A MILD CENSURE.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLIX, Issue 15131, 23 October 1912, Page 8

A MILD CENSURE.

UNPARLIAMENTARY WORDS

USED BY SIR JOSEPH WARD.

HE. REFUSES TO WITHDRAW.

A STORM IN COMMITTEE.

fnY TELEGRAPH—SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT-

Wellington, Tuesday. An hour wa s occupied by the Public Accounts Committee this morning in discussing the incident at its meeting on Friday, when Sir Joseph Ward characterised a direction from the chairman as " a downright piece of impertinence." Last evenin- the. matter was debated by the House of "Representatives with the result that the committee's report was referred back for further consideration. When tho committee met this morning Sir Joseph Ward took exception to the minutes of Friday's meeting. Ho urged that the words used by the chairman ot the committee should be put in. The Chairman (Mr. J. B. Hine) : Which words ? Sir J. Ward : Where he asked me to answer straight or refuse to give an answer. Mr. Hine : It devolves on the committee to say whether tho minutes are a true record or not. Sir J. Ward repeated that tho chairman had asked him to give a straight answer. Mr. Hine : I said, " I must ask you to answer tho question." Sir Joseph Ward : Or refuse to answer. The press have reported it as I say. A Debatable Point.

Mr. Myers (to the chairman) : When you used the remarks, did you intend that they should be in an offensive manner? Mr. Hine: I must rule that you cannot raise that Question. Mr. Myers : I bow to your decision, but it seems to me

Mr. Hino: I 'must ask you to resume your seat. Mr. Myers : I bow to your ruling. Thank you very much. Sir Joseph Ward moved that the- words "answer the question straight" be inserted in the report. Mr. Hine: Sir Joseph Ward has a perfect right to diesent from the minutes, but I cannot accept his motion. I cannot have added to the minutes what I did not say/;".-:••. •>< - ■*.-•. <> .**/- • .'_ % Mr. Graigio said he did not remember the chairman using the word "straight" at all. * He said) "I ask you,to answer the question or, refuse to answer it." • Mr. Pearce moved t that the*, words "or refuse ,to; answer it" added to the minutes. '•' .; I't This -was agreed -, to. \- ; ; .'---. ■' . Sir J. Ward : I; wish to record my protest against the 'minutes being still inaccurate. . The minutes were confirmed. - Sir J. Ward dissenting. ;• Sir . J. : } Ward Asked ; 'to v Withdraw. /.The, Chairman -bow stated that he thought it his duty, in the face of what Mr. : Speaker had said—that the words used were unparliamentary— ask > Sir Joseph Ward to withdraw the statement that," It was a. downright piece ;of impertinence." He .asked Sir Joseph Ward, to do so.;; ..,, S- Sir J. Ward; 'I thought the, report, was before us for consideration';' I rise in protest before, I deal with the; matter..".'; ':■•. "Mr.' Hine : I cannot allow any- comment. ; ; i; Declines to Withdraw. v - >;/■ . Sir J. Ward: I want to say at once that I '■■.■refuse to , withdraw: the-, words. I will withdraw them only ;- after <•; the -' chairman has: withdrawn 'I his ; words to me. ••;- They were uncalled for. and contrary to fact.

Mr. Hine : We. can only..'report thai,. Sir Joseph "Ward still refuses •■ to withdraw - the words.

I"; Sir J. Ward : The Speaker ruled. the House that this matter could riot come in the committee after it had been reported to the House. ; The chairman had declined to let the matter be discussed until he (Sir J. Ward} had withdrawn. '/

- j An * f Appeal 'by the Minister. Hon. J. Allen : " Might I ask Sir Joseph Ward to consider his position, and also the position of each one of us, and the position of the committee, and urge him as strongly as I can personally to withdraw* the words. If he has any grievance, if the. words are withdrawn, let us have his grievance out, and let us consider it. I am perfectly willing to consider any grievance he has' in a non-party and nonpolitical way, and do not want to move any resolution. ".Might I ask you as a friend," said Mr. Allen, turning to Sir Joseph Ward, " and speaking in a friendly way, and.not in , any political spirit, to reconsider the situation and put us in the position, if'you'have any grievance, of being able to consider it? # "

Still Determined. " I can only,thank Mr. Allen as I do for his suggestion," ] replied Sir Joseph Ward." but I' regret I cannot accept it. I looked upon the .chairman's statement as particularly offensive at the time, and uncalled for because I had answered the question. As a matter of fact I would prefer to receive the censure of the House than withdraw the statement, which I believe I was justified in making. The House sent the report here for reconsideration, and the chairman lias declined to allow a member to speak to that report in a way that one can only describe as that of a martinet. If the chairman had withdrawn what I regarded as offensive, 1 would have withdrawn and apologised also.

