THE LICENSING BILL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLI, Issue 12663, 17 September 1904, Page 6

THE LICENSING BILL.

»rPIE DEBATE IN COMMITTEE. STATE CONTROL REJECTED. j A LATE SITTING. "•' SOME VIGOROUS PROTESTS. [BY TELEGItATtI.— SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT.] Wellington," Friday. The House of Representatives sat till half-past four this morning discussing the Licensing Bill. When the telegraph office closed members were mildly stonewalling clause 11 as a protest against rushing miconsidered amendments through at the bidding of the conference held with the Premier earlier in the evening. The Premier had himself given the House over an hour's needless talk to allow the conference to meet and put its proposed amendments into shape, and when the amendment to clause 11 came along, the Premier was visibly angry that members would not swallow it at once. A motion to report progress had been defeated. Mr. Herdman moved, "That the chairman leave the chair," which was thrown out on the voices, and then Mr. Kirkbride moved to report progress. The chairman ruled that a motion "to report progress was not in order, as no business had intervened since the last motion.

Mr. Jas. Allen said it had been ruled hundreds of times that the disposal of a motion, "That the chairman do leave the chair," was business. Mr. Massey moved, "That the Speaker foe consulted od the chairman's ruling." This was rejected by 41 votes to 32. The Chairman explained that ii: a member had even spoken to the main question between the two motions he would have considered that business. LATE HOURS. The Premier then appealed to members to let the Bill through. He said he did not want to impair his health by going through what he went through last session to get the business done. Mr. Alison: You bring it on yourself. The Premier: I don't know why some Members dictate to this House. -Mr. Alison: We must dictate to you. The Premier: In that case I sit here for j % week. It was now nearmg three o clock, ana Mr. Massey objected to being driven to do business at that hour of the morning. It was legislation by exhaustion. What happened test session was a disgrace to the Premier and to every member of the House. "Whatever happens," Mr. Massey concluded, "there will be no legislation by exhaustion this session if i can prevent it. I am willing to sit here till Christmas, but I am not going to allow business to be thrust through the House as it was last session. I was speaking plainly, but I am speaking courteously and kindly. If the Premier wants to fight, .now it the time to fight." The Premier sail* if the Leader of the Opposition and those with him said no business was to be,done after one o'clock, then it would be impossible to do any business at all Mr. Bedford said the Premier wasted a lot of time speaking on clause 9, when he knew it was to be dropped. The Premier said at the time he was speaking on clause 9 no conclusion was arrived at. Mr. Bedford: The.conclusion was arrived at by ten o'clock, and you spoke after ten. The Premier: I used the words "up to half-past nine," and if the member for Dunediu was a gentleman he would, say he was under a misapprehension. Mr.'Herdman: Surely the Premier of the colony is not entitled to say the member for Dunedha is no gentleman. The Chairman asked the Premier to withdraw.

