THE WAR COMMISSION.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XL, Issue 12401, 24 October 1903, Page 5 (Supplement)

THE WAR COMMISSION.

. HIGH PRAISE OF NEW ZEAL ANDERS. \ .' "NOT A SINGLE COMPLAINT." EVIDENCE OF LIEUT. -COL. POLE- "' PENTON AND SIR A. DOUGLAS. :• ~ -■--" [FROM OUR OWX correspondent.] London, September 11. So voluminous was tho evidence adduced before the War Commission, that although lengthy extracts have been given day by day in the press., the publication of these extracts still continues. As I stated last week, in consequence of the great demand for copies, the first edition was out of print before it had been in the publishers' hands many hours, but another edition has just been issued, and so I am able to send you a few extracts which will no doubt be of special interest to New Zealand readers. High praise of the New Zealand contingents is bestowed by many of the. numerous witnesses who were called to give evidence, and so the complimentary references are scat- •;'"' tered throughout the Blue Books in rather a bewildering fashion, and they are not easy to find when time is limited, and the hour for closing the mail is near at hand. However, I give lengthy extracts from' the evidence of Lieutenant-Colonel Pole-Penton and of Sir Arthur Douglas, as well as some references made to the New Zealanders by various officers who were in authority in South Africa.

COLONEL POLE-PENTON. Lieutenant-Colonel A. Pole-Penton, R.A., was examined at length, and, in the course of his evidence, spoke with regard to the New Zealand contingents, and said he was Commandant of the Forces in New Zealand from October. 1896, to October, 1901, and during that time seven different contingents were sent from New Zealand. He gave copious details, mentioning the receipt- of the telegram accepting New Zealand's offer of men, how the latter were equipped, how they were selected from each of the five military districts, their limits as to age, height," and weight, why gray horses were not chosen, and then proceeded to make a long statement, in the course of which he said: "We collected a certain number of men from each district in the colony, and we had to get horses from where we could. We first of "all told the men that they could bring their own horses, subject to passing a veterinary examination, and if they passed we would buy them, and I think we fixed the maximum price at £25. Many of the horses would not pass, and we were rather hard pressed to get horses. Then a good number of private gentleman and ladies came forward and made presents of horses, and I bought every horse 1 could. The Agricultural Department helped us, and we manaired to get the number of horses we wanted. We had great difficulty about the uniforms, because we had no store of khaki in the colony at all. but it happened that some of the corps had got private supplies of khaki out to make uniforms for their corps, and they very kindly came forward and gave us a supply of khaki. Then in Hie store I found some old belts and braces that had been out many years, and we got those out and made them into belts and braces to hold up the pouches for the ammunition. We borrowed saddlery, Avater-bottles, waterproof sheets, and haversacks and everything wc could from the corps that had got them ; we took as many greatcoats as we could get from the permanent force arid we managed to get them properly equipped. The order was given me to equip these men on October 4, and they sailed on the 21st with full equipment. The, contingent consisted of one major, two captains, six subalterns, and 203 non-commissioned officers and men, with 250 horses and a medical officer and a veterinary officer in charge. This contingent I had entirely under my own control as to getting it together and sending it off, because the House of Representatives passed a vote that after equipment and getting I together by the commandant, the Govern- j ment were* authorised to send the men and ; horses to South Africa. On December 21 I got orders to prepare another contingent on the same lines as the first. At that time the House was not sitting, and the appointment of officers was made by the Defence Minister. We had had an offer from the Elswick firm to let us have four Hotchkiss machine guns, provided we would send men and horses to take charge of these guns in Africa, and, accordingly, with the second contingent, in addition to two companies of. Mounted Rifles, we had a machine gun detachment of one officer, and 33 non-com-missioned officers and men. We had a good deal of difficulty in' equipping these men, owing to the want of equipment and clothing, but we got them off on January 20 and we put on board over 300 horses." Full details regarding other contingents followed.