An Adjournment. At this stage the committee accepted a motion by Mr. Allen that it should adjourn for half an-hour. On resuming, the chairman stated that the question before the committee was the report, referred back by the House, and he asked for a motion on the matter. Hon. J. Allen again asked Sir Joseph Ward whether lie would withdraw fie words. " I can only say that 1 cannot see my way to do as is suggested," was Sir Joseph Ward's reply. "I have no personal feeling against Mr. Hine of any sort or kind. I felt at the time that the statement was very offensive to me as a public man. He (Mr. Hine) thinks it was all right. I can't, and I won't, press him to make it possible tor me to Jo as 1 might have done."

References to Party Spirit. Mr. Allen: Ii the circumstances I must move that the committee report to the House that Mr. J. Ward refused to withdraw the words complained of. Sir J. Ward : I do not propose, to take any part in the discussion, or vote upon it. Mr. llana here made a remark that it was not usual for a chairman to take upon himself to dictate. The chairman asked that the words be withdrawn. Mr. Hanai said he had referred to chairmen generally, and the chairman admitted that Mr.. Hainan was entitled to do so.

Mr. Hanan suggested that the chairman and Sir. J. Ward should meet in a cordial way. ... Mr. Hine: The chairman's action is not under discussion. I must ask you to leave any action of the chairman out of your remarks. , Mr. Hanan then made mention , of party feeling on the committee and spoko of "the party chairman." The chairman Tided Mr. Hanan out of order in referring to party spirit.

| Peace Overtures. Mr. Myers said he believed Sir Joseph Ward had used the, expression, which was undoubtedly unparliamentary, because he believed that a personal affront had been placed upon him. He (Mr. Myers) did not believe that the chairman desired or meant any personal affront. If the chairman had not intended any affront and would say so— Mr. Hine: I must ask you to drop that course of argument. Mr. Craigio remarked that Mr. Myers was on the right track. Mr. Myers again said ho did not believe for a moment that tho chairman intended any affront. Mr. Hanan: Why cannot .the chairman say so? Mr. Hine: I must ask you again to desist from referring to '.ho chairman's action.

Motion to Report Sir Joseph Ward Carried Mr. Pearce again asked that the words used by Sir Joseph Ward should bo withdrawn. Sir Joseph Ward said it had been ruled by the chairman that ho should withdraw before consideration of the report by the House. It was only fair that an amendment should be included in tho report. Mr. Hine ruled that he could not accept tho amendment. He had given' the* committee an opportunity of taking the -ruling of the Speaker as to whether his (Mr. Hine's) ruling was correct or incorrect. The committee had not taken that opportunity, so he must rule tho amendment out.

The motion to report Sir Joseph Ward's refusal to withdraw to the House was carried, Mr. Hanan voting "no." It was agreed on the motion of Mr. Hanan that a full report of tho incident as far as available should be submitted to the House.

DECISION OF THE HOUSE,

SIR J. WARD UNREPENTANT

EXPRESSION OF REGRET.

AT SIR JOSEPH WARD'S

ACTION.