The Premier was proceeding to explain : the position, but was met with cries of ! " Withdraw, withdraw." "I hare withdrawn," said the Premier," but I say that a gentleman, after what I said, would have admitted he was under J a misapprehension.' Mr. Bedford: Do you say I was wrong"' The Premier: I was speaking when the House adjourned at half-past nine, and I had to finish my remarks. I am sorry to come to the conclusion that there is a determination amongst some members that we are not to have a Licensing Bill this session. Wo shall have some late nights before we got to the end of the session. Mr. Alison: The members of this House are not to be driven by the Premier, nor work here like slaves at the Premier's call. I warn him that if he adopts the same tactics as he adopted last year he will create opposition in this House and obstruction of business which will be very prejudicial to himself and to the carrying on of the business of the country Why does he not show a little tact? It is ten minutes to three, and I move that we now report progress. A division was taken or., this motion, which was lost by 45 votes to 28. The Premier then stated that he would postpone clauses 12 and 13. If the House went through the clauses bearing on disputed polls he would let the State control proposals go on the voices and then report progress. CLAUSE 11 AS AMENDED. The House agreed to this suggestion, and settled down to work. Some amendments were made in clause 11, which was eventually put to the vote as amended. Mr. Massey willed' for a division on it, •but the clause was adopted by 52 votes to 21. The Premier had, however, promised that the Bill would be recommitted for consideration of this clause after 'members have seen it in print and fully considered it. As passed this morning the clause reads as follows: — "From and after the, date when no-license' comes into force in any district, and so long as no-license continues it* force therein, the following provisions shall apply throughout thai district :—-It shall not. be lawful for any person to .solicit any order for liquor. It shall not be lawful for any person to receive any order for, or supply, or deliver, or send any liquor, except as hereinafter provided. Particulars setting out the name, residence, and occupation of the person to whom liquor is supplied, and the kind, quantity, arid quality of the liquor delivered, or sent within the district, shall be forwarded to the Collector of Customs, appointed for the purpose by the Commissioner of Customs. Such liquor shall be supplied only in bottles or other receptacles, duly closed and sealed in such manner that the liquor cannot bo extracted without breaking the seal, and every such bottle or other receptacle shall have thereon a label setting forth the kind, quantity, and quality of the liquor contained therein. Every person who supplies, delivers, or sends any liquor, except as provided in this section, is liablr to a fine not exceeding £50, and not less than £25, or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for any term not exceeding three mouths, and not less than one month." The remainder of the clause, including the proposal to repeal section 33 of the Act of. 1895 was struck out. Clauses 12 and 13 were postponed. DISPUTED POLLS. The majority of the clauses with reference to appeals against the validity ox licensing polls were then dealt with. Some machinery amendments were mode in clauses 14 and 15*. The time .lor applying for a recount was extended from three days to seven, and. on the motion of Mr. Willord, an addition was made providing that when a petition for an inquiry info the taking of r. poll is not sustained b ' Court, the deposit or £20 is to be foi J to the Crown. In connection with the court of inquiry, Mr. Massey stated that he preferred two judges of the Supreme Court to, three magistrates, as provided in the Bill, and be proposed to move for the recommittal of the Bill, with the object of inserting a clause to that effect. Clauses' 16 up to 21 inclusive were passed with slight amendments. Clauses 22 and 23 were postponed.

STATE CONTROL. On the State control clause the Premier said he was prepared to let it go on. the voices. He did not want to jeopardise the Bill, but whilst -he could not get State control into this Bill he would like to get it into the Referendum Bill. The three clauses bearing on State control. 24, 25, and 26, were then struck out on the voices, and the House rose at twenty-five minutes past four THE KING COUNTRY.. Consideration of the Bill' was resumed when the House met to-day, the whole of the afternoon being devoted to a somewhat dreary discussion on the question of liquor or prohibition in the King Country. Clause 27 of the Bill contains special provisions respecting the King Country. Mr. Jennings moved to strike out the whole ■of these provisions, and insert instead a clause providing for a local option poll in the King Country undei the same i conditions as in other parts of.the colony, a three-fifths majority having to be secured in the first instance before licenses are granted, and the number of licenses to be granted not to exceed one to every thousand of population. Mr. James Allen, contended that Mr. Jennings was really submitting a new clause,"which ought to be printed before the Houso considered it. The Chairman ruled. that. Mr. Jennings proposal was a new clause. Mr. A. L. D. Fraser supported Mr. Jennings' proposal. Mr. "Heke also supported it. H> said times had changed, and the House ought to keep up with the times He suggested that the first experiment of State control should be in the Rohe Potae . Mr. Lang contended that the. people in the King Country should have a voice in saying whether they were to have licenses or not. Mr. Lawry contended that the Maoris should have'tho right to say whether the compact they entered into many years ago, by which liquor was excluded from the district, should be altered or con-

firmed. Mr. Moss said the sly grog-selling in the King Country had been very much exaggerated, and he- believed the way in which the law was now being administered was making the game of sly grog-selling not worth the candle, and would bring it down within a reasonable time, Mr. Fowlds said there were several places in the Auckland province with Maoris living in the neighbourhood wnere the' conditions were a good deal worse than the King Country. Mr. Lawry: I never saw it. Mr. Fowlds: I have seen it lots of times, and not very far away from the city of Auckland. Surely the House would never agree to take a poll while a large proportion of the population was purely transitory. Thwe was no permanent settlement* the bulk of the white population being engaged on the railway and in sawmills. 'the Premier said if the Maoris were asked to-morrow they would object to licenses in the King Country. Mr. Baume: Because they have sly