MEN AND OFFICERS. The Chairman asked Colonel Pole-Penton if the New Zealanders were good men. "Excellent men," was the reply. In all contingents?—ln all the contingents. What about the officers?— There was a great difficulty about officers; for the first contingent they were all right, because I chose the smartest officers I could get to come forward. After that, all the officers' names who volunteered had to be submitted to the Defence Minister, and he made his choice, and I am afraid it did not always agree with mine. And, of course, you had none, or very few officeis who hud served in the regular army?— For the first contingent 1 got leave for my own staff officer to go. He was a "captain of Royal Artillery and he went in command of one of the companies. For the second contingent there was am officer in New Zealand who had served in the Ira-

periai cavalry, and lie volunteered to take the command of a contingent, and it was > given to him. As to the third contingent my predecessor out there, who was also a Royal artilleryman, wanted very badly to go in command, but he was not taken, and they put a local officer in. An ex-Imperial officer went with the sixth contingent. There were two captains from the Indian Staff Corps on leave in New Zealand, and i I got them included in two contingents,, but all the others were officers. Had they any training at all, except the same training as the men? No. There was no school for instruction before the war?— none at all. Had you any reports as to how those officers got on —Some of them did extremely well; the first contingent was the first purely colonial contingent that arrived in Africa, and it was sent straight up to De Aar, and went all through the fighting up there, and did uncommonly well under their commanding officer, who was mentioned . several times, and who got a C.B. at the end of the war. I think most of the commanding officers of the first four contingents got rewarded. The fifth contingent was started on different lines altogether. ( All the latter contingents were very good men?—Ytesj the sixth contingent was, physically, quite as good as the first. And the seventh? (asked Sir George Taub-man-Goldie).The seventh were very good, too. t The Chairman: And you have good reports of them? Excellent reports; I was over in Australia at the inauguration of the Commonwealth, and I met some Australian officers who told me that my men had done better than any colonials out in Africa.

AS IMPERIAL RESERVE. When asked by the chairman if there was any other point he would like to mention, Colonel Pole-Peuton replied : " General French was talking about ton Imperial reserve this morning. When General French was considering the matter originally the Premier and Defence Minister, Mr. Seddon, of New Zealand, was also considering the matter, and he issued a memorandum, saying that he thought an Imperial reserve should he maintained in each colony. When we were amending the New Zealand Defence Act, we made provision in it for an Imperial reserve to be raised for service outside the colony." On what conditions?—" Well, the conditions were not quite gone into when I left; they were waiting until the war was over. The idea was, I think, that the men should 'get a retaining fee <*f £5, and that out-

of a force of 20,000 we should have 7000 or 8000 included in the force of an. Imperial reserve; that these 7000 or 8000 should get a month's training every year, instead of the week's traninig the ordinary volunteer gets, and that during the month they were training they should be paid at volunteer rates, so that they would not lose anything." Sir Frederick Darley asked: Who was to make those payments? and Colonel PolePcnton answered : That also was rather indefinite; but there was some agreement to be come to with the Imperial Government as to what burden the colony was to bear, and what burden the Imperial Government were to bear.

The Chairman: Do you think you could get good men on those sort of terms was very doubtful abouo it; I think there are a good many difficulties. In the first place when the force has been raised the consent of the New Zealand Parliament has to bo got when it is to be: sent out of the country. In the case of a big war I think the colony would be very loth to let all its best trained men go away, because you cannot make any man think the place he lives in is'not the most important part of the earth. , Do you think the men themselves would have come forward'.'—l am perfectly certain, in existing circumstances, you could get 7000 or 8000 men for service voluntarily. In ordinary times what do you' say?l would not say in ordinary times, but if a war were on—if the Mother Country were in any danger or difficulty— think the feeling out there is such that you would get any such number. It would not be much use as a reserve, unless you establish it before a war began?— You would so establish it, but my own doubt was whether the New Zealand Parliament would .allow those men to go after you had got them. I was asking whether the men themselves would come forward if all these difficulties Mere got over, on the terms?l think that is rather doubtful, too, because a labouring man in New Zealand can make 8s a day, and the Government would not pay him anything like 8s a day to come out for a month, and there are very few idle men and very few who can afford to give up 8s a day for a month and come and take os or 4s. PREPAREDNESS FOR WAR.

