THE TWO ARRESTS

New Zealand Herald, Volume LXXVI, Issue 23355, 25 May 1939, Page 13

THE TWO ARRESTS

DETECTIVES' TASK

MAN WITH BEARD FINDING EMPTY COFFIN LENGTHY INVESTIGATION A long statement made by Talbot took Detective-Sergeant J. Trethewev over half an hour to read. In it Talbot gave particulars of his early life and of hi-s association with McKay since 1927. Among other things, Talbot said that, while he and McKay were in London last year, McKay's share of profits in a deal of grassland rights in Papua was about £25,000. On the way home, ho told Talbot he would like to come to New Zealand to start a chain store grocery business, and when they arrived at Sydney McKay decided to see what were tho prospects in Now Zealand for the making of a canned sealing compound.

Arrival at, Auckland When they left Australia, Talbot said, lie had about £4O and McKay about £2OO in Australian money. He went into the circumstances of their arrival in Auckland, on February 6, the extraction of MpKay's remaining nine teeth, their going to Piha, and the fire. The rental car was used only twice, he said, and tho only petrol bought was what was put in the car at the rental station.

Talbot said he know McKay was insured, he thought for £40,000, and he knew also that McKay wore a signet ring with his initials on it. On February 22, Detective-Sergeant Aplin and witness went to 17 Ash Street, Avondale, where Mrs. Hearling handed him a long-handled shovel and a sack from her garage. There was a small amount of clay on the bottom of the handle of the shovel, and he collected some small pieces of clay from the floor of the garage. He handed the exhibits on to Mr. Griffin on February 22. On February .23, with others, he opened the grave of McKay at the Waikumete Cemetery, and found the casket properly screwed down. Inside was a large cardboard box, tied with strong twine, which was identified by Constable Pollard.

Ex-soldier's Grave Mr. Aplin and he took samples from 28 cemeteries in the neighbourhood, including two from Waikumete,- and these were handed to the Government analyst. _ _ In a further interview with Talbot, witness pointed out that the car he had rented had' done 182 miles over the week-end, and that two trips to Piha would account for only about 100 miles. Talbot later said they had gone to Onehunga, but witness said that accounted for only another 15 miles. On March 2, witness saw the Government analyst take five clay samples from the Waikumete Cemetery, and at 5 a.m. on March 10, he saw the grave of Patrick Henry Shine opened under warrant in the presence of four doctors and a health inspector. In the clay they found two second-hand casket screws and a piece of rope. The casket, which was not screwed down, contained no body, but only pieces, of clay. Samples of the clay were taken, and the casket returned to the grave. Later that morning witness asked Talbot to call at the detective office to identifv a ring found in the debris at Piha.'and Talbot went there with him. At the office Talbot said the ring was McKay's.

Mention of Shine "I tlien said to Talbot," witness continued, " 'Did von know a man named Patrick Henry Shine?' He received a groat shock and was extremely dumbfounded. After about a minute he said 'No'." Witness told Talbot it was believed that the bones found at Piha were those of Patrick Henry Shine. Talbot received a further great shock, and, after a long pause, said he did not know anything about it. He added later that it was absurd to think the body was not McKay's, and he sat for a time, apparently in a trance. About 20 minutes later, witness continued, Mr. Aplin returned with a warrant for Talbot's arrest, on the charge of interfering with Shine's remains. Talbot received a shock. He slumped on his chair and said lie knew nothing about it. Among his effects was found a two-cell torch. The. Second Arrest

On March-22, witness continued, lie and Mr. Aplin went to a house in Grafton Road. He related the circumstances of the arrest at 10.5 p.m. or a bearded man, whom they believed was McKay on the charge of interfering with Shine's remains. The man denied lie was McKay, or that he knew a man named Talbot. His beard and hair were long?, and he was without teeth. Up to that time he acted sensibly, but on the way to the police station he pretended tf) be silly. At the station, when the warrant was read to him, lie said: "I don't know what you mean," but when the warrant was read a second time, he remained silent. The next morning the detectives found a handkerchief marked "Gordon McKay" in his room, as well as food and cooking utensils. When arrested he had in his pocket a pair of hornrimmed spectacles, similar to those described by Shine's son.

