THE NATIVE MEETING AT ORAKEI.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXVI, Issue 9324, 29 March 1889, Page 6

THE NATIVE MEETING AT ORAKEI.

The proceedings of the native meeting at Orakei were resumed yesterday. The Hon. the Native Minister (Mr. Mitchelson) reached the ground about ten o'clock. He was accompanied by Sir F. Whitaker, Hon. Mr. Fergus (Minister of Defence), and Hon. Mr. Stevens. There were also present : Messrs. Kelly (M.H.R. for Tauranga), S. Locke, Major Jackson, Monsignor W. McDonald, Rev. Mr. Best, Rev. Mr. Gittos, Messrs. James Russell, J. A. Connell, Ho war til (solicitor from Wellington for Sydney Taivvhanga), Clendon, R.M., and many others. Sir Frederick Whitaker was accompanied by Miss Whitaker and Mrs. Stevens (wife of the Hon. Mr. Stevens). Ferry steamers during the day brought large numbers of visitors. Nothing was done till two p.m., when the natives assembled at the ea.ll of the bell in the tent provided for the meeting, Paul occupying the chair.

Paul, after sonic preliminary observations, said he would speak plainly. Some of the laws which had been passed fell hardly on the natives. When they found they were suffering thus, they, wanted to revert to the Treaty of Waitangi, which was made for both Maoris and Eurof>eans. Although they had been represented by Maori members for a number of years they had found no benefit for the natives come from it. Everything had been done in a one-sided manner for the benefit of the Europeans, but not for the natives. Formerly, before the making of the Treaty of Waitangi, the Maori chiefs had jwwer and mana over their own people, and this had remained during the first two or three Governorships. But that ended at the first meeting at Kohimarama. That was the first Maori Parliament to carry out what had been arranged by the Treaty of Waitangi. The Maoris did not then know that the Europeans were asking the Queen for power to manage native affairs, and in consequence of that the Europeans got representative institutions, and then they governed the Maoris. They then only allowed four Maoris to represent the Maori people. From that time the mana of the chiefs diminished, and the four Maori members became the mouthpiece of the Maoris, although at first only the great Maori chiefs were the representatives, and the smaller men had no say in the matter. It was different now, and that was the reason they now wanted to have a change. But the Government did not look kindly on tho Maoris, and give them what they desired. What he was trying to bring about was tho union of both peoples, and one scheme of government. The Maoris had waited a long time to see where the kindness of the Government came in, and now they were bringing forward some of these things to see if the Government would consent to have them done.

Major Kemp, after saying how much, he was gratified at seeing the Ministers and so many others present at Paul's invitation, said he wished to second all that Paul had said. He agreed that the two races should be as one, but they should go carefully. There were a lot of liabilities incurred by the Government, and they pressed on the lands of the Europeans, and on companies, and in many other directions, and therefore it was right that the Maoris should carefully consider matters, because they might be made to share these burdens. He then referred to the native land legislation last year, and said that with regard to these rates he would like to see them utterly done away with, so that they could live in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi. They had already expressed their opinion to Sir Frederick Whitaker on the dog tax. The Maoris wanted the administration of these questions left to themselves. They also wanted the Maoris to havo the management of the Native Land Courts. Referring to the Treaty of Waitangi, he said the Maoris knew nothing about treaties. That was an English word. The English had put that post up (the treaty). He did not want to pull it down. That, treaty said " Queen Victoria, out of her love and affection." Now the Maoris wanted the Government to follow these words, and to show their kindness to the natives. He noticed that some Waikato settler had been writing in the paper that day, and no doubt he wished his views to be entertained by the Euro[>eans. He said the Maoris were indolent and lazy. Well, if they were, the}' were just like their ancestors. He thought the Government should pay no attention to such talk. They might have thought that the Maoris were always going to be as the Irish used to be. But now the Irish were asserting themselves. (Laughter ) Perhaps after a time they would come to think that this dark-skinned race also knew something as well as the Europeans. (Laughter and applause. ) A copy of a document was then handed in, signed by a large number of leading chiefs and 42ti other Maoris. it was drawn up, on the 13th March, by a number of chiefs who had discussed the Treaty of Waitanngi. The gist, of it was that they wanted ail the people living in New Zealand to be united, and that the Maoris should bo allowed to administer their own affairs.