Is there anything —There is the question of preparedness — the colonies being prepared for war—and I think there is a very great danger in the colonies not keeping up reserve supplies. Certainly in the colony I was in there was no reserve supply of stores at all, and, as I stated, when the contingents were going away, we had to do all we could, trusting to private enterprise to get things made in a hurry, and, of course, we had to send men away with equipment which was not quite as it should be. This applies more particularly to ammunition. The supply of heavy "gun ammunition is a very expensive item, and the colonies do not lilke to lock up a lot of money in ammunition, which may become obsolete at any time. For instance, the change from powdsr to cordite, you could fire away 200 rounds of powder* that you had in store for each of your guns, and that 200 rounds per gun would become obsolete. This reserve of ammunition in wartime is a very important question indeed, because you can get no heavy gun ammunition anywhere neater than England, and I think one way the Imperial . Government might help the colonies would be to supply them with the gun ammunition at the cost price, and also certain necessary equipments, and only charge them the interest on the capital value of th'S ammunition and stores supplied. That is the only way I can see that you can get an adequate reserve of stores for the colonics, because they cannot afford to lock up a large sum of money. The people of the colony of New Zealand look on the Defence Veto with great suspicion, and it is not a popular vote by any means.

That would mean an Imperial reserve of ammunition?— would mean that the ammunition was supplied by the Imperial authorities, and that the colonial authorities paid a percentage on its cost. Sir George Taubman-Goldie: Would they go on paying accumulated interest on every fresh supply?— Suppose the equipment of a gun was a hundred rounds, the Imperial Government would supply them with that, and charge them interest on it, but the ammunition expended for practice every year from that gu;i would be kept up by the colony. It is only the reserve I am talking' about. When that becomes obsolete and fresh reserves come out, would you be charged interest on the old supply?— I think that would have to be wiped off, as in the case of our own obsolete stores. Sir Frederick Darley : Are you speaking of guns of position or field-guns?—Field-guns would come i:a the same class, except that their ammunition is not so expensive. Sir George Taubman-Goldie : The interest would be a very, small amount?— Yes, but still looking at it from the point of view of a. commandant that is the only wav I see of getting the colony efficientlv equipped. Sir John Edge: If that system were adopted, it would be to the interest of the colony to use up as much ammunition as they could, and as quicklv?— because 10 would not interfere with the practice ammunition. Th;re should always be a certain number of rounds for every /nin available in time of war. ' r '

But if their liability for the interest was to cease with the expenditure of .the ammunition it would be to their interest to use tip the ammunition as fast as they could, and to use as much for practice also?— No', because they would have to pay for what they used for practice. It would be like a sum of money on fixed deposit— you have so many rounds a gun on fixed deposit for Which you have to pay so much interest. And -when they drew a round they would have to pay for Thev would have to replace it at their own expense. As to smallarm ammunition they have an ammunition factory in the colony, and they pub together all their ammunition, but all the component parts, the cordite, the bullets, the cases and caps and everything of that description, they have to get from England. Then there is the question of the officers. I quite agree with what General French said, that '"the colonial officer needs a great deal more education, and if the Imperial Government could see their way and help to educate him it would be c- very excellent thing. At present, in my own colony, the senior officers can get very little military education at all ; they only come out for the short time during the training. The: corps very rarely get brigaded together, and the senior officers get very little chance of learning their duties. In reply to a question put by Sir Henry JSorman, Colonel Pole-Penton said: I found that all my men were strongly of opinion that a year was the maximun time that you should keep a volunteer in the field ; after a year they begin.to be unsettled, and to think that their home business is going to the bad, or, if appointments have been kept open for them they think they will probably be filled up at the end of a year.

THE COLONIALS AT THE WAR, Are you aware whether any reports came from the General Officer Commanding in South Africa, as to the behaviour of the colonial contingents which were out there? During the war!'

