DEPUTATION TO PREMIER.

New Zealand Herald, Volume LI, Issue 15659, 13 July 1914, Page 9

DEPUTATION TO PREMIER.

BALLOT-PAPER CRITICISED.

MR. MASSEY EXPLAINS.

ALL PARTIES TO BE HEARD.

[BY TELEGRAPH.—SPECIAL correspondent.]

Weixixcto.v, Sunday. A large deputation, representing the National Schools Defence League, waited upon tho Prime Minister yesterday for the purpose of urging that the Referendum Bill be not passed. The deputation was introduced by the Hon. A. L. Herdman. Professor Hunter, of Wellington, said the league felt it had not been treated fairly by the Government. When its deputation saw Mr. Massey in August last, they understood clearly that he was utterly opposed to what might be called sectarianism in the schools, and, further, that so long as the Government was in office nothing would be done that was not consistent with the principle of free, secular, and compulsory education. The league had thought that if .a Bill came before Parliament it would be a private member's Bill. 'It had, in consequence, not organised, and was thus at a great disadvantage, for the people were not enlightened on fli6 real issues.

Proceeding, Professor Hunter said it was clear that the Bible in Schools League had information not given to the league represented by the deputation. The Minister for Education, a member of the Cabinet, and head of the Education Department, had introduced a Bill framed in such a way as to facilitate the wishes of the Bible m Schools League. Demands of the Deputation. Further, Professor Hunter said, the members of the National Schools Defence League protested against the people being asked to vote on the introduction into the schools of a book they had never seen, and which was not yet compiled. Thev protested against the proposal to compel State school teachers to give general religious teaching, notwithstanding their conscientious objections. The deputation asked that if the Bill was gone on with: (1) Thai Cabinet and the Education Department be completely dissociated from the Bill; (2) that i'f the Bill passed its second reading, they should be given full opportunity of bein" heard by the Education Committee before the Bill was considered bv the House in Committee; (3) that the issues he divided and clearly stated; (4) that the present national svstem be given its rightful place on the ballot paper; (5) that no ballot be taken until the proposed test-book bad been compiled and the electors had had a reasonable opportunity of becoming acquainted with its contents; (6) that provision be made for subsequent and regular referenda on this question, as is the case on the licensing poll; (7) that in no case should any individual, clerical or lay, be given the right to appoint a substitute to give lessons in the State schools within school hours; (8) that a conscience clause be provided. Separate or Combhed Issues. The league most emphatically protested against the omission from the ballot paper of the present national system, which should have its rightful place as the first issue on the ballot paper. It also protested against the combination of two distinct issues, and asked that they be separated and adequately described. The form of ballot paper suggested was :— 1. I vote for the present national system of education, free, compulsory, and secular. 2. I vote that the clergy bo given the right of entry into State schools, within school hours, to give sectarian teaching. 3. I vote that the State school teachers be compelled (without a conscience clause) to give general religious teaching in State schools.

Delegates from the Labour Conference, claiming to represent 43,500 votes, supported the Defence League. Prime Minister's Reply. Mr. Massey, in replying, said the first speaker had found fault with the Government, saving that the Defence League had not been treated fairly. (Hear, hear.) There was another side to the story. He had taken down every word he (the Premier) had said to last year's deputation, and what he bad said was " Perhaps he might not be as good a Christian as he ought to be, but he wanted to tell the deputation this, that ho believed in the Bible, and stood by the Bible every time." In sayinc that, he was opposed to anything that could bo called sectarianism in tho schools of the country. Mr. Massey went on, " And I say now that it is a very sorry state of affairs when, in a Christian community, the Christian sects uhould combine to keep a knowledge of the Bible out of the schools. I think it is a sorry state of affairs when tho representatives of tho Christian sects do not see their way to join and arrange a system by which Biblical instruction would bo imparted in the public schools, historically or otherwise." This, proceeded Mr. Massey, was not the first 'time this matter had come before the country. In 1905, a Bill was introduced providing for Bible lessons in schools. It was introduced by a private member. Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. Jennings, both Roman Catholics, voted for the second reading of that Bill. A Voico: That was not for denominational education. Mr. Massey: There is no use quibbling over it. The question was whether the public should have an opportunity or expressing an opinion upon the referendum. A Voice: The right of entry. That is very different. Mr. Massey. Everything was included in that. Look at the discussion and the Bill.

Mr. Massey proceeded to say that dozens of letters had been sent to him from workers all over the Dominion supporting him and asking for a referendum. Mr. McLaren: As individuals. Season for the Present Bill. Mr. Massey: Yes; but they are very prominent and well-known men. The Government, he went on, had introduced the Bill because members supporting the Bible in schools question and those who did not—Cabinet was divided on the question—considered that when 140,000 or 150,000 people asked for a referendum it would not be right to stand in the way of giving an opportunity for an expression of opinion if Parliament was willing. The Bill was being prepared by Mr. Allen, not as Minister for Education. No pressure had been brought to bear upon a member to vote for the Bill. They must not imagine that the thing was settled when the referendum was takon, because it would lie with the Government to settle the details of the Bill. A Voice: They are settled. Mr. Massey: Thoy are not. He believed tho term " referendum" was wrong. It should be plebiscite. If three-fourths of the people voted for the proposallie was not saying they would— would then be for Parliament to go into tho matter. Government's Hands Not Tied. The Rev. Knowles Smith: You will find that Canon Garland has you by the back wool. Mr. Massey: I assure you my hands are not tied. Continuing, Mr. Massey said that the petitions that had been received would bo considered by the Education Committee of the House, and both sides would have an opportunity of giving evidence. The Government did not interid to give any advantage to one side or the other, and proposed to give everybody a straight run and an opportunity of deciding whether there should bo Bible reading in the schools or not. If they approved, he hoped that arrangements would be made to keep sectarianism out of tho schools. MANY MEETINGS HELD. RESOLUTIONS FOR AND AGAINST. Resolutions in support of the Referendum Bill were adopted on Friday night by a meeting of the Auckland Biblo-in-Schools Leaguo held in tho Pitt Street Methodist schoolroom; by the South Auckland Provincial Committee of tho Bible-in-State-Schools League; and by the Pukekohe branch of the league; the Papakura and Wainkn branches of the Women's League; the vestry of St; Paul's Anglican Church. Huntly; the congregation of St. George's Anglican Church, Thames, and St. John's Anglican Church, Tararu; the Paeroa and Huntly branches of the C.E.M.S.; the managers of the Epsom Presbyterian Church; tho Presbvterian churches at To Awamutu and Ellerslie; tho Onehtinga Methodist circuit; the quarterly meeting of the Port Albert Methodist' Church; tho Salvation Army, Hamilton; and the Auckland and Ponsonby branches of the W.C.T.U. Resolutions protesting against the passing of the Referendum Bill were carried on Friday evening at a meeting of teachers, held under tho auspices of the National Schools Defence League, in the Chamber of Commerce; and by a meeting of the St. Benedict's branch of the Sacred Heart Sodality.