[BY TELEGRAPH—SPECIAL COuRESF-OXBENT.J Wellington', Tuesday. « The report from the committee came before " the House this afternoon. Sir Joseph Ward reviewed the morning's proceedings. He said the record of the proceedings would show that every member of the committee who, attempted to speak was-ruled, with a rod of iron. He had never before known the members of a committee placed in a position of absolute absence of freedom ; of utterance. '-' Not only had' the chairman not extended facilities or; the settlement ? of the dispute, but 'his .attitude 'h throughout the proceedings was hostile, and the = very opposite to conciliatory, and tending to increase the friction. Sir Joseph Ward asked for a . ruling whether'.. .> the; -• committee's - procedure ■in l setting ..aside the order of the. House was proper. ,-. C "* y .,\ -" ; '•"■' ■'■'".. /'/-■ ' ■ ,'.'■ --;Mr. "Hine, said that' every ' time he ,ruled he pointed out that it was in the power of the committee 'to challenge; his ruling, . and; to report the matter to . the . House. .Thel'; members ;■• of the 'committee ?- did not take that opportunity, and he thought Sir Joseph Ward was not within his rights in -raising the matter. -..*-"• " •"■"■"X? ' Mr. : Speaker replied .that it /was the 'invariable - practice for thV. chairman to decide all points"-of; order, and the j. Speaker had no power to interfere, unless the com:mittee, by resolution, } requested him , to do' so. _No such resolution had r been passed, • and therefore it was not his province to give any ruling upon the question. The chairman's ruling I was final arid conclusive. . Sir Joseph Ward spoke at" length on' the matter insisting : ' that the committee bad riot:.:- considered the 7 order of the House to reconsider its report. ,'*.■',;,. ' ;.' Mr. Harian-; severely criticised. the attitude of ; j the ; chairman v of the committee, declaring that he gagged members ;by his ridings,' and conducted the proceedings in a high-handed manner. '■■ The matter would ■have been fettled had Mr. Hinebeeri willing to assist in its settlement, but lie had adopted an independent, indifferent, and ' "arrogant attitude. !"•' Mr. Allen said he was sorry that members of the r other side had very strong feelings against Mr. Hine because of his action in the- past. , . Sir Joseph Ward: It is not so. . Mr. Allen: . Everybody knows it is so. and it is exhibited' every now and then. I know he is a: man of strong feeling, and I want ; to tell to the House that I.believe he held himself in check in a very remarkable way. Mr. Allen declared that the right course was for Sir Joseph Ward to withdraw the words in question. " Even at this stage I hope he will withdraw the words," said Mr. Allen, " and I aril perfectly sure the member for Stratford will meet him in a i perfectly generous way if he does. ,If be did withdraw the words it would bo evidence not of weakness, but of a etrong character." (Hon. members : Hear, hear.") The debate was interrupted by the dinner adjournment. The galleries were crowded in the evennig, when the debate was resumed by .Mr. Witty (Kiccarton). He said he considered it was Mr. Hine's.duty to meet Sir Joseph Ward half-way. # Mr. Isitt (Christchurch North) said that m Mr. lime's remark there was a distinct implication that a man' who was on oath had either suppressed the? truth or had suggested the false. -It was idle to suggest that the chairman meant anything else. Being the first cause of offence, Mr? Hino should have ( been the first to'hold out the olive branch. '

Olive Branch not Accepted. Mr. Myers (Auckland East) said he had endeavoured to hold out the olive branch but it was not accepted. He was peremptor! ruled out of order by the chairman. Mr. Hino had not been "tactful. Hon. J. Allen : In what way ? Mr. Myers: It was the way he said it Mr. Myers suggested that the Lender of the House should move that no further action should be taken in the matter.

The Chairman Attacked. Mr. Forbes (Huninui) characterised Mr. lime's remark as a most unprovoked piece of deliberate rudeness. "Ho had no right to put in Iris oar as lie did." Mr. Forbes remarked: "The Prime Minister knows that his manner is most irritating." The Prime Minister: I do not. Mr. Forbes: I don't ask you to answer, because he is a member of your party, but 1 do ask that you should'put in fit'and proper men as chairmen. Mr. G. M. Thomson (Dunedin North): You have no right to say that: you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Mr. Poorco (PateaJ said Mr. Hi ne was a fair and just chairman, though his manner might be abrupt.

"A Paltry Standing Order." .Mr. McCallum (Wairau) expressed the opinion that Mr. Hine was being let off very easily for having flouted the instructions of the House by his action in refusing to allow the matter to be discussed again. It was due to his honour that Sir Joseph Ward should angrily and vehemently refute a statement that was a charge of either prevarication or lying. Mr. McCallum advised Sir Joseph Ward to suffer any penalty of the House in vindication of his character, rather than adhere to the strict observance of a paltry Standing Order.

A Cup of Tea to Settle It. " I am inclined to the opinion that there were faults on both sides," said Mr. Harris (Waitcmata). He advised Sir

Joseph Ward and Mr. Hine to settle their differences ovor a cup of tea, and then return to tho Chamber and withdraw and apologise. If the question went to a division he must vote to uphold the ruling of Mr. Speaker. ....... , Hon!" F. M. B. Fisher (Minister for Marino) said that the attack made upon tho chairman of the committee was entirely unwarranted. Ho knew of no occasion on which the ruling of the chairman having been questioned, the chair had been asked to apologise.

Mr. Hine in Reply. The debate was continued by Messrs. Macdonald (Bay of Plenty) and Atmoro (Nelson). Mr. Hine, in reply, said that when tho volcano burst ho was thunderstruck. (Laughter.) Ho was thunderstruck by the attack on the chair. . Mr. Myers : Did you mean it to bo offensive?

Mr. Speaker : Order. Mr. Hino expressed a hope that Sir Joseph Ward would do the honourable thing and withdraw. Objection to this remark was taken by Sir Joseph Ward in a personal explanation, i ~ ~ The motion that the report he on the table was carried on tho voices.