\es— we bad very flattering reports all round. During the time 1 was out there was not a single complaint from any general officer of the way our men behaved. So that the colony was kept informed of the good conduct of its troops?— did not get reports from the general officers, but I got reports from the officers commanding the troops in the field. We got a report from Geueral Hutton once, but I cannot remember any others. There was no system of informing the colonics how their men were behaving? No. Do you not think that would have been a good thing?—A very good thing. The colony should know that its contingent had done good service in such and such an action, instead of being left to gather this information from despatches which very often are not published for many months afterwards. NEW ZEALAND DEFENCES.

Sir Frederick Darley: Have you anv fortified positions in New Zealand?— Yes'; we have four fortified Auckland, Wellington, Lyttolton. and Dunedin (Otago). Is the number of men you speak of sufficient in case of emergency?— do not think so at all. When I first went out there I asked for a large increase in the permanent force, but they would not give it to me. Do you separate the men—these 350—into four parts'/—Yes. And send one part to each place?— Yes; we send detachments to each place. So that the whole of the 350 are never . trained together?— Never. At Wellington 11 have had 100 of them.

There is a long distance from Auckland to Dunedin? —Yes; but of course I could change the men about now and again. s Sir Henry Norman: In your defence system it was always intended, as it is in Queensland, that the partially-paid force or the volunteers should reinforce those men of the-permanent force? —Yes. Every man in New Zealand is liable to service, and can be called up at any time. Sir Frederick Darley: Are there any of these partially-paid men, volunteers, trained toartillery ?—Oh, yes; and very well trained, too. So that they can be called upon to sustain the others V—They all form a part of the artillery force for these places, just the same as in England.

TRAINING OF OFFICERS. Sir John Hopkins : All. the troops you sent from New Zealand were mounted men?— Yes. Did you find any difficulty in officering them?—; the officers were rather scarce.

Is there any solution for this training of officers in ordinary peace time for these sort of contingents ?— do not think there is. If you start from the beginning of the New Zealand officer he is elected by his men. The commandant or the Minister has no voice in saying "We will take this man for an officer," so that you get a certain proportion of officers .who are absolutely unfit for the position. And there is no way out of that, because it is part of the system? —lt is part of the system.

SIR ARTHUR DOUGLAS. On December 3, 1902, Sir Arthur Percy Douglas, Bait., was examined, and said that he was Under-Secretary for Defence Id New Zealand. The contingents, he said, were raised in the first instance by calling for volunteers for service, and a large number of these men, of course, were volunteers in the colony at the time. The equipment of them was a thing that had never been attempted in New Zealand; w» had never attempted anything of the sort before, and we did not keep large stores — fact, we practically had no stores of special things. The clothing, for instance— that wo had to purchase by contract throughout the colony. The Chairman: Yes, Colonel Peuton told us that the first three contingents and the majority of the fourth contingent were equipped by private efforts? Oh, no, that is not so.

Will you say, then, how they were equipped? The first two contingents were equipped entirely at the cost of the New Zealand Government in every detail. The first four contingents were equipped by the colony, and the first two entirely by the Government.

Would you say, then, exactly what part the Government, for which you were partly responsible, took in the matter?—We provided everything in regard to the equipment and clothing for the whole of tha contingents ; I may say from the first contingent up to the tenth. lam not now talking of at what particular cost it was done, but I mean to say that our Department called for tenders and supplied everything. And you had the management of it? Yes; I was solely responsible for the work under the Minister. We called for tenders generally right throughout the country for everything. And you were able to get them in the country?— got everything in the country except toward the end, when we asked the Imperial Government to supply certain military stores which we either had not gob or which we could not supply from our own stores without denuding our own local forces.

RESERVE STORES. What sort of reserves do you keep in the colony?— it is rather'difficult to say that, because at one time, so far as accoutrements and all that sort of thing are concerned, we used to keep a considerable reserve; but since 1U99 our volunteer forces, which are practically the forces of the country, with the exception of a few permanent men, have been raised from somewhere about 5000 to, including rifle clubs, now upwards of 20,000, and the difficulty in obtaining the stores lias been very great, of course, during the pressure, of the wax, and we have of late kept a reserve. We have got a considerable number of rifles in reserve at the present time, somewhere about 5000 magazine rifles, but we never provide clothing for any forces. The volunteers get a certain capitation, and they provide everything of that nature themselves.