Mr. Mitcuelsox said he had first to apologise for not; being able to be present at the opening of the meeting. He way very pleased to see so many chiefs and natives from other parts of the colony there that day, especially Major Kemp, lie had also been much pleased to note the tone in which both Paul and Major Kemp had addressed the Europeans assembled there. The questions raised were, no doubt, very important, and deserved every consideration. He was sure the Government was quite agreed upon what Paul had said about the desirability of bringing about a union of both races, and lie quite admitted that in times past laws had been made which had not in all cases given satisfaction to the natives. When last year the Government decided upon introducing fresh legislation in reference to the native race, great care was taken to obtain the views of as many of the natives in various parts of the country as was possible in the time at the disposal of the Government, their great desire being to pass such laws as would be a benefit to both races. It had yet to be proved whether the laws lately passed pressed unduly on the native race. They had tried to frame the laws so as to press as lightly as possible on the natives, and to leave them free to deal in what manner they pleased with their own lands. Paul, Major Kemp, and other chiefs had gone to Wellington and protested against the laws being passed. All that they had to say was carefully listened to by the Government and received every consideration. At the same time the Government saw plainly enough that it was absolutely necessary that some new native land laws should be passed last session, and as the suggestions offered by the chiefs opposed to the Bills were not what the Government considered in the interest of the native race they refused to adopt them. He was quite sure, however, that if the laws now in force were not sufficient to do every justice to the natives, the Government were prepared to accept recommendations from the chiefs and from the meetings held throughout the colony ; the only desire of the Government being to do justice to the natives. He quite agreed with Paul, that there should be only one law for the Europeans and the Maoris. At the same time, before that could come to pass, it was absolutely necessary that the natives should bring their lands under the jurisdiction of the Land Courts, so that it might be known who were the real owners. So soon as the title to the native land was established, there would then be no necessity for the Native Land Court. There would be no necessity then to have other than one law for both races. There had been numerous complaints forwarded to the Government with reference to the manner in which the Native Land Court was conducted, and there was no doubt that it had been the cause of very greut friction from one end of the country to the other. At the same time it was necessary to have such a tribunal to decide the question of title. The Government/ivould be only too pleased if the natives would point out some special way in which the Government could frame an Act more pleasing to the minds of the native people. With reference to the question raised by Major Kemp, namely, the rating of native lands, it was quite true that the Crown and Native Land Rating Act was repealed, but he could not agree with Major Kemp when he said that the native lands should not be rated, because he must remember that it would be absolutely unfair to rate European lands and not native lands. If the native lands were not to be | rated how were they going to provide the

country with roads ? and in native districts roads were being made at the present time at a very large expense. Therefore it was only fair that the natives should contribute their quota as well as the Europeans, He had not been present at the Waitangi meeting two or three weeks ago, and therefore he did not hear the discussion on the dog tax. His colleague (Sir Fredk. Whitaker) had informed him of what took place. He also stated that the natives who spoke on the subject were very vexed, several chiefs in the district having been summoned before the Court for not having paid the tax. No promise was made to the natives on the matter further than that the question would be brought before the Government, and would receive careful consideration. His colleague (Sir Fredk. Whitaker) would now say a few words with reference to the Treaty of Waitangi and other matters.

