use in opposing the bill now that the expenditure it was intended to meet had been incurred. The Government, during the recess, were well aware that the revenue was declining, and * they should have made every endeavor to keep down the expenditure. Instead of doing this they had gone on expending money on a lavish system of land transfer, and, in addition to that had entered on that expensive contract, the San Francisco service. He merely drew attention to these matters to show how necessary it was in the future that they should hedge with precautions the engagements of the colony. The necessity for these Treasury kills should act as a caution to the House. Mr GISBORNE said the Government were not responsible for the falling off of the revenue. If the Government had exceeded the appropriations the members might have had some reason to complain. Mr STAFFORD said it was not compulsory on the Government to spend the appropriations ; it was rather permissive ; so that the Government, when they saw that fclieir expectations in revenue were not being fulfilled, should have curtailed their expenditure; else what would be the use of a Government at all.
Mr VOGEL said the estimates of last year were conjectural, and were made at an early date at the wish of the House itself. With respect to the expenditure for the year 1870-71, there was an unauthorised expenditure of £34,000, which was within the limit sanctioned by law, which permitted the expenditure of £40,000, while the total savings amounted to £IOI,OOO. Mr THOMSON thought he should be permitted to make a few remarks on the subject. The Colonial Treasurer had stated that the financial estimate of last year was a conjectural one, but that did not occur to him (Mr Thomson) in reading the statement. The fact was that the hon gentleman estimated that he would have a surplus of £78,000. He also stated that there was a certain amount due from the Wanganui bridge, and another from the Patea settlers. So sure was the hon gentleman that there would be this amount of surplus, that he spoke as if we were to be in a very good position indeed by this time, and that the only question for the House would be what would they do with the money j whether we should appropriate it, or whether we should allow it to go towards paying off part of the loan. He was stating exactly bow the matter stood, and it was hardly right that the hon gentleman should come down to the House and say that the statement was conjectural. The Colonial Treasurer was very wrong in not husbanding the revenue of the colony. He was told over and over again last year by an hon member that he had estimated the revenue at far too high an amount, and as time rolled on it came out that he had over-estimated the revenue, and under those circumstances the Government should have done what a private individual would have done, to incur no fresh responsibility if he could avoid doing so ; but what does he do ? He goes to San Francisco and involves the country in a certain amount of indebtedness; goes on to England, and comes back by the same route. All that could not be done for nothing, and really, considering that there was every probability that the revenue would not amount to anything like the amount estimated, it was wrong of the Government to incur these responsibilities, He did not like this bill at all. It looked very bad indeed. He would prefer to see the money paid off at
once, rather than see it added to the indebtedness of the country. It looked like making an arrangement with their creditors by saying, “We will pay you a portion of what wo owe you now, and we hope, in three years, to get the whole thing scored off’.’* 71 looked very bad indeed in this great country, as it was the habit to call it, to Bpeak so much about making arrangements with their creditors. He would prefer to see the money paid off at once, for they would have to pay it off some time. The bill was then read a third time and passed. THE SHAREBROKERS BILL. This bill was committed and an amendment carried, which subverted the whole object of the bill by making the fees payable to the provinces instead of to the General Government. Thereupon, Mr Yogel moved that the Chairman do report progress, stating that the Government would have to postpone the consideration of the bill. If the legitimate sources of revenue of tlie Government were diverted it would be impossible for them to carry on the business of the country. He might say that he brought in the bill on the suggestions of many hon members, and he was taken by surprise by the vote just arrived it. Subsequently, on representations made by several members, Mr Yogel consented to withdraw his intention of abandoning the bill and promised to bring it in again at an early date. The Chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday. IMPRISONMENT EOR DEBT ABOLITION BILL. Mr GISBORNE, in moving the second reading, said its object was to abolish imprisonment for debt, with certain exceptions. The bill was quite in agreement with the law of England. Mr FOX, in answer to a question, said the Insolvency Bill bad passed a joint committee of both Houses, and was reported to-day in the Upper House. Mr WOOD did not think it mattered whether the Insolvency Bill were passed or not; be did not see how it affected this measure at all. He hoped this bill would pass, so that they might abolish that relic of barbarism, which was a blot on their statute book —imprisonment for debt. The bill was read a second time. PBBLIC STORES BILL. . A bill on this subject was read a second time. JUSTICES PROTECTION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments of the Legislative Council in this bill were disagreed to, and notice given to appoint managers in a conference with the Upper House. QUALIFICATION 0E ELECTORS BILL. Mr GISBORNE moved the second reading of this bill, which provided that every man of the age of twenty-one years and upwards, having a salary of £IOO or more, which he had enjoyed for a period of six months, and having resided in one certain place for six months should, if duly registered, be entitled to vote. The second class were those who pay for their board and lodging no less than £4O, or for their lodging alone, £lO a year, provided that they occupied their lodgings for no less a period than six calendar months. The third class would bo those who were subject to be rated bub whose names were not on the electoral roll. There were at present a number of persons who paid ratss but had not sufficient property to enable them to have their placed on the roll. The Government had brought the bill i* at the request of several members and in accordance with a promise made. During the recess a bill would be prepared which should provide for a reform of the whole of the system of registration of electors and the consolidation of the electoral acts. Mr J. E. BROWN wished to point out an abuse of the privilege of voting in allowing miners to vote on all occasions by virtue of their miner’s rights. He hoped to see the privilege confined to the goldfields on which they resided. Mr WAKEFIELD called the attention of the Colonial Secretary and of the last speaker to another matter of some importance. In a bill which the hon member for Ashley proposed to bring down there was a clause preventing those who might acquire land on deferred payments from exercising the privilege to vote. He would like to see that matter remedied.
Mr ROLLESTON said there was another point to which he wished to allude. He had hoped that this year not only the Education Bill but a University Act would have been passed, and in connection with the qualification of electors ho would like to see a member of the University in the House, elected by the votes of those who had obtained degrees. If there were such a qualification introduced, it would act as a stimulus to the education of the country. Mr THOMSON was not quite pleased with the bill. It proposed to give the qualification to those who had a salary of £IOO, and were resident in the towns, while there were men in the country districts who were in just as good a condition, and were quite as well able ,to exercise the qualification, but who would not get it. He thought ploughmen were in quite as good a position to receive the voting power as those young men in the towns to whom it was proposed to give the franchise. He would prefer to see manhood suffrage introduced.
Mr SHEPHARD hoped the bill, after passing the second reading, would be withdrawn. He thought an hon member had made an error about the voting of the miners. They only voted in their own districts. Mr O’Conor and Mr Macandrew spoke in favor of manhood suffrage. Mr PARKER complained of persons holding business licenses being allowed to vote in districts with which they had no connection. Mr GISBORNE said the bill was merely a tentative measure. They had endeavored to
give the qualification of electoral right, and now they were asked to give manhood suffrage, and when they brought down a bill conferring manhood suffrage they would, no doubt, be asked to bring down one conferring woman suffrage. The Government were willing that the bill should be read a second time and then be allowed to drop, so that a more perfect measure might be brought forward next session. The bill was then read a second time. LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr CREIGHTON, in introducing the second reading of this bill, said it was generally complained that the publichouses of the country did not provide sufficient accommodation for travellers. The bill provided for this, and also that the hotels should provide stabling accommodation. The next provision was the taking of the powers out of the hands of the Justices. There could be no doubt that the powers of the Justices had been greatly abused. It would now be necessary to satisfy the magistrates that afresh publichouse was necessary in the district before a fresh license should be issued. The next important clause was that the applicant should have the signatures of one-third of the male and female inhabitants of the district. There were provisions in the bill for licensing clubs, and for issuing packet licenses. This was necessary because it was found that the coasting steamers were no better than floating publichouses. There were powers for suppressing gambling in publichouses and Sunday trading. Another provision was the punishment of habitual drunkards. A most important provision was that the husband, wife, or guardian, should take action against any publican who sold liquor to a person who might lose his life through the consumption of such liquor or from which any other accident or damage arose. The persons suffering would have a lien on the property of the publican. The most important part of the bill was what he might call the prohibitive clauses, by which it was provided that twenty persons might memoralise for the taking of a vote as tc whether the prohibitory clauses should be brought into operation or not. If two-thirds voted in favor of the clause no publichouses should be opened in that district. It would be competent, however, to take a vote in three years from the first vote. The bill also extended the right to vote to females as well as males. This was what he might call a woman’s question. There was no one who would be more affected by, or who suffered most from, the trade in intoxicating liquors than the female sex. He could not refrain from complimenting the Premier on the assistance he had given in the preparation of the bill. Mr CLARK spoke in favor of the bill, pointing out that a great deal of the success attending the movement for the better regulation of the sale of liquors was due to the press in all parts of the world, particularly that of some portions of England. He was glad this question had been brought forward. He did not think it would receive the sanction of the House this session, but if hon members tvould give their attention to the subject they would come to the conclusion at which he had arrived, that some such measure was necessary for the salvation of the country. Mr HAUGHTON hoped hon members, before they voted for the second reading, would read the bill through. He must say that he never read a more tyrannical measure. If they had made some attempt to amend the Adulteration Act they would have done some good. He feared that more people were killed by adulteration than by drinking. He would vote against the second reading. Mr BATHGATE desired to join with the mover of the motion in his thanks to the Premier for having had the courage to bring in a bill dealing with such a difficult measure. He combated the argument that the bill was a tyrannical one: on the contrary it proposed to put the power in the hands of the people. He had been engaged professionally in endeavoring to prevent the granting of licenses, but owing to the inefficiency of the present system, and the objectable use made of their power by the justices of the peace it was impossible to prevent the granting of licenses. The applicant simply tired out the objectors. They came up again and again until objections were futile. In one case in which he was concerned a license had been granted much to the detriment of the inhabitants of the neighborhood; scenes of the most disgraceful character taking place daily. If this session produced no other result than the passing of this act, and the Contractors Debts Act, they would have done great work. Mr WHITE hoped that for this session at all events this bill would share the fate of the Education Bill, because there would not he time to discuss the provisions of so great a measure. He was in favor of such a bill, hut not one which went so far. He would throw out a hint which he hoped would be taken, that meachants, as well as publicans, would be answerable to the law for the sale of adulterated drinks. Although the bill would not pass this session he was glad it had reached such a stage as it had—that it had been printed; and he trusted the Government would take care to circulate it throughout the country, so that there might be an expression of public opinion on this as well as the Education Bill. He might say at once that he did think that he would ever vote for a bill which proposed to place in the hands of two-thirds of the people the power to prevent the sale of drink. There was no doubt that to the crime of drunkenness—for it was a crime —■was to be attributed many of the evils from which humanity suffered. He took such an interest in the bill, however, that he would procure copies of it and have them circulated. He would vote for the second reading. Mr SWANSON would vote for the second reading. He was sorry to find that some of those members who should have strongly sup-