THE VOLUNTEER FORCE. You say, as Colonel Penton states also, that a good many of the men were members of the volunteer force?— a large number, especially in the earlier contingents, because the men were all very anxious to go, and the selection was confined, so far as it could possibly be done, by the Minister's instructions, to volunteer corps. After that our number began to get rather large, and it was somewhat of a difficulty to carry that order out. And a great many, of course, were enlisted because they were bushmen and stockmen, and that class of men.

Of what class of men are the ordinary volunteers? They are all sorts. Are they intelligent men?— very; I think, as a rule, they are very intelligent. Did they volunteer as freely from the country as from the town corps?— Quite as freely; in fact, the difficulty was to keep a number of men back.

You got them from both?— Yes; everybody wanted to go, I think. Was it the service or the rate of pay that attracted them, do you suppose?—l do not think it was exactly the rate of pay. I think it was the service. I think that the idea of doing something for the Old Country animated a very large number of men with a desire to go; and, besides that, there is perhaps also the spirit of adventure which has done so much for all the nation.

After mentioning the rate of pay obtained by labourers in the New Zealand Defence Stores as 8s per day the, Chairman asked Sir Arthur Douglas: Then it could not have been the rate of pay that specially attracted them?—No, I do not think so. I think it was the desire to go over. And that desire, you think, would obtain in any case of emergency?l think so. There is a strong feeling in the colony? Yes, I think there is a very strong feeling indeed. Of course, naturally everybody was very much excited about the Empire's troubles at the time, and the men were only too anxious to go.

THE OFFICERS. What do you say about; the officers?— I think they were animated by the same desire as the men. Any training that you can give to officers in. the volunteer force in New Zealand would be very insufficient for the actual work of warfare, would it not?— That is rather difficult to say. I should say it would be so to a certain extent, but all the exercises they do, that the military authorities now and for some time past have been given, as stated by the various commanding officers, is in the way of giving them mounted infantry work in rough country, and that sort of thing; teaching men to take advantage of all those things which are desirable of that nature, and to be able to act and to show their capabilities of acting when they arc thrown on their own resources to a great extent; but we had no great training school. There is a school now which lias been instituted ; I think it has been in existence about one year. But we have had a good deal of evidence, even with regard to our own Yeomanry force, say, in this country, that it is most desirable that a considerable proportion, at any rate of the senior officers, should be officers who have served in the regular army and had a regular army training; that, of course, you cannot have in New Zealand? — we cannot have that. They get a certain proportion of officers out, I will not say every year, but from time to time, as their engagements expire.

FUTURE CONTINGENTS. Sir Arthur Douglas then went at some length into details of the New Zealand service, and when asked by the Chairman, Is there any other point with regard to the contingents themselves that you would like to draw attention to from the point of view of the Government? he answered, " Of course, it is rather difficult, speaking generally, but if it could possibly be anticipated that necessity should arise, which I hope it will not, for having to send bodies of men out of the country again, we should have to make much larger preparations then »•« hive done in the past.

Clothing is a thing that we have nothing whatever to do with, and I do not know whether the colonial Parliament would accede to any large quantity of clothn**: or equipment being kept: but that would be a.''thing that is most desirable, of course, to have if it was only for that reason, if you understand, for sending men out of the country so as to ensure despatch. Our difficulty was that we had in this case to send men at such a tremendous pace, the pressure was so great and the work was so great, that it was a great difficulty, of course, to ensure absolute efficiency in every case. For instance, sending 1100 men' away in 14 days takes a lot of thinking out." We quite understand the strain upon you, and also appreciate the efforts which you made.—Still, what I mean is that if we could have had longer time it would have, enabled things (although I believe they were all efficient) to have been clone with greater ease. In order to do things to your satisfaction you ought either to have longer notice or else to have equipment' in reserve? Yes; but I am afraid keeping equipment in reserve for such an eventuality would not meet with approval in the Parliament. It would be easier to act on the spur of the moment, as you did before?l think so. Sir Frederick Darley: It means too much money?— they would not like to see several hundred thousand pounds standing in clothes or in stores when it might never be required.* Sir G. Taubman-Goldie: And there was no serious inconvenience in your nob having had it?No, just a little work, keeping going; that was all.