Sir Fr.kdkk.iok Whitakek said that when he attended the meeting at the Bay of Islands, the questions were discussed there which were now before the present meeting. The principal question discussed was the dog (ax, and he felt himself, and had said that he thought there was a little hardship on the natives in the matter. He had told them it was impossible for him to make any promise on the subject. It was a law made by the Assembly, and they would have to alter it before any change could be made. But if they would consult the native mem bers, and get them to bring forward any reasonable proposition in the Assembly, he had no doubt that it would be fully and fairly considered, with every desire to meet the wishes of the natives. Although he had some sympathy with regard to the dog tax, he had none in regard to the rating of native lands for the purpose of keeping the roads in order. Nothing could be more reasonable than that the natives who used the roads should contribute to the making and kcoping them in repair. Thus was especially the case in the Bay of Island?, where the natives used tho roads far more than the Europeans. He then touched on the Treaty of Waitangi. A discussion took place on this subject at the Bay of Islands. He had then said, and he repeated now, that he quite agreed with what had been said by Paul and Major Kemp as to the union of the two races, and as to the treaty being binding not only on the natives but on the Europeans. But nothing had been said specifically as to what parts of the treaty had not been carried out. That question he had asked the natives often, then and now. He asked them to toll him exactly in what the treaty had been broken. Ho asked because he himself did not know. Now, as regards the native lands, the treaty of Waitangi guaranteed their lands to tho natives, and he knew of nothing to prevent the Maoris from dealing among one another with their lands as they pleased. If Paul should choose to give to Major Kemp all the land at Orakei there was nothing to prevent him doing so. Before the land went through the Court the natives could deal among themselves with the land as they pleased, so he did not see that that part of tho Treaty had been interfered with in anyway whatever. The Treaty enabled the Queen alone to acquire native lands. The natives had agreed that they would only dispose of their lands to the Queen. It was true that since that laws had been passed permitting the natives to sell their lands under certain circumstances. That had been a concession of the Queen to the natives. She had released them from the obligation to sell their land only to her. But if the Europeans desired to sell their lands to Europeans, then there were certain things which must be complied with. There were two things the Government must always insist on, namely, that before Crown grants were given to the natives for their lands, the Government must be satisfied that they were giving the grants to the right people. They had passed laws to ascertain this. The other indispensable point was that tho lands should be properly defined before giving a Crown grant, so that there could be no question about one man encroaching on another. In order to ascertain these two things the Native Land Court and the Survey Office had been established. The Government were not wedded to these modes of dealing with the land. They would be content to use any other equally effective mode. It was said, "let the Maoris arrange these things among themselves." They were welcome to do so if they wished. The Government only wanted to be satisfied that they gave the Crown grant to the right person, and that the land was properly defined. If the Maoris could show any convenient way by which this could he done the Government would consider it, and if reasonable they would adopt it. The Assembly would meet again in two or three months, and if the natives brought forward any reasonable proposition he was sure it would be listened to with attention, and if reasonable it would be granted. During last session the natives desired that certain proposed laws should stand over for a future occasion. But the Government objected, because they had found that it was always very much " taihoa" with the Maoris, while the Assembly liked not only to talk but to do something, As these Native Land laws had been talked over for years, they thought it quite time something was done. On that occasion he had the pleasure of listening to Paul and Major Kemp, but they had not convinccd him, because all their argument was " put it off." It was said by one of the members when the laws were being passed, that they would kill all the Maoris, but oil enquiry now he would like to know where the Maori was who had been killed by the.n. He would repeat that if the natives would consider any scheme which whs desirable, and bring it forward, the Government would give it he very best consideration. He had only to say that he reciprocated the feelings expressed by Paul and Major Kemp. He was always glad to attend meetings of this description, where they all met in good temper and humour, and discussed things fairly, thus leading to a better understanding". It was for this reason that he had spoken plainly, that the natives might fully understand the views of the Government on the subject. Major Kemp, in reply to the question as to what portion of the treaty had been interfered with, asked who sold the foreshore of the country to the Government. We had never sold the foreshore where the wharf now stood, and he considered that where the " pi pis" were belonged to the Maoris. They had never given up their rights to the foreshore. He had listened to what the Ministers had said, and it was all very nice. Sir F. Whitakhk said in reply, that if Major Kemp wanted old matters settled before coming to new ones, he would say that if the Maoris had parted with their lands, the Europeans had parted with their money. Let the Maoris return th 6 money to the Europeans, and the Europeans would return the land to the Maoris. If the Maoris had parted with their land it was by their own wish and consent. With regard to the land under the sea the Treaty of Waitangi gave the Queen the sovereignty to high-water-mark. The land under the sea belonged to the Queen, not for her own use, but for the benefit of the community at large. Major Kemp alluded to the Auckland Wharf, but was it not for the use of all ?

Paul said it had not been inserted in the treaty that the Queen owned the land under the sea. That might be very well from the pakeha's point of view, bub not from the Maori's. There was also nothingill the treaty about native land courts, nor about commissions to look after native land. Were not those breaches of the treaty '/ Sir Fkkijkkick Whitakkk said Unit these things were not in the treaty, but they had not been forced on the natives.

When Sir Frederick Whitaker concluded, Sydney Taiwhanga, who had been industriously making notes all the time, tried to gain a hearing, but Sir Frederick Whitakkk again rose, and said that when they commenced this meeting lie had understood that Paul and Major Kemp were to be the spokesmen on the part of the Maoris, while Mr. Mitchelson and himself were to speak for the Government. As these speakers had nothing more to say, the meeting was concluded as far as the Government were concerned. He had, therefore, pleasure in wishing them all a very good afternoon. Upon this, all the Ministerial party left the meeting and went back to Auckland.

