THE SECOND BALLOT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLV, Issue 13845, 3 September 1908, Page 6

THE SECOND BALLOT.

■:';■■;-') .;■. ; ; : i ' 1,,.', /'" "".„.',„'.;♦",',.,, ~,,, ■;' ~ ■" ■' -','-: --".: : ,-j '':■'':.■ \ A SPIRITED DEBATE. SECOND READING CARRIED. [BY TKLIGIt-VTH.— rßi:<s ASSOCIATION.] Wellington*, Wednesday. In the House of Representatives this even- ; ing tha Prime Minister \ moved the second , reading of the Second Ballot Bill, designed to prevent any candidate at a Parliamentary election being returned by a minority of the total number of votes recorded, by providing for a second ballot between the.can- -\ didates obtaining first and second places at the first ballot in cases where neither of such candidates at such ballot shall have polled an absolute majority of the votes ; recorded.-., ';;.. > •'',' Sir Joseph Ward said he recognised the j Bill was a very important one. It was abso'ulely provided that the second poll, if necessary, should take place on the seventh day after the first poll, except in the electorates of the Bay Of Islands, Bay of Plenty, Kaipara, Marsden, Taumarunui, Tamanga, Wakatipu, Wallace, Westland, where the second poll wou;d take place 14 days after the first poll. Referring to the reasons of the- Government tor bringing down the measure, he said he held that the majority should rule in everything. A significant fact of the recent elections was the increasing number- of members returned to Parliament by a minority. In 1899 there Mere | seven (three Government and four Opposition), in 1902 there were 14 (six Government and eight Opposition), and in 1905 15 (12 Government and three Opposition). The "time would come when the majority of mem'bers would represent a minority .ot electors. • He wanted to say that it was 'impossible to devise a perfect system with regard to the absolute majority. " The only country where that system had been tried for any time was Queenlsand, where it had ■been''proved a failure, and he was advised that the system was ineffective unless the contingent" vote were made compulsory. With regard to the second ballot-, he declared it had been tried in Germany, than which no other country had made so great a step forward with, the exception of oar own, and, although it had "' been in force 40 years, there was no demand for its abolition. Experience was against the argument that the people would not vote at the second ballot. Referring to the possibility of corruption, he said supposing electors could be corrupted, seven days was not long enou -h to suborn many votes, but he'*refused to believe free electors of this country were open to such an influence. It might be said that this measure should be referred to the electors before going on the Statute Book. In cases where it was proposed to increase and riot curtail the'rights of the electors it was not customary to refer the measure to the people beforehand. He would remind members that in the past, under the present system, minority results had again and again been produced by dummy candidates being put "up. men who had no chance of being returned, but who were paid to stand between two legitimate candidates to split the votes. Referring to the inconvenience of the second ballot, he argued that the general election should take place on a who'e holiday. Wednesday should _be made the day for the election, and if -a second ballot "were necessary the following Wednesday should be made a whole holiday. Referring to the Maoris, Sir Joseph said they were not included, owing to' their special circumstances. ;He did not think the time was ripe for the Maoris to vote for Europeans. They should have a clear, clean-cut issue. - MR. MASSE VIEWS Sir Massey said the Prima Minister had ably defended a very bad cause. His speech was one rather against the absolute majority than for the second baUot. They were told the Maoris were to be exempted. Why? Because they should have a clear, clean-cut issue. Were not Europeans to shave a clear, dean-cut issue? Everybody j knew why the Bill was brought down. It '*§»• hi ought down for ; party purposes. Let them imagine the amount of wire-pulling which would go en in those seven or 14 days. The -Prime: Minister ; said private money could not suborn many votes in that time, but be (Mr. Massey) declared that it was not private money; but the Government in power they would have to fear, especially where the strength J of the parties was nearly equal, as a result of the first 'ballot. He declared the 'electors would not go in any number to the second poll, and the second ballot would involve loss of time and money to the electors. The Bill contained ;a. very important principle, . however. It disfranchised minorities: The; question ; for that House to consider was, were they going to say minorities should not have representation? Was there any member illiberal enough to say minorities should have no show in the House? ;;Under the second ballot system the first and second candidates at the first ballot might neither represent the popular view. He would rather support the proportional representation system, under which every man in the country would be represented in Parliament. "Mr. Massey went on to quote speeches from Hansard bv the Hon: R. McNab, in 1902, and the Hon. G. Fowlds, in 1905, to show that both Ministers had argued against the second ballot, as calculated to produce political corruption. The Hon. J. A. Millar had also advocated representation for minorities in his speech on the Absolute Majority Bill. OTHER MEMBERS. The Hon. J. A. Millar congratulated Mr. Massey upon bis return ■to his , old style, but "his only argument against the Bill apparently was that it would lead to bribery and corruption ;by the ' Government in power. Mr. Massey said be (Mr. j Millar) had : advocated the representation [of minorities. He contended that under this Bill the minorities would be represented as well as the majorities. Mr. Millar quoted Mr. Massey's speech on the Absolute Majority; Bill, in which he (Mr. Massey) * said he was anxious for some system under which members should be returned by the majority of electors. : Mr. James Allen said, obviously the Hon. J. A. Millar's heart was not with the BUI. Every member of the House at heart was aware that the minorities should be represented. The Government ought to have reorganised the whole electoral system to give every person in New Zealand representation.. Mr. Allen quoted a White Book report,; presented to the English Parliament, showing"thai-the second ballot was a failure in countries in Central Europe, where it had been • tried. Dr. Chappie said the only advantage of the Bill was that it prevented a third candidate slipping in between two others. Mr. Lang said there were many objections to the measure. : Candidates were likely to poll fewer votes'at the second billot than they did at the first. Mr. Herries opposed the measure on .general .grounds.'.;- . The Prime Minister, in reply, said some extraordinary criticisms had been levelled against 'the'Bill.; Mr. J. Allen said the majority on the roll should determine the poh That was the most remarkable propofa! he had ever heard. As for the suggestion that the Government had introduced the Bill for political advantage, all he could say was that the position of the Government in the country to-day. was stronger than it ever was before. ' Mr. Massey: No. Sir Joseph Ward: Yon wait till the numbers go up. The absolute majority system had been condemned by : both Houses in Queensland, after 17 years' experience. It was recognised that the present system was inadequate and unsatisfactory. "Naturally er-ough, differences of opinion existed regarding the remedy. On a division the second reading was carried by 43 votes, to 15. The following is the division list:— -'.'..-""':■ ° Ayes (43): Messrs. E. G. Allen, Arnold Barber. Barclay, Buddo, Carro!!, Colvin Davcv. Dillon. Ell. Field, Fisher, Fowlds/ A. L. D. Fraser, Gray, Hall, Hanan. Heke, Hosan. Hogg. Hornsby. Izard, Kidd. Lawrv; McGowan; R. McKeisrie, Mel pherson, Major. Miliar. Xgata, Parata, ■ Poland, Poole, Rom. SeddMi, Sidey. 'Stallworth v, Steward, Thomson, Ward Wittv W00d:.,; :. :. ■•'- Noes (15!: 'Messrs., J. Allen, Chappie. Graham, Hardy, Hemes, Lang, Lethbridge, Lewis, Malcolm, Mander, Massev, Okevj Reid, Rhodes, and Tanner. " " *