SATISFACTORY REPORTS. The Chairman: I suppose you officially had reports of your men that were sent out? Yes, there were reports. And satisfactory reports? Yes, I was only looking at one to-day, but I really forget the elate of it, in winch General Hutton was so highly praising the men lie had under him from New Zealand. Itwould have been easier for us in. some cases in regard to pay questions if we could have got a little more accurate information from South Africa at times. Sometimes men came back, and, of course, there was a question of paying them; and I had to take some responsibility to see how we could do that, because we had not always got, at all events, what we thought were sufficient, data. Men would come back with practically no accounts at all, who had to wait a long time, and that caused naturally a good deal of irritation. Men come back and they want their money. That was on© of the most difficult questions that we had, I think, in connection with the return.

THE PAYMENT OF THE MEN. That was from, deficiencies in the way of making up the accounts?— often used to get men sent back to us who brought nothing at all, absolutely nothing. Was that their own fault? That is a thing I could not tell you. I have not sufficient knowledge to say what the Imperial custom in those days was. 1 only know that I had to pay them when they came back.

Lord Esher: On the whole, what is the feeling of the men who went to the war?— In what way?

Did they come back satisfied with themselves and" the time they had had? Yes, I think so.

The account which they would give of South Africa would not produce any bad feeling in the colony from their experiences?No; I should think they would have every reason to be satisfied from what I have heard the men say. Of course they did not see the country "at the most pleasant time, and therefore the country itself, I daresay, was not quite,what they 'thought it might be, although I hear that a good many are going back". They got a good reception when they got back, I suppose?— Yes, always. After. answering numerous questions regarding the New Zealand forces. Sir Arthur Douglas was asked by Sir Henry Norman: And yon think after this recent experience of service that if there should be war in a few months the men would come readily forward to go abroad again?l think so. I suppose a great deal of the difficulty that has arisen in the accounts when the men came back would have been obviated if every man had a small book, as they used to have in the British army, and which, I believe, has now been introduced again, which contained all particulars of payments. and so on, so that if you saw that book you could at once see what was due to the man, or what you might advance? Yes. I should think so. Of course I never have been in anything connected with pay, at least to any extent, except our own men, or until I had to do with these contingents, and so I do not know what was the previous custom; but, as you say, I should think it would be a most excellent plan. Sir Frederick Darley: Did you find that a number of men who returned from South Africa volunteered to go out again?— A large number of them?— Yes, a great number of the men who came back with one contingent were very anxious to go away with the next if they could get permission, but we were very careful in the control of —that none of them had been down with enteric for a year previous; that was very closely watched. That shows that they were perfectly satisfied with the treatment there?— I think the men were very satisfied. Of course, there are always some grumblers who came back, and say* they do not think they got enough, or did not" get it quick enough.

FORGOTTEN DETAILS. Do you happen to know what the fortifications at Auckland, Wellington, Lyttelton, and Fort Chalmers have cost the

colony?— Upwards of half a million. I ought to know, but I have forgotten those details. They all came under me as UnderSecretary. I get all these things through me.

But you think in round numbers you can safely say half a million? Yes, quite. I am certain of that. I know the guns cost when they first came out a very large sum of money. OVERCROWDED SHIPS. None of your men came back in overcrowded ships. Yon had no complaints of that sort?— l should not think so, but. we had a Committee of Inquiry out there with regard to the Britannic and the Orient. In New Zealand? —

They went to Melbourne, I think?—No, the Britannic and the Orient came to Wellington. Did they not go first of all to Melbourne? —No, they went straight from Durban to Albany. I am not sure whether some did not call off Sydney, but they had nothing but New Zealand troops on board. Were they alleged to be overcrowded?— Yes, they said so. The men said so, and there was a Parliamentary inquiry—in fact, a Royal Commission, on the subject. What was the result of that? Were the ships exonerated? Yes, the ships were exonerated.

They were.found that they were not overcrowded?— They found that they were not .overcrowded. You see untrained men sometimes do not like all the litte things which have to be kept to make them do what is right. . However, there were no deaths from the alleged overcrowding?—No, not from that. We had a good many deaths, and I should not like, to express an opinion about it, but there was nothing that I saw in the documents that came through the Department to show that that was in any way due to overcrowding; in fact, I am sure it was not. It was pneumonia, and so on, that occurred after measles; and I believe I am right in saying also that a great many men came back who naturally, as soon as they arrived, did nob want to go to quarantine, and they thought if they could by some manner of "means, manage to hide that they had measles in an acute stage, they would be able to go home, and of course many of these men afterwards, from carelessness of that sort, did develop pneumonia.

RIFLE CLUBS. Sir John Edge: Are the rifle clubs well supported?l think they are going to be. Until last year the rifle clubs were not a portion of the defence forces of the colony at all. They were purely private institutions ; but by an amendment of the Defence Act which was passed in 1901, power was given to bring in the rifle clubs under a portion of the defence forces of the colony. You have .subsidised them, I suppose?— They do not give very much in that way. They get a grant of free ammunition, and they get carried free on the railways to parades, and all that sort of thing, and up to the present time they have to purchase their own arms, but we supply them at 25 per cent, less than cost price to us. So that you do encourage them as much as you can? Yes, and I have no doubt they will get better terms eventually.

NORTH AND SOUTH. In the course of further questions, Sir Arthur Douglas was asked whether the men who went to South Africa came generally from all parts of the two islands, and he replied : Yes, I should say that the proportion was about equal from both islands. We tried to keep it so, at any rate. It is the case, or it was so, I think, that one island might be called English more than the other. The settlers, at any rate, originally were colonists from England, while in the other they were chiefly from Scotland. Was it not so in a large sense? Those who went out to South Africa came really very generally from all parts?— From ■every corner of the colony—from Three. "King's down to the Bluff.

COST OF THE CONTINGENTS. The Chairman : Is there any other point? No. If there is any information that I can give to the Commission I shall be only too glad to do so. There is one thing. I do not know whether it would be of any interest, that up to the 31st January, 1902, on the part of the colony alone, Ave had spent £195,000 on the contingents. You mean the Government?— that the Government had; and that, giving pay to the men on their return to New Zealand, Ave had contingent liabilities of £27,000. Sir Frederick Darley : Over and above the £195,000? —Yes, and our liabilities for pensions Ave estimate at £3000 per ; that is, for pensions for men and officers, and so on, and families.

Sir Henry Norman: Which will be a decreasing charge? I suppose it will. People will die off. But that is what was calculated out from the number of men we were getting back, and the families of these people.

GENERAL FRENCH'S EVIDENCE. Major-General Sir George A. French, in the course of his evidence, was asked by the chairman whether he could give any information regarding the raising, equipment, and despatch of the contingents generally, and in his reply he said: "Practically none of the colonies had Ay stock of saddlery, I mean, of course, the regular, proper military saddle. I think a few hundred sets in New South Wales were about all the stock there was in the country. And I am satisfied that in New Zealand they were wanting military saddles, because they cabled over to us to know if we could spare any." Later on General French was asked whether he would say something about a scheme he had mentioned for providing a reserve in the colonies, and he replied: " It is a matter on which I feel rather strongly, because I was getting a scheme in working order, and had *-*u<;ut the "waiter Wore

the press, both in England and the colonies, and it was most favourably taken up by both and by the leading men in the colonies. I may say that two of the Premiers of the colonies have written to me most strongly in favour of that scheme, which was practically what Mr. Chamberlain put before the Premiers of the colonies when they came •here. But when I got half through my work my attention was called to the King's Regulations, forbidding officers to communicate with the press, and the whole thing was stopped. IHo not think that helped the defence of the Empire in any way. My scheme was roughly indicated there, that the Imperial Government should have reserves of trained men in the colonies from the local forces, which would cost them but a trifle any way, and would be available for the defence of the Empire when any serious occasion arose. I had particularly "in view, in regard to tho Australian colonies, the defence of India, because they are so near."

In the course of his very voluminous evidence, Lieut.-General Sir J. D. French, said: "1 am quite against using rifles or bayonets on horses, because I have tried it. I tried it at Colesberg with the New Zealanders. I was very anxious to make cavalry demonstrations round the flanks, and the New Zealanders had no swords. They had only their rifles and these bayonets and I manoeuvred them over and over again with these bayonets, and wo found that they were very"clumsy indeed." But it was represented to us, by one witness at any rate, that you might have a bayonet in the form of a sword bayonet, to be used for other purposes, but which, when put on the end of a rifle which riflemen have, would make something like a short spear. You would not agree with that witness?—l do not agree with him, because I have tried it practically, and the New Zealanders of -whom I am speaking, were very good horsemen, indeed. You think it is necessary that these men, if they are to be used for "scouting purposes as mounted rifles, as you define them, should have a weapon of offence? I think they should, certainly.

THE NEW ZEALANDERS SPLENDID.

At a later stage in his evidence, Sir J. D. French remarked: The New Zealanders to whom I referred just now were splendid. I mean those under Major Robins' command. They did some very good work indeed round Colesberg. Lord Strathcona : Had you any opportunity of knowing whether the over-sea colonials were serviceable as scouts? I had every opportunity of knowing that. 1 had a great many of them. Most of them were good' scouts.

THE COLONIAL TROOPS. When Lieut.-Colonel John Adye was asked whether he would say that the men from the oversea colonies were satisfactory both as to physique and intelligence as a whole, he replied : Yes, as a whole. I should say especially so. The forces that were raised in the oversea colonies, I understand, were chiefly picked men, and when we called, say, upon New Zealand, for 1000 men, something like 5000 volunteered, and we were, therefore, able to pick one man out of five. Of course lam only speaking now from hearsay, because I had nothing to do with that, being in South Africa; but I am certainly of opinion that the colonial forces that came from oversea had the appearance and did the work of picked men as a rule. Their discipline, as a whole, was very satisfactory. Of course, there were exception?, as there will be in every army.

At one stage in his MajorGeneral Kekewich expressed the" opinion that the "Imperial Yeomanry were, as a rule, bad at shooting. I think the colonials were better than they were." Lord Strathcona then inquired : Which colonials do you mean, the local colonials or those from oversea ? — "The oversea, I think, were very good," replied Major-General Kekewich. "In the early part of the war I saw a good deal of the '6th Imperial Bushmen and the 4th and sth New Zealand, and these were all good fighting men who knew their job well."

Lord Methuen said lie considered the shooting of the colonials from the Cape, Australia, New Zealand, and Tasmania-. " varied very much, but in some corps was decidedly good. Making good use of the ground came natural to them. Although the colonials from Australia, New Zealand, and Tasmania joined me later on in the campaign, it is as well to include them in my evidence." On the whole he was satisfied with the shooting of the colonials, and as to their marching, he said: "As soon as the weak men were weeded out, and the troops were in condition there was no question as to the men marching well. I cannot ever recollect the men not being ready to do more than I asked them to perform." When asked whether he considered it would be possible to get a recruit for the army with intelligence enough to see the necessity of taking cover, Lord Methuen expressed the, opinion that to a certain extent he would take up the idea, and he added: " But you would never expect him to have the cunning and shrewdness of the Dutchman, or of our colonials from New Zealand and Australia."

NEW ZEALAND'S SACRIFICES. A statement showing the sacrifices made by New Zealand in connection with the war was put in by Sir Arthur Douglas. This showed the net'cost to the colony to be £194,189. The amounts privately given for despatch of contingents and remounts was £26,122. The sum of £60,556 was privately subscribed for patriotic funds. The gross total was £307,454. Of this amount it was estimated that about £18,000 was sent to England to various funds for Empire use. Contingent liabilities were put at £27,000, and for pensions (indefinite period), £3000. The strength of the contingents in comparison with other parts of the Empire was also shown.