Sir Joseph Ward Leaves the House. Mr. Speaker called upon Sir Joseph Ward to state whether ho had any explanation or withdrawal to make with regard to the words. " When ho has mado his statement," continued Mr. Speaker, "if he does not withdraw his words it will be his dutv to withdraw from the House while the House considers what action it will take." . . "I regret I cannot see my way to withdraw the words," Sir Joseph Ward replied. Ho proceeded to review the wholo circumstances, and said ho regarded tho chairman's interjection as extremely offensive. " I regret exceedingly," ho said, "having to take the course I am taking, because during a long political life- in this country I have never been in conflict with tho Speaker or the Chairman of Committees." In conclusion, he said ho would now submit himself to the House. He would accept whatever judgment the House passed upon him. Sir Joseph Ward then withdrew from the, House,

A Motion of Regret. Amidst applause from his own side the Prime Minister expressed his deep regret that such an incident had occurred. In a calm and dignified speech he briefly outlined tho position and said he felt just as much regret in moving the motion in regard to Sir Joseph Ward as if ho were moving it in regard to one of his own colleagues. There was, however, no alternative open to him, because they were bound to maintain the dignity of tit© chair and to support its rulings. There was,- ho pointed out, a proper parliamentary method for challenging the ruling of the chair, and. he regretted that Sir Joseph Ward had not taken advantage of that course. Mr. Speaker had ruled that the words uttered by Sir Joseph Ward were not only unparliamentary but also a breach of privilege. He moved : — That this. House expresses its regret that the hon, member for Awarua. has not thought proper to withdraw words that have been taken down and reported by the chairman of the Public Accounts ' Committee.

A February. Incident. Mr. Hanon reminded the House- that upon a motion dictated by the kindly feelings of the then Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Ward) the House had resolved, in February last, not to consider further a breach of -privilege which it had declared had 'been, committed by Mr. Massey, then Leader of the Opposition. Ho expressed tho opinion that a similar motion -would meet the present case. Hon. J. Allen said this speech was unfair, because the circumstances were so dissimilar. ... Mr.. Hanan : There was provocation in each case. ■•—" Mr. Allen said that twice in the Committee and again in tho House Sir J. Ward had declined to withdraw an obvious" insult to the chairman. ' In the other case 1 Mr. Massey had publicly withdrawn, and apologised. ' ' / ; ; *Mr. Isitt : He refused to produce the letter. - . ."'

An Amendment Defeated. Mr. Robertson (Otaki) moved :— That this House, while recognising that it is the duty of a member to withdraw any expression ruled by the Speaker or the chairman to be unparliamentary, considers that in the case of the member for Awarua tho circumstances were such as to warrant the House in proceeding no further in the matter. .

The amendment was seconded by Mr. Voitch (Wanganni). Ho said Sir Joseph Ward was a defeated leader, and in the ditch politically, and in the circumstances it was very hard that the House should have to put its foot on his neck. Ho added that if the amendment was not carried, hewould vote for the motion as being as near a just conclusion as the House could get. The House wont to a division shortly before midnight, and the amendment was negatived by 38 votes to 33. The Prime Minister's motion was carried by 39 votes to 32. The divisions were an party lines with the exception that on the second division Mr. Veitch voted with the Government party. Messrs. Mander, Coatee, and Reed, who were in the! House during the evening, did. not vole. Sir Joseph Ward Accepts Censure. A message was sent to Sir Joseph Ward by the Sergeant at Arms, requesting him to return to tho Chamber. On his reap- : pearance he was vigorously applauded by tho Opposition. ; Sir Joseph Ward remained standing ; while Mr.' Speaker communicated to him the decision of the -House. j

In reply Sir Joseph Ward said he very much regretted that he had felt it necessary to incur the displeasure of tho House. If he had not felt that an insult had been levelled against him and had he not looked upon the matter as politically offensive, Jio would not have taken _ such • a" firm stand. He had watched with a great deal of zealousness the beginning *of these unfortunate .proceedings in order to seo whether there was any indication from Mr. Hine of any suggestion that, he .did not intend his (remarks to be offensive, and if at any time he had given utterance to any indication of that character he (Sir Joseph Ward) should have at' once withdrawn the words and apologised to the House and to the committee of which' ho was a member.

He regretted exceedingly that the circumstances were of such a nature that no otlior course had been open to him than to accept the censure of the House. Ho accepted it in all humility, but from the standpoint of having put on record a strong protest against what ho believed to be the "partial conduct of the Chairman of Committees, who ought under all circumstances to be impartial, no matter what side of politics he might be on. Ho thanked those members of the House who had been good enough to speak in his favour, and who had done him the honour of voting for him. He accepted the decision of tho House under circumstances of a peculiar nature, but with equanimity, believing that ho could take no other course consistent with his honour, and what he thought his duty as a public man.

Sir Joseph Wand resumed his sent amidst, further Opposition applause, and the incident was ended by Mr. Speaker calling on tho next order of the day.