grog-shops. The Premier said it would be different if the conditions in the King Country were settled, but at the present the population was largelv temporary. Mr. Hemes said if the co-operative workers had no right to vote on this question, by the same. argument they had no right to vote for a member of Parliament. He had been looking at the description oi the King Country in the Bill, and he thought the boundaries of the Eohe Potae had been extended. Mr. Taylor admitted that at present the white population might well consider themselves at a serious disadvantage. The problem, however, was a very difficult one to solve. Prohibition there was designed for the Maoris, who at first were almost the sole occupants of the country, but Europeans had since gradually found their way into that part of the country. They, however, knew of the prohibition that existed, and had willingly placed themselves under the disability. In regard to the necessity for protecting the Maoris, he. said he himself had witnessed scenes of Maori drunkenness in Hawera and other j townships in the Tayanaki district. I Mr. Jennings: Have you seen them? Mr. Taylor: Yes, I have seen them. I have seen. a dozen Maoris under the influence of liquor at Hawera. Some of them exceedingly drunk. Mr. A. L. D. Eraser: That was when they came in to collect their six months' rents. Mr. Taylor: I know that they were cashing their cheques, probably at the publichouses,, and everybody . was out after those cheques. In another town in the same district I also saw the Maoris drunk, just the same as I have seen our own people drunk. Mr. Taylor added that the reports of sly grog-selling in the King Country were being magnified. ~ Mr. Seddon produced a map on which the Survey Department had marked the boundaries of the Rohe Patau, district. These, he said, were defined in the Act of 1904. The King Country clause was still under discussion when the House adjourned at halfpast fivo p.m. The Hon. J. Carroll, when the House resumed at half-past seven, said the boundaries of the King Country described in the Bill were the same as was proclaimed a nolicense district in 1894, including the RohePotas proper, and what was the Upper Wanganui licensing district. He was sure the natives in the latter district did not want licensee. He disputed the statement that there were more Europeans than Maoris in the King Country Mr. Kaihau protested against the inhaoitants of the King Country not having a vote

on the liquor question. Mr. Jennings said his amendment would simply give-the decent white people in the King Country an opportunity to decide whether there should be license's or not. The condition of things at present amounted to persecution. A newly-married couple arrived at their home in the King Country, and a constable searched the house for liquor, going so iai as to turn over the bride's wedding garments. Mr. Taylor: The official ought to be discharged at once. • Mr. Jennings : I understand he is acting under directions from Mr. Northcroft, S.M , The Premier moved an amendment on the ■ clause bringing the King Country under the provisions of the Licensing Act of 1881 Under this Act the Governor has power, on the application of the owners, to proclaim any block of native land .a no-license area, and the amendment was to provide that, in the event of such proclamation, then the provisions of the present Bill prohibiting the importation of liquor should apply to such district as well as to the King Country. Mr. Herries protested against this, on the principle that two wrongs did-not make a right. . Mr. Baume said the objection urged against Mr. Jennings' amendment was that a solemn contract had been entered into with the Maori chiefs, but the Government also promised sacredly that there should be no land sales in the King Country. It was not an Act of Parliament, simply a- promise of a Premier, and that promise had never been carried out in its essentials, namely, the exclusive possession and enjoyment of the land by the Maoris to the eternal exclusion of Europeans as settlers. That being the case, the circumstances had entirely changed, and he thought the right thing to do was to adopt the proposal of Mr. Jennings. The discussion was continued at great length, and alter ten o'clock members who ventured to speak on the subject got a rather warm reception. Mr. Jennings' proposal could not be put, the chairman having ruled that it was a new clause, which could be only submitted after the whole of the clauses in the Bill had been dealt with. The amendment suggested by the Premier was inserted in the clause on the voices, the following amendment, also moved by the Premier, being incorporated; —"' In any prosecution for tne sale ol liquor in breach of this section It shall no be necessary in proving the sale to show that J any money ot n.nicy's worth passed, or i that any -other consideration for the sale ! existed, if the Court is satisfied that ? ! transaction in .he nature of a sale actually j took place. In any prosecution for exposing or keeping liquor for sale in breach of this section, it shall lie on the accused to show that the liquor proved to be exposed or kept was not so exposed or kept for sale." Mr. Taylor asked why it was not proposed to apply the provisions ot clause 11 with respect to the record kepi by the

Collector of Customs to th« King Country as well as to other no-license districts.