ported the bill were most lukewarm; He hoped when tho bill went into committee ifc would be supported in a hearty manner by those who were favorable to it. Such a bill had done a great deal of good in the province of Auckland, and he considered the present one might do good to. But lie would warn the House against one danger—that of interfering with vested interests. There wore persons who had invested large sums of money in hotels, and it would not do to destroy their property without making some means of compensating them for it. Mr MACANDREW would vote against the second reading, partly because it was a matter which could be dealt with by the provinces in a more satisfactory manner than by them. He did not consider this was the correct mode to crush the evil. He would like to see an asylum for inebriates similar to that for lunatics. He would prefer to see free trade in the sale of liquors by abolishing all restrictions. He would vote against the second reading. Mr CALDBR supported the bill, ub also did
Mr STEWART, who thought it desirable that every effort should be made to suppress their national, or at any rate their colonial, vice. He did not agree with the prohibitory clauses. If it was proposed to give the power to be exercised on the granting of licenses for new houses, he would not object, but it was not right to say that there should be no houses where there were already a good number established. It would be placing in the hands of an agitator, whether political or otherwise, the power to get up an outcry against an individual, and, by obtaining the consent of two-thirds of the residents, absolutely deprive him of a living and ruin his property. A deputation of teetotalers in his district had stated to him that they did not wish to interfere with houses if they were properly conducted.
Mr M'GILLIYRAY heartily supported the bill. The petitions presented to the House convinced them of the fact that the inhabitants of the country had become alive to the necessity for such a measure. The measure would not only limit the sale of spirits ; it would prevent its adulteration. They had, in the illicit distillation which he knew to exist to a great extent, a source from which came great damage to the community and loss to the revenue.
Mr O’CONOR thought if the hill received the support of any members of the House it should receive that of the representatives of mining districts, because it provided not only for the prevention of the sale of adulterated and intoxicating drinks but for the suppression of gambling and singing and dancing in publichouses. He was astonished to hear two mining representatives oppose the bill. He would support it, and do all in his power to force it forward. Mr WILLIAMSON said the House would commit a great mistake if it did not read the bill a second time. Mr FOX, on account of the thinness of the House and the late hour, moved the adjournment of the debate until Wednesday next, which was agreed to. ARMS BILL. This bill was struck off the paper. AUCKLAND HARBOR BOARD BORROWING BILL. Mr O'RORKE announced that as the Government proposed to deal with this matter he would withdraw this bill from the paper. MUNICIPAL CORPORATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a second time, Mr Gisborne intimating that it was one to remove certain techanical difficulties, and he would explain its scope in committee. OTAGO SUPREME COURT OPPICES BILL. This bill was read a second time, as also was the BUILDING AND LAND SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL, Mr REYNOLDS explaining that its object was merely to make a slight amendment in the existing act, which required a majority of fivesixths of the shareholders to enable the company to be wound up. The bill proposed that the majority should be reduced to two-thirds. COMMITTALS. The following bills were committed :—The Wellington Town Reserves Bill (the amendments in which were ordered to be considered on Wednesday), the Taranaki Education Reserves Bill (the amendments in which were ordered to be considered on Tuesday), and the Masterton and Greytown Lands Management Bill (the amendments in which were ordered to be considered on Wednesday). THIRD READINGS. The City of Dunedin Borrowing Bill, the Oamaru Town Reserves Management Bill, the Invercargill Public Gardens Reserves Alienation Bill, the Intestate Estates Bill, the Charitable Funds Appropriation Bill, the Church Lands Building Leases Bill, and the Bishops in New Zealand Trusts Bill, were read a third time and passed. AMENDMENTS BY LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Nelson Loan Bill, the Crown Lands Nelson Leasing Bill, and the Wellington Educational Reserves Bill were agreed to ; Mr Bunny, while moving the amendments in the Wellington Bill be agreed to, stating that he thoroughly disagreed with them. WOOL AND OIL SECURITIES ACT. Mr JOHNSTON, in moving the second reading of this bill, said it was simply an act to enable a sheep farmer to give a security on his next clip of wool. WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS BILL. Mr BUNNY moved that the House disagrees with the amendments made by the Legislative Council in this bill. He also moved that Messrs Eitzherbert, Pearce, and himself be appointed managers to confer with managers of the Legislative Council on th« bill. The House adjourned at two o’clock.
Tuesday, October 16. The Speaker took the chair afc half-past two o’clock. PETITIONS. An unusually large number of petitions were presented, but the want of a seat, through the crowding of the gallery by the writers of discursive letters, deprived our representative of any opportunity of noting their contents. RETURNS. Mr COLLINS drew the attention of the House to the fact that a return moved for by him some time ago, and ordered by the House to be furnished, had not been laid on the table. If the discourtesy were directed at himself, he did not much mind, but it showed a want of respect to the Ho ase that the return should not have been laid on the table. Mr GISBORNE said it was only another instance of the bon member wishing some one else to go to the trouble of reading the papers for him. From the records of the House he saw that the return had been on the table exactly a fortnight that day. Mr COLLINS was sorry he had made any remarks on the matter, as he had since found that he was wrong, having discovered that the return was laid on the table as stated by Mr Gisborne. Mr GISBORNE referred to another matter connected with the alleged substitution of papers referring to the case of Mr Buller. He hoped the Speaker and the House would take steps to discover the person who had interfered with the papers in that case. PRIVILEGE. Mr FARNALL drew the attention of the Speaker to the fact that all his parliamentary papers had been abstracted from bis pigeon hole. He bad been informed by an hon member that a stranger had been seen in the chamber rummaging over members’ papers. He wished to know what steps should be taken in such a matter. Mr BRADSHAW said he was the member referred to as having detected the stranger rummaging the pigeon holes. The SPEAKER also called the attention of the House to the fact that Mr T. L. Shepherd’s name had been erased from all the committee lists in the lobby. He thought it had been done as a mark of disrespect to the hon member. He might add that there were more liberties being taken by strangers during the present session than he had ever known to be the case in any previous session; the interference was so great that it would at once have to be stopped. If he should succeed in detecting any person in the commission of these practices he would bring him before the bar of the House to be there dealt with. [The allusion to liberties taken by “ strangers” drew forth loud cries of “ hear, hear,” and many indignant glances at the “ strangers” in the reporters’ gallery . 3 LETTER PROM THE CONTROLLER. The SPEAKER announced to the House that he had received a letter from the Controller of Public Accounts, acquainting the House of the fact that £115,000 of the public money had been spent without passing in any way under the control or supervision of the Controller, in the manner directed by the law. Mr STAFFORD moved that the letter be printed. Mr YOGEL, before the motion for printing the letter was put, suggested that it should first be referred to the Public Accounts Committee. The explanation of the matter was that the Public Works Act of last year was drawn out very stringently with respect to the disposal of the funds which were raised in England. [Mr Yogel explained that the expenditure of the amount was made up in the necessary expenses of the country, accounting to the House by items for the total amount.] The Home Agents had operated solely on the account; he had never touched it himself. There were amounts to be paid in England of which the Comptroller could know nothing,and it was evident that the Controller’s Act would have to be altered. He, therefore, desired that the document should be referred to the Public Accounts Committee, to recommend any alteration it desired. The Comptroller was well aware that these accounts had been paid at home in the way they were. Mr STAFFORD said he saw no reason why the report should not be printed, although it were to be referred to the Public Accounts Committee. Mr YOGEL would suggest that if it were circulated without going before the Public Accounts Committee it might create a very false impression, and for that reason alone it was very desirable that it should be referred to that committee for examination. Mr ROLLESTON did not see any reason why the letter should not be printed. It had been read to the House, and its contents would most likely appear in the morning papers. Mr YOGEL said if Mr Stafford refused to accept his suggestion that the letter be referred to the Public Accounts Committee, he would be compelled to make the motion himself. After some further discussion, the motion for referring the letter to the Public Accounts Committee was carried. PETITION OE LUNDON AND WHITAKER. Mr SHEPHARD brought up the report of the committee appointed to examine into this ease. The report stated that the committee considered that the petitioners had a legal claim on the colony, and recommended the payment of compensation to the amount of £I4BO. Mr HATJGHTON gave notice that to-mor-row he wouid move that the report be adopted. CASE OE A. S. DEEYER. The report of the Select Committee on this petition was brought up. It recommended the payment of £6B to the petitioner for expense incurred in forwarding his claim, and that a Crown grant be issued to him. ERECTION OE COURT HOUSES. Mr BRADSHAW asked the Colonial Treasurer whether it was the intention of the Government to make provision on the supple-
mentary estimates for the erection of such new court houses as may be required during the present year; and also for the repair and enlarging of existing ones where they are necessary ? He made the motion because he saw it was the intention to abolish provincial charges, and because he saw no provision on the estimates for this work.