Witness identified Talbot's signature on the cablegrams sent to Sydney.

To Mr. Noble: Airs. liearling handed him a long-handled shovel and a sack, which she said were left in the garage by the two men who rented it. Cross-examined by Mr. Terry: Up to the time he and Detective-Sergeant Aplin undertook the case on February 17, Constable Pollard, of Henderson,

and Constable Boag, of New Lynn, had been in charge of the inquiries. Constable Pollara began an inquest that was adjourned. Mr. Terry: He commenced an inquest 011 the Monday, and made no adverse reports against Talbot? Witness: He did not know anything about insurance. Talbot apparently had withheld the insurance from him. The first steps you took were the obtaining of a lengthy statement from Talbot at the police station? —Oh, no. Our first steps -were to see the debris at Piha was properly sieved, and for the exhumation of the remains of McKay, which had been buried. By mistake?— Yes.

Then the next step was a statement on February 17, which you took from Talbot at the detective office That is a very lengthy statement. —Yes, it covered all the questions I could think of at that time. '

It would be correct to say he answered freely every topic you put to him?— Yes, but incorrectly. How long did "the statement take? —I think, five hours. Empty Cartridge Shells

Witness said he had had to ask Talbot about McKay's insurance. Talbot's statement that McKay had made inquiries about a business here was true and so were a number of other statements he made. Two empty .22 shells were found in the debris at Piha, and at one time they thought it was possibly a case of murder. That was why he asked Talbot so particularly about his rifle. It was Talbot's own statement that McKay intended to go to Wellington. Mr. Terry asked why witness had not asked Talbot straight out if he had been to Avondale.

Witness: I had my reasons. He might have left bv the next boat.

You had no right to ask him a trick question.—lt was not a trick question. Question About Photograph

After asking about the custody in which the bones were kept, Mr. Terry asked if the witness had any explanation of how the bones and the box in which they were came to be photographed'and the picture published. "Witness said he had none.

Was it not a very surprising thing? —lf it was so. _

Do you not know such a photograph was published?— No. I heard something about it.

"Where did the reporters get the information from? —Not from the police. You suggest you had 710 interviews witli any reporters?— Plenty of interviews, but no information.

His Honor's Comment His Honor asked 'how the questions asked could help the Court in the case. Questions, he said, should be confined to relative matters. Mr. Terry said that statements appeared in the press, apparently carrying the imprimatur of the police. Mr. Terry (to witness): There was a statement, for example, in one of. the papers, that you were inquiring into the interference with graves in the' Auckland Province. Did you see that? —Yes.

"Where could they get that statement from but from the police?— From quite a number of people. His Honor: I fail to see what this cross-examination is directed toward.

Mr. Terry: It is directed this way—there were statements in the paper which seemed to Talbot to have come from the police, which indicated that serious doubts were being cast on the death of McKay. Mr. Meredith objected to the questions, since, he said, questions should be relevant to the inquiry, and that inquiry only. Obviously, he added, the foregoing questions bore no relation whatever to the case. Interview With Accused

Mr. Terry (to witness): There was no doubt, was there, that the papers made positive assertions? —They seemed to get the information, hut not from the police. Witness agreed that some of the published reports were against the interests of the police and the accused. He had read also that there was a theory .that McKay might have wandered out of the bach and left it, unknown to Talbot.

Witness said it was not just a subterfuge when he asked Talbot to come to the police station to identify the ring. After the way Talbot reacted to his questions it was obvious that he knew about Patrick Henry Shine. Talbot might not be the brains'-of the scheme. The room in which Talbot was interviewed was not well lit, and was ill-furnished. They had an ordinary conversation with Talbot in the ordinary wav.

Mr. Terry: You had no right at all to have interrogated Talbot as you did that day. " Witness: I say we had.

I put it that you went down Queen Street to arrest Talbot? —It is untrue. It is very significant, isn't it, that you arrested him three minutes after his arrival? —He was arrested on instructions from the inspector. Sir. Terry's cross-examination'of this witness was adjourned until the Court resumes this morning.