The Premier said there was nothing to prevent the House saying that this should also apply to the Robe Potae. Mr. Massey said clause 11 had not been finrlly passed yet. Did any membei of the House wish that such a clause should apply to the King Country? Mr. Taylor: No, nor to any other place. Mr. Lang pointed out that in consequence of a recent interpretation of whet was a Maori kainga, a European passing through Government townships such as IV Kuiti was liable to be fined under the Maori Councils Act for having a bottle of liquor in his pocket. He moved an amendment to the clause under consideration, to the effect that the provisions of the Maori Councils Act relating to bringing liquor into Maori kaiugas shall not apply to Europeans and hall-castes in the King Country. The Premiei refused to accept the amendment. Mr. Hemes said if they were going to have total prohibition, let them have it right out, but not get it like a side-wind, as was now proposed. He trusted tne magistrate's decision would go before the next Court of Appeal. Mr. Lang's amendment was rejected on the voices, and clause 27, as amended by the Premier, was then passed as a whole.

COOK ISLANDS. The-committee proceeded to consider the special provisions respecting the Cook and other islands. ' . Mr. Massey merred to an ordinance in force in the 'Cook Islands enabling liquor to be sold in a Government boardinghouse. If this were permitted it would simply mean the establishment of a Government grog shop. , , , Mr. Seddon said his attention had been drawn to- this clause In the ordinance, and he had advised the Governor to cancel it. Mr. Taylor said he would move, "That all the clauses regarding the islands, except clause 28, be struck out." He said that with very slight amendment clause i.3 could be made to cover, the whole ground, and put the islands in the same position as the Rohe Potae and the no-license districts in New ; Zealand. Clause 28 was agreed to on the voices. Clause 29 was next considered. Mr. Tavlor objected to the liquor now in the islands being taken possession of by the. Government. The committee divided, and the clause was passed by 44 to 22. Clause 30. forbidding the importation of liquor into the Cook Islands except under certain restrictions, was agreed to. Clause 31 was then considered. Mr. Fowlds did not object to white residents at Rarotonga getting liquor, but he thought that in deference to the wishes of the natives at Niue an exception should be made there, amd no liquor allowed into the island Mr. Seddon, in answer to Mr. J as. Allen, said he proposed to strike out the word "household" in the clause, so that liquor could be sold by the Customs only for use in the arts or manufactures, or for medicinal and scientific purposes. The; word •'household" was struck out, and the clause as amended was passed.. Clauses 32 and 33 were passed with slight amendments. On the motion of Mr. James Allen, kava, was added to the native liquors the manufacture of which is to be prohibited. The remaining clauses relating to the Cook Islands were passed without material amendment. At ten minutes to one Mr. McLachlan moved to report progress, which was lost by 37 to 26. [Left Sitting.]

PROPOSED AMENDMENTS. I Mr. McNab has given notice of a new ' clause in the Licensing Rill to provide that the holder of a license for a brewery in a nolicense district shall not sell liquor for delivery to any person residing in the nolicense district. Mr. Vile has a new clause to provide that no wholesale license shall be granted or renewed in a borough or town district in which there is no licensed hotel. Mr. McNab proposes an addition to clause 15 of the Bill to the effect that the Court investigating complaints regarding irregularity of polls may receive evidence to prove that the proposal other than that declared to be carried was carried, and not rejected. Mr. Major has given notice of a new clause providing that when a license lapses a new license may be granted to a hotel in any part of the same district. CUSTOMS OFFICERS AND THE . LIQUOR TRAFFIC. In spite of the efforts of the conference of prohibitionists and supporters of the trade, and some hours' discussion in the House, clause 11 of the Licensing Bill is still in a somewhat chaotic condition. It appears that the prohibition representatives at tlio conference strongly urged the Premier to let clause 11 go along with clauses 9 arid 10, but Mr. Seddon thought the clause, or some modification of it, vital to the Bill, and an attempt was made to alter it to suit the altered state of the Bill, after the rejection of clauses 9 and 10. There is no doubt (bat the. clause will have to bo further revised, but whether the House will bfl able, after the agreement at the conference, to altogether erase the Collector of Customs, and what has been spoken of as his "black list," is somewhat doubtful.