Mr YOGEL said it was possible a sum would be placed on the estimates, although it would not be a very large amount. Now that these charges had become colonial it would be necessary that they should be reduced as much as possible, particularly in such a year as the present. REMISSION CERTIEICATES. Mr T. KELLY asked the Cololonial Secretary whether the Government will allow remission eertificates, issued under the Volunteer Land Act, 1869, by : the Superintendent of Taranaki, to be exercised in the purchose of confiscated land within the province ? Mr GISBORNE said the Superintendent of Taranaki had mentioned the matter to the Defence Minister, who expressed his opinion that he did not think it advisable that these certificates should be exercised on confiscated lands, but that they should be exercised on lands under the control of the Provincial Legislature. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. Mr O’NEILL asked the Premier whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce next session a Public Health Bill ? There had been many attempts to pass such a bill, and looking at the importance to the colony of such a measure he thought it was one the Government should at once take into serious consideration. Mr FOX said the Government did not intend Jto bring in such a bill during the present session, but would give its consideration to the subject before Parliament met next year. It was, however, a large subject, and if taken in all its bearings would involve a large expense or large powers of rating, and would have to be very delicately handled as regarded provincial rating. BAILIEF, NASEBY. Mr MERYYN asked the Government whether they were prepared to provide quarters for the Bailiff at Naseby ? Mr GISBORNE wished to correct an impression the hon member seemed to be under. It was not intended to provide the salaries of judicial officers on the goldfields out of the Colonial revenue. The estimates laid on the table would show him that. PUBLIC TRUST OPEICE BILL. Mr YOGEL moved that this order of the day be discharged, as the Government did not intend to go on with the bill. Motion agreed to. TRANSEER OE POWERS BILL. Mr YOGEL, on the calling of the order for the second reading of this bill, said the business of the remainder of the session was so onerous that it was desirable to cut off every moment they could possibly spare. This was a measure which could not pass through the Assembly without a considerable amount of discussion, and therefore the Government had come to the conclusion that it would be more desirable to deal with the whole subject by bringing in a bill next session than to deal with it now. The Government would then bring down a bill which would not only deal with the matter more comprehensively, hut would define what should be the exact functions of the Provincial Governments. That was the mind of the Government on the subject, and with these views he would move that the order be discharged. On behalf of members generally, he would say that it was desirable that they should go on with the business of the House with as little unnecessary discussion as possible. This was no appeal on behalf of the Government, but on behalf of the members, although he might say that the strain on the Government had been of a very heavy nature during the past three weeks, and they were of opinion that it was desirable that the session should be closed within the next three weeks. (Oh, oh, and ironical cries of “ Why don’t you make it a fortnight,” and “ Make it a week.”) He hoped hon members did not suppose he was making his remarks in any presumptive spirit. Mr STAFFORD said the position was certainly a very peculiar one. The Government had been asked to bring down their policy, and had delayed doing so until a very late period of the session, and then they gave only a sketch of what they were going to do. They had been asked to bring down their bills, and after a great deal of consideration they did consent to bring down these bills, but they were no sooner placed on the order paper than the Government themselves asked that they should be discharged. A good many of these bills were discharged, but this bill seemed to be so good that it would be a pity to see it struck off the order paper. They had brought this bill down to be explained, but they really did not seem to understand it themselves. The bill was one of those measures which it was much more desirable that the remainder of the session should be taken up in discussing than a great many of those measures to which the Colonial Treasurer attached so much weight. He should oppose the discharge of this bill, and hoped it would go to a discussion. With reference to the allusion made by the Colonial Treasurer to unnecessary discussion that was mere surplusage. If the Government, who calls itself the Government of progress—which boasts that it is the first Government that has ever proposed large schemes to the country —if it were the Government who had given them these schemes, they must expect to spend some time in the consideration of those schemes, and if it were inconvenient for some hon members to remain here, whose fault was that but the fault of the Government ? Why did they not give members time to discuss these measures ? The Government had only one of two courses — either to withdraw the whole of its measures
which required discussion, or to give the fullest dsscussion to those measures. For his own part he was quite prepared to give them all the discussion their importance deserved. If it was not the intention of the Government to discuss these bills, then he maintained that the House ought to have time to consider them. It was not right that they should be hurried through the House at the discretion of the Government.
Mr ROLLESTON trusted the Government would Bee fit to go on with this bill. It was an exceedingly important one, and he did not think the withdrawal of the previous bill, to which the Colonial Treasurer had referred, was any reason why this one should be withdrawn ; on the contrary, it was rather a reason for going on with this bill. The question of the reduction of the number of the members of certain Provincial Councils by this House would depend on whether other provinces were going to continue. It was a well known fact that one of the provinces was at present incapable of carrying on, and would obtain the advantages of the revenue of other parts of the colony. It was extremely inconvenient that this bill should be withdrawn at the present time. If there was one question of any importance brought before the House up to the present time it was the considerations involved in this bill.
Mr WOOD thought the bill before them was just the one the Government should proceed with. The sole reference he made to the measure the other night was made in terms of compliment to the Government for bringing down such a bill. He might say this was the most extraordinary House he had ever beheld. There appeared to be scarcely any difference whatever between the Government and the Opposition, the only difference being this—that if the Opposition had anything to oppose they got up and opposed it, but what bill had the supporters of the Government supported. It appeared to him that the policy of the Government had been supported by the other side of the House. The suggestion of the hon member for Timaru was a most correct one —that the Government should withdraw all measures which were likely to meet with any discussion at all.
Mr MACANDREW did not know whether the bill would be supported or opposed by the supporters of the Government, but he did know this, that they were opposed to remaining here three months to discuss this question; There was no doubt that this bill was a good one, hut were members to remain three months longer to discuss it ? He would not. The House should now confine itself to real practical business, such as the passing of the estimates and other more necessary bills than this one. If they went on as they were going at present they would be here fully three months from the present time. For his part he would support the bill for the object he had mentioned.
Mr REID thought the bill ■ would not take up very much time in discussing ; there were very few clauses in it; It was a permissive bill, leaving it to the provinces to show whether they ought to maintain the present form of government in the face of the present proposals of the Government. He would be exceedingly anxious to see whether the Provincial Government of his province were willing to abandon the provincial form of government. He conceived that the other provinces were in the same position, and it was a matter for consideration even at this time of the session, althouh jhe conceded that the time of members was limited. They were told that a great deal of time had been wasted by the House, hut, seeing that the bills were so late in coming forward, he did not think that the blame rested with members. It would be much better to spend a few hours over the bill, and get it passed into law. If the supporters of the Government would not support them, the Opposition were quite willing to support them in carrying their measure. He hoped in the future they would have more confidence in their own bills, and he should like to see them abide by this one ; he could assure them they could get it carried by an overwhelming majority. It did not become the Colonial Treasurer to tell them that they were to have no more talking. For his own part he never talked unless he had something to say, but he found the Colonial Treasurer as good at talking as any other member of the House. The blame of delay rested with the Government; it was their duty to have called the House together at an earlier period. If the right of the people of the country were to be considered, the House must be called together before the end of the year. Instead of that being so, what did they find ? That the most important proposals were brought down at the end of the session. There were many measures, and this was one of them, which might have been laid before the House in the first week of the session. He hoped the Government did not intend to adopt the system of governing by caucus, but would bring before them many other measures like the one they were now discussing. Mr O’RORKEcould nothelp remarking upon the statements of the hon member for Parnell (Mr Wood). The action of the Government would, no doubt, he most extraordinary to him as long as he was on the back benches instead of those of the Government. Mr GILLIES thought there was an absolute necessity for proceeding with this bill. If the Colonial Treasurer intended to go on with the Payments to Provinces Bill, he must necessarily have this bill, because thetfe were provinces which could not go on, and it was absolutely necessary that some provision should be made to take over a province which was in such circumstances, but if he intended to withdraw the Payments to Provinces Bill, he Mr Gillies) had not a word to say. Mr YOGEL was afraid the hon member for Taieri (Mr Reid) did not know himself when he suggested that the Government should have this bill carriedjjthrough by the assistance of the Opposition.“He (Mr Yogel)
believed if the Government were to say that they had very severe weather, the hon member would be of opinion that they were enjoying exceeding calm weather. Now that the Government were going to abandon this bill they found great regards expressed for it by the Opposition. If they wanted any justification for the course they had taken, it was to be found in the fact that the measure had already incurred the delivery of six or seven speeches, so that he was not inclined to entrust the carrying of the measure to the Opposition. If they took up this measure they would experience what they had experienced before, that the members of the Opposition would become sufficiently versatile to find reason to oppose it just as they now found reason to support it. In answer to the question why the House did not meet at an earlier period of the year, all he could say was that that they had called the House together at the earliest possible time at which they felt themselves in the position to give the House the information ifc should possess on those important measures which were passed by the House last year. There was no member, unprejudiced by party passions, who would fail to recognise that the amount of work performed by the Government during the recess was very large. Had they taken a leaf out of the book of the hon member for Timaru they would have taken appropriations for two years, and not have met the House until they had time to test the public works measures, but they did not desire to do that. They had worked very hard indeed, in order to lay before the House the information which the Government were aware was very much desired. He hoped they would now have much more support from the Opposition and less talk. On the question being put that the order for the second reading of the bill be discharged from the paper, it was declared on the voices to be with the ayes. A division being called for, the result was : —Ayes, 40 ; noes, 25. THE PUBLIC RESERVES BILL. Mr YOGEL said as the motion for going into committee was a merely formal one, it was not necessary that he should trouble the House with any remarks. Mr STAFFORD thought before going into committee for the purpose of giving leave to introduce this bill, it would be desirable that the Government should take a discussion on it so that explanations of its object should be given; so that they might have some reason as to why it was proposed to amend the Public Revenues Act. No opposition being offered, the House went in committee. Mr ROLLESTON said before the question was put to the committee he would take the opportunity of stating that he considered the bill to be a part of what he might call the reckless system of finance which the Government was attempting to force through the House. He wished to enter his protest against this bill. It was well to be seen that the Government had a large majority at their hack, and could carry it if they liked, but for his part he would take occasion, every time it came before the House, to express his opinion on it. This question of the borrowing powers, which occurred in almost every bill that came before the House was of a most dangerous character to the country at large, and the question of the borrowing powers in this particular case was not less dangerous. By enabling the Government to have this large amount at their disposal it would enable them to postpone the meeting of the representatives of the people at a time when it was necessary that the state of affairs should be brought before the House. He would oppose every stage of such a measure as the present one. Mr WOOD thought the course proposed by the Government was exceedingly inconvenient. It was only due to the people that every possible opportunity should be given to the House to discuss money bills ; to express their opinions on matters of the kind before them, and of stating their objections to them if they considered them mischievous. The first step the Colonial Treasurer should have taken was to have stated the reasons for the introduction of such a bill. He could not help contrasting the course proposed by the hon member for the Hutt and the Colonial Treasurer in such matters. When that hon member brought a bill before the House a few days ago he gave its whole scope and object, and if the hon gentleman were to act upon that example he would not attempt to prevent the discussion of SO important a measure as the one before them. Although the hon gentleman did not intend to explain the reason why the Government proposed to introduce it he thought the committee should permit him to state why he thought it was unnecessary (to introduce it at the present time. The bill dealt with matters of considerable importance, and with three distinct subjects ; one for borrowing, one with reference to the Payments to Provinces Act, and one to abolish the office of Comptroller of Public Accounts. First of all it proposed to give an increase of the borrowing powers to the Government. When the Government came to the House for an increase of the borrowing powers beyond those large powers they already enjoyed, it was only treating the committee with very common courtesy to be told that they should not ask the reason why they should do so. Then they proposed to abolish the duties of the Comptroller and to add them to those of the Auditor-General. That was an authoritative announcement from the Government that the distinct office of Comptroller was unnecessary. The Government must be perfectly well awere that there wag great difference of opinion in the House on the subject, and if the Government had come to the conclusion that the distinct office of Comptroller was unnecessary it was their bounden duty to deal with the question practically and not simply to approach it by throwing the matter open to discussion, and doing it in such a manner as could satisfy neither one side or the other in
the House. Those persons who thought that Z office of Controller should be dispensed with would be dissatisfied m finding that the proposal was not to do away with the office until some remote contingency has taken place, whilst, on the other hand those who thought that the system of control had some good in it would rather see it improved than Mr Stafford, Mr C alder, Mr Wakefield, and Mr Reid wished to place on record their opposition to the continuance of the system of borrowing, which it was proposed to perpetuate in this bill. An exciting discussion ensued upon the question. A division having been called for, the resolution was carried by a majority of 35 against 25. the dreyer award. Mr EYES moved that the amount of the award (£150) in the case of Mr A. S. Dreyer, which had been charged a gainst the province of Marlborough, be refunded by the General Government. A division on the point ensued, which resulted in the motion being negatived by a majority of 24 against 15. the late speaker. Mr STAFFORD asked the Government how it was that the House had not received a reply to the address sent to his Excellency the Governor with reference to the recommendation, passed on the motion of the Premier, that her Majesty should be recommended to confer upon* Sir D. Monro some further mark of her favor. Mr FOX replied that the reason was that the recommendation had been addressed to her Majesty to be sent home to England, and when it was returned the Government would make known her Majesty’s signification. _ Some further discussion ensued, exceedingly acrimonious personalties being introduced by Mr Collins. Several other members addressed the House, and the matter was then allowed to drop. THE ESTIMATES, The first item which drew forth any passing notice was the vote under the Customs head for the Collector at Hokitika. Mr Harrison proposed the reduction of the amount by £IOO on the ground that the official was overpaid, and underworked. Mr White resented, pointing out the remarkable feature in all Mr Harrison’s reductions that none of them referred to Greymouth; all his economical designs were exclusively devoted to a sphere in which Hokitika formed a prominent centre. The vote passed without reduction. When the votes for the native department came on Mr Creighton protested against them as wholly unnecessary, but he saw Government were so strong that it was utterly useless to attempt any reduction; therefore he not make any motion having that object. Mr Stafford and Mr RollesTON spoke on the subject of the native reserves around Wellington, Mr Stafford and Mr Pearce making allusion to the reserve at Thorndon Elat, Mr Pearce hoping that the Government would take means to procure the handing over of the reserve on the settlement of the case iu Court with regard to it; that the deeds would be handed over to the trustees, so that they might utilise so valuable an estate. The next vote discussed was that for the Wellington Domain, £3OO. Members on all sideß defended the vote, on the ground that it was colonial in its character. Messrs Gillies, Reynolds, and Bathgate opposed the vote to the extent of going to a division, which resulted in a majority of 40 against 18. The subj ect of provincial charging for the carriage of inland mails was postponed. The item of £3500 for bank commission on remittances, excited some pertinent inquiries from Mr Gillies and Mr Webster, in reply to which Mr Yogel said the charge was one of J per cent commission, the bank binding itself to keep ready in London an amount to pay interest and sinking fund every quarter, so that the colony had not to keep so much money in London as it would otherwise have to do. When they sent money home, and it did not arrive, the bank was always ready to pay the interest and sinking fund on the colonial accounts, for which they charge the \ per cent. Mr Stafford did not know what their arrangement was with the bank, but if they were paying interest on exchange from home, and interest on exchange from the colony, that was a very undesirable system, and was one that should be discontinued. _ Where so much money passed, it was desirable that the colony should receive as much benefit as possible, by having its banking operations conducted in an economical manner. It was always his object, when in office, to ameliorate the condition of their banking matters. Mr Rolleston thought that the matter should be postponed, as the Colonial Treasurer was not to be congratulated on his knowledge of the matters connected with the item. The vote passed. The vote for militia and volunteers, £28,393 13s 6d, was postponed. The discussion on the Land Fund, Gold Fields Revenue, was withdrawn until after the discussion of the Payments to Provinces Bill. Progress was then reported, and leave given to sit again to-morrow. MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The Speaker announced that he had received a message from the Legislative Council, announcing that they had passed the Wellington Reclaimed Land Bill, the amendments in which were ordered to be considered next sitting day. Also that he had received a message transmitting the Land Transfer Act Amendment Act 1871. The bill was read a second time. At 25 minutes past twelve the House adjourned. Wednesday, October 18. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. petitions. Captain M'PHERSON presented a petition from 210 settlers of the Waikato district,
praying for the erection of a bridge at Ngaruawahia. WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS BILL. Mr BUNNY brought up the report of the managers appointed to inquire into the reasons for disagreeing with the amendments made by the Legislative Council. A message was ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council containing reasons why the House does not agree to such amendments. PEPITIONS OF L. W. PEAKE AND JAMES MOORE. Mr BRYCE asked the Colonial Secretary, whether anything has been done to carry out the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee on the petition of L. W. Peake and seven others, adopted by the House of Representatives on the 27th September, 1865; and if not, whether the Government will give effect to that recommendation. Also, whether the Government will give effect to the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee on the petition of James Moore and others, presented during the present session. Mr M‘LEAN said, with reference to the first inquiry it was found by the records that reference was made to General Chute for compensation in consequence of the loss sustained through the action of the Imperial troops, but no reply was ever received. The Government intended to have a commission appointed to inquire into the matter, and would also ask His Excellency to represent the case to the Imperial authorities at home, because the case was one where the Imperial troops were the cause of the claims being made. With reference to the case of Mr Moore and others, Major Edwards had been instructed to make inquiry, and on the result of that inquiry would depend the action of the Government. Mr BRYCE pointed out that the claim of the petitioner was made out in the account in the settlement of the claims between the the colony and the Imperial Government. Mr M'LEAN said if that were so the petitioners were entitled to compensation from the Government. He would look into that matter also. Mr FITZHERBERT, who had just entered the House, said he hardly thought the statement made by Mr Bryce was correct. Mr M'LEAN promised an inquiry should take place into the whole matter, so that the claim might be properly submitted to the Imperial Government. the mormons.
Mr HAUGHTON asked the Premier whether the attention of the Government had been directed to the progress of Mormonism in the Province of Wellington, and whether it is their intention to take any steps to arrest the same ? He was induced to put the notice on the paper in consequence of the reports he had seen in the newspapers. _ When they considered the very serious political consequences that had arisen in other countries from the presence of these people, he thought it right to ask the Government whether their attention had been called to the matter. Mr FOX said the Government had not had their attention directed to the subject as yet, and unless circumstances were brought under their notice to bliow that any individual or number of persons were acting in a manner contrary to the public welfare, they could not interfere in the matter. If any such circumstances were brought under the notice of the Government, it would then be their duty to take action in the matter. FIRST READINGS. A bill intituled an Act to amend the Arms Act, 1860, and a bill intituled an Act to amend the Immigration and Public Works Act, 1870, were read a first time. THE DISTILLATION ACT. Mr COLLINS moved that a select committee be appointed to take into consideration the working of the Distillation Act, 1868. Such committee to consist of Mr Macandrew, the Hon. Mr Gisborne, Mr Henderson, Mr Calder, Mr T. L. Shepherd, and the mover. Motion agreed to. REBEL AGGRESSIONS. The debate was resumed on the question that it is desirable the House should be informed whether it is the intention of the Government to prevent settlers in exposed out-districts from protecting themselves by force against armed aggressions of rebel natives ? Mr ROLLESTON repeated his question to the Defence Minister, Whether Mr Mackay had acted in a manner contrary to the interest of the country ? He would only repeat that he thought the charge made by the member for the Bay of Islands a highly unjustifiable one—one that it was the duty of the Defence Minister to rebut.
Mr MACANDREW moved an amendment to the motion, to the effect that, under the present circumstances of the colony, it is not expedient or politic that the Government should reveal its intentions as to the action it intended to take with reference to the out-lying districts. Mr ROLLESTON could conceive nothing more monstrous than the putting of such an amendment. He did not think the House would consent to stultify itself by adopting the amendment of the member for Port Chalmers. They were sent there as the representatives of the people, and it was their duty to protect them. Mr GILLIES desired to make a direct and flat contradiction of the statements of the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr M'Leod). He wished to give them a most unqualified denial. Mr Mackay was a gentleman who had done a great deal in the settlement of the colony, and the furthering of the interests of the Government. Such unjustifiable charges were of the most extraordinary nature, taken in connection with the reputation and character of a gentleman like Mr Mackay. Mr COLLINS could hardly understand, the member for Port Chalmers when he talked about “ the present circumstances of the colony.” They were repeatedly being told by the Government that the colony was enjoying
a profound peace. Under such circumstances, these warnings of the danger of outbreak sounded somewhat inconsistent. Mr STAFFORD pointed out that the suggestion given by the Government to Mr Walker simply meant, “ You must suffer any loss the natives choose to inflict upon you,” What was the use of telling settlers that they should have recourse to law. Did the Government have recourse to law when one of its own officer%was killed the late Mr Todd ? If the settler referred to had taken his case into Court, would the Government have protected-the bailiffs who went to enforce the law P The question was, were the Government prepared to allow the settlers to defend themselves, or did they intend to defend the settlers ? The position the Government had taken up was most inconsistent. They had told the House again and again that the country was in a profound state of peace, and yet when the rights of settlers were infringed by the natives they were told that it would be dangerous to interfere on account of the unsettled disposition of the natives. Mr M'LEOD apologised for the hasty accusations made use of by him on aprevious occasion. He was sorry his statements had conveyed such an impression as they evidently had. The idea he intended to convey was that Mr Mackay was one of the most upright gentlemen. But of the conduct of the Superintendent of Auckland he still complained. The action of that gentleman had been all through, out of the House as well as in it, to thwart the Government by the “ snapping ” policy he had pursued in objecting to all the great and good actions of the Government. He looked upon the action of the member for Auckland West as a misfortune. The province of Auckland was now far behind the other provinces of the colony. He looked upon the Superintendent as an eternal barrier between the Government and the province. KATENE objected to the course being adopted which the motion suggested. It was not right that the driving off of a few cattle should cause so much trouble, as it would inevitably do if it were carried out. It was from a similar cause that all the trouble arose out of the Titokowaru affair. If such a thing were to occur in a province like Otago, where there were a very few Maoris, they would all be killed. He belonged to the race that was fewest; that was to say they were less numerous than the other, and the result would be, if this system were carried out, that the Maoris would disappear. Xing messengers had been sent to his tribe, the Ngapuhi, and when they ascertained the facts connected with the murder of Mr Todd they would endeavor to sift the whole case. He hoped the matter would be left to the Government to deal with. The House was now acting like a lot of children who set fire to the herbage in the summer, not knowing where the fire would terminate. (Cheers.) Mr GILLIES retorted on the personal attacks of Mr M'Leod. Mr M'LEAN said the hon member for Timaru could not have been in his place when the discussion on the motion took place on a former day. The Government had then announced that they had endeavored to meet all dangers in a prompt way. It must not be supposed that the Government could follow the natives into the wilds and forest of a densely wooded country, which formed a safe retreat at all times to them. With reference’ to what had been said about Mr Mackay, he; could not be expected to be aware of all the* information or the rumors that the hon member for the Bay of Islands had got hold of, but whatever these rumors might have been, he could bear testimony to the fact that Mr Mackay was now giving every assistance to the Government, and that he was a most efficient officer. He might state that the successful completion of the Ohinemuri difficulty was not altogether due to Mr Mackay’s influence. Mr Puckey had done his very best in the matter as well. The latter gentleman had with him a chief of influence, who, in fact, was mainly influential in having the line carried through to Tarapete, and was now using every endeavor to further the completion of the line to Ohinemuri. He was sorry the discussion had assumed such a complexion as it had done, and he earnestly hoped there would be no more of such discussions at such a period of the session. Mr CREIGHTON thought the motion had had a good effect in bringing out such a speech as the one they had heard from Katene. The debate had been beneficial in many other ways. But while he felt proud of that fact, he regretted the speech of the hon member for the Bay of Islands, who had been guilty of making a most cowardly attack upon an absent gentleman, in addition to making charges against a member of the House, whose character was a sufficient refutation to such cowardly attacks. With reference to the charges made against Mr Mackay, he could only say that he knew personally that if Mr Mackay had been left to himself, without interference from other parties, they would have had the line opened seven years ago. The member for the Bay of Islands had made a speech fit for the small sphere from which he came, but he hoped the floor of the House would not be disgraced in a similar way on any future occasion. TAKAMOANA said he would not he surprised if the motion had been brought forward by a new member ; hut when it was brought forward by an old member, who ought to know all about Maori matters, he was surprised. He had always advised the Government to fight where necessary : indeed, in many cases the Government would not fight where he thought they would be perfectly justified in doing so. He had seen the error of fighting ; he had come in from it himself, because he felt that they should come to that House to advocate the interest of the whole people. He did not come there to represent the Maoris exclusively; he represented, to the beet of his ability, the whole of the people
of the country. Let them have no more fighting about cattle. Mr WOOD had very little to say, beyond the fact that he did not regard the question as being of that abstract nature which it was characterised by the Premier ; on the contrary, the rights of a settler were concerned and should be protected. He regretted the turn that was given to the debate on a former occasion, and he also regretted the turn Mr M'Leod had given to the debate of to-day by reflecting charges against gentlemen in and out of the House ; charges which had no relation to the matter under discussion whatever. As the motion had elicited a very profitable discussion he would now withdraw it. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. REDUCTION OF THE GOLD DUTY.
A motion by Mr Collinb, that the duty on gold should be reduced to 2s per ounce, was negatived on a division by 28 to 21. We are compelled to withhold our report of the discussion. THE WAIRARAPA RAILWAY BILL.
Mr WAKEFIELD moved that a select committee be appointed to inquire and report as to whether it is prudent and desirable, before determining on the line of railway communication to be adopted between Wellington and the Wairarapa plain, that a careful survey should be made of that portion of Port Nicholson harbor between the mouth of the Hutt river and the S.E. point of Lowry Bay, with a view to the best site for a deepwater railway wharf; and also of the coast between Lowry Bay and the S.W. extremity of Wairarapa beach ; and of the best line thence to the neighborhood of Greytown, regard being had in all cases to the estimated cost of construction, the distance within which, and the rate of passage and freight at which, a large extent of land available for agricultural settlement would be reached from Wellington, and find a ready market for its produce; and to the ability of the owners of such land, where being in private hands, to bear the equitable imposition of special rates in proportion to the great additional value which such communication would confer upon their real and personal property. He considered the motion involved a matter of very grave importance, not only to the province of Wellington, but to the whole colony of New Zealand. He did not bring it in in any spirit of hostility, either to the Wellington members or to the Government, but because he felt that sufficient inquiry had not been made to ascertain what was the best means of opening out the country; of getting at the really available land, as well as at the whole interior of the country. It would be a cheaper road than the road which had been adopted, which had only one alternative, while the line which he took the liberty of thinking the best had also the advantage of four or five alternative lines. It had for many years been the opinion of those acquainted with the road he proposed that there were great advantages connected with it. It would run through a much more fertile district, and would open out country which the present line seemed to deviate from without any purpose whatever. The line that had been decided on had been amply described by Mr Roehfort, while the other, which he would like to see examined, had been condemned in one sentence, saying that it could not be made at any reasonable cost. It was a basty opinion, given without any attempt to survey the line, without any comparison of the slips on each route, without any comparison of the cubic matter driven forward by the small streams on the coast line with that driven forward by the Hutt river. After describing that the line was to run over a pass 1300 feet high, the surveyor said it was to be equipped at a cost of £4BOO per mile. As members were aware, it was proposed to construct the line outside the present road to the Hutt by throwing over the rocks en masse. Considering that there would be about seven miles of this operation to be carried on it could not be very cheaply done ; in addition to which there were very heavy cuttings to be done towards Silver Stream. Then the Hutt river would have to be bridged at a very considerable cost. From the Silver Stream up the Hutt Yalley was not a very difficult piece of work, but then came the going over a hill 1300 feet above the level of the sea. And when they got over, the line went through land of the most rocky description, which, after the timber was cut off, would not be of any value at all. Then the line entered the Wairarapa plain where there was no good fertile land; its direction had been to leave the fertile land altogether. The surveyor had described the route as splendid line of road. His idea evidently seemed to be that the best line for a railway was where the best ballast was to be found, because many portions of his report describes the country as being of a very stony nature. This latter opinion he entirely agreed with, for there was very little land of good quality there at all. The arrival of the dinner hour stopped the hon gentleman’s argument. LAW PRACTITIONERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr O’RORKE moved the' adoption of the committee on this bill. Mr BRANDON thought its consideration should be adjourned. Mr ROLLESTON, according to a promise given on the last occasion the bill was before the House, wished to record his protest against the passing of such a measure. He was sorry to have heard the statement from the Government benches that the bill of 1866 was passed through the House in a surreptitious manner. He found from the newspapers of the period that a final decision took place upon it at the time, so that such a statement was highly unjustifiable. The motion that the report of the committee be agreed to was then put, and a division being called for, the numbers wero i Ayes, 30; noes, 9. The bill was then read a third time and passed.
COLONIAL INDUSTRIES COMMITTEE. Mr CREIGHTON brought up the final report of the Industries Committee, stating that the report was a very important one. He moved that it be printed. Agreed to. LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr FOX, in supporting the second reading of this bill, said the time had come when they must remedy the drinking habits of the Anglo-Saxon race. Mr Fox read from speeches of Mr Bruce and Mr Buxton, made in the Imperial Parliament, showing the baneful effects of the indulgence in alcoholic liquor, a portion of Mr Buxton’s speech going to show that there would be no such thing as pauperism were it not for the vice of drinking. They might say that the evil was not so repulsive, that it had nob assumed that development which it had assumed in the old country, but it had reached such a stage that it was their duty at once to stop it, if they intended to do so at all. Returns showed that the consumption of drink in the colony in one year was over a million sterling, an amount greatly exceeding in proportion the consumption in England. It had been said that the bill was not very carefully drawn, but he could assure hon members that it had received great consideration, and was very carefully drawn. It was by no means complex, and he had not the slightest doubt that it would be found, if passed, to work smoothly, and would, after a little while, produce a great part of the success its most ardent supporters wished. An important part of the bill was the taking of the power of the magistrates, and placing it in the power of the people. The reason for this was that the magistrates had not used the power judiciously } they always had leanings towards the publican. Licenses were seldom refused, and more seldom still was one taken away. He would give an instance. They were all aware that a man had recently set fire to a publichouse at Wanganui; the object being to get the insurance money, but in which fire the life of a human being was sacrificed. Yet two Justices of the Peace went to this man while he was lying in the gaol, while the embers of the fire were yet smouldering, and while the blood of his victim was yet wreaking, these justices went to this murderer, and allowed him to sign a transfer of his license to his brother. The police objected to the granting of the license to the brother, who had already kept a publichouse, and kept it so badly that the police had to object to his method of conducting it. This bill merely provided that the justices should not have the power. He had given reasons to those who thought he had dealt with the publicans too severely. The justice was, in fact, too closely connected with the publican, both geographically and socially. Another thing they would attempt by the bill would be to put a stop to the advocacy of lawyers in the granting of licenses. The most objection, he apprehended, would be offered to the prohibitory clauses —the “ permissive prohibitory” as they had been called. Members had said in exact words, “ Oh, you can’t make men sober by act of Parliament.” But he could prove plainly that if they could not make him sober by act of Parliament, they could make him drunk by act of Parliament. They could not make men honest by act of Parliament, but did they not pass laws for the suppression of theft, and why should they not in the same way endeavor to suppress the consumption of drink. A question of the member for Newton, “ Where was the Colonial Treasurer to get his revenue from if they were to sf;op the liquor trade,” was easily answered. Could they get more out of a wet sponge than a dry one? And would it not be easier, if a man kept his money in his pocket, to tax him. He was a more taxable creature, but he maintained that it would not be necessary to increase the taxation. They all knew very well that drunkenness was the cause of the greater part of the crime, and if drunkenness were done away with to an extent of any magnitude, would it not follow that the taxation would be reduced. They might not require so many lunatic asylums, gaols, police, and the many other sources which absorbed bo much money. They were told that this was a class-movement j that they were attempting to rob the poor man of his beer; that it was a case of the rich man looking after the morals of the poor, while his own, perhaps, stood in greater need of it. But what was the fact ? The power was put in the hands of the poor man himself. Whose were the signatures attached to the numerous petitions placed on the table of the House but those of the poor men of the country ? Did the rich constitute two-thirds of the inhabitants of every district ? and if they did not, and he did not think they did, how could it be said that the rich man was over-riding the poor man, or that ifc was legislation of a class character ? A suggestion of the hon member for Newton he considered most dangerous—that of compensating the publican. That was a point which, if insisted on, would destroy the effect of the bill. Why should they give compensation while they were endeavoring to suppress a national vice. What case was there in which compensation had been given when an attempt was being made to suppress a trade or to divert an industry into another channel. The only cases in which compensation was given were those of the cattle plague and the abolition of slavery; and in the latter case, he regretted to say, that an excess of philanthropy had induced them to pay what was paid. All he could say was let the publican compensate the public for the injury be had done, and then he would be entitled to ask for compensation from the House. He could cite two cases which occurred recently in London —the Highbury Barn and the Alhambra — where two houses doing business to the extent of some thousands of pounds a year were swept away by the scratch of the pen of a justice of the peace. They did not ask for compensation, neither did the owners of 300 publichouses in Liverpool the licenses for which were taken away in a similar manner.
He trusted that if hon members refused to pass this bill they would suggest to the House the kind of bill they wanted. He had heard many objections urged against such measures, bub had never heard any objections to the principle. He had been accused of having a “ craze” on this subject. It was customary, when a person attempted to introduce social reform, to say he was mad. If it were said of him that he was mad, there were a great many people in the same condition as himself, for no less than 12,000 of his fellow colonists had signed the petitions which had been presented to the House. In England over 800,000 were mad along with him, and in America over three millions. He did not think he was mad but the madness lay with those who, seeing the very life blood of the colony sapped by a great evil, would take no steps to lessen or remove it. He recommended the bill to the acceptance of the House, and challenged those wlio opposed it to bring down a better remedy for the evils which all earnest minded colonsts must join with him in deploring. Me Thomson and Mr Bunny addressed the House on the bill, and Mr Creighton replied. The bill was then read a second time. MARRIED WOMEN’S PROPERTY BILL.
The House went into committee on this’ bill. The debateable matter of the bill was contained in the clauses providing that women entering into any business should have the privilege of becoming insolvent. Mr Creighton and Mr Gisborne opposed the granting of the liberty. The clauses passed, and the bill was reported with some other amendments.
APPEALS AGAINST PROVINCIAL RATING BILL. Thi9 bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. CIVIL SERVICE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill, which gives practical effect to the resolution passed a few days ago, was read a second time. AMENDMENTS BY THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The amendments made in the Otago Settlements Bill and the Wellington Waste Land Regulations Amendment Bill were agreed to. COMMITTALS. The Imprisonment for Debts Abolition Bill and the Oamaru Dock Trust Borrowing Bill were committed, and amendments made which were ordered to be considered to-morrow. TARANAKI EDUCATION RESERVES BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. OKIE WELLINGTON LOAN BILL. After a very long discussion, the motion for leave to introduce the bill was carried, on a division, the numbers being—Ayes, 19 ; noes, 16. The House adjourned at half-past two. Thursday, October 19. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. GOLDPIELDS COMMITTEE. Mr HAUGHTON brought up a report from the Goldfields Committee, which recommended that the delegation of the goldfields powers should be discontinued ; the report also recommended the adoption by the Government of many of the suggestions contained in the report on the Otago goldfields. ADDRESS TO SIR D. MONRO. The SPEAKER announced that he had transmitted to Sir David Monro the resolution come to by the House, and in reply had received a letter from that gentleman requesting him (the Speaker) to convey to the House his thanks for the very high honor conferred by the resolution of the House. PHOTOGRAPH COPYRIGHT. Mr EYES asked the Premier if the Government will introduce a Photograph Copyright Bill during next session ? The hon member mentioned that he had often suggested to photographers that they should take views of remarkable buildings and scenery, and the reply he always received was that they did not care to do so because they had no protection ; that their pictures were pirated; and that under these circumstances the inducements were not sufficient. He had placed the notice on the paper because he had received a letter from a photographer offering to pay the expenses of printing a bill with such an object if it were introduced during the present session ; but he thought it was not the duty of a private person to be put to such an expense; nor did ho think it was possible to pass such a measure during the present session. He merely wished to ask the Government whether he had said sufficient to lead to the introduction of a bill on the subject next year. Mr FOX said the laws of the country already secured the copyright of books and pamphlets. In England the securing of' the copyright of photographic works was legalised also, and the Government did not see any objection to introducing such a provision here. They would give the subject full discussion during the recess, and if they saw their way to doing so would introduce a bill on the subject next session. PIRST READINGS. The following bills were read a first time:— A bill to alter the boundaries of the county of Westland and province of Nelson, and for other purposes; a bill intituled an Act to authorise the Governor to make Crown grants of certain Crown lands in the province of Otago, and for other purposes; a bill intituled an Act to amend the Regulation of Elections Act, 1870; and a bill intituled an Act to amend the Medical Practitioners Registration Act, 1869. CONTRIBUTIONS TO ROAD BOARDS. Mr GISBORNE moved that the House, on Tuesday next, should resolve itself into committee, to take into consideration resolutions as to the distribution of the colonial contribution to road boards under the Payments ,to Provinces Act. Agreed to. RUNANGA POR THE NORTH ISLAND. 1 Mr KATENE moved that the Government be requested to send down to this House a
measure by which a Runanga will be granted to the districts of the Bay of Islands and Mongonui | the object of such board to be the promotion of public works, education, the carrying out of law and order, &c, &c, He explained that the duties of the Runanga would be to assist Resident Magistrates in cases of disputes where penalties were inflicted and the Maoris refused to pay. Its second object would be to assist the progress of education throughout the district, and to form roads, and next to settle disputes arising among the Maoris themselves, and between Maoris and Europeans in question about cattle and sheep. Those would be really the heads. It would also be necessary that communication in all matters relating to the district should be made through the runanga to the Government. He wished, as far as he was concerned, that the runanga should be confined to his district, north of Auckland. He also desired that the members of the runanga should not bo confined to the Maori race ; he would like to see its members composed of both Europeans and Maoris—half each. He proposed that the money to be expended in the district should pass through this runanga before being apportioned to the road boards. He might institute a runanga, without coming to the House, but be would prefer to have the authority of Parliament. The members should be paid, but he should not like to see their sessions last as long as those of the House. Mr M'LEAN said the Government had no objection to the proposal, but it was now too late in the session to pass a bill embracing all the views of the hon member on the subject. He thought tliedistrict was now ripeforeucli a runanga, and in conference with the AttorneyGeneral, he had thought that for the present they might bring in an empowering bill to enable the natives to rate themselves. The proposal to pay the members he did not agree with, because members of other road boards did not receive any payment for their services. MR EIRTH AND TE KOOTI. Mr CREIGHTON moved that copies of all correspondence in the possession of the Government arising out of the interview of Mr J. C. Firth, of Auckland, with Te Kooti, not yet published, be laid on the table of this House. He put the motion for the purpose of removing reflections cast upon the character of Mr Firth, in an indirect way, by allusions contained in a memorandum of the Defence Minister relating to the meeting of Mr Firth with Te Kooti.
Mr M'LEAN, in explanation, said he would only be too happy to withdraw any aspersions he had made on Mr Firth’s private character. During the exciting circumstances of the time, to which the documents read by the hon member referred, he might have used expressions of rather a warm and hasty character; but his intention was merely to warn Mr Firth that meetings of the kind which had been held between himself and Te Kooti could not be permitted to be held by private settlers without the knowledge of the Government. He . would not allow the matter to drop without saying that he fully recognised the value of the efforts of Mr Firth as an old and respected settler. He never had any wish to throw imputations on his character. Tho motion was then withdrawn. RETURN. Mr COLLINS moved that the return moved for by him, and laid on the table of the House —in continuation of the return laid upon the table of the House last session on the motion of Mr Harrison —showing the number of offices created since last session, be printed. Agreed to. BILLS DISCHARGED. The Government of Provinces Bill and tho Qualifications of Electors Bill were discharged from the paper on the request of the Government. PUBLIC RESERVES BILL. The House then considered a resolution of a committee of the whole on this bill. Mr STAFFORD said he could not permit this subject to pass without a division upon it. As he had already announced he intended to take every opportunity of obstructing the passage of the bill. He would say plainly that he did not care to trust the Government in giving them any more money, and would again assert that they spent a great amount of money without any authority whatever ; that they did not confine the expenditure to the appropriations authorised by the House. They made advances for which they had no authority whatever, and then they came down to the House and said “You must pass this bill because the Government have already spent the money and it must be provided in some way.” There were £25,000 advanced to Wellington by the Government last year, and instead of stopping the money this year they support a measure to allow that province to borrow more, and in connection with this subject he would like to ask how it was that the account with the province only came up to the 30th June. When he saw that the Government were so reckless in advancing money outside the services granted by Parliament, and then coming down next year and saying that the House must pass these bills, it was time to restrict the powers of such a Government. He would therefore move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr VOGEL said the hon member had every right to use all the Parliamentary forms for tho purpose of obstructing the bill if he thought proper to do so, but he would ask the hon member not to take up their time in unnecessary discussion or in dividing the House. He quite admitted that it was the right of every member to ascertain the opinion of the House by calling for one or two divisions, but if that course were repeated at every stage of the bill after the opinion of the House had been given it wouid very much obstruct the business of the session. In answer to the reference to the Wellington Loan he could only say that tho Government had kept tho account as strictly and as close as
they could possibly do. The Government had done exactly what the hon member himself had done in the case of Southland. They simply saw that tho expenses of gaols and police were met by the province as well as they could be, and that the Government were met by the provincial authorities in a spirit which justified the course that had been taken. The Govern- . ment did not think it right that the salaries of the officers should be allowed to fall into arrear. He could assure the hon member that the course adopted was not taken with the view of bringing pressure to bear on the House with regard to the loan bill, but solely with the desire to carry on the business of tho country. He did not think it necessary on that occasion to make any observations on the bill. He hoped the hon member would take every opportunity of taking a division for the purpose of obtaining the opinion of tho House, but he trusted he would not uselessly annoy hon members. If the bill were allowed to go on he would explain it on the second reading.
Mr COLLINS said if lie had any faith in the Government that they would confine themselves to the legal limits of their borrowing and spending powers, he would have no objection to vote for the bill, but be had no such faith. He was sorry to say that the object of the bill was simply to give them power year after year to add to the burdens of the country, and, looking at it in that light, it was the duty of the representatives of the people to endeavor by every means to obstruct any measure tho only object of which was to enable the Ministry to plunge them into further debt.
Mr CALDER simply rose to correct a statement made by the Colonial Treasurer, who stated that in the case of Wellington He land fund being left to tho province was similar to what had taken place under the Government of the hon member for Timam in the case of Southland. But that was a mistake, for at that time the revenue was entirely impounded by the Colonial Government ; the province had not one shilling of it. The province merely paid the expenses of gaols and police, and kept up the services which it would be wrong to allow to go to decay. He was wholly opposed to raising any further loans, as he believed the colony was at preaententered upon engagements altogether beyond its capacity to bear, and it was the duty of Parliament to put a limit to it. Ifc was the duty of the true friends of the Gc* vermnent to raise their voice against any further borrowing of this nature. Mr HUNTER complained of the treatments Wellington had received at the hands of hon members. He had listened with pain to many of the statements made by members on different occasions. If they would take tho trouble to inquire into the circumstances and history of the province they would discover that they had had large legacies left to them both by the New Zealand Company and the Government; the New Zealand Company having left them £27,000 worth of surveys in arrears. He hoped hon members would take the trouble to make themselves acquainted with the circumstances of tho province before they made assertions referring to its bankruptcy. He had been connected with tho province for thirty years, and he knew that if they were to recover from their difficulties, and he saw that they soon would, Wellington would not be one of tho foremost, but would bo tho foremost province of the colony. The question, that tho resolution be read a second time, was then put, and a division being called for, the result was:— Ayes, 44 ; Noes, 25. The question that the resolution he read a second time was then put. Mr MURRAY now clearly saw that tho whole policy of the Government was to involve the colony in an overwhelming debt. Then; policy was a purely haphazard one. It was a serious matter with them now whether they should indulge in further extravagance andmit® management. He felt so indignant at tbe proposals for further taxation that he could hardly speak calmly about. He looked upon the policy of the Government as a policy that could leave but one of two consequences—ruin or repudiation. Mr BUNNY thought the picture of the hon member was sufficient to throw a gloom not only over the country but over the House. The hon member had referred to tho person whose only interest in tho country was fcheiS? carpet bag and their pair of socks, but ha hoped the day would soon come when they would tax the property of tho country. Eq hoped before the session was closed the Go® vernment would come down with a resolution empowering them to bring down next session a bill to impose a property and income tax. Mr REID said it was evident that Ms Murray misunderstood the policy of the Go® vernment. That policy was one that was to send the colony ahead by placing it in a condition of unexampled prosperity. The Government were going to raise the dormant energies of the country and to eclipse the colonising efforts of any other country. We were now advancing at the rate of £IOO,OOO a year to the bad, last year the deficiency on tbe estimated ! reyenue amounting to half a million. It we 8 clear from tho extraordinary and lavish conduct of the Government that the country waa in a most prosperous state, so that he hoped hon members would not imagine that the Government were not endeavoring to conduct the business of the country in an economical way. Mr GISBORNE thanked the hon member for his lessons in political economy and finance. There was no doubt that be was well qualified for such a position, looking at the manner of his conducting the railways in Otago, and in the payment of arrears of debts. Mr WEBSTER had heard some disparaging remarks about Southland, but the fact was that they had only made the mistake of overtaxing their provincial energies. That province
had really initiated seven years ago the, present scheme which was now so much lauded as the new scheme of the Government. The cases of Wellington and Southland were not parallel. They were asked to advance money Km Wellington for the expense of over-govern-ment whife in the case of Southland they merely wished to be enabled to carry on profitable and reproductive works, which were now of great benefit to the province and the C ° After a sharp passage of arms between Messrs Reid and Vogel relative to transactions in Otago years ago, leave was given to introduce the bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time tomorrow.
THE RECIPROCITY BILL. Mr VOGEL said he wished to bring under the notice of the House a matter of some importance. Ho doubt members had received a circular on the subject of a bill passed by the House —the Colonial Reciprocity Bill. The Government had been asked in a despatch to express a further opinion upon the bill. The opinion of the Government was that the hill was one that it was highly desirable should become law. Still they thought it desirable to recommend its re-enactment, so that if any hon member desired to take any action upon the motion he might do so. As far as the Government were concerned the memorandum would lead to a motion to the effect that the House should, on Wednesday next, resolve itself into a committee of the whole to request his Excellency to give effect to the recommendation of the Colonial Industries Committee. THE TELEGRAM LIBEL CASE. f Mr STAFFORD asked the Government whether any further reply bad been received from the Secretary of State for the Colonies with reference to the free pardon granted to Mr Muston. Mr GISBORNE said there were only, two despatches received by the last mail, neither of which was of any importance to the House. THE BROGDEN CONTRACTS. Mr SHEPHERD asked the Government when the discussion on the Brogaen contracts would come on ? Mr VOGEL replied that he would an- ' nounce, either that evening or next day, the time when the Government would be prepared to go on with the debate. alteration oe the tarief. • Mr MURRAY asked the Government whether they intended to bring down a bill to lessen the incidence of taxation by the alteration of the tariff? Mr VOGEL said a general revision of the tariff would, he hoped, come on for discussion in a future session, but could not possibly come before the House during the present session. The Government would, in the meantime, take into its consideration the subject of how to equalise the taxation and reduce it. THE HONORARIUM. Mr HENDERSON brought on his. motion with reference to the honorarium, moving that it is advisable to discontinue the payment of the honorarium of 20s per day to the members of the Legislature, and that the sum of £lO5 be paid to each member.. His object was, and he had made calculations on the matter, to shorten the sitting of the. Parliament, and he thought that by fixing the amount their sessions would be very much shortened. Mr HARRISON said it had been suggested to him that if the object was to shorten the sittings of the House the payment of the £lO5 should be made on the first day of the session. Mr WAKEFIELD thought it would be rather anomalous to fix the payment, so that each member of the House should receive £lO5 for every session. Suppose they had two or three sessions in the year, would members draw the amount for each ? Mr WHITE said the ideas of the mover seemed very crude. An objection ne saw to these motions was that they always came on at the fag end of the session, instead of at the beginning. Mr MERVYN suggested that the figures £3OO should be substituted for the figures £l5O. His object in making the suggestion was that if they were going to legislate for Provincial Councils they might expect to be there for five or six months every year. The propositions submitted would not be at all ap- . plieable under those circumstances. As they were likely to sit as long as the Victorian Parliament be thought they should have a similar payment. Mr SWANSON thought the question should be submitted to a committee. The question was a very awkward one as it stood. It proposed to fix the sum at £lO5 for the session and to deduct £1 per day for every day a member were absent. Then supposing the session lasted only fifty days, a member who had chosen to absent himself for the whole Bession would still have £55 coming to him. PARATA said he had heard the sum of £3OO mentioned as the payment to each member. That would amount to a great deal of money for the European members, and he thought, as the Maori members were very few and did not take nearly so much money out of the revenue, that they should receive £4OO. Mr GISBORNE said the subject would take a great deal of time to discuss; and it was inappropriate when they were going into Committee of Supply to begin by helping themselves. It was better that they should reserve the question till a future session, so that they might have an opportunity of inquiring into precedents. Mr O’NEILL did not think the amount of £3OO at all too high pay for the patriots of the country, for the House was composed of patriots ; and patriotsfmust live, must drink, and to do all that they must have some suitable remuneration. Mr REYNOLDS suggested that the matter should be referred to a select committee. Mr REID opposed any alteration of the present system. Mr MACANDREW moved another amend-,
rnent to the effect that it was expedient, after the present session, that no amount beyond travelling expenses be paid to members of either house. Mr WAKEFIELD moved another amendment, pointing out that the vote for the present session having been passed, it was inexpedient that such a question should be brought up when there was so much really important business yet to got through by the House. After considerable argument and confusion of parliamentary form, the amendment of Mr Reynolds was carried. THE ESTIMATES. The discussion on the Estimates was opened on the vote for militia and volunteers. Mr Ingles made a fierce charge against the vote, proposing that the amount should be reduced by about £IB,OOO, and that a force of three hundred men, at a cost of about £12,000, should be substituted for the present vote of £28,393 13s 6d. Of these three hundred men he would place fifty in each of the principal seaports of the colony, to work heavy guns on \ the plan suggested by Captain Hutton. Nobody could dispute that the present volunteers were a ridiculous and most inefficient force. He would mention particularly the volunteers of Nelson, Marlborough, and Wellington, although li9 would except the Wellington Artillery, which he considered as fine a body of men as could be found in the world. He believed that some of the provinces had done good service, particularly Otago, the volunteers of which province were good marksmen, and that was the kind of thing he would liberally support. He would offer every enf couragement to rifle shooting, so as to make ' men really familiar with the rifle. Mr Bathgate supported the vote, which he hoped would not he reduced one penny. He denied that the volunteers were one whit behind the regulars in efficiency. Most of the improvements of modern days were attributable to the energy and efficiency of the volunteers; to such men as Captain M'Donald, to whom was due the credit of the reforms contained in the new drill book, and to Captain Moncrieff for his improvements in rifled ordnance. He would say on behalf of his corps that they were willing to accept a challenge from ten men of the best regiment of the line. Mr Bunny said there were certain of the red tape forms which added greatly to the expenses of the volunteers, which he would like to see altogether abolished. They did not want half of the clerks, who did a little correspondence of an entirely useless character, nor did they want the army of colonels and lieutenants, who were useful only in eating up a great amount of the vote. Mr D. M'Lean replied to the arguments of Mr Inglis, defending the vote and the volunteers 1 generally, but admitting that the volunteers of Nelson and Marlborough were not up the general standard of the volunteers of the i colony. Mr Pearce retorted on the disparg* ; ing remarks made upon the volunteers as a r body. As to the compliment paid to his own . corps, he would never consent to accept such p a compliment at the expense of the rest ©f the ; volunteers of the province or of the colony. > The sneers of the hon member fwere just r the ■ counterpart of a speech delivered in another > place a few days ago. The debate on the vote t occupied the greater part of the time or the evening, and was ultimately passed without [ reduction. Some other votes were passed , without any reduction, and at one o clock the ; House adjourned.
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZMAIL18711021.2.7
Bibliographic details
New Zealand Mail, Issue 39, 21 October 1871, Page 3
Word Count
19,619PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Mail, Issue 39, 21 October 1871, Page 3
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