Mr. J. A. Coknell, aided by Mr. Brown,, who acted as his interpreter, then began to ! address the meeting. Sydney Taiwnanga seemed very jealous at this, and after getting the bell rung vigorously, managed to induce a large number of natives to follow him to the runanga house, where he held

forth for some two hours, in opposition to Mr. Connell.

Mr. Connki.iL had an audience of about 20, both natives and Europeans. He told them he had always taken a groat interest in the question of native lands, and had found it a very difficult one. He advised them to follow Tawhiao's advice and not act hurriedly. " If," he said, " You try by bills or anything else to go against the laws of God, you will inevitably make a mess of it." The great failing of European legislation for natives was that they were trying to alter the native race too quickly, and instead of civilising them they only destroyed them. "To show you this," he said, "I will tell you something that will interest you about my own ancestors. At the time Jesus Christ came into the islands of England, Scotland, and Ireland were inhabited by my forefathers. These consisted of the Kelts and Britons. The Kelts worshipped idols, they knew nothing about the true God." He then detailed how the' Teutons had come over and conquered the Britons, and how the Teutons were "cruel and barbarous to a degree," and had come oyer in " great big war canoes," and how they used to drink " waipiro" made from honey out of skulls with many other edifying details. Christianity Jiad reformed them, however, and it was to their deep knowledge of Christianity that the success of the English was due. We had taken some 1400 years to become civilised, but we were trying to civilise the Maoris, who were very like our ancestors, at once. He then wont on to speak at considerable length about tho good qualities of the Maoris and other matters. He also referral to the good these native meetings would do, and the influence they would have on the thoughts of tho Europeans. The meetings of the Maoris were sufficient to show that they had real grievances, but large meetings like tho present were not the proper machinery for devising remedies for the grievances. These remedies were only to be found by careful search by wise men. He had himself a way to propose to them of going about this business. He had prepared four resolutions to submit to this meeting of chiefs, as foilows : —(1) "That in the opinion of this meeting the existing laws affecting the Maori race, are in themselves inappropriate and in their operation unsatisfactory to the native population of New Zealand, and this in a special manner as regards the law affecting the tenure, sale, or other disposal of native lands. 2. That provision should be made by law whereby all questions, including offences affecting natives only, and all rights as between tho several members of native communities should be adjudicated upon by tribunals composed of natives only; oxcept possibly as regards any superior tribunal or tribunals presided over by European magistrates. 3. As regards criminal offences, civil questions, and all civil rights as between a native or natives and Euro|*saus, this meeting is of opinion that the native race would be content that all such matters shall bo determined by the ordinary civil and criminal courts of the colony in accordance with the general laws of the colony. 4. That this meeting respectfully recommends to the Government that a Royal Commission may be speedily appointed to take the whole question into consideration, and to report ; and that such commission he requested to contrive a Bill or Bill to be presented to Parliament embodying these recommendations." If ever he got into Parliament, he would endeavour to give tho natives absolute selfgovernment among themselves, He then touched on the religious belief of the Maoris, and gave at length some rather original views on the matter. In five or six generations ho was not sure that we would not have Maori men superior to (he Europeans. One reason for thinking so was that the religious idea was higher in the Maori than the European, and the greatest force in the world was the fear of God. Referring to the advice lie had been giving the natives, he said he was not speaking out of opposition to the Government. The present' Government was one of the very best they had ever had for very many years. Be was a strong supporter of the present Government. Coining to the resolutions again, ho said he had laid them before the meeting. lie would have them translated into Maori and circulated among them. He hoped they would consider them well(applause)and would send them up to the other meetings to be held in the Waikato, and ask for an expression of opinion on them. If they could only got the Government to attend to the fourth resolution it, would he a very great result, for this meeting. He concluded by heartily thanking Paul and the Maoris of the settlement on behalf of himself and other visitors for the very hospitable and generous manner in which they had been treated that day. (Loud applause.) Hkta Takawiiiti, in the name of the natives present thanked Mr. Connell for his address, and stated that they understood thoroughly all that he had said, and opproved of it, and that they had never hoard any person speak oil Maori questions like this before. lie believed Mr. Council was a true friend of the Maori race. Another leading chief followed in the same strain, after which the meeting broke up. Afterwards Mr. Council received a message from Major Kemp to meet a number of the leading chiefs in the ruminga house, where Mr. Connell had a private conference wit about twelve of the leading chiefs, which lasted till the call for tho evening